Well raiding is a challenge and some just don't want any challenge in their games. It's too much of a 'headache' for them and I can understand their point of few slightly. However if all the rewards are handed to you on a silver platter...well that's incredibly boring and pointless isn't it?
None of you on here raid on WoW do you? Some of the raids take a mere 30 minutes, while others might take 2-3 hours...a few times a week (and even that is optional). I would say that's hardly a time restraint...if you can't play that often why play at all? Other people have hobbies that take more time then that: Golf, Bowling, movie theatres, Watching sports, hiking etc.
Well raiding is a challenge and some just don't want any challenge in their games. It's too much of a 'headache' for them and I can understand their point of few slightly. However if all the rewards are handed to you on a silver platter...well that's incredibly boring and pointless isn't it?
As was pointed out above, what is the 'reward' of going to the beach? What is the reward of tubing down a river, or riding Pirates of the Carribean? What do I gain by sticking with my family and friends, even though they aren't capable of ever playing at a semi-pro level?
Take it a step further and consider -- what would pro sports be without the fans all the way down to the t-ball kids? Am I having a less rewarding experience just because I'm not hitting for the green fence?
I don't think that this point is a slight one. It's central to the argument. The only folks who seem to care about a 'silver platter' are the people who are driven to fill the (in my opnion delusional) need for progression.
The most popular games are based of raiding. What are you talking about?
Personally, I've never liked raiding. Its repetitive, and unadventurous.
Well I remember people cheered the fact that Anet doesnt want Raid Dungeons. Lot of people said they hated Raiding. Well why? Raiding fits the Massively Multiplayer element of PvE in MMORPG. Why is it so Unliked? Rather have 1v1 PvE or something?
Guild Wars was quite different game from a mainstream raiding game like WoW. It created a fanbase that has a fairly strong anti-raiding crowd.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Well raiding is a challenge and some just don't want any challenge in their games. It's too much of a 'headache' for them and I can understand their point of few slightly. However if all the rewards are handed to you on a silver platter...well that's incredibly boring and pointless isn't it?
As was pointed out above, what is the 'reward' of going to the beach? What is the reward of tubing down a river, or riding Pirates of the Carribean? What do I gain by sticking with my family and friends, even though they aren't capable of ever playing at a semi-pro level?
Take it a step further and consider -- what would pro sports be without the fans all the way down to the t-ball kids? Am I having a less rewarding experience just because I'm not hitting for the green fence?
I don't think that this point is a slight one. It's central to the argument. The only folks who seem to care about a 'silver platter' are the people who are driven to fill the (in my opnion delusional) need for progression.
It's not really about the "need for progression" but, again, about challenging yourself & your teammates on overcoming a seemingly impossible task (and the satisfication of doing so). You have your playstyle and I have mine.
It's not really about the "need for progression" but, again, about challenging yourself & your teammates on overcoming a seemingly impossible task (and the satisfication of doing so). You have your playstyle and I have mine.
If it's about the challenge and teamwork, then why do you need gear? Specifically, why need or care about that gear having an advantage over what others who don't entertain your playstyle have?
It's all playstyle and opinion until the gear enters the equation, isn't it? Otherwise why the 'silver platter' comment?
If raiding is so unpopular why does world of warcraft still retain 11.4 million players worldwide???
answer me that? where is the proof that raiding is unpopular? World of warcraft is huge on end game raiding yet they retain those huge subscribers? are you sure that raiding is unpopular in mmos??? And perhaps raiding in your opinion is unpopular and not the opinion of general mmorpg players ??
If raiding is so unpopular why does world of warcraft still retain 11.4 million players worldwide???
answer me that? where is the proof that raiding is unpopular? World of warcraft is huge on end game raiding yet they retain those huge subscribers? are you sure that raiding is unpopular in mmos???
I remember a blue post from earlier this year, where the poster remarked that raiding just didn't have the popularity that it once had. I could be wrong. I'll try to hunt up the post.
