So instead of character progression through levels or skills. It would be content and rep?
There would have to be a large amount of classes to do that IMO. You could start with a tutorial that introduces you to your skills so you can learn them. Then the main game would have every player have the max skills and stats from the start. Then you could tackle to content in any order you wanted because it would all be the same difficulty. Plus or minus tactics and or puzzles of some kind.
I guess progression would be rep and titles along with social gear? You would have to have a lot of content for this to last for very long. I guess you could have the grind for rep, titles and social gear as the carrot. But I don't know if a lot of players would go for that. It is an interesting idea n stuff.
It wouldn't be the same difficulty. Just because you're given a set of skills doesn't mean you know how to use them. The content would still scale from beginner to expert, it's just that instead of levels and gear making harder content doable, it'll be purely based on player skill, cooperation, and tactics.
Also, reputation can be built into a game mechanic that affects your gameplay. It doesn't just have to be a title and gear. NPCs coudl react different and give you different quests based on your reputation/karma. Other players might have different methods of interacting with you depending on their reputation vs your reputation.
Reputation would be earned based on your in game decisions to key events, or just how you solve different quests or even what quests you decide to take. For example, let's say you get a quest to help a farmer get back his savings from a bandit. You can track down the bandit, then you can choose to kill him to get back the loot, intimidate him to get him to drop the loot and run, persuade him to turn himself in, or even report him to the town guards. Each would result you in getting the loot, and you can gain different types of faction/reputation.
Maybe you decide to keep the loot for yourself instead, and you can get negative reputation, which would make you essentially a criminal. Get enough negative reputation and you can become an outlaw, giving you access to the seedier parts of towns, allowing you to get high level criminal type quests. Become infamous enough and maybe town guards would put a bounty on your head, which essentially turns into a quest for the 'good' reputation players to try to track you down and turn you in.
There's so much more potential to MMORPGs than just grinding mobs and turning in fetch quests.
Originally posted by Sovrath I would. I don't care about getting better and better gear. As a matter of fact, most games don't really make sense. because all you are doing is getting better skills and better gear to then "graduate" to harder areas where you are just as powerful against your enemies as you were several levels ago. I'd rather actually "do" something rather than just get better gear for the sake of it. My thought is that there should be a low levelign curve and then you get gear based on what players make. Then you go out and do what you want in the world. You want to hunt monsters because you think it's fun? Go do it. You want to run a business and work on buying and seling? Go do it. You want to pvp and attack and hold land? Go do it!
Well...I know ppl who play muhmorpegs always go "ITS NOTHING WITHOUT PROGRESSSION!" or "MMOS=PROGRESSION!" or somefing similar so I just makey a poll o.o Would you play a mmog wif absoooolutely no character progression aside from new cute(or kewl) outfits to choose from n stuff~?
After playing through GTA IV I would say yes I would.
All 'progression' in conventiol MMOs is pretty much illusionary anyhow and really just acts as a long term barrier to play for new starters (which I would guess every MMO always wants). It is actually a really bad way to design long term persistant world games.
I would. I don't care about getting better and better gear.
As a matter of fact, most games don't really make sense. because all you are doing is getting better skills and better gear to then "graduate" to harder areas where you are just as powerful against your enemies as you were several levels ago.
I'd rather actually "do" something rather than just get better gear for the sake of it.
My thought is that there should be a low levelign curve and then you get gear based on what players make. Then you go out and do what you want in the world. You want to hunt monsters because you think it's fun? Go do it. You want to run a business and work on buying and seling? Go do it.
You want to pvp and attack and hold land? Go do it!
yes
if thi is the kind of progression that is meant by the OP then i agree with the response above.
why? because the only things that really change are the numbers, they get bigger. its not like your up against more difficult foes and you have lesser armor and abilities.
all that really happens in so many games is that your numbers and the numbers on the mobs and the numbers on the loot do one thing and one thing only: they go up.
now sometimes, just like grinding, this can just be fun to watch and participate in, but frankly thats all most games really are.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Character progression is what makes an RPG an RPG. Otherwise it'd just be an action adventure game.
