OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Wayshuba
First, since the context of my original post seems to mean that many think I meant we should get things for free - The bait - Turbine tells everyone they can use points for expansions (a pre-order is not different, it is still the expansion). They have a point stock up sale just prior to announcing the pre-order. Some, like myself, spend $50 to get points. The BAIT has been taken.
The Switch- Turbine offers pre-order, but for cash only (huh, isn't the $50 I just spent on TPs cash also). They also take the time to say that the pre-order goodies will not be available when the TP version of the product is release. The SWITCH has been made. We told you you can use TPs, and you still can, but you won't get something as good as spending your cash again on this shiny new expansion.
Wtf, who in their right mind would spend money on points for an expansion before you know exactly how much it will cost or how it will be offered for purchase?
The long term customers supporting Turbine that were encouraged to do so by Turbine itself? Even before F2P launched Sapience mentioned that one could buy and accumulate them to make large purchases like expansions. He conveniently left out that they wouldn't be honoring them for pre-orders.
The xpac will make it into the store. I'll wait for it to go on sale before I buy it. Hopefully the raid will be separate so I don't have to pay for that.
You can still buy them with Turbine points, so he never lied.
From Wikipedia: The goal of the bait-and-switch is to persuade buyers to purchase the substitute goods as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or service advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product or a similar product with a higher margin.
I'd bet my damn testicles that when RoI is available on the lotro store it will cost the equivlent of 29.99 in turbine points just like MoM and SoM work now.
OR you can stop being a bum and pay the money now and get some pretty sweet preorder stuff.
EDIT: PS, one of those pretty sweet preorder items is 15 bucks worth of a turbine points.
First, since the context of my original post seems to mean that many think I meant we should get things for free - I don't. I dropped $300 on TP to "support" Turbine in developing content. I have no problem spending cash to support a company that is straight up. Turbine is that no longer.
Your posting of the definition is good so I will expand further:
The bait - Turbine tells everyone they can use points for expansions (a pre-order is not different, it is still the expansion). They have a point stock up sale just prior to announcing the pre-order. Some, like myself, spend $50 to get points. The BAIT has been taken.
The Switch- Turbine offers pre-order, but for cash only (huh, isn't the $50 I just spent on TPs cash also). They also take the time to say that the pre-order goodies will not be available when the TP version of the product is release. The SWITCH has been made. We told you you can use TPs, and you still can, but you won't get something as good as spending your cash again on this shiny new expansion.
I am amazed how few people realize that what they have done is the CLASSIC bait-and-switch. I am quite familiar with business law which is why I had to leave LOTRO after this as I know this is a very questionable business practice and I cannot be involved with a company that has resorted to such tactics for sake of gaining revenue. It has nothing to do with being cheap, not wanting to pay for an expansion, or expecting something for free, it has to do with Turbine changing to a company that has resorted to some unethical methods of business.
Players will have access to all of the bonus items including the new mount, cosmetic cloak and armor, in-game title and XP boost immediately after purchase. The Rise of Isengard expansion itself will be available to play on September 27, 2011. These special offers will only be available for a limited time. For more information, please visit www.lotro.com.
No where in the press release do they mention that the pre-order offer will be available on the Turbine store and they DO mention its for a limited time. If you read that and decided to buy 50 USD worth of Turbine points then that was you're decision. Stop trying to blame the company for it.
EDIT: Also refering to the content of the expansion, they clearly list what is coming with the expansion and there will most likely be devblogs detailing certain aspects. Whether you believe the content is worth the price is a choice you must make as a consumer and that goes with all the content in the Turbine store. Furthermore you paying a subscription or buying a certain amount of TP doesn't mean the company is required to update their game or provide a certain amount of content.
The 14.99 subscription fee non-f2p games require is to pay for admission onto their server, not to create new content.
From Wikipedia: The goal of the bait-and-switch is to persuade buyers to purchase the substitute goods as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or service advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product or a similar product with a higher margin.
I'd bet my damn testicles that when RoI is available on the lotro store it will cost the equivlent of 29.99 in turbine points just like MoM and SoM work now.
OR you can stop being a bum and pay the money now and get some pretty sweet preorder stuff.
EDIT: PS, one of those pretty sweet preorder items is 15 bucks worth of a turbine points.
First, since the context of my original post seems to mean that many think I meant we should get things for free - I don't. I dropped $300 on TP to "support" Turbine in developing content. I have no problem spending cash to support a company that is straight up. Turbine is that no longer.
Your posting of the definition is good so I will expand further:
The bait - Turbine tells everyone they can use points for expansions (a pre-order is not different, it is still the expansion). They have a point stock up sale just prior to announcing the pre-order. Some, like myself, spend $50 to get points. The BAIT has been taken.
The Switch- Turbine offers pre-order, but for cash only (huh, isn't the $50 I just spent on TPs cash also). They also take the time to say that the pre-order goodies will not be available when the TP version of the product is release. The SWITCH has been made. We told you you can use TPs, and you still can, but you won't get something as good as spending your cash again on this shiny new expansion.
I am amazed how few people realize that what they have done is the CLASSIC bait-and-switch. I am quite familiar with business law which is why I had to leave LOTRO after this as I know this is a very questionable business practice and I cannot be involved with a company that has resorted to such tactics for sake of gaining revenue. It has nothing to do with being cheap, not wanting to pay for an expansion, or expecting something for free, it has to do with Turbine changing to a company that has resorted to some unethical methods of business.
Players will have access to all of the bonus items including the new mount, cosmetic cloak and armor, in-game title and XP boost immediately after purchase. The Rise of Isengard expansion itself will be available to play on September 27, 2011. These special offers will only be available for a limited time. For more information, please visit www.lotro.com.
