Not only can you buy every weapon or ship in game with RL money, you can also buy 7 year old characters with max skills if you have enough RL money, all sanctioned on the forums by CCP.
There is no clearer definition of P2W than EvE.
Generally any game that has a subscription and a long-grind is Pay2Win, or an alternative phrase Grind2Win, and any game that releases expansions that increase the level cap, etc.
Not only can you buy every weapon or ship in game with RL money, you can also buy 7 year old characters with max skills if you have enough RL money, all sanctioned on the forums by CCP.
There is no clearer definition of P2W than EvE.
Generally any game that has a subscription and a long-grind is Pay2Win, or an alternative phrase Grind2Win, and any game that releases expansions that increase the level cap, etc.
Not that i didn't enjoy EvE.. I thought it was fun and even got into living in lowsec, with a few corp trips to null.
I don't mind paying for any game as long as i'm having fun.
And it didn't really bother me that someone else spent 2k on buying characters and ships, even the best geared/skilled character in eve can die from being in the wrong place and jumping through the wrong gate without eyes, at the wrong time
Not only can you buy every weapon or ship in game with RL money, you can also buy 7 year old characters with max skills if you have enough RL money, all sanctioned on the forums by CCP.
There is no clearer definition of P2W than EvE.
You see it as "Total SP = Win". The fact that you mentioned character age reflect this. This is where you are TOTALLY wrong. The amount of SP will only open up options to you, not pwn the next guy you see. Newbies excluded, though sometimes newbies pwn veterans too (in eve).
Originally posted by BrenelaelWithout customers there is no business... End of Line.
Bren
You can have a business with lots of customers, just it does not mean you will make lots of money nor that you will last and there is no business without money in the first place...
There is no difference between a cash shop and looting an NPC, both items are artificially generated out of thin air.
Not so much. In game resources were spent to kill the NPC (ammo, time) or to craft a module/ship. Additionally, those dropped items, in a majority of cases are not as good as the crafted items or become materials to manufacture the crafted items via refining or invention. There are some higher end drops, but they are prohibitively expensive to buy on contract and usually impractical to fit due to the fact it can be lost in a fight.
Now, if the 'cash shop' were implemented a bit more like the LP store in the game, with trade-ins of standard modules for the comparable faction module, then I think that'd be a bit more of a grey area and possibly worth looking into. It'd be more in line with the idea that PLEX enables the player with disposable income to participate more readily whereas the player with more time can still leverage the LP store via faction standing and such instead of AUR. Not sure what that would do to the market/contracts systems though, and if that would create 'price controls' to some extent, so could be a bad idea when examined a bit further i suppose...
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Not only can you buy every weapon or ship in game with RL money, you can also buy 7 year old characters with max skills if you have enough RL money, all sanctioned on the forums by CCP.
There is no clearer definition of P2W than EvE.
pay to win how?
every weapon and ship has to come from playing the game. it's either looted or built by someone else, and put on market.
7-year old character has to be trained for 7 years and be offered on market.
even if you buy all that, there is ALWAYS bigger fish in EVE. the most expensive ship can be still be destroyed and then it's gone.
For me, the risk vs reward is what makes/made(?) EVE Online so good and the player driven market is great. If CCP had gone ahead with a cash shop and allow ships/items/important stuff to be purchased with real cash, CCP would remove those 2 great factors which makes EVE so good for me.
I'm stuck without an MMO to play because I did plan on returning to EVE, but not now. As a player of 6 years with a very high skillpoint chartacter, I feel burned by CCP wanting to turn EVE into something I would have never originally bought into.
There is no difference between a cash shop and looting an NPC, both items are artificially generated out of thin air.
Not so much. In game resources were spent to kill the NPC (ammo, time) or to craft a module/ship. Additionally, those dropped items, in a majority of cases are not as good as the crafted items or become materials to manufacture the crafted items via refining or invention. There are some higher end drops, but they are prohibitively expensive to buy on contract and usually impractical to fit due to the fact it can be lost in a fight.
