These games we call Themeparks, are simply many of Everquest's many children. They are clones of Everquest in a similar manner that Vanilla WoW is.
It's obvious that you either didn't play the MMORPG's before extensively or you let your judgement be clouded by your stance regarding WoW and other MMO's
The gap between EQ/DAoC/AC on one side and WoW is distinctly bigger than the gap between WoW and MMO's like LotrO/Aion/WAR/Rift on the other side.
Maybe not even as much in general features as in core gameplay feel and experience, where one side of the gap plays far more differently from WoW compared to the other side of the gap when compared with WoW.
Not talking about which MMO is better or worse and all that, just the difference in gameplay feel from one MMO to the next.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
These games we call Themeparks, are simply many of Everquest's many children. They are clones of Everquest in a similar manner that Vanilla WoW is.
It's obvious that you either didn't play the MMORPG's before extensively or you let your judgement be clouded by your stance regarding WoW and other MMO's
The gap between EQ/DAoC/AC on one side and WoW is distinctly bigger than the gap between WoW and MMO's like LotrO/Aion/WAR/Rift on the other side.
Maybe not even as much in general features as in core gameplay feel and experience, where one side of the gap plays far more differently from WoW compared to the other side of the gap when compared with WoW.
Not talking about which MMO is better or worse and all that, just the difference in gameplay feel from one MMO to the next.
Well if you want to do it that way, than you can say every post Everquest sandbox went the WoW clone way, and every pre Everquest sandbox went the UO way.
MMO's ruined by haters?....Quite possibly! Think about it this way !
If there was a new game going to be released that you took interest in , or has been released. What do you do?
You come to mmorpg.com or a similar site to see how others feel about the game. Alot of mmo's dont offer free trials so you have to decide if you want to buy it. just from videos and what you read. People see negative comments and think twice about purchasing the game. Sometimes the negative comments left on a certain game are very accurate or completely biased.
God and Heroes comes to mind here..there was so many negative comments on the forums, it was one of the worst P2p launches ever for an mmorpg. Thing is most were implementing there negative opinions on the games failure to launch a few years back. It scared gamers away and not many bothered to buy it. Let alone play the open beta ! Even players that never heard it way back when. didnt even want to try it. I got a wild hair up my butt and decided to play the OB which was completely dead especially for an OB. The game itself wasnt that bad..it needed some work but i've seen way worse.
Also for people that decide to go ahead and buy or try the game already have the word FAIL planted in there brain from all the negative comments. So on some level some gamers already from the get get go do not give the a game a fair shot. Before they decide to quit or unsub.
Rift come to mind here..Probably the most successful game launch in the past 2 yrs. With good reason ! Trion really put alot of work into this game. Alot people didnt even play till endgame before unsubbing. Got to like level 20-30 before deciding to quit. Endgamers decided to quit cause getting to lvl cap was to short. Most did it in under a months time. Pretty much the main flaw for Rift. Although Trion is working there butts off trying to bring new content very quickly..(and they are) to keep endgamers satisfied.
Although to little to late cause the game is dying rapidly..even though it was probably the best theme park mmorpg to release since WoW. They even had a less buggier release than WoW did. Which to me is saying somthing. Which is they really took there time. We can probably excpect good things from Trion in the future and the game was vey polished and well done.
So i blame the Haters here for being so negative all the time... Planting the word FAIL from the get go !
So yes in my opinion..Haters have alot to do with MMO's being ruined , but its not always there fault. Sometimes the game or developers do suck.
The way I see it if I played the game for awhile I have the right to hate on it. Now I wont hate on any MMO I have ever played. (F2P being the exception since I don't consider them MMO's) Yes I have played many F2P MMO's but end result each time was the same.
Reason I hate a game is simple it's boring, too easy, lack of content, and the direction they take the game into.
So some people have a reason to hate something others do it because they are followers.
These games we call Themeparks, are simply many of Everquest's many children. They are clones of Everquest in a similar manner that Vanilla WoW is.
It's obvious that you either didn't play the MMORPG's before extensively or you let your judgement be clouded by your stance regarding WoW and other MMO's
The gap between EQ/DAoC/AC on one side and WoW is distinctly bigger than the gap between WoW and MMO's like LotrO/Aion/WAR/Rift on the other side.