No where in the press release do they mention that the pre-order offer will be available on the Turbine store and they DO mention its for a limited time. If you read that and decided to buy 50 USD worth of Turbine points then that was you're decision. Stop trying to blame the company for it.
EDIT: Also refering to the content of the expansion, they clearly list what is coming with the expansion and there will most likely be devblogs detailing certain aspects. Whether you believe the content is worth the price is a choice you must make as a consumer and that goes with all the content in the Turbine store. Furthermore you paying a subscription or buying a certain amount of TP doesn't mean the company is required to update their game or provide a certain amount of content.
The 14.99 subscription fee non-f2p games require is to pay for admission onto their server, not to create new content.
Turbine themselves stated when F2P went live that Trubine Points would be used for all CURRENT AND FUTURE EXPANSIONS. All current expansions are available in the store. So please tell me why anyone is ASSUMING otherwise. No one is assuming as this was stated by Turbine themselves. Secondly, a pre-order is still an expansion. While I am sure Turbine will offer the expansion with points when it is released, they have also clarified it will not contain the same items as the expansion as bought separately.
Stop saying people assumed or it is their fault when this is the fault of lack of clear communication on Turbine's part. In my opinion, that communication of ommission was very intentional. Which is why we have Safe Harbor statements required by law as example. This is not the fault of any customers. Too many were deceived to say it is all their fault.
Come on people, wake up and stop looking through rose colored glasses.
This is from Turbine's own website:
16. Can Free/Premium players earn in-game points, and buy anything (including expansions) that VIP members can?
So please tell me what is the difference with a pre-order of an expansion and the expansion? Nothing. Yes this is from Turbine's own site and you are saying players are assuming things?
to the op, ive paid for all my expansions and bought a lifetime sub, i recently bought isengard as well so im not sure how you managed to pay a 3 month sub and get them free, but i did not get them offers in the eu or if they were availible it was some special limited deal/ sale
Playing: FFXIV Future: wishing for SWG 2, World of Warcraft Classic Played: Most current and extinct MMO's - 18 Years in....
You will be able to pay for future expansions with your TP, just not now.
Sorry, but complaining about not being able to pay for an expansion months ahead with TP when more then half their playerbase can't even subscribe without CCs at all strikes me as .... trolling.
Honestly, get your priorities straight. CCs are rare outside the US, we use debit cards or other systems and we make up a pretty big part of Turbines customer base now. Fix the imporatant stuff before complaining about not getting some stupid preorder cloak or horse.
Besides those TP sales are like every couple weeks, explain again why you had to buy those TP months in advance for an expansion we knew nothing about at all, least of all the price. And if you can explain that explain why you though the TP version would be even remotely comparable to the "retail" version, when MoM and SoM demostrated the exact opposite.
Sorry, but having worse buisness sense than my 10 yo nephew is not something that can be blamed on Turbine. Besides you should show some pride in our cutthroat capitalistic economy system, you think you can go from washing dishes to being a millionaire without screwing someone over on the way?
Sorry, but having worse buisness sense than my 10 yo nephew is not something that can be blamed on Turbine. Besides you should show some pride in our cutthroat capitalistic economy system, you think you can go from washing dishes to being a millionaire without screwing someone over on the way?
I don't know what you do for a living but I am CEO of my own successful multi--million dollar global technology company and have an eight figure net worth, so don't assume I don't have any business sense. I know a small pack of investors in my company that would beg to differ with your presumptious comment. I am successful in business and happen to enjoy MMOs as entertainment.
Also, as a business owner I would NEVER contemplate doing something as stupid as Turbine has done with this pre-order situation. It undermines the entire business model they have created with TP as they have now violated the "trust factor" with many cusotmers and put many in a situation where they will 'wait and see' what the company does in the future before ever making purchases.
Personally, if one of my marketing managers had done this and I saw the feedback of disgruntled and angry customers that has proliferated the Turbine forums on my companies site, then I know a marketing manager that would quickly be out of a job and I would be directing damage control through our PR department.
Turbine has screwed up big time with this, not only in what they have done here but also in completely ignoring the negativity from their customer base they have generated over it.
I had a very long and extremely offensive reply to this thread, which i deleted cause i didn't like the grammer i used in it.
The short version as bullet points:
This is not a Machiavellian scheme, it was utterly predictable.
TP have not equal value as Dollar, thus expecting same service/product is unreasonable.
Someone trying to sell you something is not the most trustworthy source regarding said something.
Sometimes what Sapience is NOT saying tells alot more than what he IS saying.
Gullible. Google it.
Getting tired of people getting screwed over by their own expectations and complaining about it.
The quotes do not mean what you think they mean. Surely that should be obvious atleast in hindsight.
On the difference between an expansion and a preorder ... they are completely different. Thats like asking where the difference is between a bicycle and a credit card payment. Sure you can buy a bicycle with a CC, but that does not mean every CC payment is a bicycle.
Turbine said you will be able to buy current and future expansions in the store for TP. They said that many months ago, so any expansion released after that statement is a future expansion, and the expansions already existing at the time of the statement are what they call current expansions. Makes sense doesn't it?
YOU read into that that you will be able to purchase expansions with TP before they get released. Which is something completely different. Nowhere did they say you will be able to buy expansions for TP before they get released. Infact they didn't even say we would be able to buy expansions prior to release at all.
Also they said you can buy everything as a F2P/premium that a VIP can buy(with named exceptions). Well can VIPs preorder the expansion in the store and F2P can't? No, neither can preorder for TP so again the statement is true.
So yeah its your own fault because you mixed up what they said with what you THINK they said. Its not the same.
I had a very long and extremely offensive reply to this thread, which i deleted cause i didn't like the grammer i used in it.
The short version as bullet points:
This is not a Machiavellian scheme, it was utterly predictable.
TP have not equal value as Dollar, thus expecting same service/product is unreasonable.
