I'm not the OP, but I know what sort of situation he's talking about. And it's not just customer service.
If you go to a grocery store because they sell the items you like, but they decide to stop carrying 19 of the 20 items you pick up weekly. I have a feeling you would stop shopping there. Now say that this store makes a habit of changing its stock like this, and you want to warn people about it. YOU'RE A GOOD PERSON.
If you are playing a game and enjoying it, and suddenly the game has been fundamentally changed, removing your playstyle entirely in favor of Johnny Awesome's playstyle, are you going to continue to fund that company? Now say that this company makes a habit of completely changing the fundamentals and you want to warn people about it. God you're such a loser, you have an issue, get over it nerd.
See what I'm saying? Apples to apples.
Pretty much. And I can see people getting a negative reaction if they go about warning folks in an obnoxious manner. But, if they offer a well worded criticism of the product there are still those who launch into labels. They are automatically assumed to be foaming at the mouth, screaming at their monitor as they type their "venom filled" hate responces. When in fact their blood presuure is probably closer to normal that those leaping to label them liars.
It is all about the forum PvP to some of the posters. I think that is one of the explanations that is missing from the responses. Some people just enjoy arguing. About anything.
There's a difference ofc between "warning" the general public about a gaming company that you feel have not lived up to your standards, and coming into every single god damn thread on games made by this company only to bash it.
If I'm not happy with a company, I'll speak my mind once and then not have anything to do with this company. At all. If asked, I'll reply truthfully, but thats it. But standard practice on this site and many others is to go on some kind of crusade, derail threads with constant offtopic bashing of a company that ppl sometimes feel somehow owe's them something. Let it go.
This is not aimed at any one person. And yes ofc there are threads that bring constructive critisism. These threads are by far the minority and I can understand why ppl are defensive of games they like.
edit: to use the example of the OP. If I went to IKEA and wasnt happy, I'd tell my friends and family. If I was the kind of person to hang out on furniture forums I'd perhaps make one thread about it. I would certainly not go into every thread that says IKEA to WARN ppl how much they suck, and search the internet for similar forums just to bash IKEA 24/7. If that was the case then yes dammit I'd have ISSUES.
To come back to a company that has lost you one way or another is idiotic. For me as a consumer to come back to something that drove me away, there better have been major changes for me to even entertain the thought of coming back, i.e. spending precious time and hard earned money on buffoons that I once despised.
The Fanbois can proclaim their blind, joyous chorus all they want.
Then there's us that will point out problems and bad practices from certain companies.
For me, what drives me away is what developers do to the game's direction (namely one that I'm active on) and how they handle their customers. I've walked away from bad games, or just found it to not be my style and left it at that. But the companies that drastically change a game away from the intial reasons why I signed up in the first place, or how badly they treat customers and carry out their business? I have major problems with that.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Tunnel Vision. They had a great or good experience and they can't see how everyone else didn't have the same experience so it must have been something wrong with you or what you expected was non-realistic of the game (and by extension the creators).
At least, that's how I can see some people refusing to believe others not giving more chances.
I'm going to do a switch around, and see if that's sufficient to get the point across that I'm trying to make:
Tunnel Vision. They had a bad or negative experience and they can't see how everyone else didn't have the same experience so it must have been something wrong with you or what you expected was too positive of the game (and by extension the creators).
At least, that's how I can see some people refusing to believe others being pragmatic or not burning bridges forever.
Everyone always reasons from his own point of view, very few people are capable or willing to be able to see and comprehend the complete opposite point of view, or even any viewpoint that isn't theirs.
@OP: apparently you had some people criticizing you or coming up with the argument of your title.
Seems to me that everyone is entitled to do whatever the hell they want. If you had a bad experience with a Peking duck in a Chinese restaurant, then it's entirely up to you if you decide never to eat at a Chinese restaurant again. The same for a McDonald's or a Pizza Hut or Starbucks, got treated badly? Feel free to never visit a McDonald's or a Pizza Hut or a Starbucks ever again in your life. Same for other things: hey, got a bad experience with Microsoft, or Apple customer service? If you never want to give Microsoft or Apple ever a chance again and avoid any Microsoft product or Apple product from then onwards, feel free to do that, for your whole life if that's what you want.
Same for others: if they decide to shrug and eat at another Chinese restaurant or visit a Starbucks or keep using Microsoft or Apple products where they feel like it, they're entitled to do the same.
