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Next Gen MMORPG.. Combat only, do you play to relax or play for a challenge?

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  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,227

    Originally posted by PTED

     




    Originally posted by Eronakis

    In my current next gen mmo design, my mechanics are more challenging.




    Could you elaborate more on this? Using words like Relax and Challenge are very context-sensitive.

    For example, playing an FPS can be challenging as you have to be aware of your surroundings in order to survive / not be caught in cross-fire. On the other hand, the control scheme for an FPS is incredibly relaxing (from a comfort perspective), more so if you're using a gamepad/controller.

    With MMO's, those which require you to effectively manage your UI can be challenging in terms of micromanagement. However, if you find a certain combination of skills and create a routine, it's incredibly relaxing / easy as you aren't paying attention to the UI as much.

    ---

    In answer to your question though; the way you play the game (the controls) should be relaxing, but the gameplay/opposition challenging.

    Challenge to me simply means that you have to out think a situation. A player has to become a tactician, doesn't matter on the class, each class will be tactiful in their own way. And how is this done? The combat mechanics are a separate entity of the class mechanics in which the class mechanics complement the combat mechanics. Why? Because I am trying to attempt to create a more brilliant AI system where a player and/or a mob will adapt to strategy. This does not mean it's twitched based combat, because players may have a faster reaction as opposed to other players.

     

    Here's an example. If a player melee character fights a kolbold, more than likely based on thier intelligence, and militaristic training that creature would more than likely not adapt or detect a strategy of a player. If a melee character fights a orc general, then more than likely that character will be challenged immensenly because that orc general has a very high intelligent and militaristic modifiers in order to adapt and detect your strategy.

     

    In your last comment, I do agree 100% with that. Controls should be fluid and not tedious. With the complex designs I have, I will provide multiple control styles for players. I will only allow a player to have up to one hot bar with 20 abilities on it. I feelas if limiting the hot bar would provide a more strategic challenge. A player can make hot bar sets in which can be loaded for situational purposes.

     

    I hope that answers your question.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,634

    Originally posted by Sulaa

    Challenge.

     

    But don't get me wrong. It does not mean I like overscripted raids where everything is so "tight" that one step by one player can wipe whole raid.

    "this".

    Players should have the chance to think and adapt.

    Not just memorize encounters.

    As for combat, I'm i the middle. Sometimes I want it to be challenging and sometimes I like to relax in the movements of the character.

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Originally posted by Sulaa

    What is currently wrong is that mobs especially in open world are way to (sic) weak.

    It's part of the inherent problems with class design and attempts to make your game solo-able from beginning to end.

    In most games, healer-types don't put out a lot of DPS, and DPS-types are megabombs.  In order to make everything soloable, it has to be designed for the most gimp damage output, the weakest combat-capable archetype.

    It's pretty much impossible to design open world content that's equally soloable by the weaker toons without making it all-too-easy for the combat monster toons.

    Well that's true what you say, but actually it goes even further lately. For example let's take Lotro as example a themepark, at beggining Minstrel (one of 2 main healer class) hardly could do anything else beside healing, dps output was very low.

    Currently (well at least like 6 weeks ago when I stopped playing Lotro) Minstrel class of course still was main healing class , but at same time was preety good buffer and attention attention had very good burst dps. Same with both tanks classes they have very good burst dps, main buffer/supprt class had it heals buffed so much that some big instances can be done with him as healer ,etc

    So not only normal mobs gets weaker but at same time classes transform in multi-role making it even easier.

    Well I don't really care if game has holy-trinity or multi-class or something entirelly diffrent , but result in nowadays mmorpg's is open world content is laughably easy for ALL classes.

    I could actually do group quests over my level solo with healer in Lotro while levelling. And this was my second character in Lotro an alt after I was playing my first character tank and I never played healer in any mmo before so you can imagine how not used I was to play as healer.

    Which on one hand potentialy make game more accesible to broader audience and on the other hand make people bored faster and imho is one of main factors that make people play mmos for a shorter time and retention rate lower.

     

    This is because game seem accesible and stress free at beggining on your first levels on first character but then on higher levels or/and alts it's get boring even for those "relatively-new players". Because it's gets boring , there is QQ to make levelling faster , and becasue ppl want it faster they want everything solo becasue :

    a) finding group takes time

    b) because levelling is so fast it is hard to find similar levelled people which make finding people / group evven harder

     

    People run through levelling and then hit end game becasue they "came" 'end game' fast developers need make them occupied. So that's where mechanism like dalies/weeklies limits come into play , followed with having to do tier 1 -> tier 2 -> tier 3.

    Then is start feeling like a work.

    People then start hopping between mmos (spending short time in each) or came back to WoW because of big population there are always people they now , lot of content and basically same thing than in other games.

