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A list of real world military tactics

2

Comments

  • AluviusAluvius Member Posts: 288

    Planetside 1 had the best tactical play in any mmo I"ve seen outside of maybe PotBS (which was much more limited) although I guess WW2Online would probably be up there as well.  I tried it at release and couldn't get past the bugs, I always meant to try it out again though, hmm.

    Anyway I love that SOE is going to actually support outfit specialization in PS2, ie tank outfits, air cav, etc.

    One of my favorite outfits was Azure Twilight, a Vanu outfit that specialized in tactical assault and holds.  We practiced Galaxy drop assaults and MAX assault/holds.  Usually we'd hit a tower via Gal drop for a zerg respawn point, then MAX assault in through the back door to take down the spawn tubes or the generator and hold them.  Other times we would do gal drops on strategic installations, drop the gen and hold it .. this worked very well on the smaller maps or for important bases like the enemy's only vehicle tech base on a continent.

    Then I joined another outfit that specialized in tanking which fit well with my engineering cert emphasis.  We"d do magrider drive by's and retire to a safe spot to repair.

    I ended up with another outfit that was much more loosely disciplined and played the engineer sapper/support.  I'd usually drive an ams to a chokepoint and set up a minefield, turret field and an orion turret.   Great fun :)

    My point is that we were able to do alot in game without official support, I can't wait to see what can be done in PS2 with it.  What I listed was only a sampling of the various tactical and strategic options the game gave us.

  • Hero_AlphaHero_Alpha Member UncommonPosts: 60

    I think the problem is that the OP is talking about tactics and others are talking about strategy. Altough the OP is being anal about it he is technically right, from a certain point of view.

     

    "1.  In military usage, a distinction is made between strategy  and tactics. Strategy  is the utilization, during both peace and war, of all of a nation's forces, through large-scale, long-range planning and development, to ensure security or victory. Tactics  deals with the use and deployment of troops in actual combat. "

     

    from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/strategy

    EDIT: spelling

    playing:DCUO,GW2
    played:SWG,LotRO,CoH,GW

  • luciusETRURluciusETRUR Member Posts: 442
    OK, in your defintion where a Holy priest places their lightwell is a tactic.. woot.
  • Nerf09Nerf09 Member CommonPosts: 2,953

    Originally posted by luciusETRUR

     

    So.. when Jose Mourinho decides to have his team play more defensive against Barcelona he is not using tactics? How is it different? When I dispel a buff I am playing more offensive, the other 2 examples are defensive. You decide these things before you enter the Arena, how will you play against different comps. If there were no tactics, I would play exactly the same everytime and not worry about who I should attack and who I should not attack. 

    You do play exactly the same everytime and not worry about who you should attack and who you should not attack, in WOW clones.

    Please, explain to me what your definition of tactics is?

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Member CommonPosts: 2,953

    1) Tactical Advantage.  You're armed with a Gauss assault rifle.  Enemy infantry are pouring out of the back door and heading perpendicular to your position heading left and engaging friendlies to your 10 oclock and nobody see's you, you've got them caught in a crossfire.  You're in a depression in the ground and complete cover from your 2-6 oclock from any enemies on the wall.  Your effectiveness is at least trippled.

    2)  Equipment Advantage.  You spent the last month grinding to get a Gauss + 2 assault rifle, you and the enemy are facing each other and shooting at each other.  Then it hits you, "Do'h, the enemy also grinded to get their Gauss +2, so you really don't have an equipment advantage.  It's all in your head, ignorance is bliss."

  • SioBabbleSioBabble Member Posts: 2,803

    You know, I'm pretty much convince the OP has terminal reading comprehension problems.

    I basically agree with him, but offer the caveat that the virtual world's engine will determine how things play out, what players will be able to do, how well they'll be able to apply real world military tactics in the virtual world.

    Then he makes curt, not terribly well thought out comments.

    There's also the issue, that he's unable to grasp, best I can tell, that the social interaction of players, with team mates and their opponents, has a very strong affect on how "real" any combat is going to be.  That PUGs are inherently going to distort how people fight a virtual battle...that they are inherently weaker than a group that plays together regularly, and thus has the advantage of having a good idea of what each other will do...they may very well have assigned roles within the group, beyond the nominal game ruleset roles.

    To sum up, real world military tactics may or may not work based on the game engine.  How close it comes to replicating the real world is key.

    For example, your entire day can be ruined by a jammed weapon at a crucial moment.  Is that going to happen on your virtual battlefield?  All depends on the design.

    CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.

    Once a denizen of Ahazi

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Member CommonPosts: 2,953

    Originally posted by SioBabble

    You know, I'm pretty much convince the OP has terminal reading comprehension problems.

    I basically agree with him, but offer the caveat that the virtual world's engine will determine how things play out, what players will be able to do, how well they'll be able to apply real world military tactics in the virtual world.

    Then he makes curt, not terribly well thought out comments.

    There's also the issue, that he's unable to grasp, best I can tell, that the social interaction of players, with team mates and their opponents, has a very strong affect on how "real" any combat is going to be.  That PUGs are inherently going to distort how people fight a virtual battle...that they are inherently weaker than a group that plays together regularly, and thus has the advantage of having a good idea of what each other will do...they may very well have assigned roles within the group, beyond the nominal game ruleset roles.

    To sum up, real world military tactics may or may not work based on the game engine.  How close it comes to replicating the real world is key.

    For example, your entire day can be ruined by a jammed weapon at a crucial moment.  Is that going to happen on your virtual battlefield?  All depends on the design.

    How about terms like PUG, tank, healer, nuker, and dungeon finder don't belong in a topic about Planteside2, how about that Chief.

    Like the term "Sandbox" being used by SONY in a sentence that contains the word Planetside2?  Gee I hope they mean a logistic simulation, not "sandbox" as it pertains to a MMORPG.  Hey who knows, maybe SONY will pull off the impossible, they might be the first to turn a MMOFPS into a WOW-clone somehow.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,803

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    Originally posted by SioBabble

    You know, I'm pretty much convince the OP has terminal reading comprehension problems.

    I basically agree with him, but offer the caveat that the virtual world's engine will determine how things play out, what players will be able to do, how well they'll be able to apply real world military tactics in the virtual world.

    Then he makes curt, not terribly well thought out comments.

    There's also the issue, that he's unable to grasp, best I can tell, that the social interaction of players, with team mates and their opponents, has a very strong affect on how "real" any combat is going to be.  That PUGs are inherently going to distort how people fight a virtual battle...that they are inherently weaker than a group that plays together regularly, and thus has the advantage of having a good idea of what each other will do...they may very well have assigned roles within the group, beyond the nominal game ruleset roles.

    To sum up, real world military tactics may or may not work based on the game engine.  How close it comes to replicating the real world is key.

    For example, your entire day can be ruined by a jammed weapon at a crucial moment.  Is that going to happen on your virtual battlefield?  All depends on the design.

    How about terms like PUG, tank, healer, nuker, and dungeon finder don't belong in a topic about Planteside2, how about that Chief.

    Like the term "Sandbox" being used by SONY in a sentence that contains the word Planetside2?  Gee I hope they mean a logistic simulation, not "sandbox" as it pertains to a MMORPG.  Hey who knows, maybe SONY will pull off the impossible, they might be the first to turn a MMOFPS into a WOW-clone somehow.

    You really are a unique individual Nerf, if you ever decide to take up a comedic career, let me know, I'll be sure to hackle you at every show.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Member CommonPosts: 2,953

    Well at least you could give me a courtesy "LOL".

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    PS1 was pretty much a zerg fest. The only tactic that could beat a numerically superior force was a gen hold where a squad with maxes rushed the generator room and kills anyone who attempts to repair it. Hopefully during that time your friendly faction can capture the court yard with vehicles. Although many criticized this since it ruined a lot of fun big fights.

     

    The bomber and artillery alien vehicle were pretty much fail since it was very hard to kill anything as it was easy to hide under a bridge or inside the base. If they could blow holes in the walls or something they would have been more viable.

     

    I guess you could call ninja hacking an infilttration type of tactic where a guy flys around to empty towers and bases and takes them over in order to draw attention away from the main fight.

     

    The truth is that with quick unlimited spawns and near infinite resources (vehicles), zerging becomes the only viable tactic because its so easy to replace any losses nearly instantly.

     

    One idea to increase the need for tactics is to put a limit on how many of a vehicle type a base can spawn at one time. That way for instance if a tech plant can only spawn 10 tanks at a time, then they need to be used effectively  since just rolling around doing nothing will really hurt the faction.

     

    This limit could be increased by ANT runs bringing more power / resources to the base, that way there would be a power / resource meta game happenning which could drastically effect the overall battle in that even if you are outnumbered, if you can stop an enemy base from getting power / resources from the warp gate then it will limit how much equipment the attackers can use whereas if you can get power / resources to your own bases the smaller force will have better equipment options.

     

    I doubt something like that would be implimented since it would likely result in tons of crying since not everyone would be able to get the equipment they want at any time, but it would reward non-zerg special operations type play and make the game more fun.

     

    The other big problem with PS1 was that there was nothing to be gained by actually trying to capture all the continents except bragging rights. Thus the strongest faction would capture an interlink base which lets you see the enemy on the mini map and just farm people for hours and hours instead of trying to capture more bases - the infamous interfarm. All thats needs to be added is something cool for winning the day like unique armor skins or a faction wide exp / cexp bonus or some other major / cool reward that would make people focus on capturing bases and less on K/D ratio.

     

  • AluviusAluvius Member Posts: 288

    Zerg management is a part of any rvr game, I'm sure it will be the same for PS2.  The good news is that SOE is giving us more tools for it this time with the command rank mission generation skills.  Even without them it was fairly easy to direct the zerg's attention where it was needed in PS1.  Most of the ams's and tower caps were thanks to the organized outfits .. move the spawns, move the zerg.  :)

    I would disagree with some specific stuff about the lib and such, but that's subjective and situational, too.

    Where I'll agree is that there wasn't much point in capping continents other than the ones that gave you nice bonuses.  The  other good news is that SOE is addressing this in that every bit of territory will provide resources, some more valuable than others.  The resources will be needed to spawn certain vehicles (not sure if it limits other equipment).

     

    We'll have to see how this works in practice, but as a long time PS1 player it looks like SOE has listened to all of the complaints/wishlists from us and is actually addressing them.  Fun stuff!

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Member CommonPosts: 2,953

    Originally posted by Nihilist

    One idea to increase the need for tactics is to put a limit on how many of a vehicle type a base can spawn at one time. That way for instance if a tech plant can only spawn 10 tanks at a time, then they need to be used effectively  since just rolling around doing nothing will really hurt the faction.

     

    God I hate this forum's quoting feature.  Infantry are suppose to do good in rough terrain with lots of cover adn concealment with lots of cover, I don't think limiting vehicles is the way to go, but to make terrain more friendly for infantry.

     

  • SimpleCrossSimpleCross Member UncommonPosts: 17

    Sabotage

    Thats a real world military tactic

  • SandaStunnaSandaStunna Member Posts: 101

    better forticifation engineering. like jersey barriers zigzag across in halls ways. most or every military camp has a zig zag jersey wall entrance. .better fortication improves the defence against zerg style attacks and fighting positions.

    -light modified jersey walls with firing slots (inside buildings or outside).

    -heavy modified jersey barrier (outside only)

    -modified brener bombarbment walls (outside only)

    -hesco barriers (cheap and easy portable building walls)

    -landscape modification trench and foxholes.

    -electric fence (outside)

    -watch tower/ sniper or machine gun nest.

    -classic TRAP for the tanks

     

    also CO or Plantoon leader command airstrikes (maybe like a satelite laser bombardment)  like in MAG would be great against slowing down zergs.

     

    imagine all this stuff on the way with bombstrikes on you.

    and you can make you own FOB.

    [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][[]

    []          ___                                                         []

    []            /                                                           []

    [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]       [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][

    - _ - _ - _ - _     _____________________I[][][][]

       I__________________ - _ - _     _ - _ - _ - __l

    [][][] ____    * __ * _ ******__________________l

    **************************                                      

     __/        /********************************************|

     

    they probably can use airstikes to blow most of this stuff away.

     

     

  • AluviusAluvius Member Posts: 288

    Planetside 1 had orbital strikes and emp strikes which were great for taking out fixed defenses.  You got these powers as you advanced in Command Rank via command experience which you received from leading squads/platoons and capturing/defending bases.

    Engineers could construct automated turrets (including cloaking and flak types), mines, single person turrets, motion sensors with audible alarms and dragon's teeth barriers which stopped vehicles and allowed infantry to shelter behind them.  All of these could be destroyed or temporarily disabled with either the above mentioned command powers or regular infantry/vehicle weapons.  Only noobs rolled out without at least 1 emp grenade on'em for mine and turret fields heh.

    As I said upthread, these were the things available in the 8 year old PS1 .... I can't wait to see what we can do in PS2.