Maybe not even as much in general features as in core gameplay feel and experience, where one side of the gap plays far more differently from WoW compared to the other side of the gap when compared with WoW.
Not talking about which MMO is better or worse and all that, just the difference in gameplay feel from one MMO to the next.
Well if you want to do it that way, than you can say every post Everquest sandbox went the WoW clone way, and every pre Everquest sandbox went the UO way.
You obviously have trouble understanding what was meant, so here it goes again without your flawed interpretation and extrapolation upon my words :
in design philosophy and gameplay feel MMO's like WoW, LotrO, Aion and Rift are a lot closer together and more of a 'family' than MMO's like EQ, DAoC and AC, who all stand a lot farther from WoW.
Originally posted by fallonfallon
Rift come to mind here..Probably the most successful game launch in the past 2 yrs. With good reason ! Trion really put alot of work into this game. Alot people didnt even play till endgame before unsubbing. Got to like level 20-30 before deciding to quit. Endgamers decided to quit cause getting to lvl cap was to short. Most did it in under a months time. Pretty much the main flaw for Rift. Although Trion is working there butts off trying to bring new content very quickly..(and they are) to keep endgamers satisfied.
Although to little to late cause the game is dying rapidly..even though it was probably the best theme park mmorpg to release since WoW. They even had a less buggier release than WoW did. Which to me is saying somthing. Which is they really took there time. We can probably excpect good things from Trion in the future and
I think the core problem of Rift was/is amount of content and variety of content: there was too little to keep a lot of MMO gamers entertained for longer than a few months.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The way I see it if I played the game for awhile I have the right to hate on it. Now I wont hate on any MMO I have ever played. (F2P being the exception since I don't consider them MMO's) Yes I have played many F2P MMO's but end result each time was the same.
Reason I hate a game is simple it's boring, too easy, lack of content, and the direction they take the game into.
So some people have a reason to hate something others do it because they are followers.
Your absolutely right !.....you have the right to express your opinions about a game. If you 've played for a good amount of time.
Even if you havent you still have the right. Freedom of speach ! Here is the thing..not calling you a liar , but who's to say you did?
Anybody can say that ! So even though your claims of a game being terrible or WoW clone may be legit. Nobody really knows ! All people see is another troll or hater. Which just stacks up with the real trolls and haters already hating on the game.
So because the Hating is so bad these days on almost every popular game. Maybe its just better to express positive opnions towards games you enjoy. Just dont even bother with games you dislike. Than maybe your claims would hold more water.
there are plenty of games i hate , but im not posting about it..I just dont play the damn thing and leave it be , because i dont wanna be the that guy thats posting a negative comment , even though its been stated before already over and over again...but thats just me.
Rift come to mind here..Probably the most successful game launch in the past 2 yrs. With good reason ! Trion really put alot of work into this game. Alot people didnt even play till endgame before unsubbing. Got to like level 20-30 before deciding to quit. Endgamers decided to quit cause getting to lvl cap was to short. Most did it in under a months time. Pretty much the main flaw for Rift. Although Trion is working there butts off trying to bring new content very quickly..(and they are) to keep endgamers satisfied.
Although to little to late cause the game is dying rapidly..even though it was probably the best theme park mmorpg to release since WoW. They even had a less buggier release than WoW did. Which to me is saying somthing. Which is they really took there time. We can probably excpect good things from Trion in the future and
I think the core problem of Rift was/is amount of content and variety of content: there was too little to keep a lot of MMO gamers entertained for longer than a few months.
Which was pretty much what i said..endgamers went through the game to quickly
From the time I used to play WoW, I remember that neither me nor any other I knew payed the forums any particular notice. In fact, noone I have known who plays WoW have EVER bothered a second about the WoW forums. Actually, I never bothered about ANY MMO forum as long as I had fun in that MMO I used to play.
