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Internal Bulletin leaked

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  • AusareAusare Member Posts: 850

    What item currently in the game can you not buy with cash.  My corp bought a Jump Freighter with cash.

  • qazymanqazyman Member Posts: 1,785

    Originally posted by Orphes

    Originally posted by qazyman


    Originally posted by Orphes


    Originally posted by hfztt

    The CSM fucked up when they stopped CCP from just plain out sell skill points. If CCP could sell skill points for $ they really would not need any other revnue stream.

    Just saying.

    But oooooh, noooo. Buying skill point would be bad be course that would mean that the (imho equally unfair) advantage old chars have in the game over new ones, would be in jeopardy.

    Idiots. CSM 5 that is...

     

    Are you reallly that interested in the cashshop that you compare this to the fact that prices in the cashshop is expensive.

    I can not understand the tears from people that can not afford a monocle and they are not the same as those tears that would be shed if we had skillpoints in the cashshop.

     

    Oh no! CCP have to sell expensive monocles in the cashshop because they could not sell cheap skillpiints.  Oh no! CCP blatently says the need to make a profit fron their games.image At least they could humble about it, they hurt my feelings. image


    Oh well, what the hell......CSM 5 is not the one without a clue.


     


    The problem with selling things that matter, like skill points, is that it gives a major advantage to the older vets that know how to play. For Example, need a few super cap pilots and you have people that know how to fly them in your alliance.....there you go!


     


    Others, like you, get practically no benefit.


     


    In fact, if players could really buy their way in, most of the ones without any experience would just lose the money, then realize how hard EVE really is, and quit. I would hurt the number of people that make it out of high sec. This would be really bad for the game.


     


    It's not a question of what people want, it just wouldn't work in this game. However, it would give bitter old vets the ability to create clones all over eve.

    "Oh well, what the hell......CSM 5 is not the one without a clue."

    "Others, like you, get practically no benefit."?

    Elighten me where I said that Where did I say that selling SP was anything good?

    Did you just say that I was without a clue because I said that the tears over this crap items in the cash-shop would be nothing compared to the ones if you could buy skillpoints?

    C'mon read the craptext I quoted first, that is why the quote is there.

    Or could I just simply assume that as you said I was clueless you a pro buy skillpoints?


    I was agreeing with you that selling SP and vanity items are completely different, and I was referring to the same poster as you. I am sorry I wasn’t clearer.  image

  • PrecusorPrecusor Member UncommonPosts: 3,589

    I think CCP needs to get off their freaking high horse and realize they aint that freaking amazing.

     

     

     

    Their EGOS is their own downfall.

  • PrecusorPrecusor Member UncommonPosts: 3,589

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Yeah, reading a document like that is sort of a kick in the teeth, but seems logical in the face of the future.  Biggest concern is the several references to a willingness to dabble in selling items of power....... that road leads to madness...

    Thats all? CCP wasting development time and money on a useless walk in station just so they can make a few bucks from selling those ridiculous monocles was a kick in the balls for me.

     

    Edit: making Dust a console only was another kick in the balls..

  • batolemaeusbatolemaeus Member CommonPosts: 2,061


    Originally posted by pmaura
     thats lala land, companies from the dawn of time have existed to make money so that the owner can make money and fee his family and provide a future for all off spring, they did not go will this is a damn good product but its to expensive for anyone to buy but I am going to keep making it go broke and starve becuase its for the betterment of mankind I die brining people this product and all my employees are going to agree with philosphy when I no longer pay them.
     

    Companies exist to provide a benefit for their employees. That is, or was, the idea behind forming a company in the first place.

    In the case of CCP and many other companies nowadays however, the company only exists to serve an investor, who is not interested in the stability of the company but high profits from his investment in the shortest time possible. Longevity means low ROI.

    This means that CCP's future will likely be what happened to many, many companies driven into the ground for the financial benefit of their investors when they sold themselves.

    Incidentally, CCP does not own itself, so to speak. They are basically between two very hard surfaces right now and are being forced to monetize no matter what.


