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Labour Points, blessing or curse?

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  • MarlonBMarlonB Member UncommonPosts: 526

    Originally posted by AzurePrower

     




    Originally posted by ghoul31

    no, it will just force everyone to craft and gather for an hour a day. The people who want to do it all day won't be able to. And the people who hate crafting and gathering will have to do it because it will be so valuable.

    So it just makes everyone do what they don't want to do.



     

    Would you rather botting be rampant and crafting/gathering be worthless?

    This is not them saying "this is an innovative system that will appeal to every one", this is them saying, "this is our way on how to combat botting so your time spent doing these tasks will not be in vain."

    See the difference? As much as they would like to give you complete freedom, there will be those who would abuse such freedoms.

    In SWG everyone botted it .... they called it harvesters. And still it was the best crafting game ever.

     

    Sampling by hand should be for noob crafters ... experienced crafters that can build boats and houses should also be able to make harvesters and factories.

  • holifeetholifeet Member Posts: 532

    I personally love the idea of labour points because it adds some realism in to the game. Gone will be the days of people making endless amounts of money because they have all the hours under the sun to craft. Gone will be the days of endless sources of materials flooding the markets. It may almost be like SWG and rare resources, if you consider that resources in AA will be limited to make the best gear. People could craft all day in SWG but they weren't likely getting all the best resources.

    It suits me down to the ground to be honest. I love to craft but I don't have all the time in the world because a) I just don't, and b) I like to adventure too. I can now keep up and be successful in the limited time I might have. It's about management of points. That's probably a selfish reason, but I feel it's good enough.

    I just feel that labour points will be a blessing to this game, and I hope XL stick to their guns on the subject.

    All hail the Pixel, for it is glorious Orange!
    .
  • ichimarunicoichimarunico Member Posts: 210

    Originally posted by MarlonB

    Originally posted by AzurePrower

     




    Originally posted by ghoul31

    no, it will just force everyone to craft and gather for an hour a day. The people who want to do it all day won't be able to. And the people who hate crafting and gathering will have to do it because it will be so valuable.

    So it just makes everyone do what they don't want to do.



     

    Would you rather botting be rampant and crafting/gathering be worthless?

    This is not them saying "this is an innovative system that will appeal to every one", this is them saying, "this is our way on how to combat botting so your time spent doing these tasks will not be in vain."

    See the difference? As much as they would like to give you complete freedom, there will be those who would abuse such freedoms.

    In SWG everyone botted it .... they called it harvesters. And still it was the best crafting game ever.

     

    Sampling by hand should be for noob crafters ... experienced crafters that can build boats and houses should also be able to make harvesters and factories.

    How would that fit into a pre-industrial setting? Viking shipbuilders didn't have a woodchopping machine set up in the forest, they had all of the villagers cutting logs for days to build the ships with. Castle stone wasn't mined up from an extractor, because they didn't exist. It got carved out of a mountain and dragged home by slaves, peasants, or what have you.

    Harvesters were great in SWG, but they made sense in SWG. That was a normal circumstance. Here it would be an absolute immersion-breaker.

  • MarlonBMarlonB Member UncommonPosts: 526

    Originally posted by ichimarunico

    Originally posted by MarlonB


    Originally posted by AzurePrower

     




    Originally posted by ghoul31

    no, it will just force everyone to craft and gather for an hour a day. The people who want to do it all day won't be able to. And the people who hate crafting and gathering will have to do it because it will be so valuable.

    So it just makes everyone do what they don't want to do.



     

    Would you rather botting be rampant and crafting/gathering be worthless?

    This is not them saying "this is an innovative system that will appeal to every one", this is them saying, "this is our way on how to combat botting so your time spent doing these tasks will not be in vain."

    See the difference? As much as they would like to give you complete freedom, there will be those who would abuse such freedoms.

    In SWG everyone botted it .... they called it harvesters. And still it was the best crafting game ever.

     

    Sampling by hand should be for noob crafters ... experienced crafters that can build boats and houses should also be able to make harvesters and factories.

    How would that fit into a pre-industrial setting? Viking shipbuilders didn't have a woodchopping machine set up in the forest, they had all of the villagers cutting logs for days to build the ships with. Castle stone wasn't mined up from an extractor, because they didn't exist. It got carved out of a mountain and dragged home by slaves, peasants, or what have you.

