You know what kills me and that people are asking for a space sim from a company that has no experience in producing them. Bioware has a rich history of devoping RPG's, it is what they specialize in, more specificly RPG's that derive themselves from D&D mechanics. Which is why "Shocker" they are focusing hevily on a story driven MMORPG, thats primary goal is to be... an RPG. You want a space sim go play xwing or rogue squadron, or ask those companies to develop one, as it takes a lot of time and energy to produce a functional and engaing simulation experience, time that Bioware spent on producing the RPG aspects instead. If you dont like it oh well facts are facts, and flights sims arnt Biowares bag, maybe in the future they will tac it on but then again id rather leave that to a company who has the deveopment history of SW flight games to make a space MMO, cus in reality in order for it to be great it would have to be a seperate game all together.
Though I do agree with this post, and this is a good support of the current system...
I don't think this is how we as gamers and consumers should encourage game companies. You can't just say that a company shoud NOT do something because they never did it that way before. I mean, it's not our authority to enforce anything on them, but at least want something better than "this is all we did in the past, so this is all we will do now."
BioWare can and probably will grow beyond the general story-driven RPG, similar to how Blizzard has encompassed several genres. I don't believe BioWare is limited to ONLY RPG's. I don't think many other people believe they are.
I surly dont belive Bioware isn't cabable of doing a flight sim but it as far as what they want to see from this game is out of the current scope of deveopement. They might add a flight sim latter on but to expect one at this stage is very off base. As the amount of time just on research to how they would like such a mechanic to funtion within the game they created alone would be a long task. Addtionally with the track record Bioware is "reported" to have one could assume that if they tackeled such a project they would not want to half ass it . So if it dose ever get implemented it will be a long while if it is to be of a quality standard that is expected of a game coming out the company.
Maybe not a sim flgiht game with landing and what not.
But take the current system we have now in TOR. Take away the rails and make it movable in 3 dimensions. Shouldn't be that hard as RPG's have underwater and flight nowadays. Combat would function similar to regular on-ground. Different animations, different looks. To make a fully blown simulation may be out of the question, but to change the space combat from a "mini game" to an actual part of the game shouldn't be out of BioWare's reach.
they have no experience making an MMO either. Neither did Blizzard. Did Blizzard release a game without crafting just because they had never done a game with crafting before?
It's Star Wars ffs ... theres no stars on Tatooine to have a war over.
Want to know why I'm glad space was given the amount of attention it was? Because more could be done for the ground game, it sounds as if there are a few layers to crafting in TOR. Basic item crafting, advanced item crafting and item modification. They were able to stuff 8 different 1-50 experiences to level through, each with multiple paths to choose from.
Focus for continued bioware story telling post leveling cap. Multiple forms of PVP. More attention to things such as itemization and/or loot tables. Multiple types of content for group or solo play. The fact of the matter is when you're moving into realms outside of a games focus such as space flight there's a point where something is sacrficed. You see that in what space combat they did offer, a tunnel shooter.
I've seen you criticize multiple aspects of TOR, now take all you are not happy about in those areas, and add to their limitations as of now, with an added devotion to building a space sim on top of this game. Those aspects become way worse in that situation, with even less focus given to them.
The only other aspects of the game I criticize have to do with the fact that, as someone else so eloquently put, it's more themepark than the 800 pound gorilla in the room. This is the same criticism. Space on rails == themepark. I have no problem with themepark elements but at this point with 8 different single player games packed into one and on rails space combat .. at what point is an AH and a chat panel not enough to make a game an MMO? It's a glorified LAN game with tiny little raids and some group content where you happen to see other people killing the same mobs as you. In a true MMO you should be able to level without quests to an extent. At least in WoW you can still run dungeons but you used to be able to do group content as well till they themparked the hell out of all of the more epic parts of the story.
And as I have always said, I will enjoy my movie .. for a shorter than average amount of time .. as MMOs go.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
You know what kills me and that people are asking for a space sim from a company that has no experience in producing them. Bioware has a rich history of devoping RPG's, it is what they specialize in, more specificly RPG's that derive themselves from D&D mechanics. Which is why "Shocker" they are focusing hevily on a story driven MMORPG, thats primary goal is to be... an RPG. You want a space sim go play xwing or rogue squadron, or ask those companies to develop one, as it takes a lot of time and energy to produce a functional and engaing simulation experience, time that Bioware spent on producing the RPG aspects instead. If you dont like it oh well facts are facts, and flights sims arnt Biowares bag, maybe in the future they will tac it on but then again id rather leave that to a company who has the deveopment history of SW flight games to make a space MMO, cus in reality in order for it to be great it would have to be a seperate game all together.