Claiming that the raid game is what keeps WoW popular is a stretch.
I think the big reason people don't like raiding is the time comitment along with the sometimes steep requirements to enter the raid. I know for myself I shy away from raids because I don't want to let people down. I think I am a decent player when it comes to playing my toons but things like damage counters and gear score create more problems then they solve.
What happened to the good old days (without counters) when people jumped at a challenge with friends / guilds and kept going at it until they won the battle. By the way it's not just raiding that people have problems with these days. I see so many times in WoW instances were people leave before even fighting 1 mob. They take one look at the other players gear score and leave.
It's not really about the "need for progression" but, again, about challenging yourself & your teammates on overcoming a seemingly impossible task (and the satisfication of doing so). You have your playstyle and I have mine.
If it's about the challenge and teamwork, then why do you need gear? Specifically, why need or care about that gear having an advantage over what others who don't entertain your playstyle have?
It's all playstyle and opinion until the gear enters the equation, isn't it? Otherwise why the 'silver platter' comment?
It's a risk vs. reward thing. You aren't going to get the best gear in the game by doing "Pick 10 flowers" quests and why should you? As for the value of the gear? They are just merely trophies & required tools to get to the next step...tools that will be obsolete in 1 year maximum.
It's a risk vs. reward thing. You aren't going to get the best gear in the game by doing "Pick 10 flowers" quests and why should you? As for the value of the gear? They are just merely trophies & required tools to get to the next step...tools that will be obsolete in 1 year maximum.
Please explain how your rewards relate to the rewards of someone who 'picks flowers'?
The flower-picker wouldn't be able to complete a hardmode raid with any amount of gear, because the true difficulty in raiding is in not having any individual stand in something.
So how is your reward made more appreciable by denying reward to someone who cannot and isn't interested in competing with you?
I submit that your rewards are only appreciable BECAUSE of the comparison between with who do not have what you do. It is this desire to stand above others that requires the loot awards cater to the raid game. Even the leaders of Ensidia, in their interview about Star Wars: TOR made clear that a game with only a million subs couldn't support hardcore raiding.
Without scrubs to lord over, raiders have no game. Can it be any wonder that the common scrub is tired of being taxed to pay for something completely irrelevent but fully dependent upon them?
It's a risk vs. reward thing. You aren't going to get the best gear in the game by doing "Pick 10 flowers" quests and why should you? As for the value of the gear? They are just merely trophies & required tools to get to the next step...tools that will be obsolete in 1 year maximum.
Please explain how your rewards relate to the rewards of someone who 'picks flowers'?
The flower-picker wouldn't be able to complete a hardmode raid with any amount of gear, because the true difficulty in raiding is in not having any individual stand in something.
So how is your reward made more appreciable by denying reward to someone who cannot and isn't interested in competing with you?
I submit that your rewards are only appreciable BECAUSE of the comparison between with who do not have what you do. It is this desire to stand above others that requires the loot awards cater to the raid game. Even the leaders of Ensidia, in their interview about Star Wars: TOR made clear that a game with only a million subs couldn't support hardcore raiding.
Without scrubs to lord over, raiders have no game. Can it be any wonder that the common scrub is tired of being taxed to pay for something completely irrelevent but fully dependent upon them?
I don't think raiding is bad per se
but i hate when thats all a game has to do is raid.. if the only relevent *end game* event is defeat uber dragon / orc / pixie fairy princess (?) in a dugeon with 20+ people... it gets boring doing it repeatedly.
I like adventure... doing the same raid twice a week in a process then moving on to the next raid kind of destroys end game for me..
I don't like games to be formulaic.. i like spontaneity and suspense.
Why can't there be world PvP and world bosses? Because of the existence of people like the Goonies. They are the main reason that every game that has had FFA PvP has changed its rule set, niched itself (or gone under). The overwhelming majority of the western player market has rather little toleration for ganking and griefing these days. Which is why games that allow (let alone encourage) it find themselves in a narrow niche market.