    Harvesters were great in SWG, but they made sense in SWG. That was a normal circumstance. Here it would be an absolute immersion-breaker.

     

    I agree with you on the settings.

    However the point i was trying to make is that botters doesn't necessarily needs to be a problem for this game regarding resource gathering. So i also don't see that as a reason to limit labour points and with that limit me in my options.

  • lenyboblenybob Member Posts: 62

    Originally posted by zereelist

    Originally posted by DarkPony


    Originally posted by Yalexy

    To give you all some insight...

    There's a limit to make ressources a finite amount based on server-population. Finite ressources in conjunction with loss of or breaking of items are a key to build a fully functional playerdriven economy. Supply shouldn't exceed demand too much to keep prices rather stable.

    This limit also helps to level the playingfield between the players, as not every player has time to play several hours a day. If gathering and crafting would only be a question of time invested, then the casual players would be disadvantaged even more.

    And yes, it also prevents botting.

    Yeah I can clearly see all the advantages and realism to such a system but still there is the question: will players who like to craft a lot burn through their LP in a short time each day and be forced to do other things?

    There is realism also to a game offering a lot of choice in gameplay aspects as well as rewarding those who put in a lot of time and effort into a certain aspect rather than having even casual crafters being able to keep up with a short time and effort investment each day and then move on to do other stuff which essentially turns crafting into ... *dum, dum, dummmm* ... "daily crafts".

    I think you burn through LP rather quickly if that's all you do.  If you are serious enough about it then you will spend your remaining time earning money and paying other people for their labour.

    I personally love the idea of LP.  Sadly, I bet RMT farmers will work together and create some serious monopolies.  But at least they won't be able to bot while doing it. 

    whether they can or not, is not rooted in LP. LP mean your can only do something every x min, in effect.

    it also means you can only do x/y min; x being the regeneration rate, and y being the number of characters. if you make a full host of characters, max for the account, then all of them are recharging their LP in tandem; after all LP are character based not account based. also farmers generally have multiple accounts or friends with an account. so you can set it up so that your bot logs into your account, uses up enough labor points on all your characters so that when you actually log into the game you are still regenerating them. (after all there is a cap like hp right?)

     

    if you do this for yourself and your friends, then the botters have relative oligarchies because their points never cap, while the rest of people, do. as such it is a boon to botters.

    if the points generate and stack indefinately, then your regeneration rate is still divided by the number of characters you have. and so the monitization of the points will translate of the integral of labor points; all the ones accumulated in the month. and a profit ratio above the subscription cost. litterally the LP will be more valuible than the stuff obtained, because like that 'god material thing' you can turn LP into any material, including crafted stuff. meaning LP on a crafter is worth more than the tangeble good created because of the freedom of market pressures and delivery. 

    there is no spacial overhead for storage because the system has an infinate pool, unlike actually crafting the stuff. because the system seems designed for the single time spending of weekend only players.

    this will create an AH not maintained in game. a website which sells gold and LP and the stuff LP makes.

     

    my general point, is that all systems can be 'exploited', or rather optumized for 'playstyle'. to make bots unable to profit from the system, you'd have to explicitly watch for bot like behaviors. something hard to do.

    the only thing this accheives is a level of realism where toons get tired of repeditive tasks. the problem remains the obsessive people who enjoy mining, crafting, et all, are having their playstyle limited.

  • lenyboblenybob Member Posts: 62

    Originally posted by ghoul31

    no, it will just force everyone to craft and gather for an hour a day. The people who want to do it all day won't be able to. And the people who hate crafting and gathering will have to do it because it will be so valuable.

    So it just makes everyone do what they don't want to do.

    well in all game ballancing doesn't that happen anyway?

  • lenyboblenybob Member Posts: 62

    Originally posted by Sinella

    The labor point system concerns me too. I love the concept of Archeage but I'm mainly a crafter. Labor points sound like energy in Facebook games....you use them up in 5 minutes and either you buy some more for cash or you have to log out for 3 hours before you can do something again. 

    I see no point in this limitation, why should I be forced to fight something when I'd like to craft or gather ?