Though I do agree with this post, and this is a good support of the current system...
I don't think this is how we as gamers and consumers should encourage game companies. You can't just say that a company shoud NOT do something because they never did it that way before. I mean, it's not our authority to enforce anything on them, but at least want something better than "this is all we did in the past, so this is all we will do now."
BioWare can and probably will grow beyond the general story-driven RPG, similar to how Blizzard has encompassed several genres. I don't believe BioWare is limited to ONLY RPG's. I don't think many other people believe they are.
I surly dont belive Bioware isn't cabable of doing a flight sim but it as far as what they want to see from this game is out of the current scope of deveopement. They might add a flight sim latter on but to expect one at this stage is very off base. As the amount of time just on research to how they would like such a mechanic to funtion within the game they created alone would be a long task. Addtionally with the track record Bioware is "reported" to have one could assume that if they tackeled such a project they would not want to half ass it . So if it dose ever get implemented it will be a long while if it is to be of a quality standard that is expected of a game coming out the company.
Maybe not a sim flgiht game with landing and what not.
But take the current system we have now in TOR. Take away the rails and make it movable in 3 dimensions. Shouldn't be that hard as RPG's have underwater and flight nowadays. Combat would function similar to regular on-ground. Different animations, different looks. To make a fully blown simulation may be out of the question, but to change the space combat from a "mini game" to an actual part of the game shouldn't be out of BioWare's reach.
Really ... the reason this is getting so much attention is because what they gave us just stinks. We expect more from Bioware / Lucas arts then a minigame. Now if it was chess .. fine .. minigame it up .. but space combat in a star wars game should be more than an afterthought.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
See as there are no flight or water mechanics in the game as is, leads me to belive they have yet to develop a three dimentional movent system, with a physics that support it. It took WoW till BC to relase flight and that did not involve combat. In time it may come though but Bioware as a company is just not presuing it right now. or they may be working on it to be implemented at a later date.Until that time all we can do is wait and see, as obviously they have been told on numerous occations by many potential players about the want for a more advanced space flight game.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
The only other aspects of the game I criticize have to do with the fact that, as someone else so eloquently put, it's more themepark than the 800 pound gorilla in the room. This is the same criticism. Space on rails == themepark. I have no problem with themepark elements but at this point with 8 different single player games packed into one and on rails space combat .. at what point is an AH and a chat panel not enough to make a game an MMO? It's a glorified LAN game with tiny little raids and some group content where you happen to see other people killing the same mobs as you. In a true MMO you should be able to level without quests to an extent. At least in WoW you can still run dungeons but you used to be able to do group content as well till they themparked the hell out of all of the more epic parts of the story.
And as I have always said, I will enjoy my movie .. for a shorter than average amount of time .. as MMOs go.
So in other words your complaint is, everything the game is? I haven't played the game yet so I really have no clue what it will be. How "themeparked" it is, isn't really one of my concerns, I can get open ended game-play else where.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Really ... the reason this is getting so much attention is because what they gave us just stinks. We expect more from Bioware / Lucas arts then a minigame. Now if it was chess .. fine .. minigame it up .. but space combat in a star wars game should be more than an afterthought.
Tell that to those who made the Jedi Knight games, KOTOR 1&2, Republic Commando etc...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Really ... the reason this is getting so much attention is because what they gave us just stinks. We expect more from Bioware / Lucas arts then a minigame. Now if it was chess .. fine .. minigame it up .. but space combat in a star wars game should be more than an afterthought.
Tell that to those who made the Jedi Knight games, KOTOR 1&2, Republic Commando etc...
I would if i gave a crap about single player games
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
The only other aspects of the game I criticize have to do with the fact that, as someone else so eloquently put, it's more themepark than the 800 pound gorilla in the room. This is the same criticism. Space on rails == themepark. I have no problem with themepark elements but at this point with 8 different single player games packed into one and on rails space combat .. at what point is an AH and a chat panel not enough to make a game an MMO? It's a glorified LAN game with tiny little raids and some group content where you happen to see other people killing the same mobs as you. In a true MMO you should be able to level without quests to an extent. At least in WoW you can still run dungeons but you used to be able to do group content as well till they themparked the hell out of all of the more epic parts of the story.
And as I have always said, I will enjoy my movie .. for a shorter than average amount of time .. as MMOs go.
