I have a question to the people that seem to have a problem with the end-game - What do you suggest? People love to state what sucks and needs innovation, but very few are prepared to provide said initiative.
I myself have grown tired of the raid/dungeon grind. I recognize that **I** have grown bored of it. It doesn't mean that the model blows, will ultimately fail, and that anyone that likes the model is a douche bag.
I think it's a shame that developers spend so much time in endgame and so little in the journey. If you spent more resources on making the journey enjoyable players will feel more like replaying the game, thus retaining subscription numbers.
I think it's a shame that developers spend so much time in endgame and so little in the journey. If you spent more resources on making the journey enjoyable players will feel more like replaying the game, thus retaining subscription numbers.
Isn't that what the new MMO's are doing, SWTOR with its story immersive questing and high replayability, GW2 with Personal Story and DE's, and TSW with its no-levels and VO/cinematic mission quests?
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think it's a shame that developers spend so much time in endgame and so little in the journey. If you spent more resources on making the journey enjoyable players will feel more like replaying the game, thus retaining subscription numbers.
Isn't that what the new MMO's are doing, SWTOR with its story immersive questing and high replayability, GW2 with Personal Story and DE's, and TSW with its no-levels and VO/cinematic mission quests?
Yes, but neither of these games are out and we don't know how any of these design decisions turn out.
I said "out" twice in the same sentence.
And I believe that SWTOR is still implenting Raids and Tiered Gear Progression.
- Graphics: It remains one of my biggest complains, and even if you tell me 1000 times they don't look so bad. No they do not! But they do NOT look breathtaking either. I mean we get so many impressions that the visuals look "competent but hardly breathtaking" (gameindustry.biz) and similar stuff like "if it weren't Star Wars it would be less impressive". (Massively) And that is what I see too. You know, if *I* were in the seat to make the next big MMO, the next Star Wars, dammit, I would make the frigging BEST TOP NOTCH visuals possible! Graphics to make people wet their pants and kick them out of the shoes! Visuals to REALLY REALLY impress. Think of Crysis! Or heck, think of Witcher 2! (Just for a minute compare the lush details of Witcher 2 with the lackluster, sterile world of Dragon Age 2!) I just don't get it why Bioware made just.... this? I mean, again, it's not bad, but surely nothing to write home about in terms of graphics.
Breathtaking graphics mean lower box sales. Thank Blizzard for this technique. Too many PC gamers have only mediocre computers, and if you alienate them by making the game demanding, you lose subs.
- Combat: It's just the same critique as with graphics. They look ok. But dagnabit, it's Star Wars, it that 100-300 million dollar game and THAT'S IT? Thats the best combat you could come up with? I mean, again, it's ok. But the repetitive pew pew and the nailed to the ground mobs really isn't kicking me out of my shoes. And blast for that huge game, for Star Wars, for a really Triple A... this combat is just lame. I am sorry to say if that hurts your feeling, but it's true. And again, I wonder how that could happen? I mean, they have all the money, they have good people they have TIME, and this is all? This combat is so like Everquest from 10 years ago! Stand there, shoot around and repeat. There is nothing new or inspired in this combat at all. It's just a Starwarsy WOW sort of combat. Stand there, shoot your abilities, rinse repeat.
WoW has the best combat in the business, because its smooth and responsive. That is the main key to having a good combat system. Reinventing the wheel has shown to get lackluster response in this department, other games have tried and came up short.
- Quests: Way back one of the SWTOR developer said, that we are NEVER going on such mundane quests like kill 10 rats in TOR. Never. And now if you look at the quests, it's EXACTLY like that. Yes, there is Granny Sithlord telling you 5 minutes about her life and her elaborate background story and then you have the choice to say something nice or something mean (huzzah!) but in those remaining 95% of the game you still will walk around with a shopping list and kill the 10 womprats in Granny Sithlord's cellar and she's going to reward you with a nice womprat-pie STR+10 for 60 min. I mean, what happened to this promise that we never will go to such mundane tasks? That ALL quests are going to be epic and heroic? PUFF... vanished like dew in the morning. I mean, heck, I know MMOs will always have such quests, and I didn't believe that one moment. Only that TOR is again SO average, so Everquestish. I mean, look at GW2 and the dynamic content. No matter how that will play out, at least they ATTEMPT to make something different than the neanderthal age formula of farming 10 rats standing there! And with such a budget I'd just expect more than that.
Its an MMO. You need to get over that fairytale nonsense real quick. There is always going to be filler content, hell its even in Biowares singleplayer games.
- Endgame: So the truth is out. Endgame is WOW. Period. I mean, maybe they still have a few aces up their sleeves, but from here it looked pretty much like WOW Endgame. Grind Raids and grind dungeons for Gear of Tier1,2,3 asf. ad nauseam. Yes, they have story. Someone will tell you a cool story why you are there, and that sure is cool and fascinating for the first 2 or 3 times. Of the 2000 times you are going to grind that dungeon for your Tier 3 gearset.
There isn't anything else they can really do on the PvE end. Your free to spout off some ideas, but I'm pretty sure they aren't going to be worthwhile. PvP definitely could use some improvement though.