    This is a much bigger limitation than what FFXIV placed on players with the fatique system. Hardly anyone has met the limit in FFXIV, but its very easy to run out of labor points in AA.

    i don't get it either

  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 698

    If I feel I have to make a bunch of chars and log into each every day to do my chores before logging on to my main I wont last long.

  • honourswordhonoursword Member UncommonPosts: 82

    I also like the idea of LP if it is done correctly. It adds some realism to the game and I love the idea of having to hire other people to get certain larger things built. Very realistic and community building. You could have construction company guilds that you can hire to build ships and houses etc... It should also hamper botters (hopefully) and make things more difficult for them.

    I understand the concerns of people who are pure crafters but for me (who is also a pure crafter) my concern is around the simplistic crafting system and no word on whether there is item decay or not. I was hoping for something similar to SWG but obviously in a fantasy setting. Something where there is different quality resources and different quality items produced as a result. There is also no word on item decay which I think is pretty vital for crafting to really shine and be important.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by ghoul31

    In a sandbox game, you should be free to do what you want. So I don't see why people are going to be limited in the amount of gathering and crafting they do.

    It never really works like that. You can't make a game without limitations, at least not a multiplayer game. 

    The only way you can get a 100% sandbox game is in a pen and paper RPG and already that is hard if you and the other players disagree about too much stuff.

    There must be rules set by the game how things work, your knife shouldn't do more dmage than a sword no matter how much you think that limits your fredoom.

    These work points is a somewhat odd system , but they are not that unrealistic. You can't really spend 18 hours a day logging timber, there is no way you can handle that IRL so it is not illogical that the amount of work your character can do in a single day should be limited as well as long as they don't overdo it.

    MMOs are really generous with time anyways. A sword takes a few seconds to craft in a MMO. A good classic Japanese swordsmith made about 20 good swords in his lifetime (and quite a few crappy ones for regular soldiers but we are talking high quality gear here). Of course no one would spend 2 years in a game to make a sword but some limitations is not wrong.

    Many people seems to think that just because it is a sandbox game you can't break the laws of physics as you like, but that is not really what a sandbox is about. A sandbox means that the players create the main part of the games content together within the physics and mechanics of the gameworld.

    If you want a 100% sandbox where you can do whatever you like, just close your eyes and daydream.

  • ghoul31ghoul31 Member Posts: 1,955

    Originally posted by Loke666

    These work points is a somewhat odd system , but they are not that unrealistic. You can't really spend 18 hours a day logging timber, there is no way you can handle that IRL so it is not illogical that the amount of work your character can do in a single day should be limited as well as long as they don't overdo it.

     Don't give me the realistic argument. is it realistic to fight monsters for 18 hours a day? Is it realistic to be reborn every time you die?

     

  • Tomm-eTomm-e Member Posts: 27

     

    If the game goes F2P then this has completely put me off the game, I love the idea of labour points, but you have to remember this is a free to play game, you think this will stop the people with the most time being able to rack up loads of money via crafting, which it will, but instead I feel it will turn into whoever can cash shop the most will be the best crafter, because in the end there will be a way to recharge your point via the cash shop, if there is not, this is an amazing feature but for now in my eyes it is just another way to get money.

    stylin'

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001

    Labour points is a new fresh idea.  Unless you truly want mmorgs to stagnate you got to take risks, go with the flow and let new ideas like Labour flow and develop.  Remember new can be fun, even finding ways to manipulate new dieas is fun (especially in a sandbox)

    Labour points = added complexity and freshness to the game and can only mean blessing.  If it doesnt work, developers can allways tweak it.  Maybe old players are too stuck in the mud/risk adverse eh :P

     

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  • OziiusOziius Member UncommonPosts: 1,405

    Originally posted by MarlonB

    I was a bit gobsmacked by that too .... why would you limit that .... sandbox is about having no limits.

    Anyways, if it turns out to be enough to be gathering for say two or 3 hours a day, i'm fine with it ... but i would hate to find myself without labour points in half an hour.

    Also my gaming time concentrates around friday and saturday nights .... i wouldn't mind accumulating the points i didn't use during the week, so i can spend 8 hours on gathering when i do have the time for long sessions.

