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Absolutely Disgusting

This is why I have no faith in the gaming industry anymore, and why I started my own studio about a year ago.

http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win

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Comments

  • NeverdyneNeverdyne Member Posts: 167

    If you don't have any faith in the gaming inudstry, why start a gaming studio?

  • King_KumquatKing_Kumquat Member Posts: 492

    I'm no fan of EA, but their play 4 free series of games has all of this information pretty up front.

    It's easy to avoid if players wish to, or for them to partake if they wish to.


    Will develop an original MMORPG title for money.
  • BaconJA89BaconJA89 Member Posts: 118

    Because I love games, and it seems that no one except for Arena Net and Bethesda are making games that I love.

  • Chaotic16Chaotic16 Member Posts: 116

    Originally posted by BaconJA89

    Because I love games, and it seems that no one except for Arena Net and Bethesda are making games that I love.

    Lol, well said. This is how I've felt for years now. If your industry is failing you (and they are, horribly), start building your own masterpiece. I may be interested in doing the same one day.

    image

  • CognitoCognito Member Posts: 198

    Originally posted by BaconJA89

    This is why I have no faith in the gaming industry anymore, and why I started my own studio about a year ago.

    http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win

    Let me know what your company is called and what you are working on, I may be interested in doing some work if it's something that could turn out great.

    Put through the personal paces of my crippled fingers.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484

    It's instructive. And a clear indicator of why gaming is going to hell. As a famous possum once said "We have met the enemy and he is us."

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • Chaotic16Chaotic16 Member Posts: 116

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    It's instructive. And a clear indicator of why gaming is going to hell.

    True enough, but I think we've still got some fight in us yet. All the great games we love today started out as a small idea. One thing's for damn sure: We can't rely on any major companies to make any quality games anymore. 

    image

  • TheMinnTheMinn Member Posts: 397

    Originally posted by BaconJA89

    Because I love games, and it seems that no one except for Arena Net and Bethesda are making games that I love.

    2 gaming studios, out of how many, are the only 'good' ones? really? have you ever heard of 'free will' ? ya....you can choose what you want to buy. if you dont like something dont play it? and most f2p/cash shop (pay to win) games are not even that good. The gaming world is going to hell? The only games that do have a 'pay 2 win' model are just the online/mmo games, really. so umm...ya. And all the pay-to-win games are f2p games. {mod edit}

  • Chaotic16Chaotic16 Member Posts: 116

    Originally posted by TheMinn

    Originally posted by BaconJA89

    Because I love games, and it seems that no one except for Arena Net and Bethesda are making games that I love.

    2 gaming studios, out of how many, are the only 'good' ones? really? have you ever heard of 'free will' ? ya....you can choose what you want to buy. if you dont like something dont play it? and most f2p/cash shop (pay to win) games are not even that good. The gaming world is going to hell? The only games that do have a 'pay 2 win' model are just the online/mmo games, really. so umm...ya. And all the pay-to-win games are f2p games. if you're going to cry that a free game has a cash shop well then..get a job and buy a game.

    It's not as simple as "not playing it". Even if I choose not to buy or play a game, thousands, if not millions of others will buy into it, meaning that the company who made the said horrible game is now being supported in such a way where they are allowed to make more terrible games. Speaking out on the forum is a way to both warn people and stop this mediocrity that is plaguing our industry.

    image

  • cyress8cyress8 Member Posts: 832


    Originally posted by TheMinn

    Originally posted by BaconJA89
    Because I love games, and it seems that no one except for Arena Net and Bethesda are making games that I love.
    2 gaming studios, out of how many, are the only 'good' ones? really? have you ever heard of 'free will' ? ya....you can choose what you want to buy. if you dont like something dont play it? and most f2p/cash shop (pay to win) games are not even that good. The gaming world is going to hell? The only games that do have a 'pay 2 win' model are just the online/mmo games, really. so umm...ya. And all the pay-to-win games are f2p games. if you're going to cry that a free game has a cash shop well then..get a job and buy a game.