  • lovechiefslovechiefs Member UncommonPosts: 157

    Good topic.
    These type of things are better used in Americas Army.

    Personally I am in the process of starting a gaming community and Americas Army 3 will be the community's first game. And our AA3 division will be based on realism.

  • AluviusAluvius Member Posts: 288

    I'm planning on going advanced engineering in PS2, it was my main certification build in PS1.  You could do all sorts of fun stuff since the game was sandboxy.  There were 2 types of mines, one that was proximity based and cloaked itself after a few seconds (it had friend/foe recognition so wouldn't blow up your side). 

    The second type was a command detonated mine that you could stick anywhere except on other players and vehicles.  Those were alot of fun, especially since they were susceptible to fratricide so you could place several near each other and make a larger explosion.  Stick them above a doorway, wait for a enemy rush and boom!  :)

    I would often cert ams (a mobile respawn and resupply vehicle) and advanced engineering with a medium combat build.  The ams had a cloak bubble, so you could set it up somewhere near a bridge/road or a base you were assaulting or defending.   I'd pick a spot then put out a full field of turrets and mines, then pop an Orion single person turret (I was Vanu and that was our turret version) which had a quick firing energy cannon.   It had regenerating shields and you could repair it.  

    The great thing was that even with all this, it still wasn't OP .. there were alot of counters people could use against me ... cloakers with engineering were bad, they could sneak up and put the command detonated mines around the base of the turret, anti vehicle max suits could light me up, reavers (ground attack aircraft) could hit me, tanks could pound me from out of my range, infantry with pop up guided missiles could hit me from defilade behind a hill crest, etc.   But then again you didn't fight alone, all of those tactics have their own counters that your own side could use.

    And heck that was just a bit of what I could do with one build alone.  Vehicles, battleframe robotics (which some hated), vehicles of all types .. at least half of which were crewed vehicles with multiple weapon systems on land and air, different classes of personal armor, armored MAX suits with heavy weapons.   And each of the 3 empires had variants for most of these things, for example the MAX suits, one empire had limited flight, one shields and another could lockdown for increased rate of fire plus each empire had 3 variants, anti air, anti vehicle and anti infantry all with different weapon systems for each suit.

    Whew, sorry for the wall of text lol.

    It was a game before its time ... with a modern engine behind the gameplay ... damn I can't wait :)

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Member CommonPosts: 2,953

    Originally posted by Aluvius

    Planetside 1 had orbital strikes and emp strikes which were great for taking out fixed defenses.  You got these powers as you advanced in Command Rank via command experience which you received from leading squads/platoons and capturing/defending bases.

    Engineers could construct automated turrets (including cloaking and flak types), mines, single person turrets, motion sensors with audible alarms and dragon's teeth barriers which stopped vehicles and allowed infantry to shelter behind them.  All of these could be destroyed or temporarily disabled with either the above mentioned command powers or regular infantry/vehicle weapons.  Only noobs rolled out without at least 1 emp grenade on'em for mine and turret fields heh.

    As I said upthread, these were the things available in the 8 year old PS1 .... I can't wait to see what we can do in PS2.

    All of those Engineer toys are useless when players got 5+ characters with their death ray from the sky EMP strike button.

     

    So why did Sandastuna and Aluvius quit playing Planetside1?

  • AluviusAluvius Member Posts: 288

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    Originally posted by Aluvius

    Planetside 1 had orbital strikes and emp strikes which were great for taking out fixed defenses.  You got these powers as you advanced in Command Rank via command experience which you received from leading squads/platoons and capturing/defending bases.

    Engineers could construct automated turrets (including cloaking and flak types), mines, single person turrets, motion sensors with audible alarms and dragon's teeth barriers which stopped vehicles and allowed infantry to shelter behind them.  All of these could be destroyed or temporarily disabled with either the above mentioned command powers or regular infantry/vehicle weapons.  Only noobs rolled out without at least 1 emp grenade on'em for mine and turret fields heh.

    As I said upthread, these were the things available in the 8 year old PS1 .... I can't wait to see what we can do in PS2.

    All of those Engineer toys are useless when players got 5+ characters with their death ray from the sky EMP strike button.

     

    So why did Sandastuna and Aluvius quit playing Planetside1?

     The orbital strikes are on long cool down timers, think like an hour or so.  Its not as if people just spit them out like machine gun bullets.  They also have an audible and visible charge up in the strike area so it is certainly possible to run out of range or indoors at a base if you are quick enough.