Now, if the 'cash shop' were implemented a bit more like the LP store in the game, with trade-ins of standard modules for the comparable faction module, then I think that'd be a bit more of a grey area and possibly worth looking into. It'd be more in line with the idea that PLEX enables the player with disposable income to participate more readily whereas the player with more time can still leverage the LP store via faction standing and such instead of AUR. Not sure what that would do to the market/contracts systems though, and if that would create 'price controls' to some extent, so could be a bad idea when examined a bit further i suppose...
This isn't SWG where crafted items are suddenly always inferior to mob drops with the N.G.E., completely destroying the economy. In Eve you will just have a few rich kids paying to win, it won't effect the economy.
I just hope CCP, as well as all game teams eventually learn something.
Yep, they learned that forum feedback is worthless and that people spend money on MT, regardless whether there is a monthly fee or not.
Also, they learned that nerd rage is just a nerd rage...
It's usually not a decision that the dev teams themselves actually make. It invariably becomes a production decision. Since CCP is both producer and developer this just means it was someone higher up in the company who wanted to squeeze more money out of the game. Why they decided to do this only now is beyond me.They have had 7-8 years of the usual subscription methods and have had 4(?) years of selling PLEX. Does this mean that in another 4 years they're going to start selling the expansions?
every weapon and ship has to come from playing the game. it's either looted or built by someone else, and put on market.
7-year old character has to be trained for 7 years and be offered on market.
even if you buy all that, there is ALWAYS bigger fish in EVE. the most expensive ship can be still be destroyed and then it's gone.
if anything EVE is "pay to lose".
You must be an EVE player, you seem to understand what so many on these forums don't. Personally, I find it so humorous to read about winning in EVE, I just don't even bother.
I guess the main thing is, anytime you choose to go outside the normal grind for isk system, there are real consequences. You have to be prepared to grind or pay regularly just to break even. It's not like you are buying anything special, or for a special reason.
Pay 2 Win is based on the idea that you can pay to beat another player, and the other player will never know. There is nothing like that in EVE currently. Not by legal means.
Ok for the Nex Store = Clothes and Paint jobs for ships is fine
Not ok for the Nex Store = Ships , Instant Skill training (very very bad idea)
even if they did add ships and instant skill training what do you think the price point would be 100 bucks + atelast. come on the damn cloths they released is 1-3 plex each. so thats 15-45 bucks. ships prob be even higher looking 150 bucks. if some guy realy thinks paying that price for an item in a game is worth it that will just be blown up by a blob 30 min later is worth it. good for him.
Free skill points from cash shop would be intresting, but they wont be cheap either. I saw some guy saying oh faction amo and implats. lets see implants you can lose every time you log into the game, unless your just sitting in the doc all day. faction amo isnt better then tech 2 amo and if your flying a good ship with good skills you shouldent be using faction amo to begain with.
Generally any game that has a subscription and a long-grind is Pay2Win, or an alternative phrase Grind2Win, and any game that releases expansions that increase the level cap, etc.
The difference is if the game company enforce their EULA or not (I assume EVE also has something about the ownership of virtual goods). You can buy anything illegal in this world, but it is still not allowed and if caught it has consequences. Some companies have more or less given up, and others try to keep their games clean(er). Allowing/Ignoring trades of virtual goods is the real issue, not how much purchases will help a player.
Grind to win is honest (means you played the game and earned your stuff on fair terms) = I can respect you.
Buy to win is (finish the sentence yourself)..
If you buy virtual goods in any game, you should really ask yourself why you play games.
Not a flame, it's just the impression I have had for a long while of this game... Just looking for clarity tbh
You guys have traded plexes for ISK for a long time right? Which is a form of buying in game currency for RL money right?
This ISK can then be used to buy skills and gear?
I only ask beause of the recent outrage over 'P2W'... it seems little has actually changed if you look at the core practise.
Can someone explain plz?
This. Totally forgot about this when reading all the P2Win shenanigans. Is it because it isn't 1 step, it's three?
Now As it Is: 1) Get Plex with real money
2) Exchange Plex for fake money
3) Get ships, etc. with fake money.
Versus: 1) Exchange real money for ships, etc.