    And that, to me, is the really sad thing here. From the looks of it, an MMO with a lot of people I have learned to love, is being squeezed out to pay for some banksters debts. It's a disgrace.


    Originally posted by qazyman

    I'm pretty sure I missed the memo where a company was supposed to care about me before I would play their game.

    Is that so hard to grasp? If you're offering a service, you better make sure people like your service. You do that by being polite and making them feel that you're providing a good service to them.
    Acquisition of a new customer is much, much more expensive compared to keeping one. It makes economical sense to care for your customers and keep retention as high as you can with a moderate effort.

  • GlacianNexGlacianNex Member UncommonPosts: 649

    From EVE Online forums:

    Posted by CCP Pann:

    "The newsletter was not fake. I guess this is how it feels when someone reads your diary, something you hadn't intended anyone else to see. Not to deflect the heat but to explain why what I'm about to say, I wasn't involved with writing it. The only reason I mention that is because I am not going to presume to know the minds of the people who did have comments in there. I am not going to throw people I love under the bus or to the lions or whatever. I can't/won't answer questions about what they said or why they said it. 



    Our newsletters are written as a means to bring about discussion (that sometimes can even become heated debate) among our coworkers. That's really all I can say about it. I am not a game designer. I'm a mouthpiece. I'll admit it. By the time I get involved, the decisions have been made. Not making excuses for myself, just explaining."

    Link:

    http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1536065&page=5

    Page 5, Post 126.

  • zimmy910zimmy910 Member UncommonPosts: 190

    They have thrown a PR manager of some sort in there now to do a little damage control. I don't think it's working !

  • batolemaeusbatolemaeus Member CommonPosts: 2,061


    Originally posted by zimmy910
    They have thrown a PR manager of some sort in there now to do a little damage control. I don't think it's working !

    In fact, the only officials interacting with the community are the ones who are the least to blame for CCP's plans.
    This is even more cowardly than just trying to ignore the shitstorm. The people responsible for intentionally misleading and lying to their players are hiding behind community people.

  • MaelkorMaelkor Member UncommonPosts: 459

    Originally posted by batolemaeus

     




    Originally posted by pmaura

     thats lala land, companies from the dawn of time have existed to make money so that the owner can make money and fee his family and provide a future for all off spring, they did not go will this is a damn good product but its to expensive for anyone to buy but I am going to keep making it go broke and starve becuase its for the betterment of mankind I die brining people this product and all my employees are going to agree with philosphy when I no longer pay them.

     



     

    Companies exist to provide a benefit for their employees. That is, or was, the idea behind forming a company in the first place.

    In the case of CCP and many other companies nowadays however, the company only exists to serve an investor, who is not interested in the stability of the company but high profits from his investment in the shortest time possible. Longevity means low ROI.

    This means that CCP's future will likely be what happened to many, many companies driven into the ground for the financial benefit of their investors when they sold themselves.

    Incidentally, CCP does not own itself, so to speak. They are basically between two very hard surfaces right now and are being forced to monetize no matter what.



    And that, to me, is the really sad thing here. From the looks of it, an MMO with a lot of people I have learned to love, is being squeezed out to pay for some banksters debts. It's a disgrace.

     




    Originally posted by qazyman



    I'm pretty sure I missed the memo where a company was supposed to care about me before I would play their game.




     

    Is that so hard to grasp? If you're offering a service, you better make sure people like your service. You do that by being polite and making them feel that you're providing a good service to them.

    Acquisition of a new customer is much, much more expensive compared to keeping one. It makes economical sense to care for your customers and keep retention as high as you can with a moderate effort.

     Companies have never existed to provide benefits to employees. Any benefits an employee attains while working for a company is merely a side bonus and probably something thrown in to keep that employee happy and producing. Companies have always existed in order for the owners/investors to make money. That is the sole purpose of any company.

    Now a good company will ensure that its employess are properly compensated thus ensuring a happy workforce which ensures a productive workforce which in the end makes for a better more profitable company thus ensuring that once again the bottom line of the owner/investor getting the best return on thier investment.

