Best Endgame models

fansede · July 2011

Even though MMOS arent supposed to end. What games do you all think have the best "endgame" system. What game offers the best experience when you are accomplished the level cap?

Drawing from many of these forum threads - My guess is members here want a sandbox, but the casual masses don't mind grinds of raids. What about PVP? GW proponents might stake their claim here.

So If I was a future game designer - I would start my team working on the endgame first. What would be best model to reach and keep players?

jpnole · July 2011

Your post is in the wrong forum and should be under The Pub as you mention nothing about Rift.

Crake_1 · July 2011

I think I will indeed stake a Guild Wars claim here, in regard to PvP. Obviously robust PvP should be a big part of any endgame, and I think that a very fair and level playing field should be part of that. GW1 emphasized player skill by giving PvP characters automatic access to max stats gear and all the skills/mods they had unlocked, and that was a great idea. Also, structure is a great thing. I know there are a lot of peolpe who love open world PvP, and even those who love it when ganking is possible, but I cannot disagree more. I like GW's arena formats. GW2 looks promising because they've maintained all of the same design philosophies, albeit with the details changed. Heck, their stated goal is for GW2 to become an e-sport, so you know it will be highly balanced and formatted to be fair and competitive.

I should also mentioned that while I oppose open world PvP, I very much enjoy large format arena matches. GW1 had 12v12 Alliance Battles that were a lot of fun, and GW2 will have World vs. World vs. World with potnetially hundreds of players per side at any given time. I'm super excited for that.

In PvE, there is a fundemental divide between the infinite skinner box treadmills that keep people playing for years, and the more casual-friendly approach that provides attainable maximums and/or inifinite treadmills that don't have any gameplay-affecting rewards. Personally, I favour the casual-friendly method because I really don't enjoy that insubstantial progression.

And let's not forget about sandbox games. Admittedly, I don't have a lot of experience with sandbox games, but fromw hat I understand about them, I like them. I've been playing APB: Reloaded lately, and for all the various faults it has, their customization systems are really nice. It's not limited to just choosing custom clothing and custom decoration for your cars, you can *create* content. Custom decals to put on cars and clothing, a built in music composer to write your own theme tune, and the ability to sell your various work in the AH if it's good enough.

APB has no storyline, though. I think a themepark level-up can be followed by a sandbox-oriented endgame. GW2 has certain shades of this in the fact that the open world is filled with dynamic events rather than quests, but is still certainly a themepark game.

A while back I had some interesting idea about an MMO that allowed for players to create custom dungeons. Then I discovered Dungeon Empires, which looks absolutely awful and is not at all what I had in mind. But imagine an MMO where players could create custom dungeons that could involve all the bells and whistles of the dungeons made by the devs. They'd be playable by other players with a reward for completion. I actually have this all planned out and it's great, but cutting it short to be brief. This system would be a large undertaking for the dev team to design, for sure. However, the result would be both a creative outlet for players, and more importantly an infinite stream of new content that doesn't require paying professionals for their time. Players get content in 2 ways (creative outlet and playable), devs get some of their work done for them at no cost. Everyone wins.

MMOExposed · July 2011

I made a thread on this a while ago.

Check my history.

Thread like this usually turn into a debate on what the meaning of Endgame means. I forgot the term that the people in my thread suggested using instead of the word "Endgame".

So I suggest to the OP to define what "Endgame" is before more people come into this thread and derail.

vulron · July 2011

Originally posted by Crake_1
I think I will indeed stake a Guild Wars claim here, in regard to PvP. Obviously robust PvP should be a big part of any endgame, and I think that a very fair and level playing field should be part of that. GW1 emphasized player skill by giving PvP characters automatic access to max stats gear and all the skills/mods they had unlocked, and that was a great idea. Also, structure is a great thing. I know there are a lot of peolpe who love open world PvP, and even those who love it when ganking is possible, but I cannot disagree more. I like GW's arena formats. GW2 looks promising because they've maintained all of the same design philosophies, albeit with the details changed. Heck, their stated goal is for GW2 to become an e-sport, so you know it will be highly balanced and formatted to be fair and competitive.

I should also mentioned that while I oppose open world PvP, I very much enjoy large format arena matches. GW1 had 12v12 Alliance Battles that were a lot of fun, and GW2 will have World vs. World vs. World with potnetially hundreds of players per side at any given time. I'm super excited for that.

In PvE, there is a fundemental divide between the infinite skinner box treadmills that keep people playing for years, and the more casual-friendly approach that provides attainable maximums and/or inifinite treadmills that don't have any gameplay-affecting rewards. Personally, I favour the casual-friendly method because I really don't enjoy that insubstantial progression.