I was never like that
Ive always actively visited the forums of any mmo or game I enjoy
-- just because you dont doesnt mean other fans do the same
why do you think fansites and forums exist? only for people who dont like the game ?
most gamers never visit the forums PERIOD .. regardless if they care about the game
I think its shortsighted to try to summarize the fans/haters who DO visit forums
It just came to me after reading some small things here in other thread; May it actually be so that the haters are ruining the MMO's and their communities rather than the average gamer themself?
This cant be true, as someone that hates a game is not playing it, or has stoped playing it.
So no, the games have shitty community composed of GAMERS.
i define gamers as people who care about gameplay and not epixx or fluff like remodelled hypogriffs for 20$
nowadays the majority develops for social casuals. Bullshit archievements like reach lvl 10, fluff items for additional payment and social elements like linking your gaming to facebook or whatever other social site there is are the main symptops of those, gone are the days were it was about fun gameplay and real challenge
From the time I used to play WoW, I remember that neither me nor any other I knew payed the forums any particular notice. In fact, noone I have known who plays WoW have EVER bothered a second about the WoW forums. Actually, I never bothered about ANY MMO forum as long as I had fun in that MMO I used to play.
I was never like that
Ive always actively visited the forums of any mmo or game I enjoy
-- just because you dont doesnt mean other fans do the same
why do you think fansites and forums exist? only for people who dont like the game ?
most gamers never visit the forums PERIOD .. regardless if they care about the game
I think its shortsighted to try to summarize the fans/haters who DO visit forums
He, he... good point ... I also never bothered with any forum until I was not happy with game. For tips ... there is google ... for unsatisfied people there are forums. :-) At least mainly .. but there are exceptions ... mainly because I'm subbed to mmorpg letter. So partecipate more ... but otherwise would not.
MMOs are ruined by over-analyzing forum posters. Themepark this, sandbox that... WoW this, EQ that, the good ole days blah blah blah blah.
Spend more time in the games actually meeting people and making friends and less time in the forums and they aren't so bad. And stop playing if you don't like a game.
I agree that community management is one of the factors of a success for a game. If you let your forums go unchecked, you give a green light for slanders, as posters often become self-entitled to bash anything under their 'Freedom of expression'. This is true for official game forums, as news websites or simply fan sites. Also, haters do have their own agenda. Here are some examples: They hate theme parks and want to promote sandboxes, they hate PVE and want to promote PVP, they hate anything that is not Guild Wars 2, or they hate SOE and everything coming from it.
there are plenty of games i hate , but im not posting about it..I just dont play the damn thing and leave it be , because i dont wanna be the that guy thats posting a negative comment , even though its been stated before already over and over again...but thats just me.
Well if you dont say anything, how will the developers know what need fixing?
there are plenty of games i hate , but im not posting about it..I just dont play the damn thing and leave it be , because i dont wanna be the that guy thats posting a negative comment , even though its been stated before already over and over again...but thats just me.
Well if you dont say anything, how will the developers know what need fixing?
Aren't you negating one of your earlier posts with this one? Your first post, I think, was basically "just because some people hate something it doesn't mean it's bad and needs fixing" and now you tell him that if he doesn't say when he hates a game/game mechanic the devs won't fix it.
OP I agree. WoW haters IMO are the reason the Genre is so bad.
The WoW Haters are the largest venter group you see on any forum dealing with MMORPGs.
WoW Haters, HATE anything that is related to WoW(unless their fav developer chooses to add said feature to their game)
Developers fear adding features that WoW has made standard because they dont want fans to go into rampage calling it a WoW clone.
These WoW haters, sometimes are fans of a WoW Clone, yet talk down upon everything about WoW. Ironic.
I seen this many times.
Examples:
1) Rift: In Rift, the developers refused to add Cross Server Dungeon finder tool, which WoW has perfected, simply because they didnt want to be bashed by the WoW haters.
2) Guild Wars 2: Fans hated the idea of a Paladin Class in Guild Wars 2. They even went into rampage over a FUCKING CLASS NAME, because they already knew it was coming from the leaked concept art. Fans argued over and over to justify that the Guardian isnt a Paladin of any kind. its just fucking silly IMO.