As far as raiding goes, its partly laziness on the part of the Dev's, and partly the fault of a small percentage of the player base, who eat such relatively easy to create end game content up. But its a toxic feed back cycle at this point. Thats why I'll be fascinated to see how Guild Wars 2 deals with this. Rather few people realize that many of the operational methods involved in on line gaming, come from the work of people like B. F Skinner, and his early work on what is known as operant conditioning.
Moving beyond such an approach, would require much more talent, creativity and time, than most Dev's (and their investors) are willing (or able at this point...) to bring to the market.
I actually did enjoy chinese players hiding behind the cliffs one shoting players trying to attempt killing a world boss.
I dont care much about people ruining world bosses, every player attempting to do raids nowadays success and every player looks the same. Let there be griefing, just about anything, and let the world boss drop some enchant that makes your sword bleed as a cool effect and you will be one unique snowflake.
As for the world PvP- i actually find it funny, cause players enjoyed PvPing and griefing in Diablo 2 such as an assassin blocking uber diablo by puting traps one shoting players that wanted to have unique items. Nowadays, if that would happen, holy crap the forums would flood.
You know what pisses me off my friend? Players rolls PvP servers and whining about getting ganked. Its just better that the devs ignores them. They threath you that they will quit but they will just go PvE. They do enjoy getting attention.
Actually i did enjoy raids back in the days. Its not because of the time it took, its because of the extremely low drop chance items had. If you got a dragon bow, everyone would screenshot you. Now raids fails because its way too easy, way too boring, way too long, feels like a job and youll successfully get raid gear but you wont look unique, everyone attempting to do raids nowadays succeed.
They just cant make raid bosses funny anymore. Way too easy=whine, way too hard= qq. Imagine if Blizzard actually put up Diablo as a raid boss one shoting the raids with fire nova and channeling that one shot fire beam randomly across the room. The forums would be flooded with whine.
I want to add: The only really successfull PvP i played solo gotta be all vs all places where people had to fight in a arena for a chest. I so enjoyed it.
; I would enjoy raiding once again if the bosses were interesting and have extremely low chance to drop something really cool. It still exists in WoW, some bosses have an extremely low chance to drop mounts, and when you fly around with your phoenix, everyone will go after you and ask you where the hell you got that mount from. I think that most players enjoy looking unique.
So you do raids so you can do flex emotes in front of the auction house.
And what's the point of griefing a player trying to kill a boss in Diablo?
Wow, every problem with MMOPG games comes from people like you, grats.
If raiding is so unpopular why does world of warcraft still retain 11.4 million players worldwide???
answer me that? where is the proof that raiding is unpopular? World of warcraft is huge on end game raiding yet they retain those huge subscribers? are you sure that raiding is unpopular in mmos??? And perhaps raiding in your opinion is unpopular and not the opinion of general mmorpg players ??
Because WOW-clone is the only available game out there, and why play a WOW-clone when you can play the original.
It's a risk vs. reward thing. You aren't going to get the best gear in the game by doing "Pick 10 flowers" quests and why should you? As for the value of the gear? They are just merely trophies & required tools to get to the next step...tools that will be obsolete in 1 year maximum.
Please explain how your rewards relate to the rewards of someone who 'picks flowers'?
The flower-picker wouldn't be able to complete a hardmode raid with any amount of gear, because the true difficulty in raiding is in not having any individual stand in something.
So how is your reward made more appreciable by denying reward to someone who cannot and isn't interested in competing with you?
I submit that your rewards are only appreciable BECAUSE of the comparison between with who do not have what you do. It is this desire to stand above others that requires the loot awards cater to the raid game. Even the leaders of Ensidia, in their interview about Star Wars: TOR made clear that a game with only a million subs couldn't support hardcore raiding.
Without scrubs to lord over, raiders have no game. Can it be any wonder that the common scrub is tired of being taxed to pay for something completely irrelevent but fully dependent upon them?