EVE players seem to want apologies from the devs, but the devs have every right to believe that this system would work based on how EVE players have interacted with one another in the past. It really is baffling to see the kind of backlash that has formed in response to some leaked dox.
Generally any game that has a subscription and a long-grind is Pay2Win, or an alternative phrase Grind2Win, and any game that releases expansions that increase the level cap, etc.
The difference is if the game company enforce their EULA or not (I assume EVE also has something about the ownership of virtual goods). You can buy anything illegal in this world, but it is still not allowed and if caught it has consequences. Some companies have more or less given up, and others try to keep their games clean(er). Allowing/Ignoring trades of virtual goods is the real issue, not how much purchases will help a player.
Grind to win is honest (means you played the game and earned your stuff on fair terms) = I can respect you.
Buy to win is (finish the sentence yourself)..
If you buy virtual goods in any game, you should really ask yourself why you play games.
I wonder if you Pay2Win hater folks will have a little sympathy now for those who also hate Grind2Win as equally as they hate Pay2Win. I don't play Eve or WOW cause they are both Grind2Win games, in fact I don't play anything at all.
IT IS POSSIBLE to make a fun game with progression that isn't Grind2Win or Pay2Win, just use a little damn imagination.
A few games like this coming up. This is what I've always said, why isn't is possible for devs to make a persistent game where everyone is on equal footing with maybe a small variance in gear or class, and actually having content that keeps people around instead of the ding to the next level.
Still, Grinding does end usually (few exceptions) and paying only ends where the player's wallet ends. Pay2Win is far worse for that reason, it can be very constant.
EVE players seem to want apologies from the devs, but the devs have every right to believe that this system would work based on how EVE players have interacted with one another in the past. It really is baffling to see the kind of backlash that has formed in response to some leaked dox.
No, I don't think it's baffling or hard to understand at all.
EVE players seem to want apologies from the devs, but the devs have every right to believe that this system would work based on how EVE players have interacted with one another in the past. It really is baffling to see the kind of backlash that has formed in response to some leaked dox.
No, I don't think it's baffling or hard to understand at all.
You've been completely fine with a system allowing people to purchase in-game currency, so what the hell is different now? It's the same thing as it's always been, and it's a naive attitude to suggest otherwise. I've read the responses of the people claiming that PLEX is not Pay to Win and I am simply not at all convinced. It throws off the balance from what it should have been initially. Now people defend the system because it has become the balance. That "balance," from the view of outsiders, is completely skewed from the way it should be. The people in-between casual and hardcore players are completely boned and remain mediocre while the older players remain kings and the newer players who purchase ISK quickly rise through the ranks.
And I initially felt bad for the EVE players, but after remembering PLEX, my opinion is completely changed.
If CCP sticks to their guns and keeps this system, we'll see EVE fanboys defending cash shop transactions because it will become the norm. You brought this onto yourselves with your ludicrous PLEX system setting the Real Money Transaction precedent, and with the unwarranted belief that CCP was somehow "different" than the other devs. Everyone is Activision at heart.
There is a big difference between the usual p2w cash shop items by themselves, you just can't put them all in the same bag, and say "ye they all give an edge so they are all the same". There is a clear progression into them.
For me Plex are not real RMT or cash shop stuff, they are at the border for sure, but not entirely in. First their purpose isn't to get you ingame money, they are made to get you ingame time for ingame currency. They made it buyable for real money probably to fight wild RMT and reduce its influence.
But even if some people, and some really do it, buy some plex to get already skilled toon, so ye they get adventage for sure. But let be honest, its just a pain in the ass. WHo want to buy game cards in a subbing game? not much people really, the alt freaks, and that's it really.
Its a bit like saying, wowowow, you put 10dollar items its the same as p2win items, people can buy 20 of them and resell them and give huge amount of money ingame. Sure they can, but it is probably too painfull for most people. Those are real vanity items, not because they are vanity, but because they don't put you into the real money transaction process. That is where the difference lie to me at least.