    XD, you did not notice that he is trying to start his own gaming company? So what the hell are you trying to berate him for? His free will is pushing him towards creating actual games! Hilarious response, guy! "get a job" <--- lol

    BOOYAKA!

  • TheMinnTheMinn Member Posts: 397

    Originally posted by Chaotic16

    Originally posted by TheMinn


    Originally posted by BaconJA89

    Because I love games, and it seems that no one except for Arena Net and Bethesda are making games that I love.

    2 gaming studios, out of how many, are the only 'good' ones? really? have you ever heard of 'free will' ? ya....you can choose what you want to buy. if you dont like something dont play it? and most f2p/cash shop (pay to win) games are not even that good. The gaming world is going to hell? The only games that do have a 'pay 2 win' model are just the online/mmo games, really. so umm...ya. And all the pay-to-win games are f2p games. {mod edit}

    It's not as simple as "not playing it". Even if I choose not to buy or play a game, thousands, if not millions of others will buy into it, meaning that the company who made the said horrible game is now being supported in such a way where they are allowed to make more terrible games. Speaking out on the forum is a way to both warn people and stop this mediocrity that is plaguing our industry.

    But again, free will. Look, I do get what the OP was trying to say but when it comes to this time of 'ordeal' in life it just seems senseless to argue about it. You don't like it, don't play it or stop. Shit happens. If people are willing to pay $15 for a map pack (and they do) good for them, you don't have to. Some developers are 'pieces of crap' but again...don't but their products, if others good thats on them and they might like it. In my opinion, and I am not saying i am right at all, I think people that play these sort of games demand a free triple A title and once something like this happens they bitch when they might not even know the business model and that the game could really be hurting which is why changes are made (FE = f2p, AoC f2p, SWG no more, etc.) I've played BF Heroes and it is fun but...Counter-strike entertaines me more. Team Fortress 2, which I love, is F2P which I think will bring in a lot of 'complainers' but hey...if it does happen I have the choice to leave and I won't hate Valve for doing it and introducing more 'pay to win' products...its their business, not mine. here i am complaing about someone who is complaining so i know i am being hypocritical but i admit and accept that. people just hate so much in the world that they should find other routes to happiness.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Originally posted by King_Kumquat

    I'm no fan of EA, but their play 4 free series of games has all of this information pretty up front.

    It's easy to avoid if players wish to, or for them to partake if they wish to.

    I am not sure about Heroes as I've never played, I can say that in BF2 P4F I average a 10-1 kill ratio without one purchase in the store, aside from what I earn from scoring tokens. Can't call that one P2W. Then again I've played BF games since 1942, I guess maybe experience is greater than P2W.  I don't think there is a BF game or expansion I haven't bought to be honest. Well I haven't palyed the BC versions.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • romanator0romanator0 Member Posts: 2,382

    Originally posted by TheMinn

    Originally posted by Chaotic16


    Originally posted by TheMinn


    Originally posted by BaconJA89

    Because I love games, and it seems that no one except for Arena Net and Bethesda are making games that I love.

    2 gaming studios, out of how many, are the only 'good' ones? really? have you ever heard of 'free will' ? ya....you can choose what you want to buy. if you dont like something dont play it? and most f2p/cash shop (pay to win) games are not even that good. The gaming world is going to hell? The only games that do have a 'pay 2 win' model are just the online/mmo games, really. so umm...ya. And all the pay-to-win games are f2p games. if you're going to cry that a free game has a cash shop well then..get a job and buy a game.

    It's not as simple as "not playing it". Even if I choose not to buy or play a game, thousands, if not millions of others will buy into it, meaning that the company who made the said horrible game is now being supported in such a way where they are allowed to make more terrible games. Speaking out on the forum is a way to both warn people and stop this mediocrity that is plaguing our industry.