You speak TREASON!! It is the Divine Right of Raiders to lord over the great unwashed of the non raider population. It is the natural order of things. It is how things have always been, and hence how they must always be.
Actually, when one starts to examine the background and details of the reason that raiding is such a big part of end game, (for a small part of the total population...) you discover that its because its one of the most relatively easy and cheap content types to produce. ^^
In other words, its both time and talent effective. Quality content is one of THE most expensive things time/talent wise to produce. Given the broken dynamic of most end game systems, its pretty much all one can really expect, at this point in the evolution of MMO's.
So you do raids so you can do flex emotes in front of the auction house.
And what's the point of griefing a player trying to kill a boss in Diablo?
Wow, every problem with MMOPG games comes from people like you, grats.
I gotta say that the world boss was a bad idea but it was fun in WoW as long as it lasted. Atleast you could go to the world and have some fun with other players.
1. What do you mean? Well maybe you find it fun to look like everyone else but i want to feel unique. It feels rewarding. OFC you do raids to get raid gear, theres a reason why raid gear in WoW looked so freaking cool. Its because you got rewarded for raiding. Now, everyone got the same equipment, and Blizzard do not bother making unique raiding gear anymore. Just "put a sack on his face and make the cloths burn!" Im changing my mind here actually: Make raid gear as easy to get as nowadays but make every boss have an extremely small chance to drop the coolest badass looking weapon so i can /flex at the AH.
Thats what i mean really by replying this topic. Atleast i wont bother raiding anymore because i will still look the same as everyone else. Thats what made me love GW. The best gear could be obtained in almost the same easy mode, but you had to go far far ahead and do farms to make yourself looking unique. Why did i even bother to get a cannibal mask for my warrior in GW when i could buy an item easily with the same stat? I wanted to look unique.
Actually, as i know that most players just picks the easiest class and race combo to play with, i dont have a clue why noone bothers to raid anymore.
TLDR; If MMOs had unique or hard to get items i would raid again. And add keys and other hard to get stuffs so any player cant enter the raid instantly. So would my friends too that have rolled PvP. Thats the reason they wont raid, they want to look unique. I dont know hows with the other people.
2. Its fun cause many people cant play well. I myself entered the game as a paladin with lighting resistance and owned the assassin by charging bashing her away and pulling Diablo away to kill him in a safe place.
Okay, bad bad example. Ofc its exploiting when 40 frost mages guards a boss, this is an MMO, but its still not fun to see the devs change basic skills when you can play smart to get over something.
"Wow, every problem with MMOPG games comes from people like you, grats."
I cant argue against this. As players like you made Blizzard put up elite guards everywhere to prevent PvPing in PvP servers. Grats.
(As in i have no intention to ruin the MMO world, as you judge me for every bad thing ive done to your MMO (which is nonsense, i never QQ or whine atleast in the official forums) you might think its fine for me to judge you like that?
I can only speak of raiding experiences in WoW but for me the actual combat part of it wasn't fun enough to make up for the rest of the bs that goes hand-in-hand with raiding. Pounding out the same rotation hour after hour, week after week isn't enjoyable to me.
If the atmosphere in a new raid area was nice I'd get some pleasure out of going through it, still like Kara alot, but that usually diminishes over time. I'd feel a sense of communal accomplishment when we'd manage to get all 10 or 25 of us to simultaneously jump a hurdle and down a boss, but that too would fade after the first few times.
With the enjoyment of simply being there and the feeling of accomplishing something gone, it just turns into work. Without having any fun in the process of putting out dps,heals or threat, that work isn't enjoyable and It it's time to give your two-weeks notice.
That being said i'd probably still play, and raid in, WoW if they'd never raised the level cap and I had all the raiding content they'd ever created available to new and old characters at max level. Keep the heroics for each expac for the badge/emblem grinds if you want to skip the previous xpacs raids for gearing and just turn people loose. It is a themepark, but it seems silly to have shut down all of the old rides just because they're not shiny anymore.