Now put the same item for 100dolar, ye its a lot easier now, especially because those item probably goes like donnuts ingame, everyone wants them, they are so rare and cool. This really ease you access to that adge, still a bit painfull though, since you need the market and it mean a bit of risk, not much though. But ye you get access now to real money transaction for sure. This is also why those items are attractive beyond the wow it look nice, most people don't give a fuck about the vanity aspect of those, they know it mean large sum of ingame currency, and this make them even more attractive.
Now give direct boost, i don't know already skilled toon, boost xp, or super weapon upgrades. You don't even need the ingame market to get what you want, and those items usually give all the panoply for your need really.
So to come back to the subject, sure Plex can give you an edge, but in practice it probably won't, its just too painfull for most people to get to that point, and risky and everything isn't really helping here. Only the most hard core might use such methods. And really it was designed to be that way, reduce RMT, and to be an hassle to abuse. Nothing even comparable to how p2w items are designed for, they are at the other end of the spectrum really. They might look similar in theory, but in practice its not the same at all.
4) someone builds ships to sell on the market with the ore, salvage and researched datacores
5) Get ships, etc. with fake money from the person who built the ship.
Versus: 1) Exchange real money for ships, etc.
EVE players seem to want apologies from the devs, but the devs have every right to believe that this system would work based on how EVE players have interacted with one another in the past. It really is baffling to see the kind of backlash that has formed in response to some leaked dox.
I fixed your scenario
The problem with version two is you cut out steps 3 and 4 marginalizing the ingame economy which is one of if not the biggest draw of EVE.
4) someone builds ships to sell on the market with the ore, salvage and researched datacores
5) Get ships, etc. with fake money from the person who built the ship.
Versus: 1) Exchange real money for ships, etc.
EVE players seem to want apologies from the devs, but the devs have every right to believe that this system would work based on how EVE players have interacted with one another in the past. It really is baffling to see the kind of backlash that has formed in response to some leaked dox.
I fixed your scenario
The problem with version two is you cut out steps 3 and 4 marginalizing the ingame economy which is one of if not the biggest draw of EVE.
However that doesn't change the fact that it is still Pay 2 Win.
Yes the way system works it currently doesn't ruin the economy inside the game but I can still buy the most pimped out ship in the game with real money by simply buying PLEX.
Current system keeps the value of PLEXs in check, thus if too many people start buying PLEXs to do this the cost of PLEXs will go down BUT that still doesn't change the fact that I can get myself some of the best gear game has to offer with real money (via PLEX conversion).
EVE went P2W long time ago, now people just don't want economy ruined via use of MTs. I generally don't mind people buying PLEX to get ISK but especially at early stages it is becoming a nesseaty to compete. Having stayed at some of the noob corps over the last 3 months it always comes down people saying I don't want to grind ISK to BS I will just go buy PLEX. From one perspective it does save them time from another, people don't value ships and ISK as much as they did prior to PLEX, since all it comes down to spending 15$ to get PLEX, selling it and buying 3 battleships.
Nah good old EVE that so many of us grew to love is gone. For many of us it just didn't click until now.
4) someone builds ships to sell on the market with the ore, salvage and researched datacores
5) Get ships, etc. with fake money from the person who built the ship.
Versus: 1) Exchange real money for ships, etc.
EVE players seem to want apologies from the devs, but the devs have every right to believe that this system would work based on how EVE players have interacted with one another in the past. It really is baffling to see the kind of backlash that has formed in response to some leaked dox.
I fixed your scenario
The problem with version two is you cut out steps 3 and 4 marginalizing the ingame economy which is one of if not the biggest draw of EVE.
However that doesn't change the fact that it is still Pay 2 Win.
Yes the way system works it currently doesn't ruin the economy inside the game but I can still buy the most pimped out ship in the game with real money by simply buying PLEX.
Current system keeps the value of PLEXs in check, thus if too many people start buying PLEXs to do this the cost of PLEXs will go down BUT that still doesn't change the fact that I can get myself some of the best gear game has to offer with real money (via PLEX conversion).