Someone trying to sell you something is not the most trustworthy source regarding said something.
Sometimes what Sapience is NOT saying tells alot more than what he IS saying.
Gullible. Google it.
Getting tired of people getting screwed over by their own expectations and complaining about it.
The quotes do not mean what you think they mean. Surely that should be obvious atleast in hindsight.
On the difference between an expansion and a preorder ... they are completely different. Thats like asking where the difference is between a bicycle and a credit card payment. Sure you can buy a bicycle with a CC, but that does not mean every CC payment is a bicycle.
Turbine said you will be able to buy current and future expansions in the store for TP. They said that many months ago, so any expansion released after that statement is a future expansion, and the expansions already existing at the time of the statement are what they call current expansions. Makes sense doesn't it?
YOU read into that that you will be able to purchase expansions with TP before they get released. Which is something completely different. Nowhere did they say you will be able to buy expansions for TP before they get released. Infact they didn't even say we would be able to buy expansions prior to release at all.
Also they said you can buy everything as a F2P/premium that a VIP can buy(with named exceptions). Well can VIPs preorder the expansion in the store and F2P can't? No, neither can preorder for TP so again the statement is true.
So yeah its your own fault because you mixed up what they said with what you THINK they said. Its not the same.
This QFE a zillion times over. I dont care how many ppl come in here pretending to be CEO of a multimillion dollar company (on the internet, arent we all) and saying Rocketeer is wrong. Assumption is your enemy guys, you have nodoby else to blame but yourself. It doesnt matter how many quotes you post Wayshuba, at the very least with the advantage of hindsight can you not see that everything is assumption on your side?
So you like falling for the freemium BS only to a certain point.
F2P MMOs are bleh. You either find it worth putting money into, or you don't. But freemium is made for those that don't think things through. Theres something about it that makes people think they have to keep playing and dumping money into it, investing in nothing. The Freemium model was designed to drain money from us, and you're all letting it do just that.
Making an MMO good enough so that people keep playing and buying exspansions and CS things (name changes, character slots, cosmetic costumes, things like that) should be enough to keep an MMO running. If your MMO is so crappy that you can't keep a loyal fanbase/community without having them commit a ton of money, then that MMO shouldn't exist because games are suppose to be fun.
These people aren't designing games for your enjoyment though, their designing them so that you keep using them. Try and think about it for 5 minutes. People playing these garbage MMOs are trying to reach a goal and aren't having fun while reasching the goal. The only joy they get is when they reach the goal. And putting money into the game lets you reach new goals. Wake up so that companies can start making good games, or so they can quit and make room for those that want to make good games. This is getting beyond annoying.
Who are you to tell people they are not having fun. LoTR's being freeminum allows me to play it when I want. With sub base I can only subscribe to two games as my set limit. With Freeminum I can jump in and out with little hassel. I can pay when I want what I want and how I want. Unlike some here I play games for my enjoyment...not so that I can compete with others for some imaginary goal of a shiny or a special that I can lord over others in a game...that is right a game. Frankly the only people I think complain about this are those that need to find their self worth in having something in a game that others do not have and when that shifted from your time spent in yoru basement to being more open for others to get to people freaked out. Their specialness in games fell away...their personal enjoyment being based on what they had that others did not was stripped away. All they were left with was a tee shirt with a jolt cola stain and the walls of their parents basements.
QFT. I love Lotro freemium model too. It give me the flexability that I need. I could not really justify holding subs for my wife and I. With the freemium model we can both play and pay only when we want to.
As far as the expansion not being free. Well if memory serves me correctly most games do charge for them. Sure some don't, but most of the big names do. So what is the big deal? We should have to pay for it because they have to pay real people to work on it.
ALL game companies make games to not only entertain their fans but also to make money. If there was no money to be made the game would not be made. Game companies are a business not a charity. It really cracks me up about some of the stupid things people complain about on these forums.
YOU read into that that you will be able to purchase expansions with TP before they get released. Which is something completely different. Nowhere did they say you will be able to buy expansions for TP before they get released. Infact they didn't even say we would be able to buy expansions prior to release at all.
No, I did not read into it. You are correct in your assessment that they did not say anything about expansions being available in pre-order since the released of F2P. However, since the release of F2P they established precedent on their own currency methods which they changed with this. Turbine set these expectations, arguing the "letter" of their claims doesn't make it better.
Secondly, your credit card example is not a good analogy to the situation. Perhaps this is better. You have a cash store credit card that you purchased with cash to fill the card that the store said you will be able to use for all future bike purchases. Now, a new bike model is coming available and you go into the store three months before it is released to pre-order the bike and the store tells you your cash credit card is not valid, only normal credit cards are accepted. You look at them and ask what the difference is without a response. You are also told that with the store cash credit card they are unsure what the price will be when released, if you can get it as a whole bike or in separate parts you will pay separately for, and even if the bike non pre-order will be available the same day as the pre-order bike. This is exactly what Turbine has currently published regarding the expansion coming in September.
At the end of the day, the bike is a bike - pre-order or not does not make it any different at all. One is paid for in advance, the other after availablility. However, it is obvious you are pushing for the pre-order by making it seem much better than using your store credit card that you were told you could use. Now they are technically telling you that you can still use it, but they aren't making it exactly sound like it is the best option.
To your comment about being gullible - There are dozens of customers on the Turbine forums expressing disappointment about the same issue. Which is arrogant to dimiss that they are all gullible. Just like Apple tried to dismiss the dropped calls with the iPhone. They said it was they way customers were using it. Were they gullible too? Were they not intelligent enough to use the phone the right way? No. When several customers are complaining of similar issues - as is the case with the pre-order situation - the fault definately lies with the company; not the customers.