    But again, free will. Look, I do get what the OP was trying to say but when it comes to this time of 'ordeal' in life it just seems senseless to argue about it. You don't like it, don't play it or stop. Shit happens. If people are willing to pay $15 for a map pack (and they do) good for them, you don't have to. Some developers are 'pieces of crap' but again...don't but their products, if others good thats on them and they might like it. In my opinion, and I am not saying i am right at all, I think people that play these sort of games demand a free triple A title and once something like this happens they bitch when they might not even know the business model and that the game could really be hurting which is why changes are made (FE = f2p, AoC f2p, SWG no more, etc.) I've played BF Heroes and it is fun but...Counter-strike entertaines me more. Team Fortress 2, which I love, is not F2P which I think will bring in a lot of 'complainers' but hey...if it does happen I have the choice to leave and I won't hate Valve for doing it and introducing more 'pay to win' products...its their business, not mine. here i am complaing about someone who is complaining so i know i am being hypocritical but i admit and accept that. people just hate so much in the world that they should find other routes to happiness.

    TF2 is actually F2P now if you didn't know.

    image

  • TheMinnTheMinn Member Posts: 397

    Originally posted by cyress8

     




    Originally posted by TheMinn





    Originally posted by BaconJA89

    Because I love games, and it seems that no one except for Arena Net and Bethesda are making games that I love.






    2 gaming studios, out of how many, are the only 'good' ones? really? have you ever heard of 'free will' ? ya....you can choose what you want to buy. if you dont like something dont play it? and most f2p/cash shop (pay to win) games are not even that good. The gaming world is going to hell? The only games that do have a 'pay 2 win' model are just the online/mmo games, really. so umm...ya. And all the pay-to-win games are f2p games. if you're going to cry that a free game has a cash shop well then..get a job and buy a game.





    XD, you did not notice that he is trying to start his own gaming company? So what the hell are you trying to berate him for? His free will is pushing him towards creating actual games! Hilarious response, guy! "get a job" <--- lol

     

    you do realize the 'get a job' reference was not pointed at him/her ? understand context and irony, please.

  • TheMinnTheMinn Member Posts: 397

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Originally posted by TheMinn


    Originally posted by Chaotic16


    Originally posted by TheMinn


    Originally posted by BaconJA89

    Because I love games, and it seems that no one except for Arena Net and Bethesda are making games that I love.

    2 gaming studios, out of how many, are the only 'good' ones? really? have you ever heard of 'free will' ? ya....you can choose what you want to buy. if you dont like something dont play it? and most f2p/cash shop (pay to win) games are not even that good. The gaming world is going to hell? The only games that do have a 'pay 2 win' model are just the online/mmo games, really. so umm...ya. And all the pay-to-win games are f2p games. if you're going to cry that a free game has a cash shop well then..get a job and buy a game.

    It's not as simple as "not playing it". Even if I choose not to buy or play a game, thousands, if not millions of others will buy into it, meaning that the company who made the said horrible game is now being supported in such a way where they are allowed to make more terrible games. Speaking out on the forum is a way to both warn people and stop this mediocrity that is plaguing our industry.

    But again, free will. Look, I do get what the OP was trying to say but when it comes to this time of 'ordeal' in life it just seems senseless to argue about it. You don't like it, don't play it or stop. Shit happens. If people are willing to pay $15 for a map pack (and they do) good for them, you don't have to. Some developers are 'pieces of crap' but again...don't but their products, if others good thats on them and they might like it. In my opinion, and I am not saying i am right at all, I think people that play these sort of games demand a free triple A title and once something like this happens they bitch when they might not even know the business model and that the game could really be hurting which is why changes are made (FE = f2p, AoC f2p, SWG no more, etc.) I've played BF Heroes and it is fun but...Counter-strike entertaines me more. Team Fortress 2, which I love, is not F2P which I think will bring in a lot of 'complainers' but hey...if it does happen I have the choice to leave and I won't hate Valve for doing it and introducing more 'pay to win' products...its their business, not mine. here i am complaing about someone who is complaining so i know i am being hypocritical but i admit and accept that. people just hate so much in the world that they should find other routes to happiness.

    TF2 is actually F2P now if you didn't know.

    that was actually a typo, didn't mean to type that word. going to edit it. 

  • ravtecravtec Member Posts: 214

    That was quite interesting, I realy enjoyd the part where they did a research on theyr forum users.

  • HaegemonHaegemon Member UncommonPosts: 267

    How is any of that article disgusting. In fact, it makes complete business sense.

     

    They released a product, they tweaked a product, they monotized a product, they profit from the product.

    Best parts of the video were "Revenues doubled overnight" and the 70/28/2 ratio, with 70% of all accounts having never even read the forums, 28% having read with some frequency and never posted, and the 2% who actually read and post.

    The silent majority is busy playing all of these games, enjoying the new methods of payment and accessibilty to games, and they really don't care about whats said on internet forums.

    And when those same angry forum posters will spend 10x the remaining user base. You've got to LOVE presentations based on fact-based analysis of a situation.

     

    Really makes me wonder for CCP. I can't wait till they sell a pre-built Titan w/flight-skill package for like 1k IRL. Then I can't wait for that to get blown up, it's pilot podded, and the poor sap drop another 100 worth of PLEX for ISK to rebuild his gear.

    F2P markets happen. People will pay to win. If people wouldn't pay to win, people wouldn't hack or cheat or exploit or do any other malicious things in games. People have always wanted and been willing to pay to win.

    In the old days, if you could multibox, you could do more, better faster, but that took money, and people would pay to win. My old roommate went from 3-boxing E&B to 4 boxing EVE within 24hrs of E&B:Sunset was announced.

    If you payed the money to rent a Vent or TS server, you had the advantage of co-ordination, bypassing many game-systems to restrict chat in places. People will pay to win.

     

    "Stop looking at what virtual goods games are like in an ideal world, and start looking at what our consumers want a virtual goods game to be"

    Lets Push Things Forward

    I knew I would live to design games at age 7, issue 5 of Nintendo Power.

    Support games with subs when you believe in their potential, even in spite of their flaws.

  • King_KumquatKing_Kumquat Member Posts: 492

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by King_Kumquat

    I'm no fan of EA, but their play 4 free series of games has all of this information pretty up front.

    It's easy to avoid if players wish to, or for them to partake if they wish to.

    I am not sure about Heroes as I've never played, I can say that in BF2 P4F I average a 10-1 kill ratio without one purchase in the store, aside from what I earn from scoring tokens. Can't call that one P2W. Then again I've played BF games since 1942, I guess maybe experience is greater than P2W.  I don't think there is a BF game or expansion I haven't bought to be honest. Well I haven't palyed the BC versions.

    Well I agree with you.

    But people who are bad at games are usually intimidated when others can buy items that are (in theory) better than the free ones.

    Both Battlefield games reward frequent players with Battle Points that can be used to even the odds.

    But in both games if you're a tactical player with a good team, all the money in the world can't buy a win. 

    So we can add what you said, to what I said and say that the OP is spreading a bit of hyperbole.


    Will develop an original MMORPG title for money.
  • LidaneLidane Member CommonPosts: 2,300

    Originally posted by Haegemon

    How is any of that article disgusting. In fact, it makes complete business sense.

    Ah, but that's the problem. Game developers aren't allowed to make money or make business decisions. Didn't you know?

    There's no such thing as a game development studio being a business. They're supposed to make games for people to play and enjoy without any thought to their own survival or profits. What kind of greedy bastards would care about finding a payment structure that is popular with their customers and profitable so they can pay their employees and keep the lights on?

    image

  • Chaotic16Chaotic16 Member Posts: 116

    Originally posted by Haegemon

    How is any of that article disgusting. In fact, it makes complete business sense.