    How many 8 year old games do you still play?  Why does anyone play any new games?  Why didn't game development stop with Pong because people refused to play any games released after it?   /eyeroll

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Member CommonPosts: 2,953

    Originally posted by Aluvius

    Originally posted by Nerf09


    Originally posted by Aluvius

    Planetside 1 had orbital strikes and emp strikes which were great for taking out fixed defenses.  You got these powers as you advanced in Command Rank via command experience which you received from leading squads/platoons and capturing/defending bases.

    Engineers could construct automated turrets (including cloaking and flak types), mines, single person turrets, motion sensors with audible alarms and dragon's teeth barriers which stopped vehicles and allowed infantry to shelter behind them.  All of these could be destroyed or temporarily disabled with either the above mentioned command powers or regular infantry/vehicle weapons.  Only noobs rolled out without at least 1 emp grenade on'em for mine and turret fields heh.

    As I said upthread, these were the things available in the 8 year old PS1 .... I can't wait to see what we can do in PS2.

    All of those Engineer toys are useless when players got 5+ characters with their death ray from the sky EMP strike button.

     

    So why did Sandastuna and Aluvius quit playing Planetside1?

     The orbital strikes are on long cool down timers, think like an hour or so. 

    Doesn't matter.  And the EMP OS is on a 15 minute timer.

    Its not as if people just spit them out like machine gun bullets.  They also have an audible and visible charge up in the strike area so it is certainly possible to run out of range or indoors at a base if you are quick enough.

    All CUD abilities destroyed the game, reveal enemies and EMP OS too, not just the lame death ray from the sky.

    How many 8 year old games do you still play?  Why does anyone play any new games?  Why didn't game development stop with Pong because people refused to play any games released after it?   /eyeroll

    Population dropped off after the 1st year, when more players got their CUD cheat abilities.

    So why did you quit playing Planetside Aluvius?

  • AluviusAluvius Member Posts: 288

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    Originally posted by Aluvius


    Originally posted by Nerf09


    Originally posted by Aluvius

    Planetside 1 had orbital strikes and emp strikes which were great for taking out fixed defenses.  You got these powers as you advanced in Command Rank via command experience which you received from leading squads/platoons and capturing/defending bases.

    Engineers could construct automated turrets (including cloaking and flak types), mines, single person turrets, motion sensors with audible alarms and dragon's teeth barriers which stopped vehicles and allowed infantry to shelter behind them.  All of these could be destroyed or temporarily disabled with either the above mentioned command powers or regular infantry/vehicle weapons.  Only noobs rolled out without at least 1 emp grenade on'em for mine and turret fields heh.

    As I said upthread, these were the things available in the 8 year old PS1 .... I can't wait to see what we can do in PS2.

    All of those Engineer toys are useless when players got 5+ characters with their death ray from the sky EMP strike button.

     

    So why did Sandastuna and Aluvius quit playing Planetside1?

     The orbital strikes are on long cool down timers, think like an hour or so. 

    Doesn't matter.  And the EMP OS is on a 15 minute timer.

    Its not as if people just spit them out like machine gun bullets.  They also have an audible and visible charge up in the strike area so it is certainly possible to run out of range or indoors at a base if you are quick enough.

    All CUD abilities destroyed the game, reveal enemies and EMP OS too, not just the lame death ray from the sky.

    How many 8 year old games do you still play?  Why does anyone play any new games?  Why didn't game development stop with Pong because people refused to play any games released after it?   /eyeroll

    Population dropped off after the 1st year, when more players got their CUD cheat abilities.

    So why did you quit playing Planetside Aluvius?

     Just so you know, the EMP does zero damage.

    No the command rank abilities didn't "destroy" the game, I'm sorry if I refuse to be hysterical with you.  All of the abilities are on timers and each side has the same abilities to use against each other.

    Population of every mmo in existance outside of WoW and EvE have dropped off after some point in time, some 1 month, some 3 months, others a year.  That's the way it goes with mmo's.  They have a finite lifespan.  As I tried to point out before that's why there is a mmo game industry or we'd all be playing text MUD's still. 

    I quit playing because, see above answer ... its. an. eight. year. old. game.  I. like. new. games.

     

    Nerf09 why are you using the mmorpg.com forums instead of talking to your 8 buddies on your local time share 200 baud ascii based BBS? Huh?! Answer me that .. ANSWER ME!!11!!!

