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If this game fails, so does the MMORPG Genre. This is our last hope.

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  • VxarVxar Member Posts: 58

    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Please note; I did not read the actual post, I only read the title.



    That's silly. If SW:ToR fails, it will only prove that Bioware shouldn't make an mmorpg, or that you shouldn't make a primarily themepark Star Wars mmorpg. There's are several other mmorpg coming out in the near future that can show that mmorpg is a very viable gaming genre.



    Prime: Battle for Dominus - could be a great hit in the sandbox sub-genre.

    The Secret World - could be a great hit in the non-linear ARPG/themepark sub-genre.

    Rift - already a hit in the straight up classic themepark sub-genre.

    Defiance - could be a great hit in the mmofps sub-genre (though the Scyfy tie-in both worries and excites me a little bit).

    There is plenty of hope out there if you want to see it.

    I believe the OP's point of view is that with how much money is being invested in this game, and being the Star Wars IP...if it flops, publishers may start pulling their money out of MMO projects in the future, with the frame of mind, "If SWTOR couldn't make it with everything they had at their disposal...why bother?"

     

    While I agree to an extent, I do not believe the MMO industry would fall back to the 1998-2002 days when only a certain crowd really played them, before they went mainstream.  I could see some publishers start putting their money elsewhere though (out of the MMO industry), and hopefully relieve us of all of the constant MMO flops over the past 5-6 years.

    On the other hand, it could be a wake up call that if publishers want to tap into the MMO genre, they need to actually revolutionize it and not use the standard cookie-cutter model while changing X amount of lines of lore and adding Y number of classes more than the next game offers.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by Malickie


    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick


    Originally posted by Creslin321



    On the other hand, if SWTOR falls on its face AND the other games in the industry do poorly, investors will see that the market is shrinking and back off.  Industry perspective here.  Looking at one product is like tunnelvision.

    Also, I think you are being a bit prejudiced about GW2.  Why do you think it's not going to have as big a fan base as SWTOR?  There seems to be a misguided belief that GW2 is somehow going to only appeal to a niche of people.  I really see no evidence of this.

    I've seen two polls on this site asking "what game are you most hyped for" and in each case, GW2 was the top choice.  Also, Guild Wars sold over 6 million boxes (including all campaigns, so over 1 million players).  GW2 will appeal to an even broader demographic.  That doesn't sound like a "niche" audience to me.  

    In addition to that, SWTOR won't appeal to ALL Star Wars fans.  It will appeal to Star Wars fans who happen to be PC gamers.  That's a much smaller demo than "all Star Wars fans."  With all this said...I don't want SWTOR to fail.  I hope it's a good game.  But I wanted to dispel any notions that its failure will somehow "doom" the industry.  That's silly.

    Looking at one product i exactly what a lot of investors did when WoW became very popular. They looked at its success and its type of MMO gameplay design and decided, based on that one product, to go the route of WoW-styled themepark MMO's for years at a stretch.

    In fact, I can safely say that if WoW hadn't existed, themepark MMO's wouldn't have been as abundant as they are today and sandbox MMO's and other non-themepark MMO's wouldn't have ended up at the fringe as they are now.

     

    As for GW2 or SWTOR or AA: if any MMO can attract and keep millions of MMO gamers, naturally it'll get the attention of investors, that's simple logic.

    However, I can recall an article of a while back that a lot of investors and other gaming companies are watching SWTOR with more than the usual attention to see how it'll do. Why? For the simple reason that it'll be a testing ground because of its prominent game company, the big budget, a big publisher and one of the most important IP's, this specific combination of those 4 elements is what has the industry watching this title more than other MMO titles.

    I also remember in that article there were quite a few summations that TOR's success and/or failure could have a lasting impact on the genre's future. That's coming from actual devs at many large studios.

     Yeah, and here's one from Mark Jacobs stating that if WAR fails it could be very bad for the industry, which I think someone may have already posted in this thread, but here it is again:  http://onlinegamesareanichemarket.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/what-does-wars-success-or-failure-mean-for-the-mmorpg-market/.