And this goes further: people who don't believe in second chances are entitled to be vocal about their opinion and criticize those that do believe in second and third chances, and vice versa, those that do believe in second chances are entitled to be vocal about their opinion and shake their head and criticize those that don't all they like.
And those who don't believe in second chances are entitled again to be vocal about them being criticized about it, while vice versa... enfin, long story short: you're entitled to do whatever the hell you want.
Expect to be criticized for it if you're vocal about it, feel free to criticize back at others disagreeing with your stance, and so on.
Everybody should do with what they're most comfortable with themselves, just don't expect that everyone shares the same viewpoint or actions, or automatically conclude that your own stance and path of action is right for everyone, or that if people follow another path of action than your own, that they're automatically wrong. That applies to all sides.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Oh, and to translate it in concrete examples and add a personal (subjective) viewpoint: let's take for example Funcom and AoC.
I had a great time in AoC. I'm pretty sure that others were hugely disappointed, and walk around with a bitter grudge for years, never trusting FC again, some even bitterly hating that company. It's sad for them, and I feel sorry for them, but why should I care? * I * didn't have that experience, I had fun and I didn't have any unrealistic expectations beforehand, so I don't see why I should distrust that company any more than my usual wariness against companies, just because others got disappointed. To each their own opinion, live and let live, and so on.
If those people keep hammering and blabbing on about how evil FC is and campaign ranting about it every time when a discussion about AoC or TSW emerges, however, that's when those people start to remind me of those Jesus freaks that I met that kept shouting about how 'the end is near' day in day out where you did your shopping. After a while they became annoying until you just filter them out. I certainly don't share their viewpoints and their constant in-your-face ramblings just got irritating. Even if I would believe that planet earth or humankind is doomed for other reasons than theirs, their crusade just isn't mine.
Regarding game companies, I make up my own mind, I don't need anyone else for that: if I'm willing to give a company a 2nd or 3rd chance, then that's my choice and decision to make. Besides, there are no guarantuees in the MMO market, why would people even give good companies by default a second chance even after their first was a success, haven't we learnt enough about Garriot's, McQuaid's, EQ2's, WAR's failure and so on, to realise that we should be wary and pragmatic no matter what a company's trackrecord is?
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
This mindset has been boggling me for the longest time.
Almost all of us at one time or another have encoutered a concumer experience where we weren't exactly happy with the outcome. Indded, we were so unhappy with it that we decided not to conduct business with that restaurant, clothing store, hardware shop or whatever type of business it was, again. Which is absolutely normal and okay, right?
So why is it different when someone comes to the same decision about a game maker? Are they not a business as well? Are they not in the position of being held to a certain standard of quality in product? It seems as though some believe that these companies can just put out whatever they want in any shape they want and that all of us gamers are obligated to "just give it a try". Especialy if that company has gotten the game experience you wanted in the first place right (or were heading down the road to it) and then, to the protests of many, they change course and move the game a different direction.
People will jump to the head of the line to say that the company has the right to do what it wants with their game. And I agree. But why do I not have the right to choose not to play any of their games from that point on without being labeled as having an "issue". Well, I guess, yes I do have an issue. Bad customer service on the part of the company.
And what happens if we don't, especially if we've had previous experience with a company and decide that we'd rather not play their games? We're labeled as having something mentally wrong or extremists. We're viewed upon as having something "wrong with us" if we are apathetic to something negative happening to said game companies.
except that - A group of friends and myself used to go to a restaurant. Two of those friends felt they had a bad experience there and refused to go anymore. In effect they stopped me from going because it was their presence not the Restaurant that I was going out for. Sure the Restaurant was nice and had the best chicken wings in the city, my opinion, but now they were being boycotted. The experience that led to this was more of the fault of my friends, they exacerbated a situation and ended up having a verbal fight with the owner, and said fight didn't include me.
Whenever I wanted to go to the restaurant I was told "we don't go there anymore". So OP, situations like that happen outside the gaming world.
To me its comparing apples and oranges, comparing "brick and mortar" business with game companies. If you have a bad experiance at Acme Hardware...you won't go back as it will always be Acme hardware.
On the other hand, There is no guarantee that SOE's next game will suck because the last one did. As it will be a differnent game, it will have differnent people working on it. The only thing it has in common with the last game is the SOE money.
Thats why I can go back and take a look at a game company when they have a new game out.
I'll add the example of electronic gadgets. Consider the wars between the supporters of Apple, PC and Linux computers, phones and other such gadgets. These people have very strong brand loyalty. I think the same can be said of certain cars, motorcycles and other goods.