3) Warhammer: People went into rampage over the suggestions for Cross Server Instanced PvP system being in the game before release. This was a killer. The Fans Rampaged, and the Developers ego, left out anything WoW related. And look at it now. IT FLOPPED!!!
4) Warhammer: WoW takes too long to travel around the world. That was a major complaint. So Developers were given support for making a NON SEAMLESS WORLD
I think the idea here is that we see little innovation in the MMORPG market because the developers want to stick with what was proven to work in the WoW model, hence why so many new MMOs resemble a title released almost 7 years ago. The problem is that the community members of those games are populated by a lot of spurned ex-WoW players, and quite simply the developers are listening to the wrong group of people. In the end, you have a game that isn't well received by the community that supported it pre-launch because of its similarity to WoW nor is it received by the millions. current WoW players because it lacks so many features that said game's forum community whined was so detrimental to the game.
I think the idea here is that we see little innovation in the MMORPG market because the developers want to stick with what was proven to work in the WoW model, hence why so many new MMOs resemble a title released almost 7 years ago. The problem is that the community members of those games are populated by a lot of spurned ex-WoW players, and quite simply the developers are listening to the wrong group of people. In the end, you have a game that isn't well received by the community that supported it pre-launch because of its similarity to WoW nor is it received by the millions. current WoW players because it lacks so many features that said game's forum community whined was so detrimental to the game.
You forgot one thing. It's not received by the millions of WoW fans because they are...drum roll please...PLAYING WoW!
WoW is the best "WoW clone" out there. Even if a developer made a game that had exactly the same features as WoW, WoW would still be better because it has had so long to accumulate content. The ONLY thing that developers of a pure WoW clone can bank on is having better graphics just because the game is newer. But what's more important to MMORPG players? Slightly better graphics? Or TONS of content?
Also, Blizzard are the masters of perfecting a tried and true concept. No developer is going to make WoW better than Blizzard did. It would be like a company trying to make a better Starcraft, not happening. The only RTS's that competed with Warcraft for a while (Command and Conquer, Age of Empires) did so because they were all different. They all offered different experiences.
We need DIFFERENTIATION. REAL differentiation.
Making WoW with a more flexible class system isn't enough.
Making WoW that's bloodier and has combo-based melee combat is not enough.
Making WoW that has RvR is not enough.
Making WoW with flying is not enough.
Developers need to either:
1. Look at every inch of WoW and ask "what could have been done better?" Then make that game. (Hopefully Guild Wars 2)
2. Don't use WoW as the template for your game. Be original, think from the ground up. Take concepts that worked from ALL MMORPGs, and apply them as well as inventing new concepts.
haters are a strange breed. They spend their days and hours picking or starting topics to push whatever agenda they deem worthy. They also quote the hell out of someone when they see a valid point that runs contrary to thier own. In a desire or fit of nerd rage they attempt to move the discussuion off topic by quoting the shit out of the person that pissed them off.
Valid points go out the window after a hater gets called on something and most cases they get a ban/warning or the topic gets locked. the ultimate goal for them is to disrupt a topic and get it locked, or to make other people go off topic with them.
it never ends well, you end up with countless pages of quotes if they leave, and the job they set out to do is complete until they come back to see the topic again and necro it.
For the most part and this is just my own thinking on this, I would have to agree with the poster for at least one reason. As a vet WoW player from beta till just 2 months ago I could never understand how some of these forum ragers ever had anytime at all to play when they were ALL OVER the forums flaming, trolling and just trying to be the biggest @%&;* they could be all the time. And this wasnt just in WoW either it seemed like a problem in every mmo I've ever played except lotro. Really now, how could these people post something like 200+ times a day and still have anytime left for any sort of mmo gaming?
Like the OP said most of my friends and myself never really spent too much time on the forums expect for the odd researching of this or that cause we were too busy actually playing said mmo. Much like the trolls in MMORPG.coms forums who have posted thousands of post ranting and raving about anything they could, most rage queens dont play much if any games at all, because they find little to no enjoyment in games or most likely anything else other than trying to ruin it for others that do. Thats not to say that there are not gamers that are also trolls, I just doubt that there is as many.