Do you mean MMORPG.COM community? Because that is one of the few places I notice raiding is really unpopular.
WoW, Rift, even EVE all have strong raiding communities.
Right, that's why EQ, the raiding king of games went through 2 million subs and never retained more than 450,000 at it's peak or WoW, whose developers admitted openly that no more than 20% of their player base participates in raids? The anecdotal data is out there if you take the time to actually look for it or heck, if you even bother to talk to people when you play these games, the trend is obvious.
How is EQ the raiding king? 2 million subs and only 450,000 left? How does this have anything to do with people enjoying raiding? Where does this 20% number come from? Both smell like they were pulled out of an anus.
Raiding is huge in WoW. Sure, out of the millions and millions of players it might only be a smaller portion who actually manage to do it. But the argument here was why people don't like it. Which I believe is a bad argument. I think a large majority of players are just unable to do it.
Raiding in most games takes a LOT of time investment. Average probably 4 hour solid play session multiple times per night. Most normal humans have jobs, and other things they need to do each day/night.
When SOE was making EQ2, they admitted the numbers of people who left EQ, due to two reasons, it being too hardcore and too raid centric end game, that's why they made EQ2 more casual. Blizzard gave out those numbers when they first started getting such poisonous feedback from the community when they kept adding raid after raid in the first year and not enough casual content and decided to add more casual content due to the lashback. These numbers were not made up, do any kind of research and you'll find this information.
Well raiding is a challenge and some just don't want any challenge in their games. It's too much of a 'headache' for them and I can understand their point of few slightly. However if all the rewards are handed to you on a silver platter...well that's incredibly boring and pointless isn't it?
As was pointed out above, what is the 'reward' of going to the beach? What is the reward of tubing down a river, or riding Pirates of the Carribean? What do I gain by sticking with my family and friends, even though they aren't capable of ever playing at a semi-pro level?
Take it a step further and consider -- what would pro sports be without the fans all the way down to the t-ball kids? Am I having a less rewarding experience just because I'm not hitting for the green fence?
I don't think that this point is a slight one. It's central to the argument. The only folks who seem to care about a 'silver platter' are the people who are driven to fill the (in my opnion delusional) need for progression.
It's not really about the "need for progression" but, again, about challenging yourself & your teammates on overcoming a seemingly impossible task (and the satisfication of doing so). You have your playstyle and I have mine.
Yet your play style gets the lion's share of developer time and rewards over everyone else? Screw that!
Comments
Well raiding is a challenge and some just don't want any challenge in their games. It's too much of a 'headache' for them and I can understand their point of few slightly. However if all the rewards are handed to you on a silver platter...well that's incredibly boring and pointless isn't it?
None of you on here raid on WoW do you? Some of the raids take a mere 30 minutes, while others might take 2-3 hours...a few times a week (and even that is optional). I would say that's hardly a time restraint...if you can't play that often why play at all? Other people have hobbies that take more time then that: Golf, Bowling, movie theatres, Watching sports, hiking etc.
As was pointed out above, what is the 'reward' of going to the beach? What is the reward of tubing down a river, or riding Pirates of the Carribean? What do I gain by sticking with my family and friends, even though they aren't capable of ever playing at a semi-pro level?
Take it a step further and consider -- what would pro sports be without the fans all the way down to the t-ball kids? Am I having a less rewarding experience just because I'm not hitting for the green fence?
I don't think that this point is a slight one. It's central to the argument. The only folks who seem to care about a 'silver platter' are the people who are driven to fill the (in my opnion delusional) need for progression.
Guild Wars was quite different game from a mainstream raiding game like WoW. It created a fanbase that has a fairly strong anti-raiding crowd.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
It's not really about the "need for progression" but, again, about challenging yourself & your teammates on overcoming a seemingly impossible task (and the satisfication of doing so). You have your playstyle and I have mine.
*It's like having a second job
*People who raid are often jerks and elites.