- No Sandbox whatsoever: When TOR was announced, the Bioware devs said TOR was going to be no Sandbox and no Themepark, but a mix of both. It was a lie. TOR is a 100% Themepark and entirely DEVOID of ANY Sandbox elements! I mean, I love themepark questing, but to keep people playing a game in the long run, JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes. And what better to keep people entertained a longer time, as to add *some* sandbox elements. But truth is, unless we are yet to hear surprises: They ain't there. You have your story quests and the rest is figleaf-there. There is figleaf space, figleaf-crafting, figleaf-hosuing and the game is almost entirely empty of anything NOT involving killing stuff. And Sandbox elements just remain the best receipe for longevity! I mean, what am I do to otherwise if my 200 hours class story are over?
People like labeling Fallen Earth a sandbox. I suspect TOR will be about as much of a sandbox as FE is for many of the same reasons. And no, I don't think its a sandbox either, but personally I never fell for any such notion that a Bioware game would be a sandbox. I think it has been pretty obvious exactly what type of game Bioware was making for the past year now.
I know it will come over as rant, and it prolly is. But now that most of the cards have been revealed I can't help but feel let down. I mean, sure it will be a nice and decend game. I am going to play it a while. But why Bioware aimed for so little in so many core areas... it's something I just don't get why.
Because they need a solid base to work with. Innovation is not done by recreating the entire machine, you add a bit... you tweak a bit, you innovate on one or two points, and then you go from there. Doing anything more is almost assuring yourself of failure. Customers (gamers included) don't handle massive change very well, they tend to like to stay in their comfort zone.
I have a question to the people that seem to have a problem with the end-game - What do you suggest? People love to state what sucks and needs innovation, but very few are prepared to provide said initiative.
I myself have grown tired of the raid/dungeon grind. I recognize that **I** have grown bored of it. It doesn't mean that the model blows, will ultimately fail, and that anyone that likes the model is a douche bag.
I think there should be dungeons and PvP instances. If people like it they should do it. But I want more...
There could be epic quests, AA, crafting, world PvP. Rewards that you get when you explore the world and find something rare.
But I dont know if there is any official statement that claims the only option at max level will be to grind instances to get gear. Perhaps when the game is released we will learn that there are other options.
The same old game in a new box. What is my take on anything this big? Simple, you got fanboys defending it through their teeth, and you got fanboys enraged by how cheaply developed some parts are. Simple overview, if anything is like in the videos I will not pay for the game. I'll play if you buy me time and the game copy, but I won't waste my money on this. I never wasted money on Rift, and I waited for the free trial to find out the game sucked. If Bioware will release a free trial or a free play period then I'll try the game out, otherwise no. The subscription doesn't justify for me to pay a box price and have fun with a game soo underweighted.
What game do I want to play? Guild Wars 2, Terra, Blade and Soul, ect. I got sick when I logged into Anima aka Prius Online and that was a "emotional" mmorpg with supposedly a epic storyline. It killed it for me. I know crap when I see it, and this TOR is crap in a new box. Yeah, I don't count as playing it, nor do I have a major beef with the game. It was a let down when the developers opened their mouths to promise crap they won't come through on. TBH, I don't think it was fair to say anything they ever showed held my interest. I take a look to DCUO, and many other games that promise those big guns.
They have nice CGI trailers and a good fanbase, but it'll turn out the same. We defend and attack, but when it comes down to it, this is just a fad that we will get over with in 6 months or less. Sure, congrats that you and your guild had some fun on here being heros of the Sith Empire. You can have just as much innovative fun on Habbo Hotel as you can have in this game. Sad part is, most of you justify your excuse to defend or attack it. I justify that something like this isn't worth my money.
I am a big fan of Star Wars and Lord Of The Rings, and even Guild Wars. The thing that kills each game I play is simple. Community, fun and interaction, and how repetitive it is. They didn't even try to give me something to keep playing here, or even give me a reason to justify $50+$15 monthly. I don't want the moon, and I have posted a lot about what to give people and people like me to make replay value. Bioware didn't deliver, but ArenaNet atleast tried to deliver. It made my decision for me, and I can justify it. I get more for my money with Guild Wars 2, and I will not subscribe to a game unless they give me my justification. I want simple things, things that Guild Wars 2 tries to offer.
Will I quit Guild Wars 2? Hell yeah, if it gets boring then yeah. They can only go so far, and when I reach it, I'll quit and move on.
Nonethekess, it will be massive, and once again will the market have given the very clear signal that it wants quest grind driven themepark games that lack ambition or imagination.
We really only have ourselves to blame for the state of this genre. If wedidnt show them this what sells they would make something else.
Ahh well.
Oh come on, don't be so negative. There's also GW2, TSW, TERA, ArcheAge and other MMO's upcoming, so it's far too early to claim doom and gloom. In fact, I think that we'll see several different MMO designs be successful and exist happily next to eachother. No need for a 'there can be only one!' exclamations when it comes to successful and popular MMO gameplay type.
Admittedly, that's my own wishful thinking speaking too
I am not negative about everything, only things that make me feel that way... I speak pretty positively about a lot of games here, if I play them or not.
It's just what I have seen of this so far of this title dosent inspire anything but negativity in me so far
My hope is that AA,and GW2 in a different way, can show the industry there is a thirst for bolder, more imaginative, more inspired games, but there is no escaping that this will sell tons and that alone will be taken as a clear indicator of what the market wants.
Ya know, if you go into a new game grudgeingly and already this pessimistic, you are pretty much dooming yourself to not like it