For the most part and this is just my own thinking on this, I would have to agree with the poster for at least one reason. As a vet WoW player from beta till just 2 months ago I could never understand how some of these forum ragers ever had anytime at all to play when they were ALL OVER the forums flaming, trolling and just trying to be the biggest @%&;* they could be all the time. And this wasnt just in WoW either it seemed like a problem in every mmo I've ever played except lotro. Really now, how could these people post something like 200+ times a day and still have anytime left for any sort of mmo gaming?
Like the OP said most of my friends and myself never really spent too much time on the forums expect for the odd researching of this or that cause we were too busy actually playing said mmo. Much like the trolls in MMORPG.coms forums who have posted thousands of post ranting and raving about anything they could, most rage queens dont play much if any games at all, because they find little to no enjoyment in games or most likely anything else other than trying to ruin it for others that do. Thats not to say that there are not gamers that are also trolls, I just doubt that there is as many.
That's all well and good, but I really don't see the link between haters being annoying in general and them ruining the entire MMO genre. Reverse halo effect anyone ?
I think the idea here is that we see little innovation in the MMORPG market because the developers want to stick with what was proven to work in the WoW model, hence why so many new MMOs resemble a title released almost 7 years ago. The problem is that the community members of those games are populated by a lot of spurned ex-WoW players, and quite simply the developers are listening to the wrong group of people. In the end, you have a game that isn't well received by the community that supported it pre-launch because of its similarity to WoW nor is it received by the millions. current WoW players because it lacks so many features that said game's forum community whined was so detrimental to the game.
You forgot one thing. It's not received by the millions of WoW fans because they are...drum roll please...PLAYING WoW!
WoW is the best "WoW clone" out there. Even if a developer made a game that had exactly the same features as WoW, WoW would still be better because it has had so long to accumulate content. The ONLY thing that developers of a pure WoW clone can bank on is having better graphics just because the game is newer. But what's more important to MMORPG players? Slightly better graphics? Or TONS of content?
Also, Blizzard are the masters of perfecting a tried and true concept. No developer is going to make WoW better than Blizzard did. It would be like a company trying to make a better Starcraft, not happening. The only RTS's that competed with Warcraft for a while (Command and Conquer, Age of Empires) did so because they were all different. They all offered different experiences.
We need DIFFERENTIATION. REAL differentiation.
Making WoW with a more flexible class system isn't enough.
Making WoW that's bloodier and has combo-based melee combat is not enough.
Making WoW that has RvR is not enough.
Making WoW with flying is not enough.
Developers need to either:
1. Look at every inch of WoW and ask "what could have been done better?" Then make that game. (Hopefully Guild Wars 2)
2. Don't use WoW as the template for your game. Be original, think from the ground up. Take concepts that worked from ALL MMORPGs, and apply them as well as inventing new concepts.
I agree with you in that we need true differentiation. The problem is that developers are essentially remaking WoW albeit more poorly with a few unique features here and there that still aren't enough for the game to escape "WoW-Clone" status. I was simply saying that if devs are going to continue modeling games after WoW, they should stop listening to the vocal minority of WoW haters that populate their forums oposing just about every modern MMO innovation ever created since the days of Ultima Online and go the distance to attract people who are actually playing and currently enjoying WoW.
In my experience WoW players are always looking for every reason to finally leave the land of Azeroth, and that's why so many MMOs have huge post-launch boom periods, but once they find out that in no way to these games touch WoW's accesibility and correct balance between easiness and difficulty, they go back to WoW.
I think the idea here is that we see little innovation in the MMORPG market because the developers want to stick with what was proven to work in the WoW model, hence why so many new MMOs resemble a title released almost 7 years ago. The problem is that the community members of those games are populated by a lot of spurned ex-WoW players, and quite simply the developers are listening to the wrong group of people. In the end, you have a game that isn't well received by the community that supported it pre-launch because of its similarity to WoW nor is it received by the millions. current WoW players because it lacks so many features that said game's forum community whined was so detrimental to the game.
You forgot one thing. It's not received by the millions of WoW fans because they are...drum roll please...PLAYING WoW!