     

    They released a product, they tweaked a product, they monotized a product, they profit from the product.

    When you start looking at games from a business perspective, you are no longer making games. You're making cheap forms of entertainment that are bland and disgusting. Part of the reason why our industry is the way it is today is because we have tight-ass CEOs in monkey suits who have never played a game in their life who are making all the decisions instead of letting devoted, passionate developers work their magic and change the future of gaming for the better. 

    image

  • LidaneLidane Member CommonPosts: 2,300

    Originally posted by Chaotic16

    Originally posted by Haegemon

    How is any of that article disgusting. In fact, it makes complete business sense.

     

    They released a product, they tweaked a product, they monotized a product, they profit from the product.

    When you start looking at games from a business perspective, you are no longer making games. You're making cheap forms of entertainment that are bland and disgusting. Part of the reason why our industry is the way it is today is because we have tight-ass CEOs in monkey suits who have never played a game in their life who are making all the decisions instead of letting devoted, passionate developers work their magic and change the future of gaming for the better. 

    Bullshit.

    If you want a game studio to survive to make a game, much less to become a success, you NEED to look at games from a business perspective. You need to attract investors to give you money to get your studio off the ground, and you have to be able to answer to those investors so they stay confident in your vision and in you. You need to have a business plan to attract talent to work for you, because people need to get paid so they can live. Bills need to get paid so that you have a place to create your games.

    Working in gaming isn't just about making the games. It's also about the reality of business. You have to balance both. As much fun as it would be to go to work and make games for a living, there is the fundamental fact that every game studio is still a business at heart.

  • ichimarunicoichimarunico Member Posts: 210

    Originally posted by Lidane

    Originally posted by Haegemon

    How is any of that article disgusting. In fact, it makes complete business sense.

    Ah, but that's the problem. Game developers aren't allowed to make money or make business decisions. Didn't you know?

    There's no such thing as a game development studio being a business. They're supposed to make games for people to play and enjoy without any thought to their own survival or profits. What kind of greedy bastards would care about finding a payment structure that is popular with their customers and profitable so they can pay their employees and keep the lights on?

    image

    Yeah I mean who cares about the ethics of business, sportsmanship, or any of that hippie mumbo jumbo. People play games to pay developers, damn it, not to have fun in a competitve setting.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,305

    Originally posted by Lidane



    Working in gaming isn't just about making the games. It's also about the reality of business. You have to balance both. As much fun as it would be to go to work and make games for a living, there is the fundamental fact that every game studio is still a business at heart.

    Pretty much this.

    I'm sorry but there are a good amount of people on this site who just don't seem to be plugged into "how life works".

    I'm pretty sure many of you have jobs of one sort or another. You like your salary and benefits correct? Well, your company needs to make money.

    Same with game developers.

    You can't get great new games without investing money and working out the business end. I would agree that a company can go too far and "yes" it seems sinister to starting taking into account "KPI's" (which my company does all the time.) However, if a company is going to remain competitive they need to think about the best ways to bring in cash.

    Same with music, same with movies. Sure, i'd love to go through life and not pay for a single thing. But that's not realistic. Heck, most of the time when I see players on this site start extolling the f2p model, I highly suspect what they really want is not to spend one dime and still get entertainment.

    Now, for the record, I don't believe in "paying for win". At all. However, if there are people who want to spend their money that way then it's their money.




  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,305

    oh, and I wonder if people caught (in the talk) that though their forums were aflame with people threatening to leave they tripled the number of spenders with only a slight decrease in how many spend. Less than 5% were spending.

    Forums were indicating unhappy users but that wasn't the reality.

    This is very telling as sooooo many people on forums make the mistake that forums measure the player base. Yet they discovered that 78% of their players didn't go to the forums and only 2% actually posted.




  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    then it's their money.

    *Scream* And game developers need it tooo!!!!!! image

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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