So in other words your complaint is, everything the game is? I haven't played the game yet so I really have no clue what it will be. How "themeparked" it is, isn't really one of my concerns, I can get open ended game-play else where.
No, the combat looks good ... and I will enjoy the few group mechanics the game has to offer .. for a little while. Then it's on to looking for something else. Is that not allowed? I wasn't aware I had to like everything about a game to like a game or otherwise have an opinion about it.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Really ... the reason this is getting so much attention is because what they gave us just stinks. We expect more from Bioware / Lucas arts then a minigame. Now if it was chess .. fine .. minigame it up .. but space combat in a star wars game should be more than an afterthought.
Tell that to those who made the Jedi Knight games, KOTOR 1&2, Republic Commando etc...
I would if i gave a crap about single player games
I assumed you did since you were just saying you were only playing TOR to enjoy it's single-player aspects.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Though I admire your adamancy, you must realize the impementation of what you are looking for after thought or not , is in and of itself a large scale project, unless you can come up with a legitimate way they could implent this system before launch it just wont happen. A free roam space envorment in and of itself would require a large amount of designe work, animation, physics mehcanics, art, etc..., and that alone would take a large chunk of time. Then you have to look at "how will the ships funtion in 3D space?" this inclues piloting mechanics, flight movents and manuvers, acceleration/decelleration mechancis, combat (how can we make it functional and fun), how will ships interact with objects in space (can you get hit by an astroid?), and the list goes on. Then you have to address the ships themselves, upgrade systems, can you change the look of your ship, as a pilot what determins your skill, how will wepons work, will diffent ships funtions diffently with diffent wepons, how do we put the animations of ship flight and ship combat into 3d space, etc. Then you need to figure out how this will work on a large scale with many people; will thier be capital ships?; how will we set up player envoirnment and player, player interactions;how will we sperate players? or will they all be on the same playspace at once?; how will we seperate it from the ground game? These are just some of the considerations to make just to implement such an addtion, and those alone will take time to process, which dosnt even include the acctuall deveopment of the features, which depending on team size and issues could take even longer. Also how will severs work, for such a project would they have a seperate sever set up for the space aspects or will it work with the ground servers? What if a large space war happens and planets recive fire will it not affect the ground game? think about it.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
No, the combat looks good ... and I will enjoy the few group mechanics the game has to offer .. for a little while. Then it's on to looking for something else. Is that not allowed? I wasn't aware I had to like everything about a game to like a game or otherwise have an opinion about it.
I have forbidden it.
I was just saying space isn't exactly something that has to be in a star wars game, sales alone prove that. You seemed to be implying it as a standard to Star Wars gaming. Which just isn't the case. You're free to feel how you want, but, don't get angry because someone questions a point you made.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have no notion that it is possible to do by launch (we already have the fruits of that labor with on-rails space combat). We are firmly in the, please, this needs to be done asap section of the discussion.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Well for most people space isn't the main reason for playing tor. You wanna know what space MMo game really sucks? EVE Online. Cross between an RTS and Ogame, one big bore fest.
I have no notion that it is possible to do by launch (we already have the fruits of that labor with on-rails space combat). We are firmly in the, please, this needs to be done asap section of the discussion.
Well we'll see how serious Bioware was about following the players wishes in this regard, I can't see even those who like the tunnel idea, not wanting to see it expanded on or replaced all together with something deeper. Unless it comes to light players actually don't want more, or Bioware just tries to say we don't.
They've opened the proverbial Pandoras box on this matter all by themselves. In the future they're going to A: have to live up to that expectation they set, or B: Look the fool and liar.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well for most people space isn't the main reason for playing tor.
I could say the complete opposite. Of course you would call me a liar .. so I wont even bother.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Well for most people space isn't the main reason for playing tor.
I could say the complete opposite. Of course you would call me a liar .. so I wont even bother.
Well, I just base it off what most people are talking about, and that's ground game. Space seems almost an after thought for most people. Things could change after launch if folks decide space is important to them. But at the moment I'm not seeing it beyond a few random threads here and there, and mostly filled with the same people bickering about it.
For the "star wars fans?" that are saying that a Star Wars game must have space combat because, duh, it's *Star* Wars. Past Star Wars games without real space combat:
Star Wars: Dark Forces
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith
Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy
Star Wars: Episode I: Racer
Star Wars: Racer Arcade
Star Wars: Racer Revenge
Star Wars: Galactive Battlegrounds
Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords
The Force Unleashed
The Force Unleashed II
Star Wars: The Empire At War
Star Wars: The Empire At War: Forces of Corruption
Star Wars: Republic Commando
Star Wars: Galaxies (pre-expansion)
and the list could go on...
