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PvP
norriscj
Member Posts: 107
This is something that I can't find the answer to on the HJ web site so I figured this is a good place to post such a question.
Will there be any PvP in Hero's Journey? If so, what type of PvP? Will it be only in an 'arena' or will it be a free-for-all. Organized or unorganized?
Here are two polls from this very web site:
1) What aspect of MMORPG's are you more into?
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21.3%There are quite a LOT of people who find PvP the BEST part of a game.
2) What are your views on PvP?
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This poll shows that just under 40% of the players on this site think that PvP is the best part about MMORPG's! With over 75% of people saying that they either like PvP or dont really care and less than 25% of people saying that they do NOT like PvP, I most certainly hope that the devs at Simu are putting a lot of time and effort into a specific aspect that will make or break this game for so many people.
Comments
I believe I read that there will be PvP on specific servers. Separate servers for RP, PvP, PvE, etc... What I hope for is a PvP situation similar to DR (maybe an RP/PvP combo server), where you can kill anywhere, even in town, but you risk Jail, Reputation decreases, and where general ganking is closely monitored and discouraged by one of the many active, ever-watching GMs.
Heck... why don't I just say it... I want DR directly and exactly ported to 3D, damnit!
Anything that is difficult (impossible) to translate from Text to Graphics should be figured out and done anyway by Simu's team. Now go and do my bidding!
Simu's said a few times that there will be PvP in the game. They haven't released any details yet though other than to say there will be specific PvP servers which may mean that not every server will be PvP. But there will be some sort of PvP in the game. I think they probably won't make a final decision on what type of PvP until after beta testing.
I think they have PvP in all of their current games, and I know one for sure, Gemstone, allows PvP just about everywhere, including towns. There are of course consequences for killing people inside of town. That reminds me of a time where I was in town just minding my own business and someone I didn't even know comes up to me and kills me for no reason whatsoever except the player of that character just felt like killing someone. That type of OOC killing gets you banned. What was so great about that was I didn't even have to report him. A GM must have been watching because that guy was taken care of very quickly. But as far as in character killings, if you do it in town then you could be arrested and then put on trial and I'm not even sure what the punishments are. I think they range from fines to loss of items to community service and maybe worse.
They also have an arena that occasionally hosts PvP tournaments. I'm hoping that there is at least one arena in HJ and I hope that it's open all of the time, unlike the one in Gemstone.
I would love to see criminal penalties. Let anyone do anything...but if they get caught...they should pay.
That being said, it wont break my heart if theirs no PvP.
Yeah I've heard they will have PvP servers and RPing servers. The problem here is that I like hard core RPing but I also like pvp.
By the way someone who comes up and randomly kills you is not automaticly OOC. He just may be a crazy Serial Killer.
I played GS3 for quite a while and I can tell you that my rogue has spent pleanty of time in jail for killing people in and around town. Its just the price he must pay for respect.
Feared and respected at the same time. Vengence is mine sayeth Zee.
I do, however, think that there MUST be some sort of punishment for killing people. But I must have the option to kill someone anytime I see fit. HJ is focusing on making every player a HERO. What kind of Hero couldn't kill an infamous theif that has just stole the coins right out of a poor beggars cup?
I wouldn't mind seeing villains playable...but balancing the two is very difficult (see Ultima Online). It can be great fun, but sometimes the community refuses to police itself (see Ultima Online free servers).
PvP is not all my cup of tea, atleast WOW had a great reason why you do it.But in saying that as long as its policed by Gms adn has in game penalties it does add o the spice of tha game.If you killa thief for stealin its a bit over board isnt it? People wanna spar in a certain are or out of town is ok.But when WOW put their honour system in all you see in their little towns/cities is people dueling each other for the ranks!! thats not addng anything productive to the gameplay..What about the cities have guards that do the ingame arresting and deal with general 'villain' professions.
Have Simu said if their will be GMs around or not?
May the wind always be at your back and your arrows fly true.
True, but in this case he was OOC. He spat off some OOC nonsense that I can't remember. A GM saw the entire thing which is why he was banned instead of just facing some in game punishment. Simu has some of if not the best GM's in the business. They're not perfect by any means, but I think the way GM's work in handling matters in Gemstone is far better than anything I've experienced in any other MMORPG. They handle occurances like this very well. In this particular case, the GM knew the guy was OOC instead of just going on an in character killing spree.
From all of the interviews that I've read here and elsewhere, Simu will put in PvP server(s).
