The problem is not the companies, its those in the forums, here mainly, that believe their view of how a game should be developed is what the majority of people want. You are the minority, you just happen to be the loudest on the forums because those happy with the game they are playing..well aren't screaming about it on the forums. I'm willing to bet of all those MMO gamers out there willing to spend cash on a game, those that complain every game is a rip off, themepark, POS only make up about 10% of the market. Given that % as a business man or even a developer the #1 goal is the success of the game they are creating, so they are not going to try and make a game to please 10% of the MMO community they are going to create a game that appeals to the vast majority not the loud, screaming, jaded minority.
So they poster that says we show our displeasure with our wallet is exactly right, thats why companies generally follow the same formula for MMO development.
Yeah we are the problem because we voice our concerns. Give me a break.
Just because we say it and are vocal doesn't mean that other people dont feel similar. The only difference is we speak up, its in our nature.
There are plenty of people who let bad things happen to them, let people treat them badly and they dont speak up. Just because they dont speak up, doesn't mean they like it.
A typical customer might not say the shit we do, they just say FK IT and dont play anymore.
Loud, screaming and jaded? I look at it differently. We know what we like and what we want. As one poster put it, "My tastes have matured." Just because random nub gamer doesn't know what he likes, doesn't mean that he wouldnt enjoy the quality we expect from a game.
Its like having never seen or drove a car before, and the first car you get happens to be a Ferrari. What do you have to complain about? Its all you ever knew. In time you learn what you like and dont like. Same thing with games.
My first mmo was Shadowbane. I loved it. My first car was a VW Bug. I loved it too. Both had perks and I enjoyed both but in time I voted with my wallet, again.
The more time goes on, the more MMO gamers we will see, and with that will come a growing vocal majority.
Take that for what you will, your logic is flawed.
not long ago some of my students ask me if i could supervise a project of them so it could gain a more official character. they want to create a mmorpg concept (only the paper work) based on scientific considerations of psychological and sociological factors. these factors, hidden in all the features a mmorpg can have, decide if a player will bond to the game and will stick with it for a long time.
the project will begin after the summerbreak in october and i thought for a good start i try to get someone from the business - a developer, product manager or lead designer - to hold a guest lecture about the developmentprocess of a mmorpg with the possibility for the students to ask question. so i got on the phone and made some calls. it wouldn't be a problem to get a developer or representative from a company to step up talking about the business in general, or databank management, programming or any other technical thing ... but actually what psychological and sociological impact a specific feature can have on a player and what can be archived with this, no one could tell me. even if they maybe know someone who can help us lead to a dead end.
well, i didn't talk to any company, only to five from the big mmorpg publishers/development companies and some smaller companies. also germany isn't the home of great mmorpg development studios, but that noone could help me, even know a person that could be of some help makes me wonder and lead to the conclusion that mmorpgs are only build on economical evaluation.
so i have to wait for the gamescon to come and knock on some doors in the business area in hope to get some answers.
I recently read that Funcom is partnering up with EA. Many of the replies showed a fair amount of hate or distrust for EA
That got me to thinking, do these Companies know why we hate/distrust them?
Do they care? Or do they just take that info and decide to run PR campaigns, essentially just smoke and mirrors with no real change.
Do they know why their games flopped?
Do you think behind closed doors, they honestly admit to themselves or one another that they pushed a game out to fast?
or admit they did any wrong?
My guess is, NO. And I will tell you why. Corporate. I've worked for some incredibly large companies, Painwebber, American Express, Canon etc and some smaller corporate companies. And what I have seen by and large is a motto of 1- cover your ass and 2-Blame someone else.
Thats my opinion at least. I think thats why these companies repeat the same mistakes, because there is no personal responsibility. No one owns up, or owns the mistake.
What do you think?
In the immortal words of John Mcenroe "You can not be serious!"
I'm 41 yrs old, why on earth would I express an emotion of hate towards a games maker?
Some ppl really do stare into their own navels for too long these days.
That's pretty much it. If a person pitches a fit on a fourm but still buys the products, then the issue isn't The Man or EvilCorpCo but the person that barks at the moon while clicking Submit on their next pre-order.
This, I get so sick of seing it, poster rails on company and game the entirety of it's development, then purchases said game anyway.. It really makes no sense, like so many who claim to hate themeparks etc.. yet are day 1 players of every single one that releases.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think bad companys suffer from a couple of things:
a) Money is their real passion, not the games themselves. The game is just the means to an end.
b) The decision makers are too far from the player base, probably spending too much time on board meetings and looking on graphs to be able to hear anything the players say - or judge the quality of what the players are saying.
I would say it's little misleading to put the fault on developers, as they are often who understand good game design, but need to do their job to get paid. They may not be making the dream game they always wanted. It's the big bosses, the people funding the projects, that do the decisions, and they don't necessarily know much about good game design, or even care about games in some cases, they generally have only one value and it's profit.
This is more often the case than not.