EVE went P2W long time ago, now people just don't want economy ruined via use of MTs. I generally don't mind people buying PLEX to get ISK but especially at early stages it is becoming a nesseaty to compete. Having stayed at some of the noob corps over the last 3 months it always comes down people saying I don't want to grind ISK to BS I will just go buy PLEX. From one perspective it does save them time from another, people don't value ships and ISK as much as they did prior to PLEX, since all it comes down to spending 15$ to get PLEX, selling it and buying 3 battleships.
Nah good old EVE that so many of us grew to love is gone. For many of us it just didn't click until now.
if you want to look at it as p2w I dont care. We aren't angery about p2w perse but the damage to the economy that the above scenario would bring. I think there would be far less resitance to it if they were say selling bpcs that required people to actually gather resources and build things in game. Whether its p2w or not is a semantic issue the real issue is the damage to the economy in game.
4) someone builds ships to sell on the market with the ore, salvage and researched datacores
5) Get ships, etc. with fake money from the person who built the ship.
Versus: 1) Exchange real money for ships, etc.
EVE players seem to want apologies from the devs, but the devs have every right to believe that this system would work based on how EVE players have interacted with one another in the past. It really is baffling to see the kind of backlash that has formed in response to some leaked dox.
I fixed your scenario
The problem with version two is you cut out steps 3 and 4 marginalizing the ingame economy which is one of if not the biggest draw of EVE.
However that doesn't change the fact that it is still Pay 2 Win.
Yes the way system works it currently doesn't ruin the economy inside the game but I can still buy the most pimped out ship in the game with real money by simply buying PLEX.
Current system keeps the value of PLEXs in check, thus if too many people start buying PLEXs to do this the cost of PLEXs will go down BUT that still doesn't change the fact that I can get myself some of the best gear game has to offer with real money (via PLEX conversion).
EVE went P2W long time ago, now people just don't want economy ruined via use of MTs. I generally don't mind people buying PLEX to get ISK but especially at early stages it is becoming a nesseaty to compete. Having stayed at some of the noob corps over the last 3 months it always comes down people saying I don't want to grind ISK to BS I will just go buy PLEX. From one perspective it does save them time from another, people don't value ships and ISK as much as they did prior to PLEX, since all it comes down to spending 15$ to get PLEX, selling it and buying 3 battleships.
Nah good old EVE that so many of us grew to love is gone. For many of us it just didn't click until now.
if you want to look at it as p2w I dont care. We aren't angery about p2w perse but the damage to the economy that the above scenario would bring. I think there would be far less resitance to it if they were say selling bpcs that required people to actually gather resources and build things in game. Whether its p2w or not is a semantic issue the real issue is the damage to the economy in game.
So true.
As a current eve player, I'm not upset about the cash shop. Well I am, but not because it's a cash shop. Personally, I think all the prices are redic just for fake clothes. So I'm not touching the cash shop until there is at least cheaper prices.
What I am upset about are a few things. I'm upset about the backtracking by eve. By what they said in the past, and now. I am upset at what could come because of the cash shop from what they've said.
I remember reading that they were going to put in a fancy scorpion into the cash shop. What would be fine is if it required a scorpion already. Like in the LP store. You can buy a Navy ship, but it requires the ship already, lp, and sometimes some extra ISK as well. This is fine, producers are still producing. If it turns out someone can just buy a fancier scorpion with nothing but cash, you're putting people out of jobs. So to speak.
If the cash shop is just vanity items, I couldn't give two flying fucks. Currently, I give one flying fuck, because I'm worried about the future. I'm not doing anything drastic like huge threads, unsubbing, crap like that. Nah. I'm just going to play business as usual until CCP announces something to give the other flying fuck about. I'm just a little more aware of what's going on in the patches now. Instead of just skimming larger patch notes for anything to catch my eye, I'll actually read more of them now.
The second CCP cuts out the production middle man though, I'm out. That's a huge game changer for some people who play, and I won't give any more money to a company willing to do something like that in their game. Who knows, something I like to do in Eve could be next if they do something like that.
if you want to look at it as p2w I dont care. We aren't angery about p2w perse but the damage to the economy that the above scenario would bring. I think there would be far less resitance to it if they were say selling bpcs that required people to actually gather resources and build things in game. Whether its p2w or not is a semantic issue the real issue is the damage to the economy in game.