    It was BS then and it's BS now.  It's all based on a lot of speculation and the belief that game X (substitute WAR or SWTOR) is somehow the only game with any real chance of success.  WAR failed pretty solidly and yet MMORPGs continue to be made and new MMORPG projects continue to be undertaken.

    SWTOR failing alone will not do much damage to the MMORPG market.  On the other hand, if SWTOR fails AND all the other big up and comers (GW2, AA, TSW, WoD) fail...then yeah that's very bad for the market/industry.

    LOL, like I didn't know that, I was there for AOC and WARs launch to.,I'm just saying it's a popular observation right now, that TOR holds some weight over the future of MMO's. I didn't say one way or another what I think of it.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Mordred1Mordred1 Member UncommonPosts: 84

    Funny I think just the opposite. I think the industry needs a major flop like if TOR fails so investors realize that you either create something original or don't even bother trying. I don't think the mmo genre will die all of a sudden, on the contrary, it is the future of gaming. But there are so many WoW clones in the market that we associate the genre with leveling, quests and raids.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Vxar

    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Please note; I did not read the actual post, I only read the title.

    That's silly. If SW:ToR fails, it will only prove that Bioware shouldn't make an mmorpg, or that you shouldn't make a primarily themepark Star Wars mmorpg. There's are several other mmorpg coming out in the near future that can show that mmorpg is a very viable gaming genre.

    Prime: Battle for Dominus - could be a great hit in the sandbox sub-genre.
    The Secret World - could be a great hit in the non-linear ARPG/themepark sub-genre.
    Rift - already a hit in the straight up classic themepark sub-genre.
    Defiance - could be a great hit in the mmofps sub-genre (though the Scyfy tie-in both worries and excites me a little bit).
    There is plenty of hope out there if you want to see it.

    I believe the OP's point of view is that with how much money is being invested in this game, and being the Star Wars IP...if it flops, publishers may start pulling their money out of MMO projects in the future, with the frame of mind, "If SWTOR couldn't make it with everything they had at their disposal...why bother?"
     
    While I agree to an extent, I do not believe the MMO industry would fall back to the 1998-2002 days when only a certain crowd really played them, before they went mainstream.  I could see some publishers start putting their money elsewhere though (out of the MMO industry), and hopefully relieve us of all of the constant MMO flops over the past 5-6 years.
    On the other hand, it could be a wake up call that if publishers want to tap into the MMO genre, they need to actually revolutionize it and not use the standard cookie-cutter model while changing X amount of lines of lore and adding Y number of classes more than the next game offers.



    The people who would invest in something where you spent $20 Million+ are going to look at what Succeeds and what Fails. They aren't going to look at one failure and panic. Not all of them anyway. Keep in mind they are going to look at it from a financial point of view, not necessarily from an mmorpg player point of view. They don't care if it only has a major playerbase for 6 months, if it more than doubles their investment in that time frame.

    Bioware is spending a LOT of money on SW:ToR. It might flop. But that doesn't mean all mmorpg are flops. It just means, in the specific case of SW:ToR, you shouldn't do what they did. That may mean only spend $50 Million instead of $100 Million or more. It might mean don't waste money on a bunch of voice actors. It's not nearly as simple as 'do not invest in mmorpg at all'.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by Malickie

    I also remember in that article there were quite a few summations that TOR's success and/or failure could have a lasting impact on the genre's future. That's coming from actual devs at many large studios.

     Yeah, and here's one from Mark Jacobs stating that if WAR fails it could be very bad for the industry (snips)

    It was BS then and it's BS now.  It's all based on a lot of speculation and the belief that game X (substitute WAR or SWTOR) is somehow the only game with any real chance of success.  WAR failed pretty solidly and yet MMORPGs continue to be made and new MMORPG projects continue to be undertaken.

    The difference is that in the case of WAR it was Mark Jacobs, game director of Warhammer Online, saying it, while in the case of SWTOR it was a wide range of various game companies, analysts and investers. It might mean BS to you, but I'm pretty sure it isn't BS to those people, especially since millions and millions of invested dollars and years of development and resource allocation are involved.