I have to agree. If my character herself does not progress, then it really cuts into the RPG aspect for me. That's with an MMORPG. A plain old MMOG ...I don't usually play those, so I suppose maybe my answer would change if I was considering an MMOG. Blech. I don't know though. The character's personal progression is an important part of games to me. It's one of the reasons I love MMOs and specifically MMORPGs.
Yes I would, but it also depends on what you mean by "content progression". If they are just going to be adding raids every 2 months, then I couldn't care less. But if it was a sandbox open world pvp game like mortal online (a working polished one), and the content progression involved the slow implements of new crafts where we had to disocver the mats/ingredients/recipes/secrets our self, the introduction of new lands for conquest, new things to build, explore, conquere...thats is good content progression that would keep me involved in the game.
Yes I would, but it also depends on what you mean by "content progression". If they are just going to be adding raids every 2 months, then I couldn't care less. But if it was a sandbox open world pvp game like mortal online (a working polished one), and the content progression involved the slow implements of new crafts where we had to disocver the mats/ingredients/recipes/secrets our self, the introduction of new lands for conquest, new things to build, explore, conquere...thats is good content progression that would keep me involved in the game.
this is *exactly* the kind of content progression only game that i would play and frankly probably love.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I'm not overly fond of character progression to begin with and I like to harp on the value of non-linear progression(expanding available options and refinements to a player rather than clear enhancement of any baseline or stats).
Mostly I rather enjoy playing games. I don't like arbitrary barriers breaking the fun and would rather see viable challenges rather than constantly sizing up numbers against things and I see an elimination of leveling as a good solution to that.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I'm not overly fond of character progression to begin with and I like to harp on the value of non-linear progression(expanding available options and refinements to a player rather than clear enhancement of any baseline or stats).
Mostly I rather enjoy playing games. I don't like arbitrary barriers breaking the fun and would rather see viable challenges rather than constantly sizing up numbers against things and I see an elimination of leveling as a good solution to that.
I don't particularly see a game with "no levels" as not having character progression. There are other ways to measure the progress of your character. The Secret World is one of the games I am most looking forward to and it does not have levels, BUT...your character progresses nonetheless. Your skills become greater, you solve ancient puzzles and discover hidden secrets, etc.
So yes....I can play a game with no levels, but not one with no character progression. Just me.
I don't particularly see a game with "no levels" as not having character progression. There are other ways to measure the progress of your character. The Secret World is one of the games I am most looking forward to and it does not have levels, BUT...your character progresses nonetheless. Your skills become greater, you solve ancient puzzles and discover hidden secrets, etc.
So yes....I can play a game with no levels, but not one with no character progression. Just me.
Well I wasnt really talking about your characters skills being greater...But more like by you as a player is getting better.
And by content progression I mean things like doing following npc stories and helping them/foiling their plans, building a lil base for you and your buddies, run around protecting the world from zombies , learning about the world and the lore through actual gameplay instead of reading books, etc etc.
But even through all this, your characters stats and skills dont really improve or get better. You still have access to the same ones you got after leaving the tutorial and they dont get better (but you as a player get more used to them and use them better) n stuff.
OFc this doesnt really affect the collecting aspect n stuff and your character DOES get richer n stuff but it wont have much effect on you aside from moar stylishly awesome stuff.
So in the sense, you can have the "Solve ancient puzzles and discover ancient secrets" and the skills becoming greater is just you becoming a better player o.o
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
But anyways! I guess I could understand what the other ppl are saying about not having levels and skill ups n stuff being hard to manage since it technically wont be much of an RPG I guess...And will be more action adventurey or somefing o.o
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
I don't particularly see a game with "no levels" as not having character progression. There are other ways to measure the progress of your character. The Secret World is one of the games I am most looking forward to and it does not have levels, BUT...your character progresses nonetheless. Your skills become greater, you solve ancient puzzles and discover hidden secrets, etc.