Maybe that is the real issue for you, but for me, any game which allows players to buy IG items and characters for RL money and then use that in competetive PvP is a real issue.
And as others have pointed out, this has been going on ever since PLEX could be bought by real money, converted it IG currency, and characters could be sold for IG currency.
Comments
Generally any game that has a subscription and a long-grind is Pay2Win, or an alternative phrase Grind2Win, and any game that releases expansions that increase the level cap, etc.
Sure, because their sales are so awesome...
You still mistake the cause and effect.
Not that i didn't enjoy EvE.. I thought it was fun and even got into living in lowsec, with a few corp trips to null.
I don't mind paying for any game as long as i'm having fun.
And it didn't really bother me that someone else spent 2k on buying characters and ships, even the best geared/skilled character in eve can die from being in the wrong place and jumping through the wrong gate without eyes, at the wrong time
my web design: www.advancedws.com.au
You see it as "Total SP = Win". The fact that you mentioned character age reflect this. This is where you are TOTALLY wrong. The amount of SP will only open up options to you, not pwn the next guy you see. Newbies excluded, though sometimes newbies pwn veterans too (in eve).
You can have a business with lots of customers, just it does not mean you will make lots of money nor that you will last and there is no business without money in the first place...
Not so much. In game resources were spent to kill the NPC (ammo, time) or to craft a module/ship. Additionally, those dropped items, in a majority of cases are not as good as the crafted items or become materials to manufacture the crafted items via refining or invention. There are some higher end drops, but they are prohibitively expensive to buy on contract and usually impractical to fit due to the fact it can be lost in a fight.
Now, if the 'cash shop' were implemented a bit more like the LP store in the game, with trade-ins of standard modules for the comparable faction module, then I think that'd be a bit more of a grey area and possibly worth looking into. It'd be more in line with the idea that PLEX enables the player with disposable income to participate more readily whereas the player with more time can still leverage the LP store via faction standing and such instead of AUR. Not sure what that would do to the market/contracts systems though, and if that would create 'price controls' to some extent, so could be a bad idea when examined a bit further i suppose...
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
pay to win how?
every weapon and ship has to come from playing the game. it's either looted or built by someone else, and put on market.
7-year old character has to be trained for 7 years and be offered on market.
even if you buy all that, there is ALWAYS bigger fish in EVE. the most expensive ship can be still be destroyed and then it's gone.
if anything EVE is "pay to lose".
For me, the risk vs reward is what makes/made(?) EVE Online so good and the player driven market is great. If CCP had gone ahead with a cash shop and allow ships/items/important stuff to be purchased with real cash, CCP would remove those 2 great factors which makes EVE so good for me.
I'm stuck without an MMO to play because I did plan on returning to EVE, but not now. As a player of 6 years with a very high skillpoint chartacter, I feel burned by CCP wanting to turn EVE into something I would have never originally bought into.
This isn't SWG where crafted items are suddenly always inferior to mob drops with the N.G.E., completely destroying the economy. In Eve you will just have a few rich kids paying to win, it won't effect the economy.
It's usually not a decision that the dev teams themselves actually make. It invariably becomes a production decision. Since CCP is both producer and developer this just means it was someone higher up in the company who wanted to squeeze more money out of the game. Why they decided to do this only now is beyond me.They have had 7-8 years of the usual subscription methods and have had 4(?) years of selling PLEX. Does this mean that in another 4 years they're going to start selling the expansions?
You must be an EVE player, you seem to understand what so many on these forums don't. Personally, I find it so humorous to read about winning in EVE, I just don't even bother.
I guess the main thing is, anytime you choose to go outside the normal grind for isk system, there are real consequences. You have to be prepared to grind or pay regularly just to break even. It's not like you are buying anything special, or for a special reason.