One last example that is also a reciprical point. Last year, CodeMasters announced a Lifetime membership deal in Europe that many Europeans took advantage of. Less than two months later, Turbine announced F2P. There were many customers in Europe asking about refunds since they were not aware of the impending F2P and felt 'duped' knowing that Codemasters/Turbine knew this was coming. Were these customers gullible because Codemasters/Turbine DIDN'T say they were going F2P shortly or were they in fact duped so the company could make a cash grab before going F2P? Turbine seems to be the ones building a track record of upsetting customers for NOT saying anything. I find it hard to believe that so many customers are suddenly gullible.
Finally, cut throat capitalism is for business vs. business, not for exploiting customers. Practice that style of business on customers and you upset so many customers they fail to do business with you entirely. It isn't exactly smart business.
Yes, you did. You have said as much in your own posts.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
All I know is that I have not played LoTRO in a few months and was looking forward to the upcoming expansion and hopping back into things when it was released. I had previously bought Turbine Points when they were on sale and was saving them specifically for the expansion. Them pulling this, I have zero desire to play the game again at all.
It really did get dull for me anyway before I stopped playing earlier this year, and am finding I am enjoying reading the books more than I did playing the game.
Yup Turbine's management definately seems to be in the habit of shooting itself in the foot since the F2P move.
In business, ones reputation is critical to LONG term success. Setting up situations where customers have false expectations of what they are getting for thier money, where they feel they've not been dealt fairly with, or where they have cause to question the credability of your offers is the surest way to hamstring the long term viability of a company.
Sure, you'll always have a few people with expectations that are completely off the reservation... you don't really need to worry about those. But if you've got significant numbers of people who are upset about how you've upheld your offers to them, that's a problem. It doesn't even matter if you are technicaly right and they are technicaly wrong...they are the customers.... If they PERCIEVE that they are being treated unfairly....there is a good chance that you are not only loosing current business from them but loosing the OPPORTUNITY to do any FUTURE business with them. That's what's called opportunity cost.
Unfortunately, it's a mistake alot of (bad) business decision makers these days. You maximize the companies short term proffits but hamstring it's long term viability. It's kinda like a timber company cutting down every single tree in a forest and not planting any new ones. It's going to have a great profit next quarter, since it's maximized it's production (trees cut down) and minimized it's expenses (cost of replanting).... but what does it do the quarter AFTER that when it has no trees to harvest?
It's more then just a handfull of people that have been unhappy about how Turbine has been structuring it's offerings. To me, that means it hasn't been nearly carefull enough about setting proper expectations from it's customers, clearly communicating those expectations and making sure that it's future offerings are consistant with the expectations it has set up.
Unfortunately, it's a mistake alot of (bad) business decision makers these days. You maximize the companies short term proffits but hamstring it's long term viability. It's kinda like a timber company cutting down every single tree in a forest and not planting any new ones. It's going to have a great profit next quarter, since it's maximized it's production (trees cut down) and minimized it's expenses (cost of replanting).... but what does it do the quarter AFTER that when it has no trees to harvest?
That is an excellent analogy. I am one of the trees they cut, and I doubt a seed was planted in my place given I was a happy paying VIP customer. For me it became apparent that Turbine didn't give 2 cents for their paying customers who've been supporting them from day one when they released the Enedwaith expansion. We wait over a year for some quality content after the Moria expansion and everything since then was geared toward the f2p movement.
I think the writing is on the wall... Once the license expires, this game is toast. If feels like Turbine is hell bent on squeezing every last dime out of this title before they go their separate way. Like GrumpyMel2 said, it seems Turbine has not given any attention to the future and this doesn't go well for a company with plans of renewing a license. I won't even think about coming back to this game unless Isengard is a knock you off your feet expansion, and it doesn't seem like that will be a case since Turbine is about more of the same with a wrinkle here and there.
As far as the expansion not being free. Well if memory serves me correctly most games do charge for them. Sure some don't, but most of the big names do. So what is the big deal? We should have to pay for it because they have to pay real people to work on it.
P2P and B2P games usually but not always charges for expansions yes. But F2P games don't charge for expansions.
As far as I know is it only Turbine, SOE and possibly now Funcom that does that.
With the freemium model we really should get the zones for free but they should charge you for stuff like in the original game, and in LOTROs case that should include charging you for the quests.
It's $10 for three zones and ten levels(at the most basic version)... that's a better deal than the rest of the game. LOTRO is freemium it's not f2p. In all honesty it's still a better deal than 99% of the other f2p games. You will have to put something down but once you do it's yours. All I can say is I don't see anything but a win for the consumer here.
Yup Turbine's management definately seems to be in the habit of shooting itself in the foot since the F2P move.
In business, ones reputation is critical to LONG term success. Setting up situations where customers have false expectations of what they are getting for thier money, where they feel they've not been dealt fairly with, or where they have cause to question the credability of your offers is the surest way to hamstring the long term viability of a company.
Sure, you'll always have a few people with expectations that are completely off the reservation... you don't really need to worry about those. But if you've got significant numbers of people who are upset about how you've upheld your offers to them, that's a problem. It doesn't even matter if you are technicaly right and they are technicaly wrong...they are the customers.... If they PERCIEVE that they are being treated unfairly....there is a good chance that you are not only loosing current business from them but loosing the OPPORTUNITY to do any FUTURE business with them. That's what's called opportunity cost.
Unfortunately, it's a mistake alot of (bad) business decision makers these days. You maximize the companies short term proffits but hamstring it's long term viability. It's kinda like a timber company cutting down every single tree in a forest and not planting any new ones. It's going to have a great profit next quarter, since it's maximized it's production (trees cut down) and minimized it's expenses (cost of replanting).... but what does it do the quarter AFTER that when it has no trees to harvest?