  • KazuhiroKazuhiro Member UncommonPosts: 595

    The number of people unsubscribing is increasing at an alarming rate, and many more soon to come, my guess is they only sent the one poor Community manager in to try and hold onto the remaining people ready to leave. Also I'm sure the sheer number of unsubs in a 24-48 hours got even their investors and suits to pay attention for once.

    A lot of people over the last 8 years of eve have said "eve is dying" at every single bug/goofup/scandal. But this one, may "actually" do it. I've never seen so many pissed of players united in one goal in any game, ever. There are only the few morons on the forums that don't have a brain cells connecting to see the problem. And even most of them are now up in arms since the document was found to be real.

    I don't have the exact numbers or anything, but I'd say nearly 1/4 of the entire playerbase is telling them to shape up, or they will leave. (It may be more, may be less, but it's a HELL of a lot of players.)

    To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.

  • qazymanqazyman Member Posts: 1,785

    Originally posted by batolemaeus

     







    Originally posted by qazyman



    I'm pretty sure I missed the memo where a company was supposed to care about me before I would play their game.




     

    Is that so hard to grasp? If you're offering a service, you better make sure people like your service. You do that by being polite and making them feel that you're providing a good service to them.

    Acquisition of a new customer is much, much more expensive compared to keeping one. It makes economical sense to care for your customers and keep retention as high as you can with a moderate effort.


    I wasn't trying to take a side in the “how a company should act discussion". I was simply pointing out that when I started playing, I don’t think I ever once considered how CCP thought about me.


     


    CCP represented and Idea (on several levels), and I wanted to be a part of that.


     


    I can’t think of a single instance where I played a game because I thought the company cared about me, or my enjoyment of the game was based on how a company viewed me.
  • DarkPonyDarkPony Member Posts: 5,566

    It shows the people with the wrong ideas are at the helm.

    They have been taken on a ride by some very bad arguments in their cash shop philosophy, choosing to cater for "the golfer that likes to finish 18 holes on Saturdays" and the assesment that somehow some people LIKE to pay a lot of money for certain products as a means of acquiring identity. (Discounting the facts that a game is not real life and each single pixel jacket is not made of leather and hours of workmanship and that SOME people aren't MOST people).

    They are violating, or increasingly GOING to violate, the unwritten rule that in a proper sandbox, chances and opportunities should be similar for everyone, no matter how wealthy or poor you are in real life once you paid your sub fee. People's different talents, intelligence and social skills should make the real difference in game. Not your rl wallet.

    Of course that unwritten rule was already thrown out with the bathwater when Plex was introduced but there was a very distinctive benefit to that too: offering an alternative way to pay for your sub(s), (next to fighting the RMT business). And all items and ships (appart from tournament prizes) still originated from within the game and from player effort rather than from a cash shop. That will be very different in the future it seems.

    The only redeeming aspect is that cash shop items can be sold in game for isk to offer a 'realistic', ingame alternative way of acquiring them.

    TL;DR: I agree with John Turbefield's opinion. The only voice of reason in that document.

    Make him CEO please.

    Really disappointed in CCP. I always supported them throughout forum backlashes in the past years and told people to be patient and understanding but now my trust and confidence are violated V_V

  • BizkitNLBizkitNL Member RarePosts: 2,546

    Originally posted by Kazuhiro

    The number of people unsubscribing is increasing at an alarming rate, and many more soon to come, my guess is they only sent the one poor Community manager in to try and hold onto the remaining people ready to leave. Also I'm sure the sheer number of unsubs in a 24-48 hours got even their investors and suits to pay attention for once.

    A lot of people over the last 8 years of eve have said "eve is dying" at every single bug/goofup/scandal. But this one, may "actually" do it. I've never seen so many pissed of players united in one goal in any game, ever. There are only the few morons on the forums that don't have a brain cells connecting to see the problem. And even most of them are now up in arms since the document was found to be real.