As a long time player of Simu's stuff, they will do this the right way unlike other unmentioned MMOs.
This is their BIG TIME SHOT and I just can't think that they will let us down.
-- The Maxx
But there is no pressure or anything...right guys?
<Slinks back to work determined not to let the adoring fans down...>
-Oblivion
HJ-Oblivion
Hero's Journey Gamemaster
www.play.net/hj/
*Puts on Oblivion's shackles*
No... no pressure at all
PvP, at least in Gemstone didn't mean having to kill someone. As a rogue, I poured a decent amount of skill points into perception and it paid off more than once. More than once I left someone legless or armless for trying to steal my gems. I think it's a VERY important aspect to a RP game if players can feel that, or know that, their actions have consequences good or bad. I think the Gemstone III PvP system was probably the best system I've ever played in. Between PvP anywhere and actual character perma-death, I'd say that probably 90% of the players I ran into treated each other with respect in regards to just random PvP and mayhem.
I have to say that I don't entirely trust the polls on this site. Sometime ago a statement was made that an overwhelming amount of people disliked paying for online items with real life money. But if you looked at the poll... it wasn't "overwhelming".
Someone from the site then said that if 3 people filled out the poll then that is where the numbers could come from.
So I'm not so sure that there is a huge amount of people who feel that pvp is the best part of a game. And if they do, it doesn't mean that they want open pvp. Personally I like pvp but I would prefer an environment where people didn't have to participate if they didn't want to (go figure that the game I play as my main game is Lineage 2!!!).
It will be interesting to see how they implement it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
When Simu really started focusing on HJ, I was extremely interested. I've been a DR player for awhile, and like the game for the most part, but the weakest part of Simutronics has always been PvP. DragonRealms has a dedicated PvP Instance (The Fallen), but it was done all wrong.
Rather than provide a PVP environment, Simu threw up an instance, and said "here...no rules." Not good. PvP environments require moderation. The perfect PvP would have been DR, with no concept of "consent to PvP", but leave the remaining rules and GM resources in place. They failed in that in DR, and based on past experience, I would think they will fail at PvP in HJ as well.
You can't please everyone. I've played SWG, where PvP is largely consensual, and there are rules governing the killing of other players. A large number of people complain that this is too "carebear".
Now I play WoW. On my PvP server, there are no rules. The servers are set up so that extremely low level areas are consensual, and pretty much everywhere else is a free for all. Corpse camping and "ganking" are rampant, and people cry that this is too much, they need more rules! (And some people still call it "carebear")
I don't think any one game will ever fit everyone's style of PvP. For myself, I think that a reality based system would be the ideal goal for PvP. You can do what you want, when you want, with the realization that whatever you do has consequences. You want to kill a bunch of people in a bar fight? Go for it. Steal from everyone you meet? Go right ahead. Just don't cry to a GM when the guards at every town you visit kill you on site, and roving gangs of players you have wronged hunt you down for pleasure every five minutes. A few days of not being able to repair your equipment, buy supplies, or leave your hideout should convince most people that some discretion is advisable.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star
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Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
I agree with you totally. The problem is, in most MMOs to date (and I play Asheron's Call atm, which has an extremely dedicated PvP Community and one of the best PvP envrironments I've ever experienced, and it is not exempted from this), PvP is designed as an afterthought. "Oh, we'll put it on its own server, that way we don't have to worry about it". It becomes the bastard child of the project, and when new content gets added, whats at the very bottom of the list of "things we'll evaluate our changes against if we have time and nothing better to do?" -- PvP balance.
Every MMO's PvP has decayed over time because of a frighteningly universal negligence on the part of development staffs. Its amazing that people get away with it, I know if I put out updates to my software and completly broke/neglected one major section, I'd be looking for a job rather quickly. The first game I find that is focused on PvP that doesn't absolutely suck out of the box (Shadowbane, Lineage, Anarchy "Off"line), is the first game I glady buy a lifetime subscription to.
I'd like to hear something definitive about PvP in HJ, not "well, just before we go live we'll set the servers' 'Allow PK' bit to 1, and then you guys that want to can play PvP".
Well.. I think Lineage 2 has a good pvp system though I do see how some think it is hardcore and some think it is too carebear (you turn red if you kill a person unless in a siege).
And I think the best statement is that ther are so many people who want so many different things in a pvp system that you aren't going to appease everyone.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'd have to put my vote in for DR's consent system because it isn't the same type of consent you see in WoW PvE servers or SWG where you have to consciously turn on a flag with a /pvp command or attack someone first.