Why do people do this? Because many people invest of their emotional energies into things and ideas. They identify personally with those things and ideas. World of Warcraft isn't just a game to them, it's something far more personal. Anyone who criticizes it is criticising them, and they will react appropriately. Their iPhone isn't just a cell phone, it's something more personal. Talking about problems with the iPhone will immediately produce push-back. These are people who identify with the product, its manufacturer and the community of people who use it. They can be fiercely loyal.
For people who don't go through this process, World of Warcraft is just a game and the iPhone is just a phone. You can be as critical as you like about them and people will look at your criticisms objectively. That or they'll just shrug because they don't really care.
So I figure it's all about personally identifying wth products. I think that can be particularly problematic with MMORPGs because you are encouraged to identify with your character and the environment in which it operates. The younger the player, the more seductive that effect likely is.
Oh, and to translate it in concrete examples and add a personal (subjective) viewpoint: let's take for example Funcom and AoC.
I had a great time in AoC. I'm pretty sure that others were hugely disappointed, and walk around with a bitter grudge for years, never trusting FC again, some even bitterly hating that company. It's sad for them, and I feel sorry for them, but why should I care? * I * didn't have that experience, I had fun and I didn't have any unrealistic expectations beforehand, so I don't see why I should distrust that company any more than my usual wariness against companies, just because others got disappointed. To each their own opinion, live and let live, and so on.
If those people keep hammering and blabbing on about how evil FC is and campaign ranting about it every time when a discussion about AoC or TSW emerges, however, that's when those people start to remind me of those Jesus freaks that I met that kept shouting about how 'the end is near' day in day out where you did your shopping. After a while they became annoying until you just filter them out. I certainly don't share their viewpoints and their constant in-your-face ramblings just got irritating. Even if I would believe that planet earth or humankind is doomed for other reasons than theirs, their crusade just isn't mine.
Regarding game companies, I make up my own mind, I don't need anyone else for that: if I'm willing to give a company a 2nd or 3rd chance, then that's my choice and decision to make. Besides, there are no guarantuees in the MMO market, why would people even give good companies by default a second chance even after their first was a success, haven't we learnt enough about Garriot's, McQuaid's, EQ2's, WAR's failure and so on, to realise that we should be wary and pragmatic no matter what a company's trackrecord is?
imo.
/Hammer_It_In
Still doesn't change the fact that Funcom sucks and their last major foray in the MMORPG genre resulted in AoC: Even after about 3 years, one of the most notable failures in the genre's history. It was amazing how an MMORPG that started so strong with initial players lost most of them in less than 3 months.
Doesn't do much for Funcom's reputation among players.
Personally, I don't hate Funcom (I hate SOE, and I can really go on with those jerks). I actually feel bad for their incompetence. Their art department is great*, and marketing was outstanding (pegging pre-release hype to insane levels), but whoever brought about AoC itself? Well, not quite so, to put it nicely.
(* A bunch of artists from China, IIRC from the Collector's Edition art book)
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Oh, and to translate it in concrete examples and add a personal (subjective) viewpoint: let's take for example Funcom and AoC.
I had a great time in AoC. I'm pretty sure that others were hugely disappointed, and walk around with a bitter grudge for years, never trusting FC again, some even bitterly hating that company. It's sad for them, and I feel sorry for them, but why should I care? * I * didn't have that experience, I had fun and I didn't have any unrealistic expectations beforehand, so I don't see why I should distrust that company any more than my usual wariness against companies, just because others got disappointed. To each their own opinion, live and let live, and so on.
If those people keep hammering and blabbing on about how evil FC is and campaign ranting about it every time when a discussion about AoC or TSW emerges, however, that's when those people start to remind me of those Jesus freaks that I met that kept shouting about how 'the end is near' day in day out where you did your shopping. After a while they became annoying until you just filter them out. I certainly don't share their viewpoints and their constant in-your-face ramblings just got irritating. Even if I would believe that planet earth or humankind is doomed for other reasons than theirs, their crusade just isn't mine.
Regarding game companies, I make up my own mind, I don't need anyone else for that: if I'm willing to give a company a 2nd or 3rd chance, then that's my choice and decision to make. Besides, there are no guarantuees in the MMO market, why would people even give good companies by default a second chance even after their first was a success, haven't we learnt enough about Garriot's, McQuaid's, EQ2's, WAR's failure and so on, to realise that we should be wary and pragmatic no matter what a company's trackrecord is?
imo.