That's a LOT. And the games that did have space combat usually made space combat as one of the primary focuses of the game: i.e. Xwing, Rebel Assault, Rogue Squadron, Starfighter, Battlefront.
And theres a long list of games that were focused on arcade space combat, similar to what SWTOR will include at launch (in addition to u know it's main party based character gameplay).
Also in the movies I, II, III, IV, V, VI huge majority of them take place on a planet or inside of a ship's interior, not in space. SWTOR launching with arcade space combat is surprising, that their including space combat at all...
If you can name one mmo that had both complete land and complete space game play at launch then I might be more inclined to listne.
And STO is not the answer.
Also, people people shouldn't be talking about providing game play "within their budget" because last I checked, no one saw the breakdown of their budget, man hours put in, etc.
They have years to expand upon space if they so desire.
For now they give the players a mini-game.
Also, I don't trust rumors becuase I would have to actually no the sources of those rumors.
Personally, I hate car/racing games. If I tried one I would probably pan it, make my statement and then someone would say that rumor has it that the racing game was bad.
All because I, who hate racing games, would never have given it a thumbs up in the first place.
So because no game has had this at launch no game ever will or should? No game has had full VO at launch does that mean that TOR can't possibly have it?
This is supposed to be the next big thing in MMO gaming and space (beyond a mini-game) was not added to a SW game? Really? This is STAR WARS!! Why wouldn't you want to be able to explore and fight in a free roaming space setting?
Not at all.
but I suspect that other games didn't have it because it's like creating a completely different game. it's almost like creating an entirely other mmo. From what I gather some players are looking for all the good land/planet stuff and then some version of EVE as the other component.
Of course they don't have to go that far but would players be happy with what STO has as their space component?
I'd rather them give me a min-game and then give me great space combat/flight "what have you" than feel the need to add this whole other component that might take away from giving us a great mmo.
If you've read any of what the developers have stated they say that Star Wars is not about "exploring" anything but about very specific reasons to be in space. They are interested in making movie moments, not giving players a Star Trek (read: NOT STO) exploration option.
They are interested in creating a very storied mmo where each section relates to the story.
Why would I want them to give me space exploration when Star Wars was never about "boldly going where no man has gone before"?
Do I want space flight? SURE! Do I want space flight at the cost of releasing a buggy unfinished game? No. I'd rather wait.
Of course, one rebuttal might be "well then they shouldn't put in all that voice acting and they should do away with the story thing and give us a more open universe".
Well, that's not what bioware does. They are story related. Every part of their game is going to reflect that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What % of the movies had light saber battles? What if that was a minigame where you got to use light sabers against little floating driods instead of the (or what looks like the) intense amount of time they spent making light sabers collide with many different animations, etc. Lots of development time there.
How much time was spent dancing and hanging out in a cantina? Yet we apparently have these awesomely designed little RPG elements as part of our cities, not little 1p mini games.
If yer talking about whats in the movies is in the game .. how can you deny that the whole scene with luke and leia firing away at tie fighters as han flies the millenium faulken .. that is one of the greatest parts of an of the movies. One of the greatest parts of I is young anekin in a space shit bouncing in and out of a space station. well that and jar jar binks >.<
lol I laughed at "space shit"
The whole point for IV was the last 10 minutes of the movie, and later VI .. flying a ship and destroying the death star.
As I've said before .. how do you have a bounty hunter / smuggler story line .. and not have the semblance of kitting out your starship or fighting off enemy fighters while smuggling cargo in the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy.
And finally ... again .. it's on rails ... just like a lot of the rest of the game. To me this is very contrary to the direction MMOs should be going in.
No offence, but if you think SWTOR is very contrary to the direction MMOG should be going, just don't support it, don't buy it, ignore it.
I'm pretty sure the amount of light sabre action trumps the amount of spaceship battles, phantoum menace had the qui-gon and obiwan battling darth maul for as long as the space battle. attack of the clones had anakin with obiwan against that old dude, then yoda as well plus others small sabre fights in the arena.
Revenge of the sith had so many the only space fight was like at the start when anakin flies through the battle.
new hope had more space fights, empire strikes back had vadar against luke, return of the jedi had vadar against luke again.
Not mention they use lightsabre for a lot of other ultility stuff as well, opening lock doors etc.