Stealing someone's coins from their pocket, items from their grave or simply insulting them is consent in DR. It leads to a community that, for the most part, polices itself. The jail system in town is a great one and is very RP-friendly as well. The only weak link is that the grey areas often come into play at which point a GM makes a judgement call based on text logs which A) takes up much of a GM's time (imagine this having to be done on the scale of WoW's population of millions) and
requires fair and impartial GM's.
Regardless, all PvP systems have their weaknesses and, in my opinion, the PvP in DR is the best way to handle it. The possibility of permanent character death if the PvP'er doesn't have favors is a good way to slow down the killing, along with the time-outs handed down automatically for killing more than a few times in any 24 hour period. This works well and, if enough GM's can be employed to make the judgement calls, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Yeah someone brought up that idea on the Simu Official Forums for HJ. Have a police force and consequences for killing players. I think PvP should be a part of the game... but the hard thing is making a PvP system that works good with PvE also.
DR's consent system was a great idea on paper, but one that really didn't work in practice, because of the lack of a concrete definition of "consent". GMs and Players went (and probably still) back and forth over this one for a long time.
Stealing coins, for example, was consent depending on what GMs were working at the time. So much of what constituted consent PvP was left up to staff interpretation, and indeed, you could get two very different interpretations for the exact same incident depending on who was working.
The idea of GMs reviewing the situation to determine consent is good, but a set of hard and fast rules needs to be applied. A GM should look at the log, and look at his/her list of PvP rules, and make the decision that way.
Taking the coin stealing example, lets say Player A steals from Player B. B smites A righteously, and A reports to a GM. Now, GM A is online, and he says "Tough. You stole, you got killed. Move along."
Next day, Player A steals from Player C. C kills A, and A reports. GM B is online, and says "Stealing is a normal part of the game, and isn't consent to kill someone". C gets warned/banned/whatever.
This happened virtually every day in DR, and led to probably the greatest quote in GM history
"Portense, for you, stealing is not consent to PvP" -- Nova
If PvP is going to exist in HJ, it needs hard and fast rules. Now, rules can be adjusted, and the consent model can be turned into a great model for governing PvP, but not if its going to be a strict copy of the DR implementation.
Wow. Well said. I said I'd sworn off the fantasy genre after World of Warcraft came out with thier Honor points system. I enjoy PvP, but simply grinding players instead of mobs is not the same thing. HJ has caught my eye though, and I'm very interested in seeing how this game progresses. I won't play a game without some form of PvP, particularily end-game, and I think the system you just mentioned is about as good as it gets. Doesn't EVE use a system very similar to this? A realistic player run justice system, has been prevalent for years on MUD's. I'd love to see an introduction to it here.
I was really hoping to hear that there would be some sort of group based combat possibilities in this game, but from what I'm reading here, that seems very unlikely.
Ah well. I guess I will keep searching for the next game I'm going to get into. Popping into instances and the occasional duel just isn't the type of combat I was hoping for.
Simu does a number of things incredibly well. They really do the customer service, hands-on interaction with GMs very well. They know the players' desire for fluff and uniqueness perfectly.
PvP is not their strong suit. I really hope someone will post up here and prove me wrong, but I won't hold my breath.
I certainly hope they do put CvC in the RP server.
I don't think you can be a hero without being able to fight other "heros" and show them who is boss.
Me of course. :P Just kidding.
But more seriously, I'm quite sure with their usually-awesome GM interaction and the staff Simu's got they'll pull together a beautiful CvC system.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
I liked the way pvp was in gemstone. It allowed for some awesome roleplaying. On the other hand, one thing you have to remember is with a game like gemstone, you might have 1000 to 3000 people playing, period, and often times, much less than that. It is a LOT easier to police and GM that than it would be for 20 servers with 1000+ on each one.
I still remember some of my pvp moments in GS with fondness, much more so than any other game I have played. It wasn't about material rewards, or "ganking" people. Most times any pvp was roleplay oriented, and it was awesome.
I've seen everything from a thief getting imploded by stealing a trapped gem, to people being sacrificed in religious ceremonies, to legendary types duking it out all over town as part of a storyline.
Hell, I even ended up in stockades a couple time with people throwing rotted fruit at me because I didn't know about a new kind of trap on a chest and accidentally blew up 20 or so people, lol.
I loved everything about that set up. If simu could pull that off in an MMO, they would be the gods of designers...I don't see that happening though, it seems like a gargantuan task.