CEO's care about only one thing, the bottom line. And they will savage anything in the chain of sales to get it, because the bigger the bottom line, the bigger their bonuses. That's the nature of the beast, pure and simple. You as a customer will only matter if you either buy or don't buy the product. Well after the product is released and sales are disappointing, do they bother to look at why something they were banking on (literally) to make a certain profit flopped. If its because a key guy tasked with making it work failed, he is replaced. If the product concept will not sell because the market doesn't want it, no further such products will be made. If the product did great, they make another one and if possible, improve on it to command a larger market share. There are only two things Corps worry about, will you buy their product and are there legal issues they can be sued for. If they care about your opinion, they will ask for it so they can target their research and get profit generating answers. Otherwise no, they don't care and really, neither do most consumers, because when they do care, they stop buying the product. And if they care a lot, they do more than post, they act, they crusade and start a movement.
Anyone with even a shred of interest can deduce and confirm that for themselves with a evening's worth of google research, but then as a culture, we don't want to actually have to work at anything when we can just pop off about how we're that special snowflake you should pay attention to. Thats why our politicians get away with writing laws that you have to obey, but they don't. The simple truth is, you're not special, nor is your opinion, your money is. Where it winds up at is special, not you. Want to know just how special you really are? Look up the term "Acceptible Casualties", now look up "Acceptible Losses", same principle. Thats what a disgruntled forum poster is to a corperation, a acceptible loss/casualty. You are the one who has to decide whether or not they deserve your money which represents segments of your Life's worth, if the answer is no, for whatever reason real or imagined, then its up to you to act on that conclusion.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
I'd be willing to bet SOE wishes a few less people hated them....
Their last major game launch tanked in record time, they fired 1/3 of their work force, and EvE has more paying subs than all of their games put together.
And guess what?
SOE did it to themselves. Their actions over the years speak for themselves and need not be repeated here.
And yes, I bet SOE does care at this point, as their entire division is tanking.....
I'd be willing to bet SOE wishes a few less people hated them....
Their last major game launch tanked in record time, they fired 1/3 of their work force, and EvE has more paying subs than all of their games put together.
And guess what?
SOE did it to themselves. Their actions over the years speak for themselves and need not be repeated here.
And yes, I bet SOE does care at this point, as their entire division is tanking.....
I'd be willing to bet you're right. Some claim the infamous Hack of a couple months ago did that to them, but they laid off employees before it, cancelled projects they had invested money in to start development already as acceptible losses because they couldn't keep up the cash flow. Voting with wallets in full force. SOE has earned enough enmity from its potential consumer base, that they have to now tread more carefully. Frankly I'm surprised SOE is still afloat at all, as the largest majority of gamers I know, avoid their products like the plague, often with a feeling that SOE is worse than incompetent, they're malicious. I don't subscribe to the malicious part, I just view them as being greedy past their level of competence, and arrogant. Both qualities will contribute more to future downsizing as is the nature of the corperate jungle.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
I recently read that Funcom is partnering up with EA. Many of the replies showed a fair amount of hate or distrust for EA
That got me to thinking, do these Companies know why we hate/distrust them?
Do they care? Or do they just take that info and decide to run PR campaigns, essentially just smoke and mirrors with no real change.
Do they know why their games flopped?
Do you think behind closed doors, they honestly admit to themselves or one another that they pushed a game out to fast?
or admit they did any wrong?
My guess is, NO. And I will tell you why. Corporate. I've worked for some incredibly large companies, Painwebber, American Express, Canon etc and some smaller corporate companies. And what I have seen by and large is a motto of 1- cover your ass and 2-Blame someone else.
Thats my opinion at least. I think thats why these companies repeat the same mistakes, because there is no personal responsibility. No one owns up, or owns the mistake.
What do you think?
In the immortal words of John Mcenroe "You can not be serious!"
I'm 41 yrs old, why on earth would I express an emotion of hate towards a games maker?
Some ppl really do stare into their own navels for too long these days.
So, because it's a game the investment isn't real anymore? It's a product and a service that you are buying or paying for. It's not the amount, it's the principle. If you think the money isn't real enough, look at the salaries it pays. Look at the luxury they have from our payments. Maybe you need to widen your gaze.
That's pretty much it. If a person pitches a fit on a fourm but still buys the products, then the issue isn't The Man or EvilCorpCo but the person that barks at the moon while clicking Submit on their next pre-order.
This, I get so sick of seing it, poster rails on company and game the entirety of it's development, then purchases said game anyway.. It really makes no sense, like so many who claim to hate themeparks etc.. yet are day 1 players of every single one that releases.
The sad part is, you can't tell them. You can't show them. They have to figure it out for themselves. Until they do, we have to do what is right for us and let them do what is right for them. Just means skipping a lot more games in the process. You'd think with the average gamer age being what it is now that a higher percent would know better having grown up gaming.
do these Companies know why we hate/distrust them?
Do they care? Or do they just take that info and decide to run PR campaigns, essentially just smoke and mirrors with no real change.