*It takes away freedom
*It ruins Fantasy
*You're no longer a hero, you're a sheep in the game answering to someone else.
*It's just not fun, only addictive.
Why did you ruin my post by posting crap under each line in red. Sigh.
Raiding became unpopular for me when they desided that time = challenge
I'm sorry. I now understand that your opinion is absolute and cannot be questioned. Please do not throw me into the snake pit, your majesty.
If it's about the challenge and teamwork, then why do you need gear? Specifically, why need or care about that gear having an advantage over what others who don't entertain your playstyle have?
It's all playstyle and opinion until the gear enters the equation, isn't it? Otherwise why the 'silver platter' comment?
If raiding is so unpopular why does world of warcraft still retain 11.4 million players worldwide???
answer me that? where is the proof that raiding is unpopular? World of warcraft is huge on end game raiding yet they retain those huge subscribers? are you sure that raiding is unpopular in mmos??? And perhaps raiding in your opinion is unpopular and not the opinion of general mmorpg players ??
I remember a blue post from earlier this year, where the poster remarked that raiding just didn't have the popularity that it once had. I could be wrong. I'll try to hunt up the post.
Claiming that the raid game is what keeps WoW popular is a stretch.
I think the big reason people don't like raiding is the time comitment along with the sometimes steep requirements to enter the raid. I know for myself I shy away from raids because I don't want to let people down. I think I am a decent player when it comes to playing my toons but things like damage counters and gear score create more problems then they solve.
What happened to the good old days (without counters) when people jumped at a challenge with friends / guilds and kept going at it until they won the battle. By the way it's not just raiding that people have problems with these days. I see so many times in WoW instances were people leave before even fighting 1 mob. They take one look at the other players gear score and leave.
Draegoth
Because only a minority raids in WoW and many people don't play WoW. There are more League of Legends players than WoW players right now.
It's a risk vs. reward thing. You aren't going to get the best gear in the game by doing "Pick 10 flowers" quests and why should you? As for the value of the gear? They are just merely trophies & required tools to get to the next step...tools that will be obsolete in 1 year maximum.
Please explain how your rewards relate to the rewards of someone who 'picks flowers'?
The flower-picker wouldn't be able to complete a hardmode raid with any amount of gear, because the true difficulty in raiding is in not having any individual stand in something.
So how is your reward made more appreciable by denying reward to someone who cannot and isn't interested in competing with you?
I submit that your rewards are only appreciable BECAUSE of the comparison between with who do not have what you do. It is this desire to stand above others that requires the loot awards cater to the raid game. Even the leaders of Ensidia, in their interview about Star Wars: TOR made clear that a game with only a million subs couldn't support hardcore raiding.
Without scrubs to lord over, raiders have no game. Can it be any wonder that the common scrub is tired of being taxed to pay for something completely irrelevent but fully dependent upon them?
I don't think raiding is bad per se
but i hate when thats all a game has to do is raid.. if the only relevent *end game* event is defeat uber dragon / orc / pixie fairy princess (?) in a dugeon with 20+ people... it gets boring doing it repeatedly.
I like adventure... doing the same raid twice a week in a process then moving on to the next raid kind of destroys end game for me..
I don't like games to be formulaic.. i like spontaneity and suspense.
So you do raids so you can do flex emotes in front of the auction house.
And what's the point of griefing a player trying to kill a boss in Diablo?
Wow, every problem with MMOPG games comes from people like you, grats.
Because WOW-clone is the only available game out there, and why play a WOW-clone when you can play the original.
You speak TREASON!! It is the Divine Right of Raiders to lord over the great unwashed of the non raider population. It is the natural order of things. It is how things have always been, and hence how they must always be.
Actually, when one starts to examine the background and details of the reason that raiding is such a big part of end game, (for a small part of the total population...) you discover that its because its one of the most relatively easy and cheap content types to produce. ^^
In other words, its both time and talent effective. Quality content is one of THE most expensive things time/talent wise to produce. Given the broken dynamic of most end game systems, its pretty much all one can really expect, at this point in the evolution of MMO's.
I gotta say that the world boss was a bad idea but it was fun in WoW as long as it lasted. Atleast you could go to the world and have some fun with other players.
1. What do you mean? Well maybe you find it fun to look like everyone else but i want to feel unique. It feels rewarding. OFC you do raids to get raid gear, theres a reason why raid gear in WoW looked so freaking cool. Its because you got rewarded for raiding. Now, everyone got the same equipment, and Blizzard do not bother making unique raiding gear anymore. Just "put a sack on his face and make the cloths burn!" Im changing my mind here actually: Make raid gear as easy to get as nowadays but make every boss have an extremely small chance to drop the coolest badass looking weapon so i can /flex at the AH.
Thats what i mean really by replying this topic. Atleast i wont bother raiding anymore because i will still look the same as everyone else. Thats what made me love GW. The best gear could be obtained in almost the same easy mode, but you had to go far far ahead and do farms to make yourself looking unique. Why did i even bother to get a cannibal mask for my warrior in GW when i could buy an item easily with the same stat? I wanted to look unique.
Actually, as i know that most players just picks the easiest class and race combo to play with, i dont have a clue why noone bothers to raid anymore.
TLDR; If MMOs had unique or hard to get items i would raid again. And add keys and other hard to get stuffs so any player cant enter the raid instantly. So would my friends too that have rolled PvP. Thats the reason they wont raid, they want to look unique. I dont know hows with the other people.
2. Its fun cause many people cant play well. I myself entered the game as a paladin with lighting resistance and owned the assassin by charging bashing her away and pulling Diablo away to kill him in a safe place.
Okay, bad bad example. Ofc its exploiting when 40 frost mages guards a boss, this is an MMO, but its still not fun to see the devs change basic skills when you can play smart to get over something.
"Wow, every problem with MMOPG games comes from people like you, grats."
I cant argue against this. As players like you made Blizzard put up elite guards everywhere to prevent PvPing in PvP servers. Grats.
(As in i have no intention to ruin the MMO world, as you judge me for every bad thing ive done to your MMO (which is nonsense, i never QQ or whine atleast in the official forums) you might think its fine for me to judge you like that?
Yawn
Or throw you in an endless raid, where at the end you get no loot.
I can only speak of raiding experiences in WoW but for me the actual combat part of it wasn't fun enough to make up for the rest of the bs that goes hand-in-hand with raiding. Pounding out the same rotation hour after hour, week after week isn't enjoyable to me.
If the atmosphere in a new raid area was nice I'd get some pleasure out of going through it, still like Kara alot, but that usually diminishes over time. I'd feel a sense of communal accomplishment when we'd manage to get all 10 or 25 of us to simultaneously jump a hurdle and down a boss, but that too would fade after the first few times.
With the enjoyment of simply being there and the feeling of accomplishing something gone, it just turns into work. Without having any fun in the process of putting out dps,heals or threat, that work isn't enjoyable and It it's time to give your two-weeks notice.
That being said i'd probably still play, and raid in, WoW if they'd never raised the level cap and I had all the raiding content they'd ever created available to new and old characters at max level. Keep the heroics for each expac for the badge/emblem grinds if you want to skip the previous xpacs raids for gearing and just turn people loose. It is a themepark, but it seems silly to have shut down all of the old rides just because they're not shiny anymore.
When SOE was making EQ2, they admitted the numbers of people who left EQ, due to two reasons, it being too hardcore and too raid centric end game, that's why they made EQ2 more casual. Blizzard gave out those numbers when they first started getting such poisonous feedback from the community when they kept adding raid after raid in the first year and not enough casual content and decided to add more casual content due to the lashback. These numbers were not made up, do any kind of research and you'll find this information.
Yet your play style gets the lion's share of developer time and rewards over everyone else? Screw that!