So yes....I can play a game with no levels, but not one with no character progression. Just me.
Well I wasnt really talking about your characters skills being greater...But more like by you as a player is getting better.
And by content progression I mean things like doing following npc stories and helping them/foiling their plans, building a lil base for you and your buddies, run around protecting the world from zombies , learning about the world and the lore through actual gameplay instead of reading books, etc etc.
But even through all this, your characters stats and skills dont really improve or get better. You still have access to the same ones you got after leaving the tutorial and they dont get better (but you as a player get more used to them and use them better) n stuff.
OFc this doesnt really affect the collecting aspect n stuff and your character DOES get richer n stuff but it wont have much effect on you aside from moar stylishly awesome stuff.
So in the sense, you can have the "Solve ancient puzzles and discover ancient secrets" and the skills becoming greater is just you becoming a better player o.o
Progression whitout levels is as old as pc gaming itself, its only that every game switched to level /adding skill and item progression into games resulted in suplying a sertain chemical to the players brain resulting in players playing games longer.
take shooters, the first ones were great fun but still they aplyed the level mechanic to them these days, race games the same, sports games the same, about every gerne has progression of character these days, its someting very human , if you dont have someting, you will try to get it. even TSW will still have progression as players would be utterly lost these days whitout some direction or clear goal that gains them someting they can keep.
be it stats,be it cloths,be it a new weapon to use whitout progression of someting other then play skill a game would not tick the mind as much as one whit that does. player skill can be counted among it but player skill can only grow to a sertail limmed and no "casual" gamer likes to play a game were only the pro-gamers seem to get some fun out of it.
Well..Yah I did say you can get more style options and stuff from doing things and maybe titles or whatever but they WONT be gameplay affecting.
Basically the most you can progress is visual stuff or maybe custom animations, titles, sparkling pony or a monocle for an achievment n stuff like thaat o.o
So yah you get eye candy but you cant just go "oh you dont have x so you cant join us" or something like that. Instead it will be more like "do you know how to react to x enemies? " then people can just give advice n stuff o.o
As for Vyeths comment.
You do progess. As a player. Your char doesnt gain "levels" or any stats much or w/e. But you do get better at playing n stuff and you do progress through the content o.o So what you said is confuusing me >.<
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
Would you go to the gym if you couldn't improve your health and increase muscle strength? Progression drives motivation.. If we could not grow in anything, there would be less of a reason, less of a point to do such activity.. It's one of the few reasons I have grown so in love with MMORPG's..
I understand your point. I have tried to think of games with no progression, but OP did say there would be content progression...
It depends on what that means...there's new items, new spells, new vehicles, new territories, rise & fall of factions (wish we'd see that)
so it might work from a certain point of view.
_____________________________ "Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"
Well..Yah I did say you can get more style options and stuff from doing things and maybe titles or whatever but they WONT be gameplay affecting.
Basically the most you can progress is visual stuff or maybe custom animations, titles, sparkling pony or a monocle for an achievment n stuff like thaat o.o
So yah you get eye candy but you cant just go "oh you dont have x so you cant join us" or something like that. Instead it will be more like "do you know how to react to x enemies? " then people can just give advice n stuff o.o
As for Vyeths comment.
You do progess. As a player. Your char doesnt gain "levels" or any stats much or w/e. But you do get better at playing n stuff and you do progress through the content o.o So what you said is confuusing me >.<
Sorry I took it too literal.. I understand the argument about "If you do something enough you will get better at it", but that isn't always true.. But now that I understand your reasoning with content progression, you basically shifted the "levels" from the individual onto the actual setting or world, which is basically the same thing but in a different scale..
I think it would be pretty cool actually, if the actions and decisions of the players as a whole directly controlled and contributed to the change of their surroundings in both positive and negative ways. I would gladly exchange a personal character "level" for say some kind of global status.. I would gladly trade those puny experience points earned from slaying that dragon if I could visually SEE that I have saved a town of crafters from certain doom..
Comments
It wouldn't be the same difficulty. Just because you're given a set of skills doesn't mean you know how to use them. The content would still scale from beginner to expert, it's just that instead of levels and gear making harder content doable, it'll be purely based on player skill, cooperation, and tactics.
Also, reputation can be built into a game mechanic that affects your gameplay. It doesn't just have to be a title and gear. NPCs coudl react different and give you different quests based on your reputation/karma. Other players might have different methods of interacting with you depending on their reputation vs your reputation.
Reputation would be earned based on your in game decisions to key events, or just how you solve different quests or even what quests you decide to take. For example, let's say you get a quest to help a farmer get back his savings from a bandit. You can track down the bandit, then you can choose to kill him to get back the loot, intimidate him to get him to drop the loot and run, persuade him to turn himself in, or even report him to the town guards. Each would result you in getting the loot, and you can gain different types of faction/reputation.
Maybe you decide to keep the loot for yourself instead, and you can get negative reputation, which would make you essentially a criminal. Get enough negative reputation and you can become an outlaw, giving you access to the seedier parts of towns, allowing you to get high level criminal type quests. Become infamous enough and maybe town guards would put a bounty on your head, which essentially turns into a quest for the 'good' reputation players to try to track you down and turn you in.
There's so much more potential to MMORPGs than just grinding mobs and turning in fetch quests.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
After playing through GTA IV I would say yes I would.
All 'progression' in conventiol MMOs is pretty much illusionary anyhow and really just acts as a long term barrier to play for new starters (which I would guess every MMO always wants). It is actually a really bad way to design long term persistant world games.
It's time to move past that.
No
After playing a single-player game with a linear story-mode and a non-changing world I would disagree. Wait, what?
if thi is the kind of progression that is meant by the OP then i agree with the response above.
why? because the only things that really change are the numbers, they get bigger. its not like your up against more difficult foes and you have lesser armor and abilities.
all that really happens in so many games is that your numbers and the numbers on the mobs and the numbers on the loot do one thing and one thing only: they go up.
now sometimes, just like grinding, this can just be fun to watch and participate in, but frankly thats all most games really are.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I have to agree. If my character herself does not progress, then it really cuts into the RPG aspect for me.
That's with an MMORPG. A plain old MMOG ...I don't usually play those, so I suppose maybe my answer would change if I was considering an MMOG. Blech. I don't know though. The character's personal progression is an important part of games to me. It's one of the reasons I love MMOs and specifically MMORPGs.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Yes I would, but it also depends on what you mean by "content progression". If they are just going to be adding raids every 2 months, then I couldn't care less. But if it was a sandbox open world pvp game like mortal online (a working polished one), and the content progression involved the slow implements of new crafts where we had to disocver the mats/ingredients/recipes/secrets our self, the introduction of new lands for conquest, new things to build, explore, conquere...thats is good content progression that would keep me involved in the game.
this is *exactly* the kind of content progression only game that i would play and frankly probably love.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
No. I enjoy levelling far more than anything. When I reach max level, it's game over for me.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Yes.
I'm not overly fond of character progression to begin with and I like to harp on the value of non-linear progression(expanding available options and refinements to a player rather than clear enhancement of any baseline or stats).
Mostly I rather enjoy playing games. I don't like arbitrary barriers breaking the fun and would rather see viable challenges rather than constantly sizing up numbers against things and I see an elimination of leveling as a good solution to that.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I don't particularly see a game with "no levels" as not having character progression. There are other ways to measure the progress of your character. The Secret World is one of the games I am most looking forward to and it does not have levels, BUT...your character progresses nonetheless. Your skills become greater, you solve ancient puzzles and discover hidden secrets, etc.
So yes....I can play a game with no levels, but not one with no character progression. Just me.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Well I wasnt really talking about your characters skills being greater...But more like by you as a player is getting better.
And by content progression I mean things like doing following npc stories and helping them/foiling their plans, building a lil base for you and your buddies, run around protecting the world from zombies , learning about the world and the lore through actual gameplay instead of reading books, etc etc.
But even through all this, your characters stats and skills dont really improve or get better. You still have access to the same ones you got after leaving the tutorial and they dont get better (but you as a player get more used to them and use them better) n stuff.
OFc this doesnt really affect the collecting aspect n stuff and your character DOES get richer n stuff but it wont have much effect on you aside from moar stylishly awesome stuff.
So in the sense, you can have the "Solve ancient puzzles and discover ancient secrets" and the skills becoming greater is just you becoming a better player o.o
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
( o.o)
(")(")
**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
Yes, Bunny
I think I could play that.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
W00t yayyy!! Smart-Alek will play!
But anyways! I guess I could understand what the other ppl are saying about not having levels and skill ups n stuff being hard to manage since it technically wont be much of an RPG I guess...And will be more action adventurey or somefing o.o
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
( o.o)
(")(")
**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
Progression whitout levels is as old as pc gaming itself, its only that every game switched to level /adding skill and item progression into games resulted in suplying a sertain chemical to the players brain resulting in players playing games longer.
take shooters, the first ones were great fun but still they aplyed the level mechanic to them these days, race games the same, sports games the same, about every gerne has progression of character these days, its someting very human , if you dont have someting, you will try to get it. even TSW will still have progression as players would be utterly lost these days whitout some direction or clear goal that gains them someting they can keep.
be it stats,be it cloths,be it a new weapon to use whitout progression of someting other then play skill a game would not tick the mind as much as one whit that does. player skill can be counted among it but player skill can only grow to a sertail limmed and no "casual" gamer likes to play a game were only the pro-gamers seem to get some fun out of it.
Would you go to the gym if you couldn't improve your health and increase muscle strength?
Progression drives motivation.. If we could not grow in anything, there would be less of a reason, less of a point to do such activity..
It's one of the few reasons I have grown so in love with MMORPG's..
Well..Yah I did say you can get more style options and stuff from doing things and maybe titles or whatever but they WONT be gameplay affecting.
Basically the most you can progress is visual stuff or maybe custom animations, titles, sparkling pony or a monocle for an achievment n stuff like thaat o.o
So yah you get eye candy but you cant just go "oh you dont have x so you cant join us" or something like that. Instead it will be more like "do you know how to react to x enemies? " then people can just give advice n stuff o.o
As for Vyeths comment.
You do progess. As a player. Your char doesnt gain "levels" or any stats much or w/e. But you do get better at playing n stuff and you do progress through the content o.o So what you said is confuusing me >.<
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
( o.o)
(")(")
**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
I would give it a try but i really enjoy leveling. It is a good reinforcement
I understand your point. I have tried to think of games with no progression, but OP did say there would be content progression...It depends on what that means...there's new items, new spells, new vehicles, new territories, rise & fall of factions (wish we'd see that)
so it might work from a certain point of view.
_____________________________
"Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"
Sorry I took it too literal.. I understand the argument about "If you do something enough you will get better at it", but that isn't always true.. But now that I understand your reasoning with content progression, you basically shifted the "levels" from the individual onto the actual setting or world, which is basically the same thing but in a different scale..
I think it would be pretty cool actually, if the actions and decisions of the players as a whole directly controlled and contributed to the change of their surroundings in both positive and negative ways. I would gladly exchange a personal character "level" for say some kind of global status.. I would gladly trade those puny experience points earned from slaying that dragon if I could visually SEE that I have saved a town of crafters from certain doom..