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Member CommonPosts: 2,953

    Originally posted by Aluvius

     

     Just so you know, the EMP does zero damage.

    The I win button makes CE useless.

    No the command rank abilities didn't "destroy" the game, I'm sorry if I refuse to be hysterical with you.  All of the abilities are on timers and each side has the same abilities to use against each other.

    Population of every mmo in existance outside of WoW and EvE have dropped off after some point in time, some 1 month, some 3 months, others a year.  That's the way it goes with mmo's.  They have a finite lifespan.  As I tried to point out before that's why there is a mmo game industry or we'd all be playing text MUD's still. 

    I quit playing because, see above answer ... its. an. eight. year. old. game.  I. like. new. games.

     So you just quit, this year?

    Nerf09 why are you using the mmorpg.com forums instead of talking to your 8 buddies on your local time share 200 baud ascii based BBS? Huh?! Answer me that .. ANSWER ME!!11!!!

    So you just quit, this year?

  • AluviusAluvius Member Posts: 288

    Originally posted by Nerf09

    Originally posted by Aluvius


     

     Just so you know, the EMP does zero damage.

    The I win button makes CE useless.

    No the command rank abilities didn't "destroy" the game, I'm sorry if I refuse to be hysterical with you.  All of the abilities are on timers and each side has the same abilities to use against each other.

    Population of every mmo in existance outside of WoW and EvE have dropped off after some point in time, some 1 month, some 3 months, others a year.  That's the way it goes with mmo's.  They have a finite lifespan.  As I tried to point out before that's why there is a mmo game industry or we'd all be playing text MUD's still. 

    I quit playing because, see above answer ... its. an. eight. year. old. game.  I. like. new. games.

     So you just quit, this year?

    Nerf09 why are you using the mmorpg.com forums instead of talking to your 8 buddies on your local time share 200 baud ascii based BBS? Huh?! Answer me that .. ANSWER ME!!11!!!

    So you just quit, this year?

     So yes you got me, its only now 8 years old. I think the last time I loaded it up was in 2008-ish, yes what a horrible game that I only played it for 5 years.  However, since you most likely still won't accept this more detailed answer, let me really blow your mind.

    Wait for it ...

    I'm still subscribed to PS1 since I have a station pass sub lol.

    So by your logic (some famous logician that I don't know just rolled in his grave) ... I never quit and the call is coming from your own house!!1 <scary music crescendo>

     

    Back to the only point you even semi reasonably addressed, its not an "I Win Button" if everyone has it.   Which before you can fast type it out, was actually your assertion up thread.  That the game was ruineeeeed by everyone having these powers.  Isn't that the textbook definition of balance?

    Also an EMP strike doesn't have enough of an aoe range to take out a full CE field, it only disables turrets for a few seconds and a mine pattern is one of the quickest things you can lay back down.  Which I guess translates into Unreasonablese as "ohmygodafewsecondswehavelostiquitraaaage".

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Member CommonPosts: 2,953

    Originally posted by Aluvius

     

     So yes you got me, its only now 8 years old. I think the last time I loaded it up was in 2008-ish, yes what a horrible game that I only played it for 5 years.  However, since you most likely still won't accept this more detailed answer, let me really blow your mind.

    Wait for it ...

    I'm still subscribed to PS1 since I have a station pass sub lol.

    So by your logic (some famous logician that I don't know just rolled in his grave) ... I never quit and the call is coming from your own house!!1 

     

    Back to the only point you even semi reasonably addressed, its not an "I Win Button" if everyone has it.   Which before you can fast type it out, was actually your assertion up thread.  That the game was ruineeeeed by everyone having these powers.  Isn't that the textbook definition of balance?

    Also an EMP strike doesn't have enough of an aoe range to take out a full CE field, it only disables turrets for a few seconds and a mine pattern is one of the quickest things you can lay back down.  Which I guess translates into Unreasonablese as "ohmygodafewsecondswehavelostiquitraaaage".

    It is still an "I Win Button" if everyone has it, it destroyed the game, like Jedi which is available to everyone destroyed SWG.

    The EMP has enough range to take out a full CE field, and a mine pattern isn't one of the quickest things you can lay back down if your in the middle of a battle.  Once mines are gone you fall back, which pretty much negates the use of mines as defensive tools in the first place.

     

    SO why did you quit....PLAYING?

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