     


    Originally posted by Normike

    "Three MMOs for the Hardcore Gamer-kings under the sky,

    Seven for the MMO fans in their halls of stone,

    Nine for the Casual Gamer doomed to try try try,

    One for the MMO god on his dark throne

    In the Land of MMO where gankers lie.

    One MMO to rule them all, One MMO to find them,

    One MMO to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

    In the Land of MMO where gankers lie."

     

    image

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • RuinalRuinal Member Posts: 195

    If I ever won £100mil+ on the eurolotto, I'd be very tempted to spend £80mil on an mmo, regardless of success or failure of any others. I really think a mechwarrior mmo of some description needs to happen ;p

  • KillyoxKillyox Member CommonPosts: 424

    Lol @OP, ever heard of GW2?

    If swtor fails then it fails although i doubt it since it's SW and polish level is quite high judging by vids. Either way the game breaking new grounds for MMO is not swtor which has pretty used mechanics but gw2.

    Not a hater but that is how it is. If swtor fails it'll mean that setting is nothing if the game ain't good enough [look at WAR].

  • sloebersloeber Member UncommonPosts: 504

    lol...@ the OP.....there will always be another mmo :)

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270

    Its not the last hope of the MMORPG genre, its the last hope of the WoW clone.

    I hope it fails and shows game companies that we are tired of the same old shit, even if they put a Star Wars theme to it, and that they should try some innovation for a change.

  • KillyoxKillyox Member CommonPosts: 424

    Originally posted by Divion

    1. I keep hearing people saw "Big deal if SWTOR fails, we have GW2".

    - First off thats crap, GW isn't an MMORPG to begin with, it's an RPG with online elements, unless they are changing that fact in GW2, i ain't buy that.

    - 2nd off, the players of the GW franchise are not the -bulk- of the MMO consumer base, they are not even an MMO consumer, again, i ain't buying it.

     

    2. If not SWTOR then what? It will always be the same -- " hype that game, it fails, hype this game it fails", rinse repeat.. the industry will degrade into superficial titles that become money sinks for both consumer, and industry, open your eyes Vet MMO'ers are already quitting the genre in flocks for so many this is the last chance.

    *facepalm* clueless poster is clueless. GW2 is fully MMORPG game, you seem to live back in early 2000 and thinking of GW1.

     

    Seriously, droo that "know it all but not knowing anythign really" mentality and do some research before making such disastrous comment.

     

    tl;dr

    You have no idea what you're talking about - at all

  • KillyoxKillyox Member CommonPosts: 424

    Originally posted by grimm6th

    @OP[...]

    Now, GW1 may not have been an MMO, but Anet has had years to deal with figuring out how to get things working in an online game.  Additionally, Jeff Strain helped develop the game engine for both GW1 and 2.  maybe you should look up that name...

    I will make it easier for those who don't know Jeff Strain.

    "Jeff Strain is a game programmer and one of the three founders of ArenaNet. He served ArenaNet and NCsoft as the leader of the Art and Production teams and President of Product Development respectively. He was previously the lead programmer of Blizzard's MMORPG World of Warcraft; he also created the StarCraft campaign editor and worked on Diablo and Warcraft III. He is credited as a programmer and executive producer for Guild Wars."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Strain

     

    ANet has been founded by 3 blizzard guys :)

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,060
    Some of you people really crack me up. I'm not looking at this game like it is going to be the greatest thing ever or have any fanboi blinders on. I just think it looks like it will be fun to play and am willing to give it a shot. And really, save all the "great hope" talk for things that actually matter, like curing a disease.

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • DivionDivion Member UncommonPosts: 397

    Originally posted by nate1980

    I think what the OP means is that the genre will lose funding, because if SWTOR fails, most investors will no longer be interested in the MMORPG genre. You see, most investors want an investment that guarantees a return.

    SWTOR represents, possibly to our knowledge, the best conditions the genre can give. Star Wars is one of the largest IP's, spanning, books, toys, video games, board games, movies, and TV shows. The IP is way more popular than the Warcraft IP. The genre has also been stagnant for several years now. Also, Bioware is probably one of the most revered RPG developers. Combine that with the largest budget for a MMORPG ever, investors are probably looking at SWTOR's release with a lot of interest. If SWTOR succeeds, as the OP said, then WoW wasn't a fluke and the genre is still worth investing in. If SWTOR fails, then investors will think that the genre is too risky for an investment. After all, what hope can other developers have in succeeding if arguably the best RPG developer with a successful history of making RPG games, with the size of the budget they have, and the size of the IP's fanbase failed?