     

    I doubt that we'll see again a game like WoW again dominating other games so much. I think that we'll rather have 2-3 big games not just one.

    Hopefully that will change something.

     

    Currently developers are struggling to keep people play/subscribe for long time and to make retention rate high.

    They "cannot" make game more challenging and group-oriented becasue they can lose population but at same time people tend to stick shorter in a game because it start to feel like a) work or/and b) graphical chat with "mission rooms" (aka instances).

     

    Well I am looking at all of this from me myself as agamer point of view , which is no brainer:

    I definately want MORE challenge but more challenge in open world not another tier in instance not super-hard-modes in instances not even more scripted events in fight to make it more prone to player mistakes.

     

    Uff sorry for venting and this text spam :p

     

    EDIT: I don't want game for hardcores. I am far from that. I myself hate ridiculosely hard raids/instnaces where you wipe constantly.  But open world gameplay really was so ridiculed it is not even funny anymore. I want some kind of "golden middle" approach.

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Member UncommonPosts: 4,641

     

    Both.  No hesitation in saying so either.  In my opinion, if a game doesn't allow for both then it's not a very well-rounded game which makes it more FPS than MMO or more adventure game than MMO. Those other genres already exist. Part of what makes MMOs different is their tendency to have a LOT of options for the player and BE well-balanced in gameplay.  Just my opinion.

     

    From what the posters in this thread WROTE, it appears that a lot of them that ANSWERED "challenge" actually go on to explain that they want both, so....I'm not sure how accurate the results will end up. /shrug

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • yewsefyewsef Member CommonPosts: 335

    I didn't vote because I don't like the "relax" part.

    Define relax and define challenge.

     

    For sure I can tell you that I don't play MMORPGs to play the whack-a-mole game. You know that invention when something in your action bar blinks and you have to click it within 2 seconds? You know? That game? Whack-a-mole? Why are we playing MMORPG again? I missed the point really.

     

    Twitchy and reactive action bar DOES NOT MEAN CHALLENGE. In the contrary if it means something it means a retarded MMORPG designer was here.

     

    MMORPGs are not about mini-gaming your to death with button-mashing or testing your reflexes. I play other games which require a lot of APM (Action Per Minute) but in these games it make sense. In an MMROPG combat should be about Team Play, Cooperation, Playing your Role in a group, Adventure, Role Playing, Being your character. Playing whack-a-mole mini game is definitely not part of this.

     

    I'm with a more strategic/tactical game approach. Where you have limited and depleting resources that you must use wisely to over come your enemies in combat. I don't want to be occupied with buttons and the action bar, I want to play the game and be in the world and not watching my Action Bar 90% of the time. I want to chat with my group members, communicate with them. I need to have a break to Role Play and Look around for a change for goodness' sake.

  • CastillleCastillle Member UncommonPosts: 2,679

    Haiiii just1opinioonnn~~ ^__^

    On topic :

    Anyways just to say my point again (in case it seems like I was saying both)

    Umm...

    Combat = Challenging/engaging/requires more thought

    Other types of content that ISNT combat = relaxing. 

    Also, what eronkis describes as challenge is pretty much tactic hevy combat kind of like what Yew was describing. 

     

    Also judging from Eronakis older topics Ill hefta say

    Challenge = tactics heavy

    Relaxed = Much simpler easy to grasp kind where you can pretty much turn your mind off.

    Feel free to correct me if I mistook nything though. 

    ''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
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  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495

    If by challenging you mean first person shooter combat, then no.

    Otherwise, it would depend on the actual combat mechanics.

    I can't decide if they would be fun on not just based on the statement they would be "challenging".

    image

  • cesar014cesar014 Member Posts: 3

    Just my ¢2.

    Typically the games I enjoy are the games that involve me thinking while I'm playing. Also the games that are most memorable and enjoyable are games that have things besides just mindless combat and mindless pointless crafting. Please for the love of god tell me why I’m going to go out of my way to make a level 10 weapon when the level cap is 60? I'll never buy it while leveling cause that involves me leaving the field to go to an AH and waste my little leveling gold on something I’ll get from a quest I'd bet less than 0.01% of a server would ever buy that item. (just a single wtf from most popular games) There are always ways to make your game seem more involving and lively without making it grinding and it just might taking thinking out side the normal box.

    But back to the point which is "Combat only"  and just my opinion. I find that if you want a popular game then make it mindless and simple, and if you want a thinking game then you are going to have a much smaller player base. Now of course "mindless" and "thinking" varies significantly from person to person so you'll have to apply that appropriately.

  • Plus_OnePlus_One Member Posts: 47

    I like a challenge but in a cerebral not carpal-tunnel fashion.