     

     

    Would love to hear clarification on this topic.

    I don't think the term "sandbox" just artifically means "no limits". When I played Shadowbane years ago, the term was used to desribe the type of world. Sandbox just meant you're all thrown in together  and less linear as opossed to having instances and quest that lead you from one point to another. 

     

    I personally don't have an issue with the limits. As long as they don't take too long to replenish. Then again, I've never been the type who can stand crafting and harvesting all day. 

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704

    Originally posted by Sinella

    The labor point system concerns me too. I love the concept of Archeage but I'm mainly a crafter. Labor points sound like energy in Facebook games....you use them up in 5 minutes and either you buy some more for cash or you have to log out for 3 hours before you can do something again. 

    I see no point in this limitation, why should I be forced to fight something when I'd like to craft or gather ?

    This is a much bigger limitation than what FFXIV placed on players with the fatique system. Hardly anyone has met the limit in FFXIV, but its very easy to run out of labor points in AA.

     While ArcheAge will play to a much narrower playerbase, it still plays to a wide variety of gamers....with different amounts of time to play.

    If you build the game in mind for only the most dedicated and hardcore audience, you end up with a situation like Lineage 2 where the stingy drop tables & huge money sinks killed legit play by the not so hardcore players....which eventually led to players ebaying or just quiting.

    If you build the game in mind for only the most casual audience, you end up with a situation lke World of Warcraft where the hardcore audience burns through the content in under a month and they are left standing...bored...looking for other games to play for 8-10 months till the next expansion.

    Both scenarios aren't where you want your game to be.

    So to answer your question, the limit is there to make sure that players aren't blowing through the content and left standing with idle hands....and we all know about idle hands...

    This mechanic isn't an issue with me so long that its implemented correctly.  Are there modifiers that reduce the amount of labor used per craft / harvest....depending on the skill of the crafter?  I could see something where as your skill in a gathering or crafting skill goes up, it uses less labor.  This would allow players who created crafting mains to play for a lot longer than say......a warrior main with only 20% crafting.

    Also, having only a limited amount of Labor points available (and giveing EVERYONE labor points) allows players a quick and easy way to get on their feet (monitarily) so that way you have a little nest egg money to train your skills.

    Its also a way to get people grouping & forming guilds / alliances right out the gate.  Less people running around with no direction or clue as what to do....the better it is for your game.

    With all that said, if the labor point system essentially limits crafting & gathering to just a sideshow mechanic (like in most of the other recent MMOs) then that will be a shame.

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704

    Originally posted by anastaia

     






    Originally posted by Sinella



    "This is a much bigger limitation than what FFXIV placed on players with the fatique system. Hardly anyone has met the limit in FFXIV"




     

    While I'm not sure what FFXIV you played where people don't hit the fatigue system. I am Plagued with it every day i do leves. Every 36 hours for atleast 12 hours of my game play Across 4 different classes i am being EXP penalised for gaining experience "quickly" and over a "lengthy" amount of time. Due to the fact that the Fatigue timer does not reset for a full Fu*king week! FFXIV suffers greatly due to its fatigue system. and as such they are trying to find an alternative to it quickly. It's never a good thing to punish a person with time to play the game for using it.

     It's also never a good idea to punish players who DONT have 30-40 hours a week to play.  I'm not saying the game has to sell out to the casual audience like World of Warcraft did.....but you also can't alienate those folks that only have 15-20 hours a week to play.  You have to hit that happy medium thats keeping people from blowing through the content at break neck speeds (because they will get board and play somewhere else) and keeping people from quiting in fustration because they feel like they can't get stuff done without having alteast 5 hours at a time to play.

  • aspekxaspekx Member UncommonPosts: 2,167

    the assertion concerning FFXIV's fatigue system and the LP system in AA being a play against players i agree with.