It's more then just a handfull of people that have been unhappy about how Turbine has been structuring it's offerings. To me, that means it hasn't been nearly carefull enough about setting proper expectations from it's customers, clearly communicating those expectations and making sure that it's future offerings are consistant with the expectations it has set up.
Who has been unhappy in a reasonable way?
Everyone I see who has a problem with LotRO free to play read things wrong and go into a {mod edit} rage without ever making any sense.
The three types of the expansion also shows the move away from offering deals to offering added bonus at full lotro store price. The first expansion pack is offerd at 29.99 instead of included freee in a 99.99 game card purchase, which would have followed thier past buisness model. It offers a restricted base set of bonuses thats in all three expansion pack types. The second expasion goes for 39.99 and includes 1000 turbine points, which is no more then adding 10.00 for 1000 turbine points, not such a deal when the lotro will sell you that. Then we come to the third expansion package, which is 49.99, which has everything of the second expansion and then adds a bunch of F2P quest packs in it for that extra 10.00 again. So your pretty much paying 29.99 for the base expansion and full price for extra tubine points and if your not F2P, but a member, and you go for the 49.99 one, your paying even more for F2P content that you already have included with your membership.
30 euros for exapnsion including some ingame items as cloak, title etc. ..pretty standard
for 40 euros u get 1000 tp more..so the 10 euros + mount + cosmetic set etc. so more ingame things IF u like that.
and if u dont want 49 euros one..dont buy it..its that easy
What would have been more reasonable and less greedy was to offer a free expansion pack with the 99.99 - 12-month subscribion plan to match thier past buisness model.
some people like 29 euros for an expansion..forcing them to pasy 99 euros would ruin it and shoo away all f2p and possible vips
ok thats true..it is pretty sad that VIPs cant spent TP at extra cosmetics etc becuz they have to save tp for an expansion idd...if they really need the money they could make VIP 1 - 2 euros expensiver per month but include that every expansion or new update that needs to be bought is free for those guys..but alot of people will get angry becuz of that to.
The only greed I see here is from the players with the want something for nothing mentality who think they are entitled to have everything given to them without paying anything and when they don't get it they bitch and moan about it.
That is exactly the same thought I had when I started reading the first pages.
Lifer here and pretty happy with it. To date haven't used 6kr (1 dollar) in the game store and been relying on my turbine points which i get every month (a pretty effing sweet deal.).
The thing people seem to hang up on is something about expansion packs that used to be free if the person bought a 3 month subscription plan? I have been playing lotro off and on since launch and I have never seen any offer including such a package in EU ever.
Calling a company greedy for having an in-game store is such a ridiculous allegation, it would be like calling a store owner greedy because he sells goods that you are not required to buy to enjoy life. If you do not want resurrection stones or stat boosts or xp bonus, do not buy them.
That is exactly the same thought I had when I started reading the first pages.
Lifer here and pretty happy with it. To date haven't used 6kr (1 dollar) in the game store and been relying on my turbine points which i get every month (a pretty effing sweet deal.).
Good job. Not everyone likes to grind for TP.......... but wait that has nothing to do with this thread.
The thing people seem to hang up on is something about expansion packs that used to be free if the person bought a 3 month subscription plan? I have been playing lotro off and on since launch and I have never seen any offer including such a package in EU ever.
That is because Turbine had a partner that published the EU version. If they didn't want to offer the free expansion with a long term subscriptionj, then there is nothing they can do about it.
Calling a company greedy for having an in-game store is such a ridiculous allegation, it would be like calling a store owner greedy because he sells goods that you are not required to buy to enjoy life. If you do not want resurrection stones or stat boosts or xp bonus, do not buy them.
P2W shops have nothing to do with normal retail services. A proper analogy would be to call them a golf shop on a golf course that limits players to a putter, an iron, a driver, and 9 basic holes. The rest costs money that can be purchased at the golf shop.
That is exactly the same thought I had when I started reading the first pages.
Lifer here and pretty happy with it. To date haven't used 6kr (1 dollar) in the game store and been relying on my turbine points which i get every month (a pretty effing sweet deal.).
Good job. Not everyone likes to grind for TP.......... but wait that has nothing to do with this thread.
The thing people seem to hang up on is something about expansion packs that used to be free if the person bought a 3 month subscription plan? I have been playing lotro off and on since launch and I have never seen any offer including such a package in EU ever.
That is because Turbine had a partner that published the EU version. If they didn't want to offer the free expansion with a long term subscriptionj, then there is nothing they can do about it.
Calling a company greedy for having an in-game store is such a ridiculous allegation, it would be like calling a store owner greedy because he sells goods that you are not required to buy to enjoy life. If you do not want resurrection stones or stat boosts or xp bonus, do not buy them.
P2W shops have nothing to do with normal retail services. A proper analogy would be to call them a golf shop on a golf course that limits players to a putter, an iron, a driver, and 9 basic holes. The rest costs money that can be purchased at the golf shop.
He doesn't grind for TP, as he said he's a life time sub and gets 500 for free every month. Which is the same deal you get when you pay $99 for a year VIP sub. Why people are complaining about this is beyond me. $99 for a year of play is a great deal and if that's to much for you then you can still play the game for free. It takes some grinding but if you want it free then you shouldn't complain. Anways, if you playing an MMO and $99 a year is to much for you, you maybe shouldn't be playing MMOs in the first place.
As for calling it a golf course sure it's a golf course and if you keep playing with an iron, a driver, and 9 basic holes you will eventually get a free invite to the other 9 holes. Included in the free invite you'll get a caddy, and a full set of clubs all for just playing the basics.
People complaining about the expansion need to take a look at it. It's only $29.99 for the basic addtion. That's a pretty decent price for an expansion.
Listen, the saying "nothing in life is free" rings true in everything to include MMOs. I don't understand why people think they should be handed everything for free. Turbine is a buisness and like any buisness they need to make money. So, if you want more then just the basics (without having to grind) stop being so damn cheap and pay the sub fee.