    There are many people responding to the OP without actually considering the implications of what I've said, and instead seem to be thrashing the OP in some hopes of gaining rep with other MMORPG.COM posters.

    Edit: I almost forgot. If a game that has one of the best RPG developers making it, the largest budget afforded to it, and possibly one of the largest IP's ever thought of being made into a MMO fails, do you think investors will be more likely or less likely to invest in MMORPG's.

    If you think they'll be less likely, which I think is the logical conclusion, don't you agree that the genre will see less AAA well polished MMORPG's made, and instead if any, will only see Indy games made? That's what I think will happen, but that doesn't exactly mean that's a bad thing. I did like the genre more when it was smaller and the community only consisted of players who liked gaming (ie. likes to think ), liked socializing in that game, and preferred to work with other players than play alone.


    It's amazing isn't it?


    Over 200 replies, and you are the ONLY one who seems to understand where my thoughts are.


    I'll admit the failure lies in the way i laid out my premise; I clearly didn't articulate my thoughts in the right manner for all to follow. I shoulda considered who would be reading this.


     


    This game represents the most attractive investment to date in the MMORPG Genre, furthermore it's the first time BioWare is dipping into the fickle waters of MMORPGDOM.


     


    Consider that Pre-WoW MMORPG Era games were apart of a fringe market of gaming, few even known of us.


    1 game changed all that, WoW.


     


    And according to what i consider to be reasonable conditions we are standing at moment that 1 game could change the way the world, and companies view the MMORPG market - Again, If WoW alone could change it, why couldn't SWTORO? --


     


    What will happen? I don't know for sure, I’m just saying there is a chance we could return to our status as a Fringe Genre because companies may start to think the success Blizzard enjoys/ed was a fluke and is not repeatable.


     


    If you HONESTILY think the industry has been flooded with titles for any reason other than companies attempting to copy Blizzard's success then you don't know anything about business, or you are just trolling.

     


    The last 6 years “MMORPG” has been a gold rush to gaming developers.


     


    There will always be money to be made from MMORPGS, just like their will always be money to be mad from Flight/City/Empire Simulators, but does that mean the genre will continue to exemplify itself as a lucrative investment to the big budget hitters? No – and what the means for us, the player – is simplify that this gold rush, or golden era of the MMORPG will end, and we will return to the days of fringe MMO’s.

                  

    image

  • MeowheadMeowhead Member UncommonPosts: 3,716

    Originally posted by Divion




    It's amazing isn't it?


    Over 200 replies, and you are the ONLY one who seems to understand where my thoughts are.


    I'll admit the failure lies in the way i laid out my premise; I clearly didn't articulate my thoughts in the right manner for all to follow. I shoulda considered who would be reading this.

                  

    Yeah.  The problem is probably you.  If it takes over 200 posts for somebody to get where you're coming from, maybe you're coming from a crazy place.

    That's about the rate of posts it takes to find somebody who agrees that the Earth is flat, for example.  :)

    Your paragraph was pretty good up until the last sentence, at which point in time you try performing a little bit of judo '... but it isn't REALLY my fault, it's all you guys fault, for not being AWESOME enough to handle me'

    ... or maybe it's just most people aren't so much of drama queens.  Your topic name alone is kind of embarrassing. :(  Restraint and better writing will go a long way towards making people not treat you like you're crazy.

  • WrenderWrender Member Posts: 1,386

    Ok looks like OP hasnt responded since someone directed him to look into GW2. Perhaps he his choking on his words?

  • seabeastseabeast Member Posts: 748

    Help me Obiwan, your our only hope....Riight.

  • EtherougeEtherouge Member Posts: 514

    Originally posted by Wrender

    Ok looks like OP hasnt responded since someone directed him to look into GW2. Perhaps he his choking on his words?