/Hammer_It_In
Still doesn't change the fact that Funcom sucks and their last major foray in the MMORPG genre resulted in AoC: Even after about 3 years, one of the most notable failures in the genre's history. It was amazing how an MMORPG that started so strong with initial players lost most of them in less than 3 months.
Doesn't do much for Funcom's reputation among players.
Personally, I don't hate Funcom (I hate SOE, and I can really go on with those jerks). I actually feel bad for their incompetence. Their art department is great*, and marketing was outstanding (pegging pre-release hype to insane levels), but whoever brought about AoC itself? Well, not quite so, to put it nicely.
(* A bunch of artists from China, IIRC from the Collector's Edition art book)
This in fact is not true. It is in fact your opinion (and mine as well).
My opinion is who cares what everyone else thinks? Does it really matter?
Also, everybody deserves a second chance, even games/companies you hate. Sometimes things change. It's up to you whether you want to do that, though.
I don't give games second chances. Heck, I have given girlfriends second chances twice, and I won't do that again. Sorry, you have one shot at winning in this market.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Oh, and to translate it in concrete examples and add a personal (subjective) viewpoint: let's take for example Funcom and AoC.
I had a great time in AoC. I'm pretty sure that others were hugely disappointed, and walk around with a bitter grudge for years, never trusting FC again, some even bitterly hating that company. It's sad for them, and I feel sorry for them, but why should I care? * I * didn't have that experience, I had fun and I didn't have any unrealistic expectations beforehand, so I don't see why I should distrust that company any more than my usual wariness against companies, just because others got disappointed. To each their own opinion, live and let live, and so on.
If those people keep hammering and blabbing on about how evil FC is and campaign ranting about it every time when a discussion about AoC or TSW emerges, however, that's when those people start to remind me of those Jesus freaks that I met that kept shouting about how 'the end is near' day in day out where you did your shopping. After a while they became annoying until you just filter them out. I certainly don't share their viewpoints and their constant in-your-face ramblings just got irritating. Even if I would believe that planet earth or humankind is doomed for other reasons than theirs, their crusade just isn't mine.
Regarding game companies, I make up my own mind, I don't need anyone else for that: if I'm willing to give a company a 2nd or 3rd chance, then that's my choice and decision to make. Besides, there are no guarantuees in the MMO market, why would people even give good companies by default a second chance even after their first was a success, haven't we learnt enough about Garriot's, McQuaid's, EQ2's, WAR's failure and so on, to realise that we should be wary and pragmatic no matter what a company's trackrecord is?
imo.
Well, I can see that. There is a differences. I won't put myself in certain situations in life again because they didn't payoff. That doesn't mean I will rant about it every chance I get.
When I see those people who simply can't move on from AOC or NGE, at some point, I see a person who won't grow up. Not because they hate AOC or NGE, but due to constantly repeating their rants. They get trapped in the victum mentality and can't see how they are hurting themselves.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If you don't want to give a developer a second chance then don't. It is that simple. If you received poor service from a company then it stands to reason that you won't be using the services of the company in question. Of course, you could always give it a second chance but that's your personal choice.
However, if they blow it the second time too then you are an idiot if you come back! Second chance is okay but third chance is just stupid.
Originally posted by Redemp
Interesting thread ...
*You is used in the hypothetical for the duration of this post *
If you've given up on a company, then there is no reason for you to comment in threads related to that company or products they have released. You're done with the company .. you've spoken with your wallet, theres no reason to skim threads at that point.
When you do ... I and others have ample legitimacy in claiming you have an issue. Clearly if you were done with the company as previously stated .. you would have no further reason to comment on it at all.
/shrug .... I'm not sure why you would exspect anything less.
This is not how things work. Unsatisfied customers complain a lot about companies they don't like, a lot more so than happy customers praising how amazing a company is. Some customers will even go out of their way to share their bad experience with a particular company. I personally do that as well depending on how bad the experience was. For example, I will always tell my friends if airlines come up how much I hate airline x (no names :P). I honestly hate that company with every fibre of my being :P for what they did about 1.5 year ago. Ok maybe not that much but I will definitely express my dissatisfaction with that company if someone asks me
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
If you quit a game over billing or customer service issues.. its probably not worth going back to the game unless they have made a drastic improvement to their system.
I thought i knew bad customer service until i tried ffxi for instance lol... I've only had to deal with them a couple times though thankfully but I've read horror stories.
If you want to look at bad customer service look into that games service. The game is solid.. service is horrible (i think its something cultural with the japanese not liking non-japanese).
If you actually have a real problem with the game.. get stuck in a movie video whenever you log on or something like that.. most of the time your only choices are to get a different computer (one that has everything installed and 20 hour down load / patch because ffxi limits its bandwitdth to 56k), quit, or start a new character.
Their service is a stonewall at its finest polished after years of practice.. they utilize pre scripted english statements to handle customers and always refer you to a different website or in game chat which refers you back in a endless circle.. thats just one example lol.
English GM's aren't allowed to do anything in the game w/o contacting the headquarters in japan (which takes over a week for translation of stuff) and usually by then w/e you were worried about is out of the game logs.
I don't mean to rag on but you get the idea.. I loved the game.. just hated some of the things I've seen my friends go through.
Which brings me to the second part of second chances... Games can change over time.. in fact they change a lot sometimes... ffxi has changed so much in the past year that anybody who has played the game in the past 7 years before 2011 won't even recognize it anymore.
If you quit a game because you were bored or didn't like certain game play elements.. its worth another shot at a game... I know i left ffxi because I didn't care for the direction the games story / trends were going...
but now I'm free to retry other games I might not have like in the past on release... I'm sure at least a few have improved for the better.
Sometimes games change so much that you might want to give it a new shot just because it isn't the same game.
This mindset has been boggling me for the longest time.
Almost all of us at one time or another have encoutered a concumer experience where we weren't exactly happy with the outcome. Indded, we were so unhappy with it that we decided not to conduct business with that restaurant, clothing store, hardware shop or whatever type of business it was, again. Which is absolutely normal and okay, right?
So why is it different when someone comes to the same decision about a game maker? Are they not a business as well? Are they not in the position of being held to a certain standard of quality in product? It seems as though some believe that these companies can just put out whatever they want in any shape they want and that all of us gamers are obligated to "just give it a try". Especialy if that company has gotten the game experience you wanted in the first place right (or were heading down the road to it) and then, to the protests of many, they change course and move the game a different direction.
People will jump to the head of the line to say that the company has the right to do what it wants with their game. And I agree. But why do I not have the right to choose not to play any of their games from that point on without being labeled as having an "issue". Well, I guess, yes I do have an issue. Bad customer service on the part of the company.
And what happens if we don't, especially if we've had previous experience with a company and decide that we'd rather not play their games? We're labeled as having something mentally wrong or extremists. We're viewed upon as having something "wrong with us" if we are apathetic to something negative happening to said game companies.
Interesting thread ...
*You is used in the hypothetical for the duration of this post *
If you've given up on a company, then there is no reason for you to comment in threads related to that company or products they have released. You're done with the company .. you've spoken with your wallet, theres no reason to skim threads at that point.
When you do ... I and others have ample legitimacy in claiming you have an issue. Clearly if you were done with the company as previously stated .. you would have no further reason to comment on it at all.
/shrug .... I'm not sure why you would exspect anything less.
Yeah I have an issue. I dont like exploiters. Just like I dont like Gold Digger women, I hate companies that exploit. DDO is an example of somebody trying to scam the consumers. They put a Sub on a game thats not even a MMO, yet wondered why it flopped? yeah right,,, that was all planned to see what they can milk off the foolish people. I hate that
As companies fail, they get experience in how not to fail.
I'm curious as to why people forget this and are uneager to give anyone a second chance.
Currently Watching: TSW. << Very Eager for a Beta invite. Have experience with Beta Testing. Not personally a big fan of raiding or current pve endgame mmo philosophy. Nothing wrong with it, I just sort of burnt out on it. Hardcore raider in wow from Launch to.. about 7 months ago. Currently Playing: Champions Online.
As companies fail, they get experience in how not to fail.
I'm curious as to why people forget this and are uneager to give anyone a second chance.
Example:
Company A wants to sell you a shiny new radio that runs on Company A's patented XYZ battery. You buy it because it sounds like a great deal. The next week you read that Company A is no longer going to produce XYZ batteries (and neither is anyone else on the planet) and is switching to ABC battery production. ABC batteries won't work with your radio.
Company A also knew that they were going to stop producing XYZ battery the following week and that you would get limited use out of your XYZ only shiny radio. They, however, elected not to tell you. Later on you find this out.
Would you shop with them again?
To me second(+) chances are given to someone/group that unknowingly made and error and that makes an effort to express to you that they are genuinely sorry for making such error. Someone who does something like the above example, in my view, is owed/guaranteed a second chance just because a different in-house team is working on a different product. It's still the same overall corporation and still, for all intents and purposes, fosters the same corporate mentality.
I get that companies may get experience on how not to fail but just like every other instance that generates that common sense there is no guarantee they will interpret that experience and use it in such fashion.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Of course most people demand second chances for games where I never gave a first chance, for IMHO good reasons, such as Age of Conan. No I like Conan. But I like it for great storytelling. I dont need to play a shooter with blood and breasts.
Comments
It is all about the forum PvP to some of the posters. I think that is one of the explanations that is missing from the responses. Some people just enjoy arguing. About anything.
There's a difference ofc between "warning" the general public about a gaming company that you feel have not lived up to your standards, and coming into every single god damn thread on games made by this company only to bash it.
If I'm not happy with a company, I'll speak my mind once and then not have anything to do with this company. At all. If asked, I'll reply truthfully, but thats it. But standard practice on this site and many others is to go on some kind of crusade, derail threads with constant offtopic bashing of a company that ppl sometimes feel somehow owe's them something. Let it go.
This is not aimed at any one person. And yes ofc there are threads that bring constructive critisism. These threads are by far the minority and I can understand why ppl are defensive of games they like.
edit: to use the example of the OP. If I went to IKEA and wasnt happy, I'd tell my friends and family. If I was the kind of person to hang out on furniture forums I'd perhaps make one thread about it. I would certainly not go into every thread that says IKEA to WARN ppl how much they suck, and search the internet for similar forums just to bash IKEA 24/7. If that was the case then yes dammit I'd have ISSUES.
To come back to a company that has lost you one way or another is idiotic. For me as a consumer to come back to something that drove me away, there better have been major changes for me to even entertain the thought of coming back, i.e. spending precious time and hard earned money on buffoons that I once despised.
The Fanbois can proclaim their blind, joyous chorus all they want.
Then there's us that will point out problems and bad practices from certain companies.
For me, what drives me away is what developers do to the game's direction (namely one that I'm active on) and how they handle their customers. I've walked away from bad games, or just found it to not be my style and left it at that. But the companies that drastically change a game away from the intial reasons why I signed up in the first place, or how badly they treat customers and carry out their business? I have major problems with that.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I'm going to do a switch around, and see if that's sufficient to get the point across that I'm trying to make:
Tunnel Vision. They had a bad or negative experience and they can't see how everyone else didn't have the same experience so it must have been something wrong with you or what you expected was too positive of the game (and by extension the creators).
At least, that's how I can see some people refusing to believe others being pragmatic or not burning bridges forever.
Everyone always reasons from his own point of view, very few people are capable or willing to be able to see and comprehend the complete opposite point of view, or even any viewpoint that isn't theirs.
@OP: apparently you had some people criticizing you or coming up with the argument of your title.
Seems to me that everyone is entitled to do whatever the hell they want. If you had a bad experience with a Peking duck in a Chinese restaurant, then it's entirely up to you if you decide never to eat at a Chinese restaurant again. The same for a McDonald's or a Pizza Hut or Starbucks, got treated badly? Feel free to never visit a McDonald's or a Pizza Hut or a Starbucks ever again in your life. Same for other things: hey, got a bad experience with Microsoft, or Apple customer service? If you never want to give Microsoft or Apple ever a chance again and avoid any Microsoft product or Apple product from then onwards, feel free to do that, for your whole life if that's what you want.
Same for others: if they decide to shrug and eat at another Chinese restaurant or visit a Starbucks or keep using Microsoft or Apple products where they feel like it, they're entitled to do the same.
And this goes further: people who don't believe in second chances are entitled to be vocal about their opinion and criticize those that do believe in second and third chances, and vice versa, those that do believe in second chances are entitled to be vocal about their opinion and shake their head and criticize those that don't all they like.
And those who don't believe in second chances are entitled again to be vocal about them being criticized about it, while vice versa... enfin, long story short: you're entitled to do whatever the hell you want.
Expect to be criticized for it if you're vocal about it, feel free to criticize back at others disagreeing with your stance, and so on.
Everybody should do with what they're most comfortable with themselves, just don't expect that everyone shares the same viewpoint or actions, or automatically conclude that your own stance and path of action is right for everyone, or that if people follow another path of action than your own, that they're automatically wrong. That applies to all sides.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Oh, and to translate it in concrete examples and add a personal (subjective) viewpoint: let's take for example Funcom and AoC.
I had a great time in AoC. I'm pretty sure that others were hugely disappointed, and walk around with a bitter grudge for years, never trusting FC again, some even bitterly hating that company. It's sad for them, and I feel sorry for them, but why should I care? * I * didn't have that experience, I had fun and I didn't have any unrealistic expectations beforehand, so I don't see why I should distrust that company any more than my usual wariness against companies, just because others got disappointed. To each their own opinion, live and let live, and so on.
If those people keep hammering and blabbing on about how evil FC is and campaign ranting about it every time when a discussion about AoC or TSW emerges, however, that's when those people start to remind me of those Jesus freaks that I met that kept shouting about how 'the end is near' day in day out where you did your shopping. After a while they became annoying until you just filter them out. I certainly don't share their viewpoints and their constant in-your-face ramblings just got irritating. Even if I would believe that planet earth or humankind is doomed for other reasons than theirs, their crusade just isn't mine.
Regarding game companies, I make up my own mind, I don't need anyone else for that: if I'm willing to give a company a 2nd or 3rd chance, then that's my choice and decision to make. Besides, there are no guarantuees in the MMO market, why would people even give good companies by default a second chance even after their first was a success, haven't we learnt enough about Garriot's, McQuaid's, EQ2's, WAR's failure and so on, to realise that we should be wary and pragmatic no matter what a company's trackrecord is?
imo.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
except that - A group of friends and myself used to go to a restaurant. Two of those friends felt they had a bad experience there and refused to go anymore. In effect they stopped me from going because it was their presence not the Restaurant that I was going out for. Sure the Restaurant was nice and had the best chicken wings in the city, my opinion, but now they were being boycotted. The experience that led to this was more of the fault of my friends, they exacerbated a situation and ended up having a verbal fight with the owner, and said fight didn't include me.
Whenever I wanted to go to the restaurant I was told "we don't go there anymore". So OP, situations like that happen outside the gaming world.
Currently bored with MMO's.
To me its comparing apples and oranges, comparing "brick and mortar" business with game companies. If you have a bad experiance at Acme Hardware...you won't go back as it will always be Acme hardware.
On the other hand, There is no guarantee that SOE's next game will suck because the last one did. As it will be a differnent game, it will have differnent people working on it. The only thing it has in common with the last game is the SOE money.
Thats why I can go back and take a look at a game company when they have a new game out.
Haradek Shadowstalker
EQ,EQII,SWG,AO,DAOC,Planetside,COH,WOW
I'll add the example of electronic gadgets. Consider the wars between the supporters of Apple, PC and Linux computers, phones and other such gadgets. These people have very strong brand loyalty. I think the same can be said of certain cars, motorcycles and other goods.
Why do people do this? Because many people invest of their emotional energies into things and ideas. They identify personally with those things and ideas. World of Warcraft isn't just a game to them, it's something far more personal. Anyone who criticizes it is criticising them, and they will react appropriately. Their iPhone isn't just a cell phone, it's something more personal. Talking about problems with the iPhone will immediately produce push-back. These are people who identify with the product, its manufacturer and the community of people who use it. They can be fiercely loyal.
For people who don't go through this process, World of Warcraft is just a game and the iPhone is just a phone. You can be as critical as you like about them and people will look at your criticisms objectively. That or they'll just shrug because they don't really care.
So I figure it's all about personally identifying wth products. I think that can be particularly problematic with MMORPGs because you are encouraged to identify with your character and the environment in which it operates. The younger the player, the more seductive that effect likely is.
/Hammer_It_In
Still doesn't change the fact that Funcom sucks and their last major foray in the MMORPG genre resulted in AoC: Even after about 3 years, one of the most notable failures in the genre's history. It was amazing how an MMORPG that started so strong with initial players lost most of them in less than 3 months.
Doesn't do much for Funcom's reputation among players.
Personally, I don't hate Funcom (I hate SOE, and I can really go on with those jerks). I actually feel bad for their incompetence. Their art department is great*, and marketing was outstanding (pegging pre-release hype to insane levels), but whoever brought about AoC itself? Well, not quite so, to put it nicely.
(* A bunch of artists from China, IIRC from the Collector's Edition art book)
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
It's not my fault.
People kept saying EVE wasn't an empty shell of a game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This in fact is not true. It is in fact your opinion (and mine as well).
I don't give games second chances. Heck, I have given girlfriends second chances twice, and I won't do that again. Sorry, you have one shot at winning in this market.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Well, I can see that. There is a differences. I won't put myself in certain situations in life again because they didn't payoff. That doesn't mean I will rant about it every chance I get.
When I see those people who simply can't move on from AOC or NGE, at some point, I see a person who won't grow up. Not because they hate AOC or NGE, but due to constantly repeating their rants. They get trapped in the victum mentality and can't see how they are hurting themselves.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If you don't want to give a developer a second chance then don't. It is that simple. If you received poor service from a company then it stands to reason that you won't be using the services of the company in question. Of course, you could always give it a second chance but that's your personal choice.
However, if they blow it the second time too then you are an idiot if you come back! Second chance is okay but third chance is just stupid.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
If you quit a game over billing or customer service issues.. its probably not worth going back to the game unless they have made a drastic improvement to their system.
I thought i knew bad customer service until i tried ffxi for instance lol... I've only had to deal with them a couple times though thankfully but I've read horror stories.
If you want to look at bad customer service look into that games service. The game is solid.. service is horrible (i think its something cultural with the japanese not liking non-japanese).
If you actually have a real problem with the game.. get stuck in a movie video whenever you log on or something like that.. most of the time your only choices are to get a different computer (one that has everything installed and 20 hour down load / patch because ffxi limits its bandwitdth to 56k), quit, or start a new character.
Their service is a stonewall at its finest polished after years of practice.. they utilize pre scripted english statements to handle customers and always refer you to a different website or in game chat which refers you back in a endless circle.. thats just one example lol.
English GM's aren't allowed to do anything in the game w/o contacting the headquarters in japan (which takes over a week for translation of stuff) and usually by then w/e you were worried about is out of the game logs.
I don't mean to rag on but you get the idea.. I loved the game.. just hated some of the things I've seen my friends go through.
Which brings me to the second part of second chances... Games can change over time.. in fact they change a lot sometimes... ffxi has changed so much in the past year that anybody who has played the game in the past 7 years before 2011 won't even recognize it anymore.
If you quit a game because you were bored or didn't like certain game play elements.. its worth another shot at a game... I know i left ffxi because I didn't care for the direction the games story / trends were going...
but now I'm free to retry other games I might not have like in the past on release... I'm sure at least a few have improved for the better.
Sometimes games change so much that you might want to give it a new shot just because it isn't the same game.
Yeah I have an issue. I dont like exploiters. Just like I dont like Gold Digger women, I hate companies that exploit. DDO is an example of somebody trying to scam the consumers. They put a Sub on a game thats not even a MMO, yet wondered why it flopped? yeah right,,, that was all planned to see what they can milk off the foolish people. I hate that
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
As companies fail, they get experience in how not to fail.
I'm curious as to why people forget this and are uneager to give anyone a second chance.
Currently Watching: TSW. << Very Eager for a Beta invite. Have experience with Beta Testing.
Not personally a big fan of raiding or current pve endgame mmo philosophy. Nothing wrong with it, I just sort of burnt out on it.
Hardcore raider in wow from Launch to.. about 7 months ago.
Currently Playing: Champions Online.
Example:
Company A wants to sell you a shiny new radio that runs on Company A's patented XYZ battery. You buy it because it sounds like a great deal. The next week you read that Company A is no longer going to produce XYZ batteries (and neither is anyone else on the planet) and is switching to ABC battery production. ABC batteries won't work with your radio.
Company A also knew that they were going to stop producing XYZ battery the following week and that you would get limited use out of your XYZ only shiny radio. They, however, elected not to tell you. Later on you find this out.
Would you shop with them again?
To me second(+) chances are given to someone/group that unknowingly made and error and that makes an effort to express to you that they are genuinely sorry for making such error. Someone who does something like the above example, in my view, is owed/guaranteed a second chance just because a different in-house team is working on a different product. It's still the same overall corporation and still, for all intents and purposes, fosters the same corporate mentality.
I get that companies may get experience on how not to fail but just like every other instance that generates that common sense there is no guarantee they will interpret that experience and use it in such fashion.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Why not ? If you think your game is great, shoot.
Of course most people demand second chances for games where I never gave a first chance, for IMHO good reasons, such as Age of Conan. No I like Conan. But I like it for great storytelling. I dont need to play a shooter with blood and breasts.