WoW is the best "WoW clone" out there. Even if a developer made a game that had exactly the same features as WoW, WoW would still be better because it has had so long to accumulate content. The ONLY thing that developers of a pure WoW clone can bank on is having better graphics just because the game is newer. But what's more important to MMORPG players? Slightly better graphics? Or TONS of content?
Also, Blizzard are the masters of perfecting a tried and true concept. No developer is going to make WoW better than Blizzard did. It would be like a company trying to make a better Starcraft, not happening. The only RTS's that competed with Warcraft for a while (Command and Conquer, Age of Empires) did so because they were all different. They all offered different experiences.
We need DIFFERENTIATION. REAL differentiation.
Making WoW with a more flexible class system isn't enough.
Making WoW that's bloodier and has combo-based melee combat is not enough.
Making WoW that has RvR is not enough.
Making WoW with flying is not enough.
Developers need to either:
1. Look at every inch of WoW and ask "what could have been done better?" Then make that game. (Hopefully Guild Wars 2)
2. Don't use WoW as the template for your game. Be original, think from the ground up. Take concepts that worked from ALL MMORPGs, and apply them as well as inventing new concepts.
I agree with you in that we need true differentiation. The problem is that developers are essentially remaking WoW albeit more poorly with a few unique features here and there that still aren't enough for the game to escape "WoW-Clone" status. I was simply saying that if devs are going to continue modeling games after WoW, they should stop listening to the vocal minority of WoW haters that populate their forums oposing just about every modern MMO innovation ever created since the days of Ultima Online and go the distance to attract people who are actually playing and currently enjoying WoW.
In my experience WoW players are always looking for every reason to finally leave the land of Azeroth, and that's why so many MMOs have huge post-launch boom periods, but once they find out that in no way to these games touch WoW's accesibility and correct balance between easiness and difficulty, they go back to WoW.
Bingo, you can't out-WOW Blizzard. You might pull people away for a bit, but you'll never make a game similar to WOW that can really compete with WOW in the long term. If you really want to shake up the market you're going to have to do something different.
And if haters really had any influence on game design we'd have driven a stake through the heart of the standard themepark model.
Fact is, like it or not, we're largely irrelevant, whether we like or hate a game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
It's obvious that you either didn't play the MMORPG's before extensively or you let your judgement be clouded by your stance regarding WoW and other MMO's
The gap between EQ/DAoC/AC on one side and WoW is distinctly bigger than the gap between WoW and MMO's like LotrO/Aion/WAR/Rift on the other side.
Maybe not even as much in general features as in core gameplay feel and experience, where one side of the gap plays far more differently from WoW compared to the other side of the gap when compared with WoW.
Not talking about which MMO is better or worse and all that, just the difference in gameplay feel from one MMO to the next.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Nope, the game's developers ruined that one. The popular opinion for or against it had nothing to do with it.
Well if you want to do it that way, than you can say every post Everquest sandbox went the WoW clone way, and every pre Everquest sandbox went the UO way.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
MMO's ruined by haters?....Quite possibly! Think about it this way !
If there was a new game going to be released that you took interest in , or has been released. What do you do?
You come to mmorpg.com or a similar site to see how others feel about the game. Alot of mmo's dont offer free trials so you have to decide if you want to buy it. just from videos and what you read. People see negative comments and think twice about purchasing the game. Sometimes the negative comments left on a certain game are very accurate or completely biased.
God and Heroes comes to mind here..there was so many negative comments on the forums, it was one of the worst P2p launches ever for an mmorpg. Thing is most were implementing there negative opinions on the games failure to launch a few years back. It scared gamers away and not many bothered to buy it. Let alone play the open beta ! Even players that never heard it way back when. didnt even want to try it. I got a wild hair up my butt and decided to play the OB which was completely dead especially for an OB. The game itself wasnt that bad..it needed some work but i've seen way worse.
Also for people that decide to go ahead and buy or try the game already have the word FAIL planted in there brain from all the negative comments. So on some level some gamers already from the get get go do not give the a game a fair shot. Before they decide to quit or unsub.