Do they know why their games flopped?
Do you think behind closed doors, they honestly admit to themselves or one another that they pushed a game out to fast?
or admit they did any wrong?
What do you think?
These companies think money = success
Their blinders block out the fact that because people need to actually buy the game to have a fair idea of what the game plays like... so if you wish to equate money to success you really need to change the equation to something like Money = success-of-previous-titles; unless of course the game is able to continue to make money on the market long after it's release...
The result is that they are taken by surprise when they finally figure out that the market was being patient with them, because they were the masters of the market yesterday...
Unfortunately the way they run it (trying to wait as long as possible for the next release to maximise profits from each title, then rushing to get the next title done practically yesterday, all the while trying to drive up as much hype as possible) Is an imperfect compromise between what the market wants, and what the companies need
They are aware that they are releasing the games before all of the fine tuning is done... There actually are reasons for it too. If it is a PC game quite a lot of the games that get the full testing done before they get released either get tossed into beta-limbo never to be seen by the light of day again, or end up being released after significant changes to the available hardware people have in their computers, and even the best of games die quickly if they don't work with what is currently considered to be reasonably good hardware, It just takes too much time to make sure everything works right, and too much money... More profitable to send out a game that will require a revision or two before it stops acting quirky than to spend all that time and discover that when it does get sent out it has yesteryears graphics and still pukes when put into the newest computers.
They don't give themselves much reaction time, because when the money=success equation finally reveals to them that they don't have the success they thought they did they have already driven themselves into a pretty deep hole... The market is extremely tolerant, almost as if people just love the abuse (And I cannot blame anyone else for this until I understand why I keep buying zelda games... when I know that what I'm buying is totally unpredictable... and quite possibly several hours of scenery... (I've learned to hate boats and trains, batons, flutes, and the DS's Microphone))
So... The answer is yes they do care, and yes they do admit to what they did wrong(the ones that put emphasis on the blame game die in confusion), and they often know why the games flop, The games coming out too quickly is intended(For PC games)... but they won't know about the problems they are having today for another 2-3 years, give or take.
Of all the companies I boycott (a fairly long list and always growing), and of all the ones that I should boycott but don't (because if I did, I wouldn't be able to put gas in my car), companies that make entertainment products come in dead last. In fact, they aren't even on my boycott list at all.
Sorry, but no one ever died from a bug-infested game launch. No, your level 3 character who got stuck and had to /terminate does not count.
That said, if we all stopped buying thempark games that offer little or nothing in the way of freshness and creativity, maybe we'd get something better to play in a year or two. But that has nothing to do with the level of moral outrage saturating this thread.
I should be the last one to say this, but some people need to /camp and at least browse a non-game related forum once in awhile. Sunlight and fresh air optional.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Of all the companies I boycott (a fairly long list and always growing), and of all the ones that I should boycott but don't (because if I did, I wouldn't be able to put gas in my car), companies that make entertainment products come in dead last. In fact, they aren't even on my boycott list at all.
Sorry, but no one ever died from a bug-infested game launch. No, your level 3 character who got stuck and had to /terminate does not count.
That said, if we all stopped buying thempark games that offer little or nothing in the way of freshness and creativity, maybe we'd get something better to play in a year or two. But that has nothing to do with the level of moral outrage saturating this thread.
I should be the last one to say this, but some people need to /camp and at least browse a non-game related forum once in awhile. Sunlight and fresh air optional.
The companies I boycott, I boycott. Period. Their only way off my list would require a lot of change. None of them seem interested in change.
This is the only games forum I post on. I post here for the discussions and the differences of opinion. I hold true to my beliefs and I am currently sub'd to 0 MMORPGs. I planned to build a new rig, but there are no new games I am intending to play anymore. I'm waiting for change.
I get plenty of fresh air working outside, but working at night limits my sunshine.
I dont boycot companies that fast. I look at products instead. All those companies want to make money and the best way to do that is to make customers happy and to make them want to come back.
So if they release a MMO thats just crap compared to other choices then I simply wont play it and explain why on forums. Its their loss and maybe their next product will improve because of that. If not, then they dont know how to make money.
To turn it into some personal issue and feel offended by what that company does, only makes you frustrated. Its no use, not even with SOE The only way for them to deal with disgruntled customers, is come up with improvements or a better new product. Its a commercial company so they never will come up with something that doesnt make them a profit, only to make customers happy. If you keep that in mind, you can easily scrap many suggestions made by players and understand why a company will never do that.
I dont boycot companies that fast. I look at products instead. All those companies want to make money and the best way to do that is to make customers happy and to make them want to come back.
So if they release a MMO thats just crap compared to other choices then I simply wont play it and explain why on forums. Its their loss and maybe their next product will improve because of that. If not, then they dont know how to make money.