    In that I like using strategy, position, and knowledge of my enemy to properly choose my attacks.  I'm not a big fan of the twitch aspects though.  When i play an MMO i like combat that feels more like a Chess match than playing Street Fighter.  But that's just my preffered playstyle.  

  • sazabisazabi Member UncommonPosts: 389

    funny how majority chose anything, but the 'relaxation' option.

    what mmos do you play? eve, darkfall etc?

    or wow, rift etc?

    if you are playing the later... why are you lieing to yourself. there is zero challenge in those.

  • KygzabKygzab Member Posts: 2

    I'd really like turn-based or some semi-turn-based variation of combat. I'd love to play a MMORPG, that keeps brain active, but lets you think for a while. Real-time action combat is way over-rated for MMORPG's, in my opinion. Wouldn't it be cool, that there would be area on the game forum devoted for discussing about different strategies in-depth? I don't understand why the indie devs have been so into FPS and RTS styles of gameplay lately.

  • EladiEladi Member UncommonPosts: 1,125

    I prefer games were I have to pay attention and have to think atleast a little, that is relaxing to me, the whole idea for playing a mmo to me has two reasons, one to socialize whit people, and the other to get my mind of the daily routine we face ..daily.

    give me a ultra simple system and my mind tend to wander to back to reality and that removes the destress value a game has, if a gmae however becomes fustrating then I consider that as a game mechanical / design flaw, not a "to hard for me " mechanic and I probaly end up removing that game from my harddrive as being fustraded and stressed is the thing i do not expect from a game were i seek to abandon those.

  • TerranahTerranah Member UncommonPosts: 3,575

    PVP Combat should have a challenging component to it.  However, crappy UI, and clunky or sluggish controls interfere with my enjoyment.  Needless complexity or stupid key combo bullshit is not fun for me. 

     

    When I used to play old style Quake games, there were very challenging, and some of those experiences where I was victorious were amazing.  But as challenging and fun as those experiences were, the interface was extremely simple and the controls responsive, crisp and uncluttered.

     

    PVE combat though is something different.  While it should have an element of challenge, if I have to kill 1000 boars to level and it takes me 3 minutes to kill each boar....well....no thank you.

     

     

  • psyclumpsyclum Member Posts: 792

    I play the next gen MMORPG to "relax" because i enjoy tactical thinking, large scale coordination, and the adrenalin rush that comes with killing an unkillable mob:D

    I guess it never occured to you that adrenalin junkies find stress enjoyable?

  • RevivialRevivial Member Posts: 194

    Originally posted by psyclum

    I play the next gen MMORPG to "relax" because i enjoy tactical thinking, large scale coordination, and the adrenalin rush that comes with killing an unkillable mob:D

    I guess it never occured to you that adrenalin junkies find stress enjoyable?

    Question is, if we aren't born with instincts what happened in your life that taught your brain to enjoy stress?

    For me, variety is the spice of life.  I have different games i play to fulfill different moods i'm in. 

    If one game could fill all those needs, i could play one game and be happy.

    "I swear -- by my life and my love for it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
    - John Galt

  • HenchdwarfHenchdwarf Member UncommonPosts: 517

    in my perfect mmo, i would prefer to organize with like minded players, relax while gathering and crafting and developing our characters/town/local economy,  then go berserk and fight like hell when we declare war (or are invaded) by another guild. 

     

      ive always liked that sleepy middle ages realism paired with open heavy-consequence GvG pvp.

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Member UncommonPosts: 4,641

    Originally posted by Castillle

    Haiiii just1opinioonnn~~ ^__^

    On topic :

    Anyways just to say my point again (in case it seems like I was saying both)

    Umm...

    Combat = Challenging/engaging/requires more thought

    Other types of content that ISNT combat = relaxing. 

    Also, what eronkis describes as challenge is pretty much tactic hevy combat kind of like what Yew was describing. 

     

    Also judging from Eronakis older topics Ill hefta say

    Challenge = tactics heavy

    Relaxed = Much simpler easy to grasp kind where you can pretty much turn your mind off.

    Feel free to correct me if I mistook nything though. 

     

    Yeah, I somehow missed where the OP said "combat only."  But an MMO is much more than just combat. I want challenge AND relaxation from a game.  And as far as combat goes.....when I'm in the mood to be doing combat, then combat IS relaxing (and hopefully challenging) provided it's not clumsy, the AI doesn't suck, and various other things that can get in the way of it being FUN.

     

    Whether challenging or relaxing.....I want FUN.  I want to have to use my brain. If the developers make a game that caters DOWN to me as if I'm a five year old child....I'm not going to be having fun.

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • psyclumpsyclum Member Posts: 792

    Originally posted by Revivial

    Question is, if we aren't born with instincts what happened in your life that taught your brain to enjoy stress?

    For me, variety is the spice of life.  I have different games i play to fulfill different moods i'm in. 