The only thing I got out of that response you sendt was the fact you had neither played the game, nor concentrated on writing anything back to me more than an improved analogy to the outro of my statement.
EDIT: You did know about the reason behind EU not having such a subscription.
Comments
You can still buy them with Turbine points, so he never lied.
The following is quoted from the press release when the game was first officially announced by Turbine, Link: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?399897-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-Online%99-Rise-of-Isengard%99-to-launch-on-September-27th
Players will have access to all of the bonus items including the new mount, cosmetic cloak and armor, in-game title and XP boost immediately after purchase. The Rise of Isengard expansion itself will be available to play on September 27, 2011. These special offers will only be available for a limited time. For more information, please visit www.lotro.com.
No where in the press release do they mention that the pre-order offer will be available on the Turbine store and they DO mention its for a limited time. If you read that and decided to buy 50 USD worth of Turbine points then that was you're decision. Stop trying to blame the company for it.
EDIT: Also refering to the content of the expansion, they clearly list what is coming with the expansion and there will most likely be devblogs detailing certain aspects. Whether you believe the content is worth the price is a choice you must make as a consumer and that goes with all the content in the Turbine store. Furthermore you paying a subscription or buying a certain amount of TP doesn't mean the company is required to update their game or provide a certain amount of content.
The 14.99 subscription fee non-f2p games require is to pay for admission onto their server, not to create new content.
Turbine themselves stated when F2P went live that Trubine Points would be used for all CURRENT AND FUTURE EXPANSIONS. All current expansions are available in the store. So please tell me why anyone is ASSUMING otherwise. No one is assuming as this was stated by Turbine themselves. Secondly, a pre-order is still an expansion. While I am sure Turbine will offer the expansion with points when it is released, they have also clarified it will not contain the same items as the expansion as bought separately.
Stop saying people assumed or it is their fault when this is the fault of lack of clear communication on Turbine's part. In my opinion, that communication of ommission was very intentional. Which is why we have Safe Harbor statements required by law as example. This is not the fault of any customers. Too many were deceived to say it is all their fault.
Come on people, wake up and stop looking through rose colored glasses.
This is from Turbine's own website:
16. Can Free/Premium players earn in-game points, and buy anything (including expansions) that VIP members can?
YES. According to Sapience in this very topic, "There will be ways in game to earn various amounts of Turbine points. In theory, you could never spend a penny in the store but still acquire enough Turbine Points to purchase everything you would want. It would take a great deal of effort, but it would be possible." There are a few exceptions to this, such as PvMP, but almost everything in the game can be acquired by playing without a subscription, and there are even plans to bring PvMP to Premium players.
2. Can you buy expansions with Turbine Points?
Yes.
So please tell me what is the difference with a pre-order of an expansion and the expansion? Nothing. Yes this is from Turbine's own site and you are saying players are assuming things?
to the op, ive paid for all my expansions and bought a lifetime sub, i recently bought isengard as well so im not sure how you managed to pay a 3 month sub and get them free, but i did not get them offers in the eu or if they were availible it was some special limited deal/ sale
Playing: FFXIV
Future: wishing for SWG 2, World of Warcraft Classic
Played: Most current and extinct MMO's - 18 Years in....
Interesting Fact - I own 27 Tarantula's
You will be able to pay for future expansions with your TP, just not now.
Sorry, but complaining about not being able to pay for an expansion months ahead with TP when more then half their playerbase can't even subscribe without CCs at all strikes me as .... trolling.
Honestly, get your priorities straight. CCs are rare outside the US, we use debit cards or other systems and we make up a pretty big part of Turbines customer base now. Fix the imporatant stuff before complaining about not getting some stupid preorder cloak or horse.
Besides those TP sales are like every couple weeks, explain again why you had to buy those TP months in advance for an expansion we knew nothing about at all, least of all the price. And if you can explain that explain why you though the TP version would be even remotely comparable to the "retail" version, when MoM and SoM demostrated the exact opposite.
Sorry, but having worse buisness sense than my 10 yo nephew is not something that can be blamed on Turbine. Besides you should show some pride in our cutthroat capitalistic economy system, you think you can go from washing dishes to being a millionaire without screwing someone over on the way?
I don't know what you do for a living but I am CEO of my own successful multi--million dollar global technology company and have an eight figure net worth, so don't assume I don't have any business sense. I know a small pack of investors in my company that would beg to differ with your presumptious comment. I am successful in business and happen to enjoy MMOs as entertainment.
Also, as a business owner I would NEVER contemplate doing something as stupid as Turbine has done with this pre-order situation. It undermines the entire business model they have created with TP as they have now violated the "trust factor" with many cusotmers and put many in a situation where they will 'wait and see' what the company does in the future before ever making purchases.
Personally, if one of my marketing managers had done this and I saw the feedback of disgruntled and angry customers that has proliferated the Turbine forums on my companies site, then I know a marketing manager that would quickly be out of a job and I would be directing damage control through our PR department.
Turbine has screwed up big time with this, not only in what they have done here but also in completely ignoring the negativity from their customer base they have generated over it.
I had a very long and extremely offensive reply to this thread, which i deleted cause i didn't like the grammer i used in it.
The short version as bullet points:
This is not a Machiavellian scheme, it was utterly predictable.
TP have not equal value as Dollar, thus expecting same service/product is unreasonable.
Someone trying to sell you something is not the most trustworthy source regarding said something.
Sometimes what Sapience is NOT saying tells alot more than what he IS saying.
Gullible. Google it.
Getting tired of people getting screwed over by their own expectations and complaining about it.
The quotes do not mean what you think they mean. Surely that should be obvious atleast in hindsight.