To turn it into some personal issue and feel offended by what that company does, only makes you frustrated. Its no use, not even with SOE The only way for them to deal with disgruntled customers, is come up with improvements or a better new product. Its a commercial company so they never will come up with something that doesnt make them a profit, only to make customers happy. If you keep that in mind, you can easily scrap many suggestions made by players and understand why a company will never do that.
Who said they just appeared on my list out of no where? They are on that list because of many reasons over a considerable amount of time. By time, I mean years in most cases. I'm not talking about companies making money. It's how they handle the game and the customers. It's how they sacrifice things for an extra 1% of profit. If they truly valued and maintained quality and then increased the sub, I'd most likely stay. That's not what we are talking about.
The problem often is that the companies go the easiest and cheapest route for a quick fix. Which, often comes back to bite them squarely in the behind. They'd rather try to fix something 10 times the easy way than spend the time and fix it right once. It's how they treat their customers like uninformed children. It's how they stand at their podiums talking AT us instead of to us. It's how they hide behind nonsensical statements about complexity that we couldn't possibly understand. It's about their infallable attitudes that prevent them from ever being responsible. It's about doing just enough to get by and having acceptable level of loss while maintaining a profit line. It's about them using the shortcummings of the entire industry as an excuse of why they do it too. It's about lack of innovation and competition. I could go on, but I hope you get the point.
They are not professional. They don't act professional. And like you said, they could easily explain their changes if they had good reasons for doing them. But, that goes back to us being too feeble to understand their god like status of intelligence. They have instant access to feedback in the form of forums. But, we aren't on their level and they wouldn't want to actually promote them or start discussions when we are all children to them. They throw away what other companies pay millions for in the form of focus groups and surveys.
actually this should not be about mmos and devs and some boycott.
whowver boycotts mmos because of a bad release should grow up imo.
mmo's usually are not released ion a perfect state, it's hard as hell to do such a thing. within the first year they should be fixed tho, if not, it most likely never was a bug in the first place (at least not from the devs point of view)
some randoms crying about a game does NOT make it buggy.
if you can't stand early releases, just wait a year ffs.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
No matter what anyone says... No developer cares what anyone here thinks. It doesn't matter if they are "good" or "bad".
The only thing that matters is if they make a profit... or they don't.
Tho I certainly do not encourage people to pay for something they don't like or enjoy. It actually doesn't seem to help at all to not buy the products. Why? Because now they are convinced its the subscription model and free to play is the way to go. Once that doesn't work out I'm sure they will find another reason. It would obviously have nothing to do with their design choices...
actually this should not be about mmos and devs and some boycott.
whowver boycotts mmos because of a bad release should grow up imo.
mmo's usually are not released ion a perfect state, it's hard as hell to do such a thing. within the first year they should be fixed tho, if not, it most likely never was a bug in the first place (at least not from the devs point of view)
some randoms crying about a game does NOT make it buggy.
if you can't stand early releases, just wait a year ffs.
That depends on why the release was buggy. Was it rushed to meet investor deadlines? Was it released because they know people will buy a buggy game and we've grown used to buggy releases with empty promises to fix everything later in a patch? Not in a patch? How about the next expansion where they learned so much and will make everything better in it?
I'm not naive. Bugs will and have always existed. The problem is, these companies release games and patches not tested well at all. If a customer finds a bug within the first hour, that is shown from doing simple regular actions, you didn't test it well. I'm not talking about obscure actions or special circumstances. I'm talking about easily repeatable bugs under normal conditions. And, that's what these companies do to hit financial deadlines. You also have to consider who is testing these games. The cheapest route. Players. How many players use PTRs for personal gain? They do it so they can get realm/game firsts to complete the new content coming in that patch. But, there is also the other problem. People find bugs and balance issues. People post those to the PTR forums. They go to launch anyway and people point that out. How good is that for your company image? It shows your testing procedures need changed. It shows your QA needs an overhaul. But, that would cost money. So, they just keep running with it. I've also seen things get patched in that were not tested at all. I remember a specific item in AO, where a certain notorious Dev, copied the code from one item and slightly modified it for another new item. They left the original profession requirement in it. It goes live. People point out the obviousness of this and the Dev goes ballistic. We expect professional conduct. They do not deliver.
BTW. I never said anything about just bad releases. I even said in my post about time measuring in years. That means long term play with repeated offenses by the same company. That's what earns you a place on the list.
No matter what anyone says... No developer cares what anyone here thinks. It doesn't matter if they are "good" or "bad".
The only thing that matters is if they make a profit... or they don't.
Tho I certainly do not encourage people to pay for something they don't like or enjoy. It actually doesn't seem to help at all to not buy the products. Why? Because now they are convinced its the subscription model and free to play is the way to go. Once that doesn't work out I'm sure they will find another reason. It would obviously have nothing to do with their design choices...
That's why I'm currently playing 0 of these games. I've told them why. I've asked the questions with no replies. It's a brick wall. So, I am doing what I am left with in terms of options. I don't pay them. That's all I can do. I could say, you have to stick to your convictions, but that's for everyone to choose for themselves.