    If one game could fill all those needs, i could play one game and be happy.

    no, that was simply an example:)  here is what i REALLY mean by that post:D

    designers are so hung up on satisfying everyone they end up failing everyone.   what he should do is stick with a niche of players and go for it.   if he wants to build a "raid" oriented game, go for it.  the current MMO market is in need of a raid oriented game.  EQ was the last LARGE scale raid game.  if it wasnt for SoE screwing it up, it might still be a major contender for subscription dollars.  currently, the "hard game" genre within the MMO gamespace is underutilized.  everybody is building WoW clones with a different flavor (bouncing boobies, PvP focus with perma death/full item loot etc...)

    designers need to realize they cant satisfy EVERYBODY.  EvE went 1 direction even tho the market dictated another.  yet they are still around (tho the latest monocle problem may indicate that they are faultering to the pressures of the greed effect)  some people ENJOY farming, some people ENJOY pvp, some people ENJOY sitting in town and chatting up a storm with random strangers, and lastly some people ENJOY a nice long 6 hr raid with 72 of their closest personal friends that they love to strangle to death:D. 

    moral of the story, stop asking stupid questions like this and build the game YOU would want to play.  chances are there are other metahumans in the world who enjoy the same things you do. 

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247

    I play PVE to relax and PVP for the challenge. However, the challenge I want is in outthinking or outmaneuvering my opponent, not in trying to manage a complex combat system.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo Member UncommonPosts: 3,219

    I definitely like to be able to take a "time-out" in an mmo and "stand and stare" at times, simply because energy after a busy day dictates that, and it's nice to have a small amble in a virtual world once in a blue moon.

    But overall, I do want the MMORPGs of today and tomorrow to be "more challenging". Indeed, OP this is a simple but very good question to ask: There's a tendency in ppl to want to RELAX and there is another tendency that competes with that one to be CREATIVE, take risks and do something "orginal"... which requires above normal energy investment. Curling up with the tv, better half or mmo is very tempting but then it's often those times we're stretched and almost psyched perhaps eg: "perma-death narrow thrilling escape from certain death"... that we cherish such moments the most and likewise overcoming a challenge worthy of our skills in an mmorpg is the same: Some of the descriptions of DAOC or EvE players in such situations ring in my mmorgp memory the clearest and longest (unfortunetly I missed both games, but intend to correct that with EvE in the Fall).

  • tupodawg999tupodawg999 Member UncommonPosts: 724

    Week nights mostly relaxation.

    Weekends mostly challenge.

  • tupodawg999tupodawg999 Member UncommonPosts: 724

    I missed the combat only part.

     

    I'd like *some* combat to be challenging - in a group tactical way rather than button mashing - mainly achieved by having some groups of mobs better organised than others (complex AI). These would have better loot.

    I'd like *some* combat to be relatively relaxing e.g. deer, and things to do other than combat e.g. making armour out of deerskins, for when i'm not in the mood for a challenge.

     

    So have a dungeon full of tough, well-organised, complex AI scripted, Uruk-hai that are a challenge and outside the dungeon (could be same level) lightly equipped, solo wandering goblin hunters with a simple default AI. That way the game suits both moods.

  • caremuchlesscaremuchless Member Posts: 603

    Originally posted by Sulaa

    So imo:

    1.give mobs , especially those in open world more health and make them hit harder.

    2. Limit classes. Too often nowadays , classes can do everything with one class beign able to fill 3-4 roles.

     

    While I don't entirely disagree with adding more health and making mobs hit harder, without any deeper mob strategy, that is still boring.

     

    In the typical scenario,  I use my set of Rogue Skills to kill a mob (boring because its too easy rinse and repeat)

     

    and in your scenario I use the same skills, but the mob takes longer to kill and has a better chance of killing me which in the end means 1 of 2 things, I am either spending more time eating to heal up (boring) or running back to my corpse (boring)

     

     


    However, if mobs were more interesting to fight (like real players are in PvP) then that would require that I use different tactics to kill them. On top of that, make it more of a incentive to kill mobs (more xp)


     


    Maybe I have to pot to kill this one particular mob,


     


    Maybe I need to silence this particular mob at the right time


     


    Maybe I need to kite the mob


     


    Maybe the mob puts bleeds on you and sprints/vanishes to reopen on YOU again! 


     


    There ya go, interesting and a challenge. 


    And for heavens sake, dont make every mob do the same thing!


     

    image

  • BogeBoge Member Posts: 182

    If I want to relax, I'll lay in bed, watch TV, sit outside and watch the clouds.  I play video games for an entertaining challenge.  It's not work to me if it's entertaining.  Yes, I prefer my combat to keep me attentive and interacting.  I need it to be challenging otherwise it gets boring.

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