    I think so.

  • luro16luro16 Member Posts: 86

    This idea that GW2 is going to save mmos, or do as well as wow is silly fanboy muttering.

    GW2 will in no way cvompete with wow or TOR, it will not have as much content, as frequent updates, as much advertising, because it doesn't draw in as much money because it doesn't have a sub fee AND it isn't being put out by EA or Activision.

    It doesn't matter if it is a better game, it doesn't matter if you come too mmorpg and tell people it's better, it doesn't have Star Wars in it's name, it doesn't have EA pushing it with the stated intention of competiting with WoW, it will do nothing for the genre as a whole.

    And feel free to tell me how wrong i am, i will simply wait until it comes out and sells the same as Rift, and then drops off into a niche game.

     

  • ArezonArezon Member UncommonPosts: 282

    Last hope.... yeah right lol

    The genre will survival no matter how TOR is received... with thunderous applause or a silent fart. If it fails, that means people are tired of WoW clones :D Not that TOR is a WoW clone, right?

    Anyway, I'm eager to blast womp rats with my AK-47 come Christmas time.... wait, is that right?

    See you in-game :)

    image

  • DestryrDestryr Member Posts: 43

    I'm just tired of trying to read these forums just to hear that it is a WoW clone... I'm pretty sure this is not the case. Even since the game is not released... Oh Gw2 is probably gonna be just fine. There are reasons why people get paid for creative ideas

  • RaxeonRaxeon Member UncommonPosts: 2,250

    what about www.primeonline.com. or wait maybe companys need to stop copying the wow formula

  • MeowheadMeowhead Member UncommonPosts: 3,716

    Originally posted by luro16

    This idea that GW2 is going to save mmos, or do as well as wow is silly fanboy muttering.

    GW2 will in no way cvompete with wow or TOR, it will not have as much content, as frequent updates, as much advertising, because it doesn't draw in as much money because it doesn't have a sub fee AND it isn't being put out by EA or Activision.

    It doesn't matter if it is a better game, it doesn't matter if you come too mmorpg and tell people it's better, it doesn't have Star Wars in it's name, it doesn't have EA pushing it with the stated intention of competiting with WoW, it will do nothing for the genre as a whole.

    And feel free to tell me how wrong i am, i will simply wait until it comes out and sells the same as Rift, and then drops off into a niche game.

     

    1.  WoW wasn't put out by Activision either.  Just saying.

    2.  NCSoft is one of the biggest MMO publishers around.  Aion is more profitable than almost any MMORPG that isn't WoW.

    3.  Having Star Wars in the name didn't save SWG.

    4.  Having a big IP and the backing of EA didn't save Warhammer Online.

    5.  Of course GW2 will compete on some level with WoW and TOR.  It's an MMORPG, it's got a lot of funding behind it.  People only have so much money/time to spend.  They're all going for the 'MMO you waste a lot of time on' niche, so they're all natural competitors.

    6.  I'm not saying 'Oh my god you're wrong, GW2 is going to be the biggest thing ever', I'm just saying that your conclusions are being derived from faulty evidence.  This isn't a 'GW2 is going to sell better than anything!' post, this is a 'The reasoning you're using to reach your conclusion is extremely faulty' post.

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin Member Posts: 3,033

    Originally posted by Divion


     


    Blizzard

    I think that about sums-up World of Warcrafts' success.  Blizzard, as opposed to the game in and of itself. 

     

    Having said that, Bioware will succeed as well, and so will ArenaNet.  This genre doesn't need saving, it's alive and kicking, and will continue to succeed.  Now, depending on ones' subjective definition of success, is another story as well.

  • gkb3469gkb3469 Member UncommonPosts: 148

    IF this game fails no one will care and move on. MMOs will still be amde because there is money to be made. End of story.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    I think it's a matter of any failure in the genre is a failure for the genre.  That doesn't mean the genre goes poof, it just means there will be a few less investing in it. WIth every new failure the "not investing" list grows. Sure we'll still have GW2, AA, Tera, TSW etc... to look forward to. However the same goes for those games, if they in turn fail again that list grows.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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