On the difference between an expansion and a preorder ... they are completely different. Thats like asking where the difference is between a bicycle and a credit card payment. Sure you can buy a bicycle with a CC, but that does not mean every CC payment is a bicycle.
Turbine said you will be able to buy current and future expansions in the store for TP. They said that many months ago, so any expansion released after that statement is a future expansion, and the expansions already existing at the time of the statement are what they call current expansions. Makes sense doesn't it?
YOU read into that that you will be able to purchase expansions with TP before they get released. Which is something completely different. Nowhere did they say you will be able to buy expansions for TP before they get released. Infact they didn't even say we would be able to buy expansions prior to release at all.
Also they said you can buy everything as a F2P/premium that a VIP can buy(with named exceptions). Well can VIPs preorder the expansion in the store and F2P can't? No, neither can preorder for TP so again the statement is true.
So yeah its your own fault because you mixed up what they said with what you THINK they said. Its not the same.
Tough break I guess?
I paid 49.99 for the xpack, got zones to level in from 1 to 75. 1000 points for riding skill and some virtue slots.
And don't have to worry about a monthly fee ever again.
There's deals to be found. But the world is full of bad consumers.
This QFE a zillion times over. I dont care how many ppl come in here pretending to be CEO of a multimillion dollar company (on the internet, arent we all) and saying Rocketeer is wrong. Assumption is your enemy guys, you have nodoby else to blame but yourself. It doesnt matter how many quotes you post Wayshuba, at the very least with the advantage of hindsight can you not see that everything is assumption on your side?
QFT. I love Lotro freemium model too. It give me the flexability that I need. I could not really justify holding subs for my wife and I. With the freemium model we can both play and pay only when we want to.
As far as the expansion not being free. Well if memory serves me correctly most games do charge for them. Sure some don't, but most of the big names do. So what is the big deal? We should have to pay for it because they have to pay real people to work on it.
ALL game companies make games to not only entertain their fans but also to make money. If there was no money to be made the game would not be made. Game companies are a business not a charity. It really cracks me up about some of the stupid things people complain about on these forums.
No, I did not read into it. You are correct in your assessment that they did not say anything about expansions being available in pre-order since the released of F2P. However, since the release of F2P they established precedent on their own currency methods which they changed with this. Turbine set these expectations, arguing the "letter" of their claims doesn't make it better.
Secondly, your credit card example is not a good analogy to the situation. Perhaps this is better. You have a cash store credit card that you purchased with cash to fill the card that the store said you will be able to use for all future bike purchases. Now, a new bike model is coming available and you go into the store three months before it is released to pre-order the bike and the store tells you your cash credit card is not valid, only normal credit cards are accepted. You look at them and ask what the difference is without a response. You are also told that with the store cash credit card they are unsure what the price will be when released, if you can get it as a whole bike or in separate parts you will pay separately for, and even if the bike non pre-order will be available the same day as the pre-order bike. This is exactly what Turbine has currently published regarding the expansion coming in September.
At the end of the day, the bike is a bike - pre-order or not does not make it any different at all. One is paid for in advance, the other after availablility. However, it is obvious you are pushing for the pre-order by making it seem much better than using your store credit card that you were told you could use. Now they are technically telling you that you can still use it, but they aren't making it exactly sound like it is the best option.
To your comment about being gullible - There are dozens of customers on the Turbine forums expressing disappointment about the same issue. Which is arrogant to dimiss that they are all gullible. Just like Apple tried to dismiss the dropped calls with the iPhone. They said it was they way customers were using it. Were they gullible too? Were they not intelligent enough to use the phone the right way? No. When several customers are complaining of similar issues - as is the case with the pre-order situation - the fault definately lies with the company; not the customers.
One last example that is also a reciprical point. Last year, CodeMasters announced a Lifetime membership deal in Europe that many Europeans took advantage of. Less than two months later, Turbine announced F2P. There were many customers in Europe asking about refunds since they were not aware of the impending F2P and felt 'duped' knowing that Codemasters/Turbine knew this was coming. Were these customers gullible because Codemasters/Turbine DIDN'T say they were going F2P shortly or were they in fact duped so the company could make a cash grab before going F2P? Turbine seems to be the ones building a track record of upsetting customers for NOT saying anything. I find it hard to believe that so many customers are suddenly gullible.
Finally, cut throat capitalism is for business vs. business, not for exploiting customers. Practice that style of business on customers and you upset so many customers they fail to do business with you entirely. It isn't exactly smart business.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
All I know is that I have not played LoTRO in a few months and was looking forward to the upcoming expansion and hopping back into things when it was released. I had previously bought Turbine Points when they were on sale and was saving them specifically for the expansion. Them pulling this, I have zero desire to play the game again at all.
It really did get dull for me anyway before I stopped playing earlier this year, and am finding I am enjoying reading the books more than I did playing the game.
Yup Turbine's management definately seems to be in the habit of shooting itself in the foot since the F2P move.
In business, ones reputation is critical to LONG term success. Setting up situations where customers have false expectations of what they are getting for thier money, where they feel they've not been dealt fairly with, or where they have cause to question the credability of your offers is the surest way to hamstring the long term viability of a company.
Sure, you'll always have a few people with expectations that are completely off the reservation... you don't really need to worry about those. But if you've got significant numbers of people who are upset about how you've upheld your offers to them, that's a problem. It doesn't even matter if you are technicaly right and they are technicaly wrong...they are the customers.... If they PERCIEVE that they are being treated unfairly....there is a good chance that you are not only loosing current business from them but loosing the OPPORTUNITY to do any FUTURE business with them. That's what's called opportunity cost.