Pay 2 Win is based on the idea that you can pay to beat another player, and the other player will never know. There is nothing like that in EVE currently. Not by legal means.
even if they did add ships and instant skill training what do you think the price point would be 100 bucks + atelast. come on the damn cloths they released is 1-3 plex each. so thats 15-45 bucks. ships prob be even higher looking 150 bucks. if some guy realy thinks paying that price for an item in a game is worth it that will just be blown up by a blob 30 min later is worth it. good for him.
Free skill points from cash shop would be intresting, but they wont be cheap either. I saw some guy saying oh faction amo and implats. lets see implants you can lose every time you log into the game, unless your just sitting in the doc all day. faction amo isnt better then tech 2 amo and if your flying a good ship with good skills you shouldent be using faction amo to begain with.
Maybe because the whole industry is shifting to some form of MT....?
The difference is if the game company enforce their EULA or not (I assume EVE also has something about the ownership of virtual goods). You can buy anything illegal in this world, but it is still not allowed and if caught it has consequences. Some companies have more or less given up, and others try to keep their games clean(er). Allowing/Ignoring trades of virtual goods is the real issue, not how much purchases will help a player.
Grind to win is honest (means you played the game and earned your stuff on fair terms) = I can respect you.
Buy to win is (finish the sentence yourself)..
If you buy virtual goods in any game, you should really ask yourself why you play games.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
This. Totally forgot about this when reading all the P2Win shenanigans. Is it because it isn't 1 step, it's three?
Now As it Is: 1) Get Plex with real money
2) Exchange Plex for fake money
3) Get ships, etc. with fake money.
Versus: 1) Exchange real money for ships, etc.
EVE players seem to want apologies from the devs, but the devs have every right to believe that this system would work based on how EVE players have interacted with one another in the past. It really is baffling to see the kind of backlash that has formed in response to some leaked dox.
Grind2Win is not my cup of tea.
A few games like this coming up. This is what I've always said, why isn't is possible for devs to make a persistent game where everyone is on equal footing with maybe a small variance in gear or class, and actually having content that keeps people around instead of the ding to the next level.
Still, Grinding does end usually (few exceptions) and paying only ends where the player's wallet ends. Pay2Win is far worse for that reason, it can be very constant.
No, I don't think it's baffling or hard to understand at all.
You've been completely fine with a system allowing people to purchase in-game currency, so what the hell is different now? It's the same thing as it's always been, and it's a naive attitude to suggest otherwise. I've read the responses of the people claiming that PLEX is not Pay to Win and I am simply not at all convinced. It throws off the balance from what it should have been initially. Now people defend the system because it has become the balance. That "balance," from the view of outsiders, is completely skewed from the way it should be. The people in-between casual and hardcore players are completely boned and remain mediocre while the older players remain kings and the newer players who purchase ISK quickly rise through the ranks.
And I initially felt bad for the EVE players, but after remembering PLEX, my opinion is completely changed.
If CCP sticks to their guns and keeps this system, we'll see EVE fanboys defending cash shop transactions because it will become the norm. You brought this onto yourselves with your ludicrous PLEX system setting the Real Money Transaction precedent, and with the unwarranted belief that CCP was somehow "different" than the other devs. Everyone is Activision at heart.
There is a big difference between the usual p2w cash shop items by themselves, you just can't put them all in the same bag, and say "ye they all give an edge so they are all the same". There is a clear progression into them.
For me Plex are not real RMT or cash shop stuff, they are at the border for sure, but not entirely in. First their purpose isn't to get you ingame money, they are made to get you ingame time for ingame currency. They made it buyable for real money probably to fight wild RMT and reduce its influence.
But even if some people, and some really do it, buy some plex to get already skilled toon, so ye they get adventage for sure. But let be honest, its just a pain in the ass. WHo want to buy game cards in a subbing game? not much people really, the alt freaks, and that's it really.
Its a bit like saying, wowowow, you put 10dollar items its the same as p2win items, people can buy 20 of them and resell them and give huge amount of money ingame. Sure they can, but it is probably too painfull for most people. Those are real vanity items, not because they are vanity, but because they don't put you into the real money transaction process. That is where the difference lie to me at least.