    I don't have the exact numbers or anything, but I'd say nearly 1/4 of the entire playerbase is telling them to shape up, or they will leave. (It may be more, may be less, but it's a HELL of a lot of players.)

    Don't overreact. This kind of thing happens after every freaking expansion. And claiming that a quarter of the playerbase is complaining....just don't. You have no idea and no clue about these kind of things (None of us do).

    The forums light up with complainers, but the people content play the game.

    10
  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,400

    Yes, customers are running away screaming. Thats why more people have been online the last few days than for a long time.

    KTHXBYE!

  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,400

    Originally posted by DarkPony

    Really disappointed in CCP. I always supported them throughout forum backlashes in the past years and told people to be patient and understanding but now my trust and confidence is violated V_V

    Your trust has been violated be course you read a document that you where never meant to read (and you only got to read be course someone broke CCP's trust mind you), a document meant for internal debate in CCP?

    [Mod Edit]

  • DarkPonyDarkPony Member Posts: 5,566

    Originally posted by hfztt

    Originally posted by DarkPony

    Really disappointed in CCP. I always supported them throughout forum backlashes in the past years and told people to be patient and understanding but now my trust and confidence is violated V_V

    Your trust has been violated be course you read a document that you where never meant to read (and you only got to read be course someone broke CCP's trust mind you), a document meant for internal debate in CCP?

    [Mod Edit]

     

     

    It's "because".

    It is real (as far as we can believe the CSM members who have seen it at CCP HQ) and it shows a glimpse on what their strategy is with EVE and its cash shop. The source and whether we were intended to read it or not is totally beside the point.

  • TyphadoTyphado Member Posts: 177

    Originally posted by DarkPony

    Originally posted by hfztt

    Originally posted by DarkPony

    Really disappointed in CCP. I always supported them throughout forum backlashes in the past years and told people to be patient and understanding but now my trust and confidence is violated V_V

    Your trust has been violated be course you read a document that you where never meant to read (and you only got to read be course someone broke CCP's trust mind you), a document meant for internal debate in CCP?

    [Mod Edit]

     

    It's "because".

    It is real (as far as we can believe the CSM members who have seen it at CCP HQ) and it shows a glimpse on what their strategy is with EVE and its cash shop. The source and whether we were intended to read it or not is totally beside the point.

    It is real, CCP themselves have confirmed it. Check the other thread on these forums "CCP Pann aks for concerns" or check the eve thread here.

    Into the breach meatbags

  • OrphesOrphes Member UncommonPosts: 3,039

    Originally posted by qazyman

    Originally posted by Orphes


    Originally posted by qazyman


    Originally posted by Orphes


    Originally posted by hfztt

    The CSM fucked up when they stopped CCP from just plain out sell skill points. If CCP could sell skill points for $ they really would not need any other revnue stream.

    Just saying.

    But oooooh, noooo. Buying skill point would be bad be course that would mean that the (imho equally unfair) advantage old chars have in the game over new ones, would be in jeopardy.

    Idiots. CSM 5 that is...

     

    Are you reallly that interested in the cashshop that you compare this to the fact that prices in the cashshop is expensive.

    I can not understand the tears from people that can not afford a monocle and they are not the same as those tears that would be shed if we had skillpoints in the cashshop.

     

    Oh no! CCP have to sell expensive monocles in the cashshop because they could not sell cheap skillpiints.  Oh no! CCP blatently says the need to make a profit fron their games.image At least they could humble about it, they hurt my feelings. image


    Oh well, what the hell......CSM 5 is not the one without a clue.


     


    The problem with selling things that matter, like skill points, is that it gives a major advantage to the older vets that know how to play. For Example, need a few super cap pilots and you have people that know how to fly them in your alliance.....there you go!


     


    Others, like you, get practically no benefit.


     


    In fact, if players could really buy their way in, most of the ones without any experience would just lose the money, then realize how hard EVE really is, and quit. I would hurt the number of people that make it out of high sec. This would be really bad for the game.


     


    It's not a question of what people want, it just wouldn't work in this game. However, it would give bitter old vets the ability to create clones all over eve.

    "Oh well, what the hell......CSM 5 is not the one without a clue."

    "Others, like you, get practically no benefit."?

    Elighten me where I said that Where did I say that selling SP was anything good?

    Did you just say that I was without a clue because I said that the tears over this crap items in the cash-shop would be nothing compared to the ones if you could buy skillpoints?

    C'mon read the craptext I quoted first, that is why the quote is there.

    Or could I just simply assume that as you said I was clueless you a pro buy skillpoints?


    I was agreeing with you that selling SP and vanity items are completely different, and I was referring to the same poster as you. I am sorry I wasn’t clearer.  image

    Oh, sorry :blush:

    I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
    "You have the right not to be killed"

  • DarkPonyDarkPony Member Posts: 5,566

    Originally posted by Typhado

    Originally posted by DarkPony


    Originally posted by hfztt


    Originally posted by DarkPony



    Really disappointed in CCP. I always supported them throughout forum backlashes in the past years and told people to be patient and understanding but now my trust and confidence is violated V_V

    Your trust has been violated be course you read a document that you where never meant to read (and you only got to read be course someone broke CCP's trust mind you), a document meant for internal debate in CCP?

    WTF are you smoking?

    It's "because".

    It is real (as far as we can believe the CSM members who have seen it at CCP HQ) and it shows a glimpse on what their strategy is with EVE and its cash shop. The source and whether we were intended to read it or not is totally beside the point.

    It is real, CCP themselves have confirmed it. Check the other thread on these forums "CCP Pann aks for concerns" or check the eve thread here.

    Thanks for the heads-up. I am curious to see what their announcement will be. I hope they'll do a 180 on certain aspects.

  • OrphesOrphes Member UncommonPosts: 3,039

    Originally posted by DarkPony

    Originally posted by hfztt


    Originally posted by DarkPony



    Really disappointed in CCP. I always supported them throughout forum backlashes in the past years and told people to be patient and understanding but now my trust and confidence is violated V_V

    Your trust has been violated be course you read a document that you where never meant to read (and you only got to read be course someone broke CCP's trust mind you), a document meant for internal debate in CCP?

    WTF are you smoking?

    It's "because".

    It is real (as far as we can believe the CSM members who have seen it at CCP HQ) and it shows a glimpse on what their strategy is with EVE and its cash shop. The source and whether we were intended to read it or not is totally beside the point.

    Still it is an internal document. Ment for discussion and information.

    "Now does this mean that we should go for unbridled evil consumerism trying to squeeze every penny from our customers? Of course not"

    "A blanced approach should acknowledge consumerism as a powerful tool (amongst others) that we need to get familiar with respect to create more enjoyable experiences and stronger identities for our players"

    Sorry to say but this does not show anything strange. To have a discussion you have to dare to touch the quistions involved in it. And you also have to look from both side of things. Unless you only want, or even only dare to, to preach to your own congregation.

    It's hard to make a good discussion without discussing and looking from the other perspective. As this was ment to be internal ofcourse there is things stated that will not go well if others not involved in the discussion will hear.

    How do you suggest that CCP would write their internal documents, that they should have in mind that some people might be butthurt if they would read it, or make it easier to have a discussion by actually touching the subject in question?

     

    (At times even if I have been involved and got ideas approved (in my not so important work) I find it sad that we have not fully discussed it to see if it could have been improved, others times it have been me trying to make it clear why that other side depending on the viewangle is not that bad. In the end to get things from boths sides that works well to make a better 'solution' of our problem. Alot of the times we can't do that simply because people gets offended, instead of justplainly see the discussion at hand.)

    I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
    "You have the right not to be killed"

  • pihlssitepihlssite Member CommonPosts: 213

    Teala Im very sorry to bring the news it wasnt a fake :(

  • byz4ntinianbyz4ntinian Member Posts: 21

    Originally posted by Ausare

    What item currently in the game can you not buy with cash.  My corp bought a Jump Freighter with cash.

     Which brings a key difference into why this is such a terrible occurence. With Cash -> PLEX -> ISK, someone has to make the ISK, to buy the PLEX. Then someone has to build the Jump Freighter to sell to you for ISK. Aurum (AUR) takes the player and economy and entire game out of the equation. You enter your CC# and BAM! Frieghter spawns in your hangar. Making it straight from Cash -> Jump Freighter DESTROYS the in-game economy. Why bother with manufacturing if you can purchase it immediately in the cash shop? Why bother with invention if you can buy a pre-built ship in the cash shop? Why bother with reserach when it's already there? Why bother even aspiring to do anything besides mindlessly purchasing items in game with your credit card instead of playing the game to gain them? Why actually play the game if all your time invested is wasted because someone can buy a ship with better stats on it for no more effort than entering #'s into a prompt?

     

    This isn't a "well we could do Pay2Win in EVE", the memo was a "hey how are we going to do Pay2Win in EVE, Dust514, and World of Darkness and grab as much cash as possible?".

     

    Yes $50 (or whatever) monocles are retarded. However laying the groundwork for a Pay2Win PLUS $15/mo Sub fee payment system is too much for the EVE community to handle.

  • c4_Garudac4_Garuda Member Posts: 77

    I am just worried about those "items of power" in World of Darkness. The moment I see purchasable item that grants you 1 hit kills and stuff like that I wont even look at that game anymore. MTs are for aesthetics and aesthetics only. They also must lower those retarded prices...just lol. Luckily for me a lot of things can change over the next year or so, I quit EVE a few months ago tho, planned on going back but... CCP Y U NO BRAIN?!?!?!?!?!?!

    "To be a rock and not to roll..."

  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance Member Posts: 1,223

    I can tolerate the EQ2 Live cash shop since it's mainly appearance items (I know... some potions and mounts too, but none of the items are needed). Asking for a sub and having pay-to-win items in a cash shop is a big no-no. Jump freighters on sale for real money in a competitive game like EVE is a big no-no. Even if it costs $1000 to buy one, some lazy idiot will do it.

    However, if they don't get good returns i.e. if most people decide not to buy a $60 monocle, reason stands that the prices will go down. The monocle is not really the issue, the jump freighter is.

    I'm glad I left EVE last year.

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,521

    Originally posted by byz4ntinian

    Originally posted by Ausare

    What item currently in the game can you not buy with cash.  My corp bought a Jump Freighter with cash.

     Which brings a key difference into why this is such a terrible occurence. With Cash -> PLEX -> ISK, someone has to make the ISK, to buy the PLEX. Then someone has to build the Jump Freighter to sell to you for ISK. Aurum (AUR) takes the player and economy and entire game out of the equation. You enter your CC# and BAM! Frieghter spawns in your hangar. Making it straight from Cash -> Jump Freighter DESTROYS the in-game economy. Why bother with manufacturing if you can purchase it immediately in the cash shop? Why bother with invention if you can buy a pre-built ship in the cash shop? Why bother with reserach when it's already there? Why bother even aspiring to do anything besides mindlessly purchasing items in game with your credit card instead of playing the game to gain them? Why actually play the game if all your time invested is wasted because someone can buy a ship with better stats on it for no more effort than entering #'s into a prompt?

     

    This isn't a "well we could do Pay2Win in EVE", the memo was a "hey how are we going to do Pay2Win in EVE, Dust514, and World of Darkness and grab as much cash as possible?".

     

    Yes $50 (or whatever) monocles are retarded. However laying the groundwork for a Pay2Win PLUS $15/mo Sub fee payment system is too much for the EVE community to handle.

    Well, it seems to me that the reason to make it in game is that it doesn't cost you any real world cash.  Sure, if someone wants to spend the money on something they could buy in game, I say let them, but I'll be doing it the old fashioned way. 

    Now, if the jump freighter they buy with cash is better somehow (statistically, not cosmetically) than the one a player builds then I can see an issue.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

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