     

    i am not hardcore at *all* the only maxed characters i have ever had were 2 on SWG from preNGE and 2 on WoW preCata. and those literally took me more than a year to cap them out. why? b/c i love to wander. i love to hunt and mine and craft and socialize.

    if the LP is going to be a hardline in AA then i will not be paying for it. as ive mentioned in other posts i play games that have the elements i am looking for, and harvesting and a meaningful crafting system are both in that list. however, i do not believe that LP makes crafting meaningful, it subordinates anyone who isn't a vet or doesn't have the financial resources to the other realms of gameplay.

    dont get me wrong, i enjoy pve, and have even gotten off on some great spontaneous pvp action in the past. however, if im paying, i want to do what i want with as few restrictions as are feasible for the setting and mechanics of the game. its one of the things i loved about EQ2, you can harvest *anything* and just do that all day if you like, which i have done before.

    i get the benefits of LP, especially in limiting bots or their human counterparts from cranking the economy up until it overheats and meltsdown. it forces player coordination of scale. it offers something to those who don't care to harvest or craft a way to get something out of those abilities that are usually lying dormant in their skill list.

    however, it just, plainly put, seems to punish crafters and harvesters.

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    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
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  • KharmedKharmed Member Posts: 101

    I don't know all the details of how they will implement the system, but if it's done as a barrier to slow down people from progressing too fast it could be a fail.

     

    I personally don't mind as long as it isn't too punishing(As in crafting one piece and having to wait or get points to continue... it must give the feeling of accomplishment).

    image

  • aspekxaspekx Member UncommonPosts: 2,167

    Originally posted by Kharmed

    I don't know all the details of how they will implement the system, but if it's done as a barrier to slow down people from progressing too fast it could be a fail.

     

    I personally don't mind as long as it isn't too punishing(As in crafting one piece and having to wait or get points to continue... it must give the feeling of accomplishment).

    i dunno, i get a sense of accomplishment from crafting, simply by being able to help someone out with a piece of gear or something they need.

    i spose we all draw our sense of accomplishment from different arenas.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • KharmedKharmed Member Posts: 101

    Originally posted by chelan

    Originally posted by Kharmed

    I don't know all the details of how they will implement the system, but if it's done as a barrier to slow down people from progressing too fast it could be a fail.

     

    I personally don't mind as long as it isn't too punishing(As in crafting one piece and having to wait or get points to continue... it must give the feeling of accomplishment).

    i dunno, i get a sense of accomplishment from crafting, simply by being able to help someone out with a piece of gear or something they need.

    i spose we all draw our sense of accomplishment from different arenas.

    I'm talking about XIV style where I had to create nails and then get a carpenter to make me a wooden stick  and after a day of effort get told that the craft failed and that I have to restart from skratch.

    image

  • aspekxaspekx Member UncommonPosts: 2,167

    Originally posted by Kharmed

    Originally posted by chelan


    Originally posted by Kharmed

    I don't know all the details of how they will implement the system, but if it's done as a barrier to slow down people from progressing too fast it could be a fail.

     

    I personally don't mind as long as it isn't too punishing(As in crafting one piece and having to wait or get points to continue... it must give the feeling of accomplishment).

    i dunno, i get a sense of accomplishment from crafting, simply by being able to help someone out with a piece of gear or something they need.

    i spose we all draw our sense of accomplishment from different arenas.

    I'm talking about XIV style where I had to create nails and then get a carpenter to make me a wooden stick  and after a day of effort get told that the craft failed and that I have to restart from skratch.

    see, its just my opinion, but that's punishing play. however, some people prefer gameplay with the gloves off. there *is* a niche market for it. however, if i want that kind of detail in my gaming i think i would just save the money and goto one of those folkschools where you can learn timberframing or blacksmithing essentials in a week =)

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • KharmedKharmed Member Posts: 101

    Yeah, I think people making games should be smart enough to make crafting fun and challenging.

    image

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768

    Originally posted by ghoul31

    no, it will just force everyone to craft and gather for an hour a day. The people who want to do it all day won't be able to. And the people who hate crafting and gathering will have to do it because it will be so valuable.

    So it just makes everyone do what they don't want to do.

     They could use these points for other things such as:  Buffs, temp powers, opening doors to an instance for a while, in game puzzles, etc. 

    It's a good thing.

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  • causscauss Member UncommonPosts: 666

    Actually, I really dig this system.

     

    IF you want to be a full crafter, you can get the word out; you craft and trade by demand for those labor points. The extra stuff you craft you can sell so you'll have your profit.

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