Now put the same item for 100dolar, ye its a lot easier now, especially because those item probably goes like donnuts ingame, everyone wants them, they are so rare and cool. This really ease you access to that adge, still a bit painfull though, since you need the market and it mean a bit of risk, not much though. But ye you get access now to real money transaction for sure. This is also why those items are attractive beyond the wow it look nice, most people don't give a fuck about the vanity aspect of those, they know it mean large sum of ingame currency, and this make them even more attractive.
Now give direct boost, i don't know already skilled toon, boost xp, or super weapon upgrades. You don't even need the ingame market to get what you want, and those items usually give all the panoply for your need really.
So to come back to the subject, sure Plex can give you an edge, but in practice it probably won't, its just too painfull for most people to get to that point, and risky and everything isn't really helping here. Only the most hard core might use such methods. And really it was designed to be that way, reduce RMT, and to be an hassle to abuse. Nothing even comparable to how p2w items are designed for, they are at the other end of the spectrum really. They might look similar in theory, but in practice its not the same at all.
I fixed your scenario
The problem with version two is you cut out steps 3 and 4 marginalizing the ingame economy which is one of if not the biggest draw of EVE.
However that doesn't change the fact that it is still Pay 2 Win.
Yes the way system works it currently doesn't ruin the economy inside the game but I can still buy the most pimped out ship in the game with real money by simply buying PLEX.
Current system keeps the value of PLEXs in check, thus if too many people start buying PLEXs to do this the cost of PLEXs will go down BUT that still doesn't change the fact that I can get myself some of the best gear game has to offer with real money (via PLEX conversion).
EVE went P2W long time ago, now people just don't want economy ruined via use of MTs. I generally don't mind people buying PLEX to get ISK but especially at early stages it is becoming a nesseaty to compete. Having stayed at some of the noob corps over the last 3 months it always comes down people saying I don't want to grind ISK to BS I will just go buy PLEX. From one perspective it does save them time from another, people don't value ships and ISK as much as they did prior to PLEX, since all it comes down to spending 15$ to get PLEX, selling it and buying 3 battleships.
Nah good old EVE that so many of us grew to love is gone. For many of us it just didn't click until now.
if you want to look at it as p2w I dont care. We aren't angery about p2w perse but the damage to the economy that the above scenario would bring. I think there would be far less resitance to it if they were say selling bpcs that required people to actually gather resources and build things in game. Whether its p2w or not is a semantic issue the real issue is the damage to the economy in game.
So true.
As a current eve player, I'm not upset about the cash shop. Well I am, but not because it's a cash shop. Personally, I think all the prices are redic just for fake clothes. So I'm not touching the cash shop until there is at least cheaper prices.
What I am upset about are a few things. I'm upset about the backtracking by eve. By what they said in the past, and now. I am upset at what could come because of the cash shop from what they've said.
I remember reading that they were going to put in a fancy scorpion into the cash shop. What would be fine is if it required a scorpion already. Like in the LP store. You can buy a Navy ship, but it requires the ship already, lp, and sometimes some extra ISK as well. This is fine, producers are still producing. If it turns out someone can just buy a fancier scorpion with nothing but cash, you're putting people out of jobs. So to speak.
If the cash shop is just vanity items, I couldn't give two flying fucks. Currently, I give one flying fuck, because I'm worried about the future. I'm not doing anything drastic like huge threads, unsubbing, crap like that. Nah. I'm just going to play business as usual until CCP announces something to give the other flying fuck about. I'm just a little more aware of what's going on in the patches now. Instead of just skimming larger patch notes for anything to catch my eye, I'll actually read more of them now.
The second CCP cuts out the production middle man though, I'm out. That's a huge game changer for some people who play, and I won't give any more money to a company willing to do something like that in their game. Who knows, something I like to do in Eve could be next if they do something like that.
Maybe that is the real issue for you, but for me, any game which allows players to buy IG items and characters for RL money and then use that in competetive PvP is a real issue.
And as others have pointed out, this has been going on ever since PLEX could be bought by real money, converted it IG currency, and characters could be sold for IG currency.
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