Rift come to mind here..Probably the most successful game launch in the past 2 yrs. With good reason ! Trion really put alot of work into this game. Alot people didnt even play till endgame before unsubbing. Got to like level 20-30 before deciding to quit. Endgamers decided to quit cause getting to lvl cap was to short. Most did it in under a months time. Pretty much the main flaw for Rift. Although Trion is working there butts off trying to bring new content very quickly..(and they are) to keep endgamers satisfied.
Although to little to late cause the game is dying rapidly..even though it was probably the best theme park mmorpg to release since WoW. They even had a less buggier release than WoW did. Which to me is saying somthing. Which is they really took there time. We can probably excpect good things from Trion in the future and the game was vey polished and well done.
So i blame the Haters here for being so negative all the time... Planting the word FAIL from the get go !
So yes in my opinion..Haters have alot to do with MMO's being ruined , but its not always there fault. Sometimes the game or developers do suck.
Stupid logic.
Fans have little say in the direction of a MMO.
Devs make terrible MMOs perfectly well enough without haters or fanbois.
Also, to ruin something it must be in a state to be ruined.
ok
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The way I see it if I played the game for awhile I have the right to hate on it. Now I wont hate on any MMO I have ever played. (F2P being the exception since I don't consider them MMO's) Yes I have played many F2P MMO's but end result each time was the same.
Reason I hate a game is simple it's boring, too easy, lack of content, and the direction they take the game into.
So some people have a reason to hate something others do it because they are followers.
You obviously have trouble understanding what was meant, so here it goes again without your flawed interpretation and extrapolation upon my words
:
in design philosophy and gameplay feel MMO's like WoW, LotrO, Aion and Rift are a lot closer together and more of a 'family' than MMO's like EQ, DAoC and AC, who all stand a lot farther from WoW.
I think the core problem of Rift was/is amount of content and variety of content: there was too little to keep a lot of MMO gamers entertained for longer than a few months.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Your absolutely right !.....you have the right to express your opinions about a game. If you 've played for a good amount of time.
Even if you havent you still have the right. Freedom of speach ! Here is the thing..not calling you a liar , but who's to say you did?
Anybody can say that ! So even though your claims of a game being terrible or WoW clone may be legit. Nobody really knows ! All people see is another troll or hater. Which just stacks up with the real trolls and haters already hating on the game.
So because the Hating is so bad these days on almost every popular game. Maybe its just better to express positive opnions towards games you enjoy. Just dont even bother with games you dislike. Than maybe your claims would hold more water.
there are plenty of games i hate , but im not posting about it..I just dont play the damn thing and leave it be , because i dont wanna be the that guy thats posting a negative comment , even though its been stated before already over and over again...but thats just me.
Which was pretty much what i said..endgamers went through the game to quickly
Which generaly is caused by lack of content...
I was never like that
Ive always actively visited the forums of any mmo or game I enjoy
-- just because you dont doesnt mean other fans do the same
why do you think fansites and forums exist? only for people who dont like the game ?
most gamers never visit the forums PERIOD .. regardless if they care about the game
I think its shortsighted to try to summarize the fans/haters who DO visit forums
EQ2 fan sites
i define gamers as people who care about gameplay and not epixx or fluff like remodelled hypogriffs for 20$
nowadays the majority develops for social casuals. Bullshit archievements like reach lvl 10, fluff items for additional payment and social elements like linking your gaming to facebook or whatever other social site there is are the main symptops of those, gone are the days were it was about fun gameplay and real challenge
Pi*1337/100 = 42
He, he... good point ... I also never bothered with any forum until I was not happy with game. For tips ... there is google ... for unsatisfied people there are forums. :-) At least mainly .. but there are exceptions ... mainly because I'm subbed to mmorpg letter. So partecipate more ... but otherwise would not.
You forgot accountants, and businessmen.
I agree that community management is one of the factors of a success for a game. If you let your forums go unchecked, you give a green light for slanders, as posters often become self-entitled to bash anything under their 'Freedom of expression'. This is true for official game forums, as news websites or simply fan sites. Also, haters do have their own agenda. Here are some examples: They hate theme parks and want to promote sandboxes, they hate PVE and want to promote PVP, they hate anything that is not Guild Wars 2, or they hate SOE and everything coming from it.