Unfortunately, it's a mistake alot of (bad) business decision makers these days. You maximize the companies short term proffits but hamstring it's long term viability. It's kinda like a timber company cutting down every single tree in a forest and not planting any new ones. It's going to have a great profit next quarter, since it's maximized it's production (trees cut down) and minimized it's expenses (cost of replanting).... but what does it do the quarter AFTER that when it has no trees to harvest?
It's more then just a handfull of people that have been unhappy about how Turbine has been structuring it's offerings. To me, that means it hasn't been nearly carefull enough about setting proper expectations from it's customers, clearly communicating those expectations and making sure that it's future offerings are consistant with the expectations it has set up.
That is an excellent analogy. I am one of the trees they cut, and I doubt a seed was planted in my place given I was a happy paying VIP customer. For me it became apparent that Turbine didn't give 2 cents for their paying customers who've been supporting them from day one when they released the Enedwaith expansion. We wait over a year for some quality content after the Moria expansion and everything since then was geared toward the f2p movement.
I think the writing is on the wall... Once the license expires, this game is toast. If feels like Turbine is hell bent on squeezing every last dime out of this title before they go their separate way. Like GrumpyMel2 said, it seems Turbine has not given any attention to the future and this doesn't go well for a company with plans of renewing a license. I won't even think about coming back to this game unless Isengard is a knock you off your feet expansion, and it doesn't seem like that will be a case since Turbine is about more of the same with a wrinkle here and there.
/end rant
P2P and B2P games usually but not always charges for expansions yes. But F2P games don't charge for expansions.
As far as I know is it only Turbine, SOE and possibly now Funcom that does that.
With the freemium model we really should get the zones for free but they should charge you for stuff like in the original game, and in LOTROs case that should include charging you for the quests.
It's $10 for three zones and ten levels(at the most basic version)... that's a better deal than the rest of the game. LOTRO is freemium it's not f2p. In all honesty it's still a better deal than 99% of the other f2p games. You will have to put something down but once you do it's yours. All I can say is I don't see anything but a win for the consumer here.
good luck out there. Time Warner gots your back now.
Who has been unhappy in a reasonable way?
Everyone I see who has a problem with LotRO free to play read things wrong and go into a {mod edit} rage without ever making any sense.
It's a good deal.
The three types of the expansion also shows the move away from offering deals to offering added bonus at full lotro store price. The first expansion pack is offerd at 29.99 instead of included freee in a 99.99 game card purchase, which would have followed thier past buisness model. It offers a restricted base set of bonuses thats in all three expansion pack types. The second expasion goes for 39.99 and includes 1000 turbine points, which is no more then adding 10.00 for 1000 turbine points, not such a deal when the lotro will sell you that. Then we come to the third expansion package, which is 49.99, which has everything of the second expansion and then adds a bunch of F2P quest packs in it for that extra 10.00 again. So your pretty much paying 29.99 for the base expansion and full price for extra tubine points and if your not F2P, but a member, and you go for the 49.99 one, your paying even more for F2P content that you already have included with your membership.
30 euros for exapnsion including some ingame items as cloak, title etc. ..pretty standard
for 40 euros u get 1000 tp more..so the 10 euros + mount + cosmetic set etc. so more ingame things IF u like that.
and if u dont want 49 euros one..dont buy it..its that easy
What would have been more reasonable and less greedy was to offer a free expansion pack with the 99.99 - 12-month subscribion plan to match thier past buisness model.
some people like 29 euros for an expansion..forcing them to pasy 99 euros would ruin it and shoo away all f2p and possible vips
https://ashesofcreation.com/r/Y4U3PQCASUPJ5SED
ok thats true..it is pretty sad that VIPs cant spent TP at extra cosmetics etc becuz they have to save tp for an expansion idd...if they really need the money they could make VIP 1 - 2 euros expensiver per month but include that every expansion or new update that needs to be bought is free for those guys..but alot of people will get angry becuz of that to.
so atm no good solutions rlly :P
https://ashesofcreation.com/r/Y4U3PQCASUPJ5SED
That is exactly the same thought I had when I started reading the first pages.
Lifer here and pretty happy with it. To date haven't used 6kr (1 dollar) in the game store and been relying on my turbine points which i get every month (a pretty effing sweet deal.).
The thing people seem to hang up on is something about expansion packs that used to be free if the person bought a 3 month subscription plan? I have been playing lotro off and on since launch and I have never seen any offer including such a package in EU ever.
Calling a company greedy for having an in-game store is such a ridiculous allegation, it would be like calling a store owner greedy because he sells goods that you are not required to buy to enjoy life. If you do not want resurrection stones or stat boosts or xp bonus, do not buy them.
What is this crap, socialism?
He doesn't grind for TP, as he said he's a life time sub and gets 500 for free every month. Which is the same deal you get when you pay $99 for a year VIP sub. Why people are complaining about this is beyond me. $99 for a year of play is a great deal and if that's to much for you then you can still play the game for free. It takes some grinding but if you want it free then you shouldn't complain. Anways, if you playing an MMO and $99 a year is to much for you, you maybe shouldn't be playing MMOs in the first place.
As for calling it a golf course sure it's a golf course and if you keep playing with an iron, a driver, and 9 basic holes you will eventually get a free invite to the other 9 holes. Included in the free invite you'll get a caddy, and a full set of clubs all for just playing the basics.
People complaining about the expansion need to take a look at it. It's only $29.99 for the basic addtion. That's a pretty decent price for an expansion.
Listen, the saying "nothing in life is free" rings true in everything to include MMOs. I don't understand why people think they should be handed everything for free. Turbine is a buisness and like any buisness they need to make money. So, if you want more then just the basics (without having to grind) stop being so damn cheap and pay the sub fee.
The only thing I got out of that response you sendt was the fact you had neither played the game, nor concentrated on writing anything back to me more than an improved analogy to the outro of my statement.
EDIT: You did know about the reason behind EU not having such a subscription.