First, only forum fan boys want anyone to ignore their game. As i just said in another thread, bad publicity == publicity. Rest assured Bioware / Lucas is glad people like me are keeping these forums buzzing with what we think.
We really don't have to sit here and argue the seconds. Space combat is just as integral to star wars as light sabers. You can disagree with that .. but for me its maybe more so in terms of how the two concepts effect the idea of an MMO ... let alone the whole story aspect which they threw millions of dollars into instead of space combat and a bunch of other standard mmo features.
Nice call on me being a fanboy, but too bad I can't really mind what people likes to label me, to me, star wars isn't a typical sci-fi genre, but instead a space fantasy story. Sci-fi usually provides an explanation to almost every technology or event, star wars doesn't, The Force is almost like a religion, an ancient force. So for it to not include the usual space travel things, I don't really mind in the end, I care about the story, not just how I go about in space. Star Wars isn't about light sabre, space fighting, but it is about the story, the political turmoil and conflict is what made Star Wars so great, interpersonal relationships. We identify Anakin/Darth Vadar as a character, not just a jedi, sith or a gifted engineer, but a main character, a character whose choices can affect the course of the galactic empire. Thats what made Star Wars so great, the story, and thats what I'm playing SWTOR for. The Story.
Will I reject if Bioware tries to upgrade the space combat later with an expansion? Hell no, but as for now, I'm happy with what they put in.
Lastly, I'm not a coporate person, so do I care about publicity? No, bioware and EA does, but not me. So I stand by "No offence, but if you think SWTOR is very contrary to the direction MMOG should be going, just don't support it, don't buy it, ignore it."
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Not to mention, somthing like more in depth space content makes for a great expansion. Perhaps a reason for holding off to begin with. I just want a solid combat system to start, heh.
If you can name one mmo that had both complete land and complete space game play at launch then I might be more inclined to listne.
And STO is not the answer.
Also, people people shouldn't be talking about providing game play "within their budget" because last I checked, no one saw the breakdown of their budget, man hours put in, etc.
They have years to expand upon space if they so desire.
For now they give the players a mini-game.
Also, I don't trust rumors becuase I would have to actually no the sources of those rumors.
Personally, I hate car/racing games. If I tried one I would probably pan it, make my statement and then someone would say that rumor has it that the racing game was bad.
All because I, who hate racing games, would never have given it a thumbs up in the first place.
So because no game has had this at launch no game ever will or should? No game has had full VO at launch does that mean that TOR can't possibly have it?
This is supposed to be the next big thing in MMO gaming and space (beyond a mini-game) was not added to a SW game? Really? This is STAR WARS!! Why wouldn't you want to be able to explore and fight in a free roaming space setting?
Not at all.
but I suspect that other games didn't have it because it's like creating a completely different game. it's almost like creating an entirely other mmo. From what I gather some players are looking for all the good land/planet stuff and then some version of EVE as the other component.
Of course they don't have to go that far but would players be happy with what STO has as their space component?
I'd rather them give me a min-game and then give me great space combat/flight "what have you" than feel the need to add this whole other component that might take away from giving us a great mmo.
If you've read any of what the developers have stated they say that Star Wars is not about "exploring" anything but about very specific reasons to be in space. They are interested in making movie moments, not giving players a Star Trek (read: NOT STO) exploration option.
They are interested in creating a very storied mmo where each section relates to the story.
Why would I want them to give me space exploration when Star Wars was never about "boldly going where no man has gone before"?
Do I want space flight? SURE! Do I want space flight at the cost of releasing a buggy unfinished game? No. I'd rather wait.
Of course, one rebuttal might be "well then they shouldn't put in all that voice acting and they should do away with the story thing and give us a more open universe".
Well, that's not what bioware does. They are story related. Every part of their game is going to reflect that.
Great read here I agree totally. I could be alright with Star Wars having some huge space exploration component if it was something they could have pulled off without making the rest of the game suffer but that is a pretty masive undertaking that they are better off not forcing the issue on.
For the "star wars fans?" that are saying that a Star Wars game must have space combat because, duh, it's *Star* Wars. Past Star Wars games without real space combat:
Star Wars: Dark Forces
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith
Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy
Star Wars: Episode I: Racer
Star Wars: Racer Arcade
Star Wars: Racer Revenge
Star Wars: Galactive Battlegrounds
Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords
The Force Unleashed
The Force Unleashed II
Star Wars: The Empire At War
Star Wars: The Empire At War: Forces of Corruption
Star Wars: Republic Commando
Star Wars: Galaxies (pre-expansion)
and the list could go on...
That's a LOT. And the games that did have space combat usually made space combat as one of the primary focuses of the game: i.e. Xwing, Rebel Assault, Rogue Squadron, Starfighter, Battlefront.
And theres a long list of games that were focused on arcade space combat, similar to what SWTOR will include at launch (in addition to u know it's main party based character gameplay).
Also in the movies I, II, III, IV, V, VI huge majority of them take place on a planet or inside of a ship's interior, not in space. SWTOR launching with arcade space combat is surprising, that their including space combat at all...
Finally, someone else that has a clue. If you are one of those thinks that space combat is what Star Wars is all about you have the wrong genre, that would be Star Trek. Get a clue people this isn't a X-Wing vs Tie Fighter MMO, it's Star Wars, and if you paid any attention to any of the movies you will notice that the vast majority of them take place on a planet, not joyriding around the galaxy looking to pick a fight. All the space scenes were really for was to show off cool special effects. If you really want free/open space travel/combat there's always Eve or STO, play those and have fun, otherwise see ya in game... whenever it goes live.
For the "star wars fans?" that are saying that a Star Wars game must have space combat because, duh, it's *Star* Wars. Past Star Wars games without real space combat:
Star Wars: Dark Forces
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith
Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy
Star Wars: Episode I: Racer
Star Wars: Racer Arcade
Star Wars: Racer Revenge
Star Wars: Galactive Battlegrounds
Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords
The Force Unleashed
The Force Unleashed II
Star Wars: The Empire At War
Star Wars: The Empire At War: Forces of Corruption
Star Wars: Republic Commando
Star Wars: Galaxies (pre-expansion)
and the list could go on...
That's a LOT. And the games that did have space combat usually made space combat as one of the primary focuses of the game: i.e. Xwing, Rebel Assault, Rogue Squadron, Starfighter, Battlefront.
And theres a long list of games that were focused on arcade space combat, similar to what SWTOR will include at launch (in addition to u know it's main party based character gameplay).
Also in the movies I, II, III, IV, V, VI huge majority of them take place on a planet or inside of a ship's interior, not in space. SWTOR launching with arcade space combat is surprising, that their including space combat at all...
Finally, someone else that has a clue. If you are one of those thinks that space combat is what Star Wars is all about you have the wrong genre, that would be Star Trek. Get a clue people this isn't a X-Wing vs Tie Fighter MMO, it's Star Wars, and if you paid any attention to any of the movies you will notice that the vast majority of them take place on a planet, not joyriding around the galaxy looking to pick a fight. All the space scenes were really for was to show off cool special effects. If you really want free/open space travel/combat there's always Eve or STO, play those and have fun, otherwise see ya in game... whenever it goes live.
Let's take it that way, mind you?
Let's say a good competitor (ex: Blizzard) makes another SW MMO with full fledged 3D space sim with much less story based content (to be fair) I bet my shirt the competitor would blow out TOR subscriptions in the long term.
Comments
Maybe not a sim flgiht game with landing and what not.
But take the current system we have now in TOR. Take away the rails and make it movable in 3 dimensions. Shouldn't be that hard as RPG's have underwater and flight nowadays. Combat would function similar to regular on-ground. Different animations, different looks. To make a fully blown simulation may be out of the question, but to change the space combat from a "mini game" to an actual part of the game shouldn't be out of BioWare's reach.
The only other aspects of the game I criticize have to do with the fact that, as someone else so eloquently put, it's more themepark than the 800 pound gorilla in the room. This is the same criticism. Space on rails == themepark. I have no problem with themepark elements but at this point with 8 different single player games packed into one and on rails space combat .. at what point is an AH and a chat panel not enough to make a game an MMO? It's a glorified LAN game with tiny little raids and some group content where you happen to see other people killing the same mobs as you. In a true MMO you should be able to level without quests to an extent. At least in WoW you can still run dungeons but you used to be able to do group content as well till they themparked the hell out of all of the more epic parts of the story.
And as I have always said, I will enjoy my movie .. for a shorter than average amount of time .. as MMOs go.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Really ... the reason this is getting so much attention is because what they gave us just stinks. We expect more from Bioware / Lucas arts then a minigame. Now if it was chess .. fine .. minigame it up .. but space combat in a star wars game should be more than an afterthought.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
See as there are no flight or water mechanics in the game as is, leads me to belive they have yet to develop a three dimentional movent system, with a physics that support it. It took WoW till BC to relase flight and that did not involve combat. In time it may come though but Bioware as a company is just not presuing it right now. or they may be working on it to be implemented at a later date.Until that time all we can do is wait and see, as obviously they have been told on numerous occations by many potential players about the want for a more advanced space flight game.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
So in other words your complaint is, everything the game is? I haven't played the game yet so I really have no clue what it will be. How "themeparked" it is, isn't really one of my concerns, I can get open ended game-play else where.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Tell that to those who made the Jedi Knight games, KOTOR 1&2, Republic Commando etc...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I would if i gave a crap about single player games
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
No, the combat looks good ... and I will enjoy the few group mechanics the game has to offer .. for a little while. Then it's on to looking for something else. Is that not allowed? I wasn't aware I had to like everything about a game to like a game or otherwise have an opinion about it.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I assumed you did since you were just saying you were only playing TOR to enjoy it's single-player aspects.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Though I admire your adamancy, you must realize the impementation of what you are looking for after thought or not , is in and of itself a large scale project, unless you can come up with a legitimate way they could implent this system before launch it just wont happen. A free roam space envorment in and of itself would require a large amount of designe work, animation, physics mehcanics, art, etc..., and that alone would take a large chunk of time. Then you have to look at "how will the ships funtion in 3D space?" this inclues piloting mechanics, flight movents and manuvers, acceleration/decelleration mechancis, combat (how can we make it functional and fun), how will ships interact with objects in space (can you get hit by an astroid?), and the list goes on. Then you have to address the ships themselves, upgrade systems, can you change the look of your ship, as a pilot what determins your skill, how will wepons work, will diffent ships funtions diffently with diffent wepons, how do we put the animations of ship flight and ship combat into 3d space, etc. Then you need to figure out how this will work on a large scale with many people; will thier be capital ships?; how will we set up player envoirnment and player, player interactions;how will we sperate players? or will they all be on the same playspace at once?; how will we seperate it from the ground game? These are just some of the considerations to make just to implement such an addtion, and those alone will take time to process, which dosnt even include the acctuall deveopment of the features, which depending on team size and issues could take even longer. Also how will severs work, for such a project would they have a seperate sever set up for the space aspects or will it work with the ground servers? What if a large space war happens and planets recive fire will it not affect the ground game? think about it.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
I have forbidden it.
I was just saying space isn't exactly something that has to be in a star wars game, sales alone prove that. You seemed to be implying it as a standard to Star Wars gaming. Which just isn't the case. You're free to feel how you want, but, don't get angry because someone questions a point you made.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have no notion that it is possible to do by launch (we already have the fruits of that labor with on-rails space combat). We are firmly in the, please, this needs to be done asap section of the discussion.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Well for most people space isn't the main reason for playing tor. You wanna know what space MMo game really sucks? EVE Online. Cross between an RTS and Ogame, one big bore fest.
Well we'll see how serious Bioware was about following the players wishes in this regard, I can't see even those who like the tunnel idea, not wanting to see it expanded on or replaced all together with something deeper. Unless it comes to light players actually don't want more, or Bioware just tries to say we don't.
They've opened the proverbial Pandoras box on this matter all by themselves. In the future they're going to A: have to live up to that expectation they set, or B: Look the fool and liar.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I could say the complete opposite. Of course you would call me a liar .. so I wont even bother.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Well, I just base it off what most people are talking about, and that's ground game. Space seems almost an after thought for most people. Things could change after launch if folks decide space is important to them. But at the moment I'm not seeing it beyond a few random threads here and there, and mostly filled with the same people bickering about it.
For the "star wars fans?" that are saying that a Star Wars game must have space combat because, duh, it's *Star* Wars. Past Star Wars games without real space combat:
Star Wars: Dark Forces
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith
Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy
Star Wars: Episode I: Racer
Star Wars: Racer Arcade
Star Wars: Racer Revenge
Star Wars: Galactive Battlegrounds
Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords
The Force Unleashed
The Force Unleashed II
Star Wars: The Empire At War
Star Wars: The Empire At War: Forces of Corruption
Star Wars: Republic Commando
Star Wars: Galaxies (pre-expansion)
and the list could go on...
That's a LOT. And the games that did have space combat usually made space combat as one of the primary focuses of the game: i.e. Xwing, Rebel Assault, Rogue Squadron, Starfighter, Battlefront.
And theres a long list of games that were focused on arcade space combat, similar to what SWTOR will include at launch (in addition to u know it's main party based character gameplay).
Also in the movies I, II, III, IV, V, VI huge majority of them take place on a planet or inside of a ship's interior, not in space. SWTOR launching with arcade space combat is surprising, that their including space combat at all...
Not at all.
but I suspect that other games didn't have it because it's like creating a completely different game. it's almost like creating an entirely other mmo. From what I gather some players are looking for all the good land/planet stuff and then some version of EVE as the other component.
Of course they don't have to go that far but would players be happy with what STO has as their space component?
I'd rather them give me a min-game and then give me great space combat/flight "what have you" than feel the need to add this whole other component that might take away from giving us a great mmo.
If you've read any of what the developers have stated they say that Star Wars is not about "exploring" anything but about very specific reasons to be in space. They are interested in making movie moments, not giving players a Star Trek (read: NOT STO) exploration option.
They are interested in creating a very storied mmo where each section relates to the story.
Why would I want them to give me space exploration when Star Wars was never about "boldly going where no man has gone before"?
Do I want space flight? SURE! Do I want space flight at the cost of releasing a buggy unfinished game? No. I'd rather wait.
Of course, one rebuttal might be "well then they shouldn't put in all that voice acting and they should do away with the story thing and give us a more open universe".
Well, that's not what bioware does. They are story related. Every part of their game is going to reflect that.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Nice call on me being a fanboy, but too bad I can't really mind what people likes to label me, to me, star wars isn't a typical sci-fi genre, but instead a space fantasy story. Sci-fi usually provides an explanation to almost every technology or event, star wars doesn't, The Force is almost like a religion, an ancient force. So for it to not include the usual space travel things, I don't really mind in the end, I care about the story, not just how I go about in space. Star Wars isn't about light sabre, space fighting, but it is about the story, the political turmoil and conflict is what made Star Wars so great, interpersonal relationships. We identify Anakin/Darth Vadar as a character, not just a jedi, sith or a gifted engineer, but a main character, a character whose choices can affect the course of the galactic empire. Thats what made Star Wars so great, the story, and thats what I'm playing SWTOR for. The Story.
Will I reject if Bioware tries to upgrade the space combat later with an expansion? Hell no, but as for now, I'm happy with what they put in.
Lastly, I'm not a coporate person, so do I care about publicity? No, bioware and EA does, but not me. So I stand by "No offence, but if you think SWTOR is very contrary to the direction MMOG should be going, just don't support it, don't buy it, ignore it."
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
The way i see it is
1) this game hasnt been launched yet so is a new game
2) many if not most MMO's didnt have some major mechanic or part at launch
3) game companys and especialy bioware thrive on added content and expansions
4) i prefer a game to master 1 thing than to try and master everything and fail (swg,WoW,STO,AoC ect. ect.)
5) if you object so much DONT PLAY IT.......
im pretty certain than more than 90% of people who are going to play and buy know what is going to be in game its hardly a sleeper title is it.
Keep people informed yes make your point of view fine will it make the game flop or fly NO
So boys and girls keep it civil.
My view is as long as its launched with a good foundation to build upon and it keeps me wanting to play Sucess.
Not to mention, somthing like more in depth space content makes for a great expansion. Perhaps a reason for holding off to begin with. I just want a solid combat system to start, heh.
"cinnamon buns"
- Pickles
Great read here I agree totally. I could be alright with Star Wars having some huge space exploration component if it was something they could have pulled off without making the rest of the game suffer but that is a pretty masive undertaking that they are better off not forcing the issue on.
Releasing TOR without fully functional space combat is as bad as Turbine releasing a LOTR MMO without a playable evil faction.
The X-Wing/Tie Fighter series was the perfect template for them to use.
Finally, someone else that has a clue. If you are one of those thinks that space combat is what Star Wars is all about you have the wrong genre, that would be Star Trek. Get a clue people this isn't a X-Wing vs Tie Fighter MMO, it's Star Wars, and if you paid any attention to any of the movies you will notice that the vast majority of them take place on a planet, not joyriding around the galaxy looking to pick a fight. All the space scenes were really for was to show off cool special effects. If you really want free/open space travel/combat there's always Eve or STO, play those and have fun, otherwise see ya in game... whenever it goes live.
Let's take it that way, mind you?
Let's say a good competitor (ex: Blizzard) makes another SW MMO with full fledged 3D space sim with much less story based content (to be fair) I bet my shirt the competitor would blow out TOR subscriptions in the long term.