Well if you dont say anything, how will the developers know what need fixing?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Aren't you negating one of your earlier posts with this one? Your first post, I think, was basically "just because some people hate something it doesn't mean it's bad and needs fixing" and now you tell him that if he doesn't say when he hates a game/game mechanic the devs won't fix it.
This guy pretty much nailed it.
I think the idea here is that we see little innovation in the MMORPG market because the developers want to stick with what was proven to work in the WoW model, hence why so many new MMOs resemble a title released almost 7 years ago. The problem is that the community members of those games are populated by a lot of spurned ex-WoW players, and quite simply the developers are listening to the wrong group of people. In the end, you have a game that isn't well received by the community that supported it pre-launch because of its similarity to WoW nor is it received by the millions. current WoW players because it lacks so many features that said game's forum community whined was so detrimental to the game.
You forgot one thing. It's not received by the millions of WoW fans because they are...drum roll please...PLAYING WoW!
WoW is the best "WoW clone" out there. Even if a developer made a game that had exactly the same features as WoW, WoW would still be better because it has had so long to accumulate content. The ONLY thing that developers of a pure WoW clone can bank on is having better graphics just because the game is newer. But what's more important to MMORPG players? Slightly better graphics? Or TONS of content?
Also, Blizzard are the masters of perfecting a tried and true concept. No developer is going to make WoW better than Blizzard did. It would be like a company trying to make a better Starcraft, not happening. The only RTS's that competed with Warcraft for a while (Command and Conquer, Age of Empires) did so because they were all different. They all offered different experiences.
We need DIFFERENTIATION. REAL differentiation.
Making WoW with a more flexible class system isn't enough.
Making WoW that's bloodier and has combo-based melee combat is not enough.
Making WoW that has RvR is not enough.
Making WoW with flying is not enough.
Developers need to either:
1. Look at every inch of WoW and ask "what could have been done better?" Then make that game. (Hopefully Guild Wars 2)
2. Don't use WoW as the template for your game. Be original, think from the ground up. Take concepts that worked from ALL MMORPGs, and apply them as well as inventing new concepts.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
haters are a strange breed. They spend their days and hours picking or starting topics to push whatever agenda they deem worthy. They also quote the hell out of someone when they see a valid point that runs contrary to thier own. In a desire or fit of nerd rage they attempt to move the discussuion off topic by quoting the shit out of the person that pissed them off.
Valid points go out the window after a hater gets called on something and most cases they get a ban/warning or the topic gets locked. the ultimate goal for them is to disrupt a topic and get it locked, or to make other people go off topic with them.
it never ends well, you end up with countless pages of quotes if they leave, and the job they set out to do is complete until they come back to see the topic again and necro it.
For the most part and this is just my own thinking on this, I would have to agree with the poster for at least one reason. As a vet WoW player from beta till just 2 months ago I could never understand how some of these forum ragers ever had anytime at all to play when they were ALL OVER the forums flaming, trolling and just trying to be the biggest @%&;* they could be all the time. And this wasnt just in WoW either it seemed like a problem in every mmo I've ever played except lotro. Really now, how could these people post something like 200+ times a day and still have anytime left for any sort of mmo gaming?
Like the OP said most of my friends and myself never really spent too much time on the forums expect for the odd researching of this or that cause we were too busy actually playing said mmo. Much like the trolls in MMORPG.coms forums who have posted thousands of post ranting and raving about anything they could, most rage queens dont play much if any games at all, because they find little to no enjoyment in games or most likely anything else other than trying to ruin it for others that do. Thats not to say that there are not gamers that are also trolls, I just doubt that there is as many.
That's all well and good, but I really don't see the link between haters being annoying in general and them ruining the entire MMO genre. Reverse halo effect anyone
?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Bingo, you can't out-WOW Blizzard. You might pull people away for a bit, but you'll never make a game similar to WOW that can really compete with WOW in the long term. If you really want to shake up the market you're going to have to do something different.
And if haters really had any influence on game design we'd have driven a stake through the heart of the standard themepark model.
Fact is, like it or not, we're largely irrelevant, whether we like or hate a game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon