In my experience all that really happens in large raids like the 40 mans in vanilla WoW is the group tends to split into smaller groups within the larger whole, I hardly communicated with anyone except my fellow Mages for example. Compare that to the 10 man team I helped heal in the quest for our Amani war bears and it was far more personal as we didn't need seperate channels for each class or discipline and we could all talk freely on vent with it becoming a huge mumble because 20+ people are trying to talk at the same time.
playing jedi in this game wont be like being a jedi in kotor. because some dude with a blaster and trooper armour will be just as tough just as powerful and probably more deadly than you in pvp because he has a long range gun he has auto target and auto hit, he can shoot on the move without having to aim.. where as a jedi in this game has to chace the target down and get to melee distance before landing attacks that count. sure forces powers would work but the range will be toss compaired to a blaster rifle.
In any game that has a PvP component, classes need to be nominally equal.
You seem to have this idea in your head that Jedi toons should be mega-super-ultra-uber compared to non-jedi- which puzzles me a lot. This isn't about the movies or the lore or your jedi fetish, it's about game balance.
Force users are almost certainly going to be the most prevalent character choice, but I think BW has done an amazing job at making every class look equally cool and appealing to play.
No doubt there will be class rebalancing issues and endless ingame and forum QQs about 'class x needs a nerf' - but that's just part of the joy of MMOs, and inevitable- game balance is never going to be finished, it will always be a work in progress.
The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: Be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge. -Elbert Hubbard
I was a fan of big parties/raids when I first started mmos, but the last couple of years I've soured on it. There is just way too many headaches involved overall.
The last couple of years have started to make me a convert to small squad action. Games like Vindictus, DCUO, CoH/X, and others (while not the best games overall) really make you feel 'heroic' when it's just you, a few friends and a boss or set of objectives to finish.
Every action you perform is weighty, because there is no 'backup healer' really or 'another CC guy'. If one of you missteps, your whole mission can be in jeopardy, so you have to communicate more than in big groups. Big groups is usually "Ok, you just heal THIS guy, and I'll just heal that guy" or something which gets rather boring.
When you think about Star wars, outside of the major space battles and such, I lot of the action/story was based on small squad missions and their ability to work together, so I think it's much more fitting for small squads especially with all the story driven lore.
Quite a few MMO developers seem to have realised that the more players around, the less pressure on the individual. For instance, GW2's maximum party size is only one more than TOR's and GW2 fans are happily praising the choice for smaller groups because it means that each player matters more and they have to think tactically.
"Those who stand at the top determine what's wrong and what's right. This very place is neutral ground! Justice will prevail, you say? But of course it will! Whoever wins this war becomes justice!"
In my experience all that really happens in large raids like the 40 mans in vanilla WoW is the group tends to split into smaller groups within the larger whole, I hardly communicated with anyone except my fellow Mages for example. Compare that to the 10 man team I helped heal in the quest for our Amani war bears and it was far more personal as we didn't need seperate channels for each class or discipline and we could all talk freely on vent with it becoming a huge mumble because 20+ people are trying to talk at the same time.
That's whats supposed to happen.
The raid leaders bark out orders and the rest do their job, it's just like been in a real life army!
I played MMOs long enough not to care about party size because i always make do, but when a game says that every class can basically do everything it just think of four healers steamrolling through everything because they can do enough damage and keep themselves alive. And that will just skew the whole population to certain professions because they will have an easier time overall.
In my experience all that really happens in large raids like the 40 mans in vanilla WoW is the group tends to split into smaller groups within the larger whole, I hardly communicated with anyone except my fellow Mages for example. Compare that to the 10 man team I helped heal in the quest for our Amani war bears and it was far more personal as we didn't need seperate channels for each class or discipline and we could all talk freely on vent with it becoming a huge mumble because 20+ people are trying to talk at the same time.
That's whats supposed to happen.
The raid leaders bark out orders and the rest do their job, it's just like been in a real life army!
I played MMOs long enough not to care about party size because i always make do, but when a game says that every class can basically do everything it just think of four healers steamrolling through everything because they can do enough damage and keep themselves alive. And that will just skew the whole population to certain professions because they will have an easier time overall.
It does not need to be like that, raids can and should be social events too. You can get good progress while keeping it a happy place and you get much much higher member retention if people enjoy their time rather than seeing it as a duty or job. This kind of attitude always bemused me in games, the time spent in an mmo is about escapeology, enjoyment, socialising and immersing your self in a world that is otherwise not real. Why do people want to make it into a chore and suck all the fun out of it.
In my experience all that really happens in large raids like the 40 mans in vanilla WoW is the group tends to split into smaller groups within the larger whole, I hardly communicated with anyone except my fellow Mages for example. Compare that to the 10 man team I helped heal in the quest for our Amani war bears and it was far more personal as we didn't need seperate channels for each class or discipline and we could all talk freely on vent with it becoming a huge mumble because 20+ people are trying to talk at the same time.
That's whats supposed to happen.
The raid leaders bark out orders and the rest do their job, it's just like been in a real life army!
I played MMOs long enough not to care about party size because i always make do, but when a game says that every class can basically do everything it just think of four healers steamrolling through everything because they can do enough damage and keep themselves alive. And that will just skew the whole population to certain professions because they will have an easier time overall.
It does not need to be like that, raids can and should be social events too. You can get good progress while keeping it a happy place and you get much much higher member retention if people enjoy their time rather than seeing it as a duty or job. This kind of attitude always bemused me in games, the time spent in an mmo is about escapeology, enjoyment, socialising and immersing your self in a world that is otherwise not real. Why do people want to make it into a chore and suck all the fun out of it.
All i am saying is that with that many people involved the less screwing around the better for everyone. It's a chore getting that many people in one place to start, so it would be better for all if the main focus of what you doing is getting this thing done. And it's not like this is a majority of the game, you can talk about X-men:First Class that whole other time you are not raiding.
I got the impression that you can get everything you can get from the larger groups in 4 Mangroups if you know where to look.... This is one of the best things Bioware could have done. It means you don't have to be a guild slave and you can acheive everything with a few good freinds.
Well done Bioware
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I got the impression that you can get everything you can get from the larger groups in 4 Mangroups if you know where to look.... This is one of the best things Bioware could have done. It means you don't have to be a guild slave and you can acheive everything with a few good freinds.
Well done Bioware
I agree, to me it just makes the game more fun by not being forced to solo as much in off peak hours. However, I also like the PVP scenarious and larger groups so its good that they will be offering others larger type of group situations even if those are less common.
Well it kinda makes sense, you have everything you need, the trin and CC. But maybe 5 would have been better so you could add 1 more of something to the party. Like in some situations you may need 2 tanks or 2 CC or whatnot.
Well it kinda makes sense, you have everything you need, the trin and CC. But maybe 5 would have been better so you could add 1 more of something to the party. Like in some situations you may need 2 tanks or 2 CC or whatnot.
I personally think it depends on how the content is set up, if the content doesn't need 2 CCs or 2 tanks or whatever then it wouldn't need that 5th person.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I got the impression that you can get everything you can get from the larger groups in 4 Mangroups if you know where to look.... This is one of the best things Bioware could have done. It means you don't have to be a guild slave and you can acheive everything with a few good freinds.
Well done Bioware
What if you have 5 friends ? Someone always has to sit out? Four is a little low in my opinion. If the limit was 6 players and you have 4 friends, then you can just find two other players to team up with, no problem.
But if the limit is 4 players and you have 5 friends, someone is always stuck sitting on the sidelines.
I think other MMORPGs have shown that 6 player groups work fine, why lessen the number?
I got the impression that you can get everything you can get from the larger groups in 4 Mangroups if you know where to look.... This is one of the best things Bioware could have done. It means you don't have to be a guild slave and you can acheive everything with a few good freinds.
Well done Bioware
What if you have 5 friends ? Someone always has to sit out? Four is a little low in my opinion. If the limit was 6 players and you have 4 friends, then you can just find two other players to team up with, no problem.
But if the limit is 4 players and you have 5 friends, someone is always stuck sitting on the sidelines.
I think other MMORPGs have shown that 6 player groups work fine, why lessen the number?
maybe the way they have the encounter set up it works better for 4 people? besides the friends point is kinda moot at least to me it is.
If theres a 5 person group and you have 6 friends? whats happens you have to have that one sit it out?
What about a 6 person group and you ahve 7 friends? Same deal.
I personally think 4 is good because it requires even more cooperation within the group. If you only have 1 of each class and each class brings their own thing, then it puts weight on each player to play their class better. If you have a back up then it merely allows those two people to share the load whcih makes the classes more water down in that group.
Just my opinion of course. I'm okay with 4 not so much 3 but i'm okay with 4. 4, 5 or 6 really, anymore then that and the group just seems to get to big for me.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Obviously it comes down to early design decisions that were made, if they designed everything for 1-4 players they cant exactly just let 6 people groups in as suddenly there would be no challenge.
That said personally I prefer a group size of 6, being limited to 4 person groups (backup calls mean there can be multiple groups on a mission but still) is really annoying me in APB:R at the moment.
I may be being naive, but is it possible that future content may be shifted to larger groups if it becomes a point of feedback after launch? Difficulty scaling for existing flashpoints with upped max no. of players, more 8 man instances, more open world events?
I may be being naive, but is it possible that future content may be shifted to larger groups if it becomes a point of feedback after launch? Difficulty scaling for existing flashpoints with upped max no. of players, more 8 man instances, more open world events?
i doubt they will up the number of people in flashpoints but the small version of raids are 8 man. might do open world events but no idea how often they would be, if they decided to do them. so in the beginning people will likely have to rely on world boss hunting for large group open world stuff
I got the impression that you can get everything you can get from the larger groups in 4 Mangroups if you know where to look.... This is one of the best things Bioware could have done. It means you don't have to be a guild slave and you can acheive everything with a few good freinds.
Well done Bioware
What if you have 5 friends ? Someone always has to sit out? Four is a little low in my opinion. If the limit was 6 players and you have 4 friends, then you can just find two other players to team up with, no problem.
But if the limit is 4 players and you have 5 friends, someone is always stuck sitting on the sidelines.
I think other MMORPGs have shown that 6 player groups work fine, why lessen the number?
what if you have 6 friends..or 7/2 =3+4 ..so 8 is the minimal group count that could work but then.. if you have 9 friends.. or 10..
you get the point.. theres no way that argument could ever be included into design as there will always be a "what if"
SWG used to have 20 man groups (pre-nge) and even then ppl were left out coz the group was full ..
Good thing about SW:Tor will be the large amount of content so that one friend can always do his/her own thing and getting first group spot next time.
The one thing that bothers me tho about 4 man groups is that they are in general designed for the Tank/healer/dps/controler setup ..that makes dynamics of grouping rather dull.
The one thing that bothers me tho about 4 man groups is that they are in general designed for the Tank/healer/dps/controler setup ..that makes dynamics of grouping rather dull.
Not if most classes are multi-role, like for example 1 class is cc/healer, another tank/cc, is dps/cc and so on. It would mean that one class can fill in as tank for example or as cc, and that another can switch from cc/dps to healer, depending what his other team members will do.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I got the impression that you can get everything you can get from the larger groups in 4 Mangroups if you know where to look.... This is one of the best things Bioware could have done. It means you don't have to be a guild slave and you can acheive everything with a few good freinds.
Well done Bioware
What if you have 5 friends ? Someone always has to sit out? Four is a little low in my opinion. If the limit was 6 players and you have 4 friends, then you can just find two other players to team up with, no problem.
But if the limit is 4 players and you have 5 friends, someone is always stuck sitting on the sidelines.
I think other MMORPGs have shown that 6 player groups work fine, why lessen the number?
Are you and your friends ALWAYS online at the SAME time ? And what if I will buy this game 1 month after release when all ppl are at max lvl grinding raids / pvp ? You never ended up in situation at say lvl 20, when you are LFGing for frikking HOUR, getting 2 more players, and have to logoff not having more time to play [lfg spam] ???
From what we know 4 mans are for leveling, and if we can duo them with 2 companions EVEN BETTER. That means me and my GF can enjoy our game even if there is nobody else willing to run Flashpoints with us. Have loads of friends ? Split into groups and rotate, play with 3 of them , then with another 2. Need to play with all of them at once go to BG's. Leveling is not gonna last THAT long and you will play with your friends while gear grinding at endgame.
If you don't play at prime times [like me], not having money to pay for boost / high lvl friends to boost you throught 6 man dungeon at the time you are online feels bad.
As has been stated before on this thread, it all depends on content design.
If all mobs can be tanked by anyone, but the only real need is dps and a little bit more defence on the person that decides to be the tank, all is well.
If a dedicated tank is needed, however, then 4 man party's are going to fail:
Rift as an example: Almost every class (except the mages) can be group tanks... the biggest need in the game is of a tank, since everyone, including the cleric class, goes dps.
Since SW:ToR is doing a similar system of any class can satisfy many roles, I foresee this as being a problem as well, unless like I said before, almost all classes tank the group content, with the only catch being having enough dps to bring the mobs down before they bring you down... ie, having more members in your party.
Comments
In my experience all that really happens in large raids like the 40 mans in vanilla WoW is the group tends to split into smaller groups within the larger whole, I hardly communicated with anyone except my fellow Mages for example. Compare that to the 10 man team I helped heal in the quest for our Amani war bears and it was far more personal as we didn't need seperate channels for each class or discipline and we could all talk freely on vent with it becoming a huge mumble because 20+ people are trying to talk at the same time.
In any game that has a PvP component, classes need to be nominally equal.
You seem to have this idea in your head that Jedi toons should be mega-super-ultra-uber compared to non-jedi- which puzzles me a lot. This isn't about the movies or the lore or your jedi fetish, it's about game balance.
Force users are almost certainly going to be the most prevalent character choice, but I think BW has done an amazing job at making every class look equally cool and appealing to play.
No doubt there will be class rebalancing issues and endless ingame and forum QQs about 'class x needs a nerf' - but that's just part of the joy of MMOs, and inevitable- game balance is never going to be finished, it will always be a work in progress.
The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: Be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.
-Elbert Hubbard
I was a fan of big parties/raids when I first started mmos, but the last couple of years I've soured on it. There is just way too many headaches involved overall.
The last couple of years have started to make me a convert to small squad action. Games like Vindictus, DCUO, CoH/X, and others (while not the best games overall) really make you feel 'heroic' when it's just you, a few friends and a boss or set of objectives to finish.
Every action you perform is weighty, because there is no 'backup healer' really or 'another CC guy'. If one of you missteps, your whole mission can be in jeopardy, so you have to communicate more than in big groups. Big groups is usually "Ok, you just heal THIS guy, and I'll just heal that guy" or something which gets rather boring.
When you think about Star wars, outside of the major space battles and such, I lot of the action/story was based on small squad missions and their ability to work together, so I think it's much more fitting for small squads especially with all the story driven lore.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Quite a few MMO developers seem to have realised that the more players around, the less pressure on the individual. For instance, GW2's maximum party size is only one more than TOR's and GW2 fans are happily praising the choice for smaller groups because it means that each player matters more and they have to think tactically.
"Those who stand at the top determine what's wrong and what's right. This very place is neutral ground! Justice will prevail, you say? But of course it will! Whoever wins this war becomes justice!"
Tbh I think it's to keep the originality from KOTOR, but that's just me speaking.
That's whats supposed to happen.
The raid leaders bark out orders and the rest do their job, it's just like been in a real life army!
I played MMOs long enough not to care about party size because i always make do, but when a game says that every class can basically do everything it just think of four healers steamrolling through everything because they can do enough damage and keep themselves alive. And that will just skew the whole population to certain professions because they will have an easier time overall.
WoW Sidequests
It does not need to be like that, raids can and should be social events too. You can get good progress while keeping it a happy place and you get much much higher member retention if people enjoy their time rather than seeing it as a duty or job. This kind of attitude always bemused me in games, the time spent in an mmo is about escapeology, enjoyment, socialising and immersing your self in a world that is otherwise not real. Why do people want to make it into a chore and suck all the fun out of it.
All i am saying is that with that many people involved the less screwing around the better for everyone. It's a chore getting that many people in one place to start, so it would be better for all if the main focus of what you doing is getting this thing done. And it's not like this is a majority of the game, you can talk about X-men:First Class that whole other time you are not raiding.
WoW Sidequests
IMO the only 4man groups will be only for FPs till cap level. after that i think all will be lot larger for heroics and raids
I got the impression that you can get everything you can get from the larger groups in 4 Mangroups if you know where to look.... This is one of the best things Bioware could have done. It means you don't have to be a guild slave and you can acheive everything with a few good freinds.
Well done Bioware
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I agree, to me it just makes the game more fun by not being forced to solo as much in off peak hours. However, I also like the PVP scenarious and larger groups so its good that they will be offering others larger type of group situations even if those are less common.
There Is Always Hope!
Keeping class size down would make tuning encounters that much easier. Could give a much more refined experience.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Well it kinda makes sense, you have everything you need, the trin and CC. But maybe 5 would have been better so you could add 1 more of something to the party. Like in some situations you may need 2 tanks or 2 CC or whatnot.
I personally think it depends on how the content is set up, if the content doesn't need 2 CCs or 2 tanks or whatever then it wouldn't need that 5th person.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
What if you have 5 friends
? Someone always has to sit out? Four is a little low in my opinion. If the limit was 6 players and you have 4 friends, then you can just find two other players to team up with, no problem.
But if the limit is 4 players and you have 5 friends, someone is always stuck sitting on the sidelines.
I think other MMORPGs have shown that 6 player groups work fine, why lessen the number?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
maybe the way they have the encounter set up it works better for 4 people? besides the friends point is kinda moot at least to me it is.
If theres a 5 person group and you have 6 friends? whats happens you have to have that one sit it out?
What about a 6 person group and you ahve 7 friends? Same deal.
I personally think 4 is good because it requires even more cooperation within the group. If you only have 1 of each class and each class brings their own thing, then it puts weight on each player to play their class better. If you have a back up then it merely allows those two people to share the load whcih makes the classes more water down in that group.
Just my opinion of course. I'm okay with 4 not so much 3 but i'm okay with 4. 4, 5 or 6 really, anymore then that and the group just seems to get to big for me.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
4 character parties sound perfect.
One of the best features in my opinion.
Seems fine to me. I remember playing Everquest Online Adventures on the PS2 which also only had 4-person parties.
Obviously it comes down to early design decisions that were made, if they designed everything for 1-4 players they cant exactly just let 6 people groups in as suddenly there would be no challenge.
That said personally I prefer a group size of 6, being limited to 4 person groups (backup calls mean there can be multiple groups on a mission but still) is really annoying me in APB:R at the moment.
I may be being naive, but is it possible that future content may be shifted to larger groups if it becomes a point of feedback after launch? Difficulty scaling for existing flashpoints with upped max no. of players, more 8 man instances, more open world events?
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
i doubt they will up the number of people in flashpoints but the small version of raids are 8 man. might do open world events but no idea how often they would be, if they decided to do them. so in the beginning people will likely have to rely on world boss hunting for large group open world stuff
what if you have 6 friends..or 7/2 =3+4 ..so 8 is the minimal group count that could work but then.. if you have 9 friends.. or 10..
you get the point.. theres no way that argument could ever be included into design as there will always be a "what if"
SWG used to have 20 man groups (pre-nge) and even then ppl were left out coz the group was full ..
Good thing about SW:Tor will be the large amount of content so that one friend can always do his/her own thing and getting first group spot next time.
The one thing that bothers me tho about 4 man groups is that they are in general designed for the Tank/healer/dps/controler setup ..that makes dynamics of grouping rather dull.
Not if most classes are multi-role, like for example 1 class is cc/healer, another tank/cc, is dps/cc and so on. It would mean that one class can fill in as tank for example or as cc, and that another can switch from cc/dps to healer, depending what his other team members will do.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Are you and your friends ALWAYS online at the SAME time ? And what if I will buy this game 1 month after release when all ppl are at max lvl grinding raids / pvp ? You never ended up in situation at say lvl 20, when you are LFGing for frikking HOUR, getting 2 more players, and have to logoff not having more time to play [lfg spam] ???
From what we know 4 mans are for leveling, and if we can duo them with 2 companions EVEN BETTER. That means me and my GF can enjoy our game even if there is nobody else willing to run Flashpoints with us. Have loads of friends ? Split into groups and rotate, play with 3 of them , then with another 2. Need to play with all of them at once go to BG's. Leveling is not gonna last THAT long and you will play with your friends while gear grinding at endgame.
If you don't play at prime times [like me], not having money to pay for boost / high lvl friends to boost you throught 6 man dungeon at the time you are online feels bad.
As has been stated before on this thread, it all depends on content design.
If all mobs can be tanked by anyone, but the only real need is dps and a little bit more defence on the person that decides to be the tank, all is well.
If a dedicated tank is needed, however, then 4 man party's are going to fail:
Rift as an example: Almost every class (except the mages) can be group tanks... the biggest need in the game is of a tank, since everyone, including the cleric class, goes dps.
Since SW:ToR is doing a similar system of any class can satisfy many roles, I foresee this as being a problem as well, unless like I said before, almost all classes tank the group content, with the only catch being having enough dps to bring the mobs down before they bring you down... ie, having more members in your party.