And let's not forget about sandbox games. Admittedly, I don't have a lot of experience with sandbox games, but fromw hat I understand about them, I like them. I've been playing APB: Reloaded lately, and for all the various faults it has, their customization systems are really nice. It's not limited to just choosing custom clothing and custom decoration for your cars, you can *create* content. Custom decals to put on cars and clothing, a built in music composer to write your own theme tune, and the ability to sell your various work in the AH if it's good enough.

APB has no storyline, though. I think a themepark level-up can be followed by a sandbox-oriented endgame. GW2 has certain shades of this in the fact that the open world is filled with dynamic events rather than quests, but is still certainly a themepark game.

A while back I had some interesting idea about an MMO that allowed for players to create custom dungeons. Then I discovered Dungeon Empires, which looks absolutely awful and is not at all what I had in mind. But imagine an MMO where players could create custom dungeons that could involve all the bells and whistles of the dungeons made by the devs. They'd be playable by other players with a reward for completion. I actually have this all planned out and it's great, but cutting it short to be brief. This system would be a large undertaking for the dev team to design, for sure. However, the result would be both a creative outlet for players, and more importantly an infinite stream of new content that doesn't require paying professionals for their time. Players get content in 2 ways (creative outlet and playable), devs get some of their work done for them at no cost. Everyone wins.

I agree, Guildwars 2 is going to change the MMORPG

mrcalhou · July 2011

Eve-online. Endgame effectively begins as soon as the tutorial is finished.

Adamantine · July 2011

Uh - hu.

I find the very concept of "endgame" annoying.

The endgame should be when the game ends.

rounner · July 2011

Originally posted by MMOExposed
I made a thread on this a while ago.

Check my history.

Thread like this usually turn into a debate on what the meaning of Endgame means. I forgot the term that the people in my thread suggested using instead of the word "Endgame".

So I suggest to the OP to define what "Endgame" is before more people come into this thread and derail.

These posts often devolve into arguments over definitions and semantics. Many MMO's at the moment keep leveling past max level (ie you hit max level and then level something else such as favour). All sorts of tangents there.

Yalexy · July 2011

Originally posted by mrcalhou
Eve-online. Endgame effectively begins as soon as the tutorial is finished.

+1

Frigate/MWD/warpscrambler all trained up in a couple of hours, before you're an asset in a fleet.

I want to be able to take part right away, without being required to play for several weeks/month first.

MumboJumbo · July 2011

Here's some variations on how a game might satisfy a player:

1. Short + V Fun

2. Medium + Fun

3. Long + Just about Fun/Not as much Fun (anymore)

ALL games should start with 1. Why? They need to achieve a way of being fun that makes them worth something. The next step is to be able to extend this experience and keep players playing so they get more value for their money without noticeably degrading of fun. Here's where the MMORPG steps in...

1. Law of Diminishing Returns applies

2. MMORPGS are definitively Long/Large games

3. Subscription Pressure (devs)

4. Player Time/Attention investment (player)

These can all conspire to cause massive problems about what to do for Endgame. It's also imo a little dishonest of some mmorpgs to "offer" Endgame and not simply say "CUT & WRAP! The shows over now, folks."

Games that allow change all the time ie Sandbox mmorpgs surely are the best candidates for Endgame because no special case is required. They solve the problem effectively of Long game + fun through lots of different possible interactions for players to do and for change over time to keep the game refreshed.

A shorter more fun mmorpg that cuts down on Endgame is imo a better option for mmorpgs that cannot solve the Endgame conundrum as effectively. Though that sort of honesty might not be as palatable as maxing profits and addicting players into "farming" behaviors. PvP is a strong candidate for these mmorpgs where content cannot be refreshed so player-player interactions sidesteps that?

eg Themepark: GW2 -

1. your story ends but you can choose lots of alts is great with different stories and definitive ends.

2. World PvP for max level chars

eg Sandbox: Eve already mentioned.

Nadia · July 2011

for me the best endgames were Everquest and Guildwars

(yes i know guildwars is not a "true mmo")

why? because in both of them, you could be level capped and still progress your character without gear upgrades

- Everquest had the AA system, with thousands of different AA you could earn with combat experience

- Guildwars had no gear to grind for beyond appearance gear

Torgrim · July 2011

Endgame is the most stupid word ever created.

EVE,UO and alike don't have endgame there was/is always something to do besides doing the same shit every evening like we see in WoW,Rift ect.

ruonim · July 2011

uo pre trammel,gw,eve

Kyleran · July 2011

Originally posted by parrotpholk
Eve online, DAoC and L2 would be my votes for what endgame should be.

Yeah, I'll have to say these are 3 of my favorites, and they all involved some form of territorial control at their core.

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Best Endgame models

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Best Endgame models

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV