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Will TOR fail heroically?

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  • jinxxed0jinxxed0 Member UncommonPosts: 841

    If it didnt have the star wars theme and you took out the signature star wars stuff and replaced them, no one would be paying any attention to this. Star Wars fans will waste their money on this and keep it alive unless they start to notice how horrible MMOs are now.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Well then I don't think it is the game that fail badly, I think the playerbase as a whole failed miserably

     

    :(

    ? Interesting conclusion. Do you mean playerbase as in the people that played the games that 'failed' and then left, or do you mean the MMO gamer community as a whole, because they want MMO's to fail badly because those aren't their taste? image

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • BrifBrif Member UncommonPosts: 529

    People like traditional MMOs, Star Wars, and Bioware so this game can't fail.

  • ichimarunicoichimarunico Member Posts: 210

    Originally posted by jjjk29

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Has the Heroic term been abused by TOR PR? 


    • Combat was supposed to be heroic and from what we saw it's the exact same thing as in WoW. Boss kiting... heroic?

    • Quests: going into a sith temple to kill worms... heroic?

    • Crafting: selecting a companion - click to have him/her do something - get results... heroic?

    • Space sim: Point and clicking in 2D on space ships not even trying to stay in your six, heroic?

    • Having the exact same ship (mobile home) as any other [insert class name]... makes you fuzzy?

    • Look & gear: grinding gear to look like any other maxed out character, so unique feeling!

    • Companions: wandering around with the same disguised companion(s) as anyone else.. heroic?

    • Being "obliged" to use companions to solo... heroicness ftw!

     


     

     

    ROFL!  Someone hasnt done their research...

    Minus the cynicism, all of those are factually accurate. Sorry. I don't agree that the game will fail financially, but I think there are going to be droves of heartbroken fans here 6 months after release unless they pour more and more money into keeping up with content.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,590

    Lets take a look at some recent failures in MMO's.

    Warhammer

    All Points Bulletin

    Age of Conan

    Final Fantasy XIV

    Those are some pretty big titles and most are/were products of veteran companies in the industry. At this point in my MMO experience, a new game should be expected to fail, not because the vision sucks, but the implementation. I know if I was making an MMO, I'd probably make it to suit my wants and desires and probably ignore the community. Problem is, MMO's are actually a business, not a personal playground, unless of course your making World of Tanks or Mortal Online. You can tell which gaming companies are new to the industry just by the way they treat their customers. In that regard, I don't think TOR will do as good as WoW. but it definitely will do better than the 4 games in the beginning of my post.

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148Member CommonPosts: 6,690

    As long as they deliver a polished fun game they will be fine.  I just don't think it will be as big as many claim.

    30
  • SwaneaSwanea Member UncommonPosts: 2,400

    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick


    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    I don't get why people want games to fail badly?

    People want games to fail badly so that only the games and MMO's of the kind they like are successful.

    Well then I don't think it is the game that fail badly, I think the playerbase as a whole failed miserably

     

    :(

    People want the game to fail so they can just say that "mainstream is bad", "like what I like", "oh I was right too!", and so they feel justified in liking their niche game with less then 10,000 players.

     

    I personally won't end up play TSW (unless something changes), ArcheAge, among others.  That sure doesn't mean I am going to make posts about how badly I hope they fail the niche player base.  If those 5,000 (let's say) people enjoy the game, more power to them.

     

    I just think better tinfoil hats would help people.

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    I somehow doubt it will fail heroically. Star Wars and Bioware labels alone will bring back the money they invested. So in terms of money: no.

    But there is such a thing as aspiration and what a game could and should have been. In THAT terms TOR can fail. Though I doubt the fans would see it that way. They are a bit like a guy going into a 5 star restaurant, getting only burgers and then say "hey, but they were the BEST burgers I ever had!". ;)

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by Rhoklaw

    Lets take a look at some recent failures in MMO's.

    Warhammer

    All Points Bulletin

    Age of Conan

    Final Fantasy XIV

    Those are some pretty big titles and most are/were products of veteran companies in the industry. At this point in my MMO experience, a new game should be expected to fail, not because the vision sucks, but the implementation. I know if I was making an MMO, I'd probably make it to suit my wants and desires and probably ignore the community. Problem is, MMO's are actually a business, not a personal playground, unless of course your making World of Tanks or Mortal Online. You can tell which gaming companies are new to the industry just by the way they treat their customers. In that regard, I don't think TOR will do as good as WoW. but it definitely will do better than the 4 games in the beginning of my post.

    Funcom and Mythic both had one MMO behind them and both delivered really buggy launches. That WAR cut a lot of it's intended content (including 4 cities that were supposed to be the endgame) didn't help either.

    APB had a great idea but they made all missions more or less the same and they charged for a game that should have been B2P like Guildwars. 100 players for each "server" FPS styled is not enough for a payment model like it had.

    FF XIV was no surprise to me, FF have been sliding down a lot since FF VII. Add requirement that few computers could run well and loads of bugs and too little content.

    So comparing these games to TOR wont help at all. The game can crash and burn or sell great, we have to wait and see.

  • tehpwnertehpwner Member Posts: 18

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Has the Heroic term been abused by TOR PR? 


    • Combat was supposed to be heroic and from what we saw it's the exact same thing as in WoW. Boss kiting... heroic?

    • Quests: going into a sith temple to kill worms... heroic?

    • Crafting: selecting a companion - click to have him/her do something - get results... heroic?

    • Space sim: Point and clicking in 2D on space ships not even trying to stay in your six, heroic?

    • Having the exact same ship (mobile home) as any other [insert class name]... makes you fuzzy?

    • Look & gear: grinding gear to look like any other maxed out character, so unique feeling!

    • Companions: wandering around with the same disguised companion(s) as anyone else.. heroic?

    • Being "obliged" to use companions to solo... heroicness ftw!

     


     

      

     


    1. The title of this thread does not reflect the contents of the original post.

    2. You used sarcasm to illustrate your point which is a clear indication that your argument lacks any substance.

    3. Unless we can all agree a definition of “heroic,” which I’m sure we can’t, the whole “Is TOR heroic?” discussion is baseless. Furthermore, when pushed its logical extreme, the discussion devolves into “Sitting in a chair and staring at a computer screen… heroic?”

    It’s apparent that you never intended to engage in an intelligent discussion on the heroic or antiheroic nature of TOR. Rather, you created this thread to bash the game and complain about certain aspects that you dislike. And while that would have been fine had you made it clear that was your intention, you used that opportunity to make a thoughtless, immature rant which you attempted to disguise by infusing your post with inquisitive humor. Ultimately, you failed in your attempt to prove that TOR is not heroic.

     

  • Master10KMaster10K Member Posts: 3,065

    Originally posted by Loke666

    *snip*

    Funcom and Mythic both had one MMO behind them and both delivered really buggy launches. That WAR cut a lot of it's intended content (including 4 cities that were supposed to be the endgame) didn't help either.

    APB had a great idea but they made all missions more or less the same and they charged for a game that should have been B2P like Guildwars. 100 players for each "server" FPS styled is not enough for a payment model like it had.

    FF XIV was no surprise to me, FF have been sliding down a lot since FF VII. Add requirement that few computers could run well and loads of bugs and too little content.

    So comparing these games to TOR wont help at all. The game can crash and burn or sell great, we have to wait and see.

    2 of those failures are explained quite well in this video and it's pretty obvious when comparing these cases to SWTOR, that Bioware and EA have learnt from past mistakes. Such as communication with the community and not to release a game early (which we can tell they learnt, from all the delays and the year long closed beta).

    image

  • shinobi234shinobi234 Member Posts: 437

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Has the Heroic term been abused by TOR PR? 


    • Combat was supposed to be heroic and from what we saw it's the exact same thing as in WoW. Boss kiting... heroic?

    • Quests: going into a sith temple to kill worms... heroic?

    • Crafting: selecting a companion - click to have him/her do something - get results... heroic?

    • Space sim: Point and clicking in 2D on space ships not even trying to stay in your six, heroic?

    • Having the exact same ship (mobile home) as any other [insert class name]... makes you fuzzy?

    • Look & gear: grinding gear to look like any other maxed out character, so unique feeling!

    • Companions: wandering around with the same disguised companion(s) as anyone else.. heroic?

    • Being "obliged" to use companions to solo... heroicness ftw!

     


     

     

    how about dont buy the game :D if you think this

    .....

  • Methos12Methos12 Member UncommonPosts: 1,242

     






    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick



    An example: in other MMO's you'd be killing a rat by hammering on him for a full minute and could very likely be killed by a bee. In SWTOR you'll fight against multiple opponents right from the start, with a story that sticks with you more than a few forgettable lines of text that serves as an excuse for you checking off your task list. So yes, scorn it all you like, but if you want your quests to be like that, I'd suggest that you stick with the current AAA titles, Rift is out and is a good example of that traditional type of questing, so if you like that kind then Rift will be a good game for you.

     

    As for terms like 'heroic', it's just a term, no one can force you to feel 'heroic' if you don't like it. But it's one of the things they had in mind when they made their design. In fact, iirc the Blizzard devs stated a sortlike claim of 'wanting the players to feel heroic' and their gameplay design as experienced for example in the questing certainly had a different feel to it than EQ.



    This could all be rectified by a simple change in the overall philosophy - make it challenging so that you FEEL heroic for doing something important and extraordinary. What many don't get is that simply increasing numbers of everything doesn't make things heroic in the least unless there's a genuine effort on the player's side to achieve his goal. To make him feel like a hero. All TOR is doing, to use your example, is basically splitting one rat with medium HP into multiple rats each with low HP so you can kill them faster. It doesn't make any difference because STORY and QUEST FLAVOR TEXT are the same for these ordinary quests. You'll forget about them anyway.

     

    But then again, challenging and MMOs don't mix so well in the first place these days.

    Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
  • karat76karat76 Member UncommonPosts: 1,000

    I don't think it will get WoW numbers but I believe it will be a worthwhile investment.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,900

    Originally posted by jjjk29

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Has the Heroic term been abused by TOR PR? 


    • Combat was supposed to be heroic and from what we saw it's the exact same thing as in WoW. Boss kiting... heroic?

    • Quests: going into a sith temple to kill worms... heroic?

    • Crafting: selecting a companion - click to have him/her do something - get results... heroic?

    • Space sim: Point and clicking in 2D on space ships not even trying to stay in your six, heroic?

    • Having the exact same ship (mobile home) as any other [insert class name]... makes you fuzzy?

    • Look & gear: grinding gear to look like any other maxed out character, so unique feeling!

    • Companions: wandering around with the same disguised companion(s) as anyone else.. heroic?

    • Being "obliged" to use companions to solo... heroicness ftw!

     


     

     

    ROFL!  Someone hasnt done their research...

     

    Nothing he says is wrong.You may not like the content or tone, but 'ROFL'? No.

    And yes, to answer the OP, I feel from what I have seen that the game will fail to conjure the feel of 'heroic'. Nothing in it so far looks 'heroic' to me as of yet. I may be wrong, I may have the wrong impression, but watching and listening it all seems very pedestrian.

    So, yeah, it may well fail at evoking this sense of 'heroism', but if it does then their overuse of the marketing buzz word will make them a laughing stock.

    In a world filled with thousands of heros, does 'hero' become mundane? To be fair thats a question every MMORPG has to ask itself.

  • SpandexDroidSpandexDroid Member Posts: 277

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Has the Heroic term been abused by TOR PR? 


    • Combat was supposed to be heroic and from what we saw it's the exact same thing as in WoW. Boss kiting... heroic?

    • Quests: going into a sith temple to kill worms... heroic?

    • Crafting: selecting a companion - click to have him/her do something - get results... heroic?

    • Space sim: Point and clicking in 2D on space ships not even trying to stay in your six, heroic?

    • Having the exact same ship (mobile home) as any other [insert class name]... makes you fuzzy?

    • Look & gear: grinding gear to look like any other maxed out character, so unique feeling!

    • Companions: wandering around with the same disguised companion(s) as anyone else.. heroic?

    • Being "obliged" to use companions to solo... heroicness ftw!

     


     

     

     

    The single player experience? lol

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Methos12

     

    This could all be rectified by a simple change in the overall philosophy - make it challenging so that you FEEL heroic for doing something important and extraordinary. What many don't get is that simply increasing numbers of everything doesn't make things heroic in the least unless there's a genuine effort on the player's side to achieve his goal. To make him feel like a hero. All TOR is doing, to use your example, is basically splitting one rat with medium HP into multiple rats each with low HP so you can kill them faster. It doesn't make any difference because STORY and QUEST FLAVOR TEXT are the same for these ordinary quests. You'll forget about them anyway.

     

    But then again, challenging and MMOs don't mix so well in the first place these days.

     

    Granted, it's hard to tell how things will feel and end up for everyone personally in their gameplay experience. But there have been reports where exactly that is happening. That people fought multiple enemies and frequently were into fights that brought them to the brink of death. To make each mob encounter not a yawn but more exciting, I don't see how else it could be done.

    Then again, I found the mob encounters in AoC where you had to fight several mobs that hammered your health away exciting as well, while I guess you also had people who thought AoC's melee combat tedious and boring, so it's all subjective.

     


    Originally posted by vesavius

    And yes, to answer the OP, I feel from what I have seen that the game will fail to conjure the feel of 'heroic'. Nothing in it so far looks 'heroic' to me as of yet. I may be wrong, I may have the wrong impression, but watching and listening it all seems very pedestrian.

    So, yeah, it may well fail at evoking this sense of 'heroism', but if it does then their overuse of the marketing buzz word will make them a laughing stock.

    In a world filled with thousands of heros, does 'hero' become mundane? To be fair thats a question every MMORPG has to ask itself.

    Sounds like hoping/wishful thinking to me. You know, as like 'I don't like this game, so I wish for it to fail for all kinds of unrealistic reasons'.

     

    Most people don't really care if a buzzword is being used in the thousands of statements that devs make, just as they didn't really care when Blizzard devs used that word, only critics find it that important to smash a company with of a game they dislike.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933

    Originally posted by Sigilaea

    It won't fail. They will make their money back in 6 months.

    My humble opinion is that they will make most of their money back just from the box & digital copy sales.

  • SigilaeaSigilaea Member Posts: 317

    Originally posted by Shodanas

    Originally posted by Sigilaea

    It won't fail. They will make their money back in 6 months.

    My humble opinion is that they will make most of their money back just from the box & digital copy sales.

    That is a pretty good assumption.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,900

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick 

     


    Originally posted by vesavius



    And yes, to answer the OP, I feel from what I have seen that the game will fail to conjure the feel of 'heroic'. Nothing in it so far looks 'heroic' to me as of yet. I may be wrong, I may have the wrong impression, but watching and listening it all seems very pedestrian.

    So, yeah, it may well fail at evoking this sense of 'heroism', but if it does then their overuse of the marketing buzz word will make them a laughing stock.

    In a world filled with thousands of heros, does 'hero' become mundane? To be fair thats a question every MMORPG has to ask itself.

    Sounds like hoping/wishful thinking to me. You know, as like 'I don't like this game, so I wish for it to fail for all kinds of unrealistic reasons'.

     

    It looking pedestrian, ininspired, derivative, and... a bit boring are 'unrealistic reasons' for thinking it will 'fail' maybe to inspire the 'heroic' experience it is being hyped on?

    I don't think so.

     

    Look... once and for all;

    I honestly do not care if it flies or falls as a game, really I don't. I am just calling it as I am seeing it. Please do not try to dismiss my opinion by attaching your own biased meanings to it. You do it all the time and it gets irritating.

    Btw, I also havent said it will 'fail'. I actually think it will sell very very well and be a huge success (if such is your definition of success). That dosent change my personal view based on what I have experienced right now though.

  • whilanwhilan Member UncommonPosts: 3,472

    I agree if it's just splitting every creatures (from other MMOs) down to 1/3 their abilities (1/3 health 1/3 defense 1/3 atk power) that it wouldn't be any harder to kill them then they would be in any other game.

    The thing that might be different in this game is what those 1/3 might be.

    In an normal MMO you got a rat hes a level 10 warrior type (bashes you, bites at you, doesn't use spells)

    Now you know what to expect from that rat. So as long as you stay ahead of his hp and don't get stunned by his bashes your okay. Theres no way for him to reheal by spell or other unnatural ways.

    Now if we take that same rat and split him into 3 parts, make one a warrior rat, a priest rat and a wizard rat (all 1/3 their natural stat minus level, of the warrior rat)

    Now you have one blasting at  you for large damage, one is healing the warrior rat and the warrior rat is bashing you causing you to be stunned. Done wrong or getting unlucky you could be almost done killing one of the rats, get stunned by the warrior, blasted hard by the wizard and the healer one just rehealed the damage you did to the one your attacking.

    By splitting the encounter your very possibly not fighting 3 warriors but a mini group.  That in itself could make things a lot harder then just fighting one rat. Not to mention if they manage to get that AI of theirs working again (as it wasn't in the tatoonie video i heard) then you got 3-5 enemies moving around and ducking behind cover.  To me it's much harder watching 3-5 guys then just the one.

    Thats of course assuming what i'm speculating is the norm for the fight.  But without playing it i don't know for certain, even so the possibility is there to make it a lot harder.

    Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

    Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

    image

  • senti02senti02 Member UncommonPosts: 96

    i think i read almost same post in Rift forum before it came out..not trolling

  • CalibanvovCalibanvov Member UncommonPosts: 192

    Well if "Heroic" meant you could be in god-mode, then it would be an awful boring game wouldnt it?

     

     

  • Jimmy562Jimmy562 Member UncommonPosts: 1,158

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by jjjk29


    Originally posted by Deewe

    Has the Heroic term been abused by TOR PR? 


    • Combat was supposed to be heroic and from what we saw it's the exact same thing as in WoW. Boss kiting... heroic?

    • Quests: going into a sith temple to kill worms... heroic?

    • Crafting: selecting a companion - click to have him/her do something - get results... heroic?

    • Space sim: Point and clicking in 2D on space ships not even trying to stay in your six, heroic?

    • Having the exact same ship (mobile home) as any other [insert class name]... makes you fuzzy?

    • Look & gear: grinding gear to look like any other maxed out character, so unique feeling!

    • Companions: wandering around with the same disguised companion(s) as anyone else.. heroic?

    • Being "obliged" to use companions to solo... heroicness ftw!

     


     

     

    ROFL!  Someone hasnt done their research...

     

    Nothing he says is wrong.You may not like the content or tone, but 'ROFL'? No.

    And yes, to answer the OP, I feel from what I have seen that the game will fail to conjure the feel of 'heroic'. Nothing in it so far looks 'heroic' to me as of yet. I may be wrong, I may have the wrong impression, but watching and listening it all seems very pedestrian.

    So, yeah, it may well fail at evoking this sense of 'heroism', but if it does then their overuse of the marketing buzz word will make them a laughing stock.

    In a world filled with thousands of heros, does 'hero' become mundane? To be fair thats a question every MMORPG has to ask itself.

    He is wrong on some.

    You don't have the exact same ship as every other class. Combat is heroic, just because the style resembles WoW doesn't take that away. I believe the quest to go into the sith temple wasn't to kill worms, that was a bonus quest that was automatically given due to the fact you will most likely kill a lot when going through the temple.

  • IncomparableIncomparable Member UncommonPosts: 1,114

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Has the Heroic term been abused by TOR PR? 


    • Combat was supposed to be heroic and from what we saw it's the exact same thing as in WoW. Boss kiting... heroic?

    • Quests: going into a sith temple to kill worms... heroic?

    • Crafting: selecting a companion - click to have him/her do something - get results... heroic?

    • Space sim: Point and clicking in 2D on space ships not even trying to stay in your six, heroic?

    • Having the exact same ship (mobile home) as any other [insert class name]... makes you fuzzy?

    • Look & gear: grinding gear to look like any other maxed out character, so unique feeling!

    • Companions: wandering around with the same disguised companion(s) as anyone else.. heroic?

    • Being "obliged" to use companions to solo... heroicness ftw!

     


     

     

    This post sounds like a game that works with the the natural limitations of a game while at the same time not having specific features that you like.

     

    I checked out the game, and it looks like a good game. Maybe they over used the term heroic, but people who play to many games easily find nothing heroic these days. I bet the people who see this game as great are either young, SW fans, realistic, or do not over analyze games.

    I take my gaming seriously too, but when it comes to finally owning something I put my over critical self aside and enjoy the game. When it comes to criticzing the game, I will probably say the same thing.

    However, being realistc about the games potential, and what it has to offer makes it more enjoyable. So while criticing the game might help to improve the game for beta, on the other hand for the others it can be a downer, while also making it harder for yourself to enjoy the game at the same time by over analyzing it.

    So if you are going to actually own the game, are you (we) going to remind ourselves about all these flaws on the game while playing or are we going to try to immerse ourselves. If we are not going to remind ourselves then why be over critical and bring others down with an opinion which is not constructive? Seems kind of hypocritical to me.

    I have no problem reading criticism but I know from hearing peoples opinion on different forums they get tired of people being over critical. So what is the point of being over critical if it is not contructive and is only to be a downer?

    Maybe we are more sensitive than we think, and need to learn to not be affected by the hype or negative feedback either way... which is not an easy thing to do when we care about something enough to read up on it.

    “Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

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