The companies I boycott, I boycott. Period. Their only way off my list would require a lot of change. None of them seem interested in change.
This is the only games forum I post on. I post here for the discussions and the differences of opinion. I hold true to my beliefs and I am currently sub'd to 0 MMORPGs. I planned to build a new rig, but there are no new games I am intending to play anymore. I'm waiting for change.
I get plenty of fresh air working outside, but working at night limits my sunshine.
Working at night is tough. I did it for years and I sympathize. I never did find good solutions to lack of sunlight and I know now I should have blacked my windows to help with eye strain, but I didn't. Plus, day people never did quite get it through their heads that calling me at 2pm was like me calling them at 2am!
Anyway, I've tried a middle ground of waiting for free trials, especially on game companies known to release subpar games or to release good games in a subpar, buggy state, but lately I've also enjoyed being one of the first in the door crowd. PvP games in particular draw that crowd, because no one wants to get ganked by players who have been around an extra month or two. So I'm having a tough time with the boycott thing myself. Nor can I seem to settle in with one game for long.
I might just go your route soon and boycott the whole genre for awhile, minus free trials and any free to play that momentarily catches my eye. This is getting really old, and kind of expensive.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Going back to the topic of the thread. An obvious trend of late is Facebook and Twitter integration. Do you think this will help or hurt companies we already distrust and other taking the short road to money? Will they have some way to moderate our posts there? Will this finally shut them up about the vocal minority in regards to the sheer numbers of people on those sites or will it still reinforce that idea being that a lot won't pay to get this integration? Will they care more what we think when it garners following on a larger scale than their purposely shadowed forums? Will it matter at all? I'm not talking about just linking your chracter stats to a social networking site, but actual posts while in game and actual intregration. I just think it might come to this because there's money there and trends are pointing that way in my opinion.
Personally, I don't use any social networking sites. So, I can't really comment due to lack of experience with them. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this. Theoretical really, as we don't have any real integration yet.
Activision Blizzard takes the cake for me, but that is only because I loved Blizzard too much.
When I look neutrally at the matter. Activision Blizzard, Valve and EA are roughly on the same level. Activision Blizzard for trying to find a way in anything to make an extra dollar on it. Add extra services to keep players happy for free? No, let's call it premium customer service. One billion per game is not enough! If I don't look at EA Sports, I would say that EA has been very good for the gaming community the last couple of years. Valve is generally considered a great company and loved by all, but personally I don't like them at all. They forced Steam down our throats by making it a necessary service if we wanted to play Half Life 2. I silently obeyed and enjoyed HL2 and many other games over Steam, but I much prefer the model their competition uses. Direct2Drive being one of these. EA seems to be doing something similar with Origin though, but since it isn't out yet I will wait with commenting on that choice.
Steam in great, sure they "forced" people into using it to play but generally the Steam service is reliable and great value, they almost always have some kind of sale and run special offers like "get AAA shooter for free if you preorder the sequel"
Steam as a DRM is also not bad compared to some forms of DRM either.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
Comments
a plain and simple NO! they dont care..why would they..they are there to do a job..they do that job and get payed..they could care less
Yeah we are the problem because we voice our concerns. Give me a break.
Just because we say it and are vocal doesn't mean that other people dont feel similar. The only difference is we speak up, its in our nature.
There are plenty of people who let bad things happen to them, let people treat them badly and they dont speak up. Just because they dont speak up, doesn't mean they like it.
A typical customer might not say the shit we do, they just say FK IT and dont play anymore.
Loud, screaming and jaded? I look at it differently. We know what we like and what we want. As one poster put it, "My tastes have matured." Just because random nub gamer doesn't know what he likes, doesn't mean that he wouldnt enjoy the quality we expect from a game.
Its like having never seen or drove a car before, and the first car you get happens to be a Ferrari. What do you have to complain about? Its all you ever knew. In time you learn what you like and dont like. Same thing with games.
My first mmo was Shadowbane. I loved it. My first car was a VW Bug. I loved it too. Both had perks and I enjoyed both but in time I voted with my wallet, again.
The more time goes on, the more MMO gamers we will see, and with that will come a growing vocal majority.
Take that for what you will, your logic is flawed.
not long ago some of my students ask me if i could supervise a project of them so it could gain a more official character. they want to create a mmorpg concept (only the paper work) based on scientific considerations of psychological and sociological factors. these factors, hidden in all the features a mmorpg can have, decide if a player will bond to the game and will stick with it for a long time.
the project will begin after the summerbreak in october and i thought for a good start i try to get someone from the business - a developer, product manager or lead designer - to hold a guest lecture about the developmentprocess of a mmorpg with the possibility for the students to ask question. so i got on the phone and made some calls. it wouldn't be a problem to get a developer or representative from a company to step up talking about the business in general, or databank management, programming or any other technical thing ... but actually what psychological and sociological impact a specific feature can have on a player and what can be archived with this, no one could tell me. even if they maybe know someone who can help us lead to a dead end.
well, i didn't talk to any company, only to five from the big mmorpg publishers/development companies and some smaller companies. also germany isn't the home of great mmorpg development studios, but that noone could help me, even know a person that could be of some help makes me wonder and lead to the conclusion that mmorpgs are only build on economical evaluation.
so i have to wait for the gamescon to come and knock on some doors in the business area in hope to get some answers.
In the immortal words of John Mcenroe "You can not be serious!"
I'm 41 yrs old, why on earth would I express an emotion of hate towards a games maker?
Some ppl really do stare into their own navels for too long these days.
This, I get so sick of seing it, poster rails on company and game the entirety of it's development, then purchases said game anyway.. It really makes no sense, like so many who claim to hate themeparks etc.. yet are day 1 players of every single one that releases.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think bad companys suffer from a couple of things:
a) Money is their real passion, not the games themselves. The game is just the means to an end.
b) The decision makers are too far from the player base, probably spending too much time on board meetings and looking on graphs to be able to hear anything the players say - or judge the quality of what the players are saying.
I think that people able to "hate" gamecompany's are a small minority yet often loud.
http://investor.ea.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=574530
This is more often the case than not.
CEO's care about only one thing, the bottom line. And they will savage anything in the chain of sales to get it, because the bigger the bottom line, the bigger their bonuses. That's the nature of the beast, pure and simple. You as a customer will only matter if you either buy or don't buy the product. Well after the product is released and sales are disappointing, do they bother to look at why something they were banking on (literally) to make a certain profit flopped. If its because a key guy tasked with making it work failed, he is replaced. If the product concept will not sell because the market doesn't want it, no further such products will be made. If the product did great, they make another one and if possible, improve on it to command a larger market share. There are only two things Corps worry about, will you buy their product and are there legal issues they can be sued for. If they care about your opinion, they will ask for it so they can target their research and get profit generating answers. Otherwise no, they don't care and really, neither do most consumers, because when they do care, they stop buying the product. And if they care a lot, they do more than post, they act, they crusade and start a movement.
Anyone with even a shred of interest can deduce and confirm that for themselves with a evening's worth of google research, but then as a culture, we don't want to actually have to work at anything when we can just pop off about how we're that special snowflake you should pay attention to. Thats why our politicians get away with writing laws that you have to obey, but they don't. The simple truth is, you're not special, nor is your opinion, your money is. Where it winds up at is special, not you. Want to know just how special you really are? Look up the term "Acceptible Casualties", now look up "Acceptible Losses", same principle. Thats what a disgruntled forum poster is to a corperation, a acceptible loss/casualty. You are the one who has to decide whether or not they deserve your money which represents segments of your Life's worth, if the answer is no, for whatever reason real or imagined, then its up to you to act on that conclusion.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
I'd be willing to bet SOE wishes a few less people hated them....
Their last major game launch tanked in record time, they fired 1/3 of their work force, and EvE has more paying subs than all of their games put together.
And guess what?
SOE did it to themselves. Their actions over the years speak for themselves and need not be repeated here.
And yes, I bet SOE does care at this point, as their entire division is tanking.....
I'd be willing to bet you're right. Some claim the infamous Hack of a couple months ago did that to them, but they laid off employees before it, cancelled projects they had invested money in to start development already as acceptible losses because they couldn't keep up the cash flow. Voting with wallets in full force. SOE has earned enough enmity from its potential consumer base, that they have to now tread more carefully. Frankly I'm surprised SOE is still afloat at all, as the largest majority of gamers I know, avoid their products like the plague, often with a feeling that SOE is worse than incompetent, they're malicious. I don't subscribe to the malicious part, I just view them as being greedy past their level of competence, and arrogant. Both qualities will contribute more to future downsizing as is the nature of the corperate jungle.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
So, because it's a game the investment isn't real anymore? It's a product and a service that you are buying or paying for. It's not the amount, it's the principle. If you think the money isn't real enough, look at the salaries it pays. Look at the luxury they have from our payments. Maybe you need to widen your gaze.
The sad part is, you can't tell them. You can't show them. They have to figure it out for themselves. Until they do, we have to do what is right for us and let them do what is right for them. Just means skipping a lot more games in the process. You'd think with the average gamer age being what it is now that a higher percent would know better having grown up gaming.
These companies think money = success
Their blinders block out the fact that because people need to actually buy the game to have a fair idea of what the game plays like... so if you wish to equate money to success you really need to change the equation to something like Money = success-of-previous-titles; unless of course the game is able to continue to make money on the market long after it's release...
The result is that they are taken by surprise when they finally figure out that the market was being patient with them, because they were the masters of the market yesterday...
Unfortunately the way they run it (trying to wait as long as possible for the next release to maximise profits from each title, then rushing to get the next title done practically yesterday, all the while trying to drive up as much hype as possible) Is an imperfect compromise between what the market wants, and what the companies need
They are aware that they are releasing the games before all of the fine tuning is done... There actually are reasons for it too. If it is a PC game quite a lot of the games that get the full testing done before they get released either get tossed into beta-limbo never to be seen by the light of day again, or end up being released after significant changes to the available hardware people have in their computers, and even the best of games die quickly if they don't work with what is currently considered to be reasonably good hardware, It just takes too much time to make sure everything works right, and too much money... More profitable to send out a game that will require a revision or two before it stops acting quirky than to spend all that time and discover that when it does get sent out it has yesteryears graphics and still pukes when put into the newest computers.
They don't give themselves much reaction time, because when the money=success equation finally reveals to them that they don't have the success they thought they did they have already driven themselves into a pretty deep hole... The market is extremely tolerant, almost as if people just love the abuse (And I cannot blame anyone else for this until I understand why I keep buying zelda games... when I know that what I'm buying is totally unpredictable... and quite possibly several hours of scenery... (I've learned to hate boats and trains, batons, flutes, and the DS's Microphone))
So... The answer is yes they do care, and yes they do admit to what they did wrong(the ones that put emphasis on the blame game die in confusion), and they often know why the games flop, The games coming out too quickly is intended(For PC games)... but they won't know about the problems they are having today for another 2-3 years, give or take.
Or at least that's my two cents worth of opinion
Of all the companies I boycott (a fairly long list and always growing), and of all the ones that I should boycott but don't (because if I did, I wouldn't be able to put gas in my car), companies that make entertainment products come in dead last. In fact, they aren't even on my boycott list at all.
Sorry, but no one ever died from a bug-infested game launch. No, your level 3 character who got stuck and had to /terminate does not count.
That said, if we all stopped buying thempark games that offer little or nothing in the way of freshness and creativity, maybe we'd get something better to play in a year or two. But that has nothing to do with the level of moral outrage saturating this thread.
I should be the last one to say this, but some people need to /camp and at least browse a non-game related forum once in awhile. Sunlight and fresh air optional.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
The companies I boycott, I boycott. Period. Their only way off my list would require a lot of change. None of them seem interested in change.
This is the only games forum I post on. I post here for the discussions and the differences of opinion. I hold true to my beliefs and I am currently sub'd to 0 MMORPGs. I planned to build a new rig, but there are no new games I am intending to play anymore. I'm waiting for change.
I get plenty of fresh air working outside, but working at night limits my sunshine.
I dont boycot companies that fast. I look at products instead. All those companies want to make money and the best way to do that is to make customers happy and to make them want to come back.
So if they release a MMO thats just crap compared to other choices then I simply wont play it and explain why on forums. Its their loss and maybe their next product will improve because of that. If not, then they dont know how to make money.
To turn it into some personal issue and feel offended by what that company does, only makes you frustrated. Its no use, not even with SOE
The only way for them to deal with disgruntled customers, is come up with improvements or a better new product. Its a commercial company so they never will come up with something that doesnt make them a profit, only to make customers happy. If you keep that in mind, you can easily scrap many suggestions made by players and understand why a company will never do that.
Who said they just appeared on my list out of no where? They are on that list because of many reasons over a considerable amount of time. By time, I mean years in most cases. I'm not talking about companies making money. It's how they handle the game and the customers. It's how they sacrifice things for an extra 1% of profit. If they truly valued and maintained quality and then increased the sub, I'd most likely stay. That's not what we are talking about.
The problem often is that the companies go the easiest and cheapest route for a quick fix. Which, often comes back to bite them squarely in the behind. They'd rather try to fix something 10 times the easy way than spend the time and fix it right once. It's how they treat their customers like uninformed children. It's how they stand at their podiums talking AT us instead of to us. It's how they hide behind nonsensical statements about complexity that we couldn't possibly understand. It's about their infallable attitudes that prevent them from ever being responsible. It's about doing just enough to get by and having acceptable level of loss while maintaining a profit line. It's about them using the shortcummings of the entire industry as an excuse of why they do it too. It's about lack of innovation and competition. I could go on, but I hope you get the point.
They are not professional. They don't act professional. And like you said, they could easily explain their changes if they had good reasons for doing them. But, that goes back to us being too feeble to understand their god like status of intelligence. They have instant access to feedback in the form of forums. But, we aren't on their level and they wouldn't want to actually promote them or start discussions when we are all children to them. They throw away what other companies pay millions for in the form of focus groups and surveys.
actually this should not be about mmos and devs and some boycott.
whowver boycotts mmos because of a bad release should grow up imo.
mmo's usually are not released ion a perfect state, it's hard as hell to do such a thing. within the first year they should be fixed tho, if not, it most likely never was a bug in the first place (at least not from the devs point of view)
some randoms crying about a game does NOT make it buggy.
if you can't stand early releases, just wait a year ffs.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
No matter what anyone says... No developer cares what anyone here thinks. It doesn't matter if they are "good" or "bad".
The only thing that matters is if they make a profit... or they don't.
Tho I certainly do not encourage people to pay for something they don't like or enjoy. It actually doesn't seem to help at all to not buy the products. Why? Because now they are convinced its the subscription model and free to play is the way to go. Once that doesn't work out I'm sure they will find another reason. It would obviously have nothing to do with their design choices...
That depends on why the release was buggy. Was it rushed to meet investor deadlines? Was it released because they know people will buy a buggy game and we've grown used to buggy releases with empty promises to fix everything later in a patch? Not in a patch? How about the next expansion where they learned so much and will make everything better in it?
I'm not naive. Bugs will and have always existed. The problem is, these companies release games and patches not tested well at all. If a customer finds a bug within the first hour, that is shown from doing simple regular actions, you didn't test it well. I'm not talking about obscure actions or special circumstances. I'm talking about easily repeatable bugs under normal conditions. And, that's what these companies do to hit financial deadlines. You also have to consider who is testing these games. The cheapest route. Players. How many players use PTRs for personal gain? They do it so they can get realm/game firsts to complete the new content coming in that patch. But, there is also the other problem. People find bugs and balance issues. People post those to the PTR forums. They go to launch anyway and people point that out. How good is that for your company image? It shows your testing procedures need changed. It shows your QA needs an overhaul. But, that would cost money. So, they just keep running with it. I've also seen things get patched in that were not tested at all. I remember a specific item in AO, where a certain notorious Dev, copied the code from one item and slightly modified it for another new item. They left the original profession requirement in it. It goes live. People point out the obviousness of this and the Dev goes ballistic. We expect professional conduct. They do not deliver.
BTW. I never said anything about just bad releases. I even said in my post about time measuring in years. That means long term play with repeated offenses by the same company. That's what earns you a place on the list.
That's why I'm currently playing 0 of these games. I've told them why. I've asked the questions with no replies. It's a brick wall. So, I am doing what I am left with in terms of options. I don't pay them. That's all I can do. I could say, you have to stick to your convictions, but that's for everyone to choose for themselves.
"Stare at the sun. What do you see?"
Working at night is tough. I did it for years and I sympathize. I never did find good solutions to lack of sunlight and I know now I should have blacked my windows to help with eye strain, but I didn't. Plus, day people never did quite get it through their heads that calling me at 2pm was like me calling them at 2am!
Anyway, I've tried a middle ground of waiting for free trials, especially on game companies known to release subpar games or to release good games in a subpar, buggy state, but lately I've also enjoyed being one of the first in the door crowd. PvP games in particular draw that crowd, because no one wants to get ganked by players who have been around an extra month or two. So I'm having a tough time with the boycott thing myself. Nor can I seem to settle in with one game for long.
I might just go your route soon and boycott the whole genre for awhile, minus free trials and any free to play that momentarily catches my eye. This is getting really old, and kind of expensive.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Going back to the topic of the thread. An obvious trend of late is Facebook and Twitter integration. Do you think this will help or hurt companies we already distrust and other taking the short road to money? Will they have some way to moderate our posts there? Will this finally shut them up about the vocal minority in regards to the sheer numbers of people on those sites or will it still reinforce that idea being that a lot won't pay to get this integration? Will they care more what we think when it garners following on a larger scale than their purposely shadowed forums? Will it matter at all? I'm not talking about just linking your chracter stats to a social networking site, but actual posts while in game and actual intregration. I just think it might come to this because there's money there and trends are pointing that way in my opinion.
Personally, I don't use any social networking sites. So, I can't really comment due to lack of experience with them. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this. Theoretical really, as we don't have any real integration yet.
Activision Blizzard takes the cake for me, but that is only because I loved Blizzard too much.
When I look neutrally at the matter. Activision Blizzard, Valve and EA are roughly on the same level. Activision Blizzard for trying to find a way in anything to make an extra dollar on it. Add extra services to keep players happy for free? No, let's call it premium customer service. One billion per game is not enough! If I don't look at EA Sports, I would say that EA has been very good for the gaming community the last couple of years. Valve is generally considered a great company and loved by all, but personally I don't like them at all. They forced Steam down our throats by making it a necessary service if we wanted to play Half Life 2. I silently obeyed and enjoyed HL2 and many other games over Steam, but I much prefer the model their competition uses. Direct2Drive being one of these. EA seems to be doing something similar with Origin though, but since it isn't out yet I will wait with commenting on that choice.
Sources:
http://www.destructoid.com/15-reasons-why-ea-is-pure-evil-66852.phtml
http://www.psuni.com/electronic-arts-no-longer-the-evil-empire-of-gaming-so-who-is-809/
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2010/08/06/feature-evil-things-activision-hasn-t-done-yet.aspx
Steam in great, sure they "forced" people into using it to play but generally the Steam service is reliable and great value, they almost always have some kind of sale and run special offers like "get AAA shooter for free if you preorder the sequel"
Steam as a DRM is also not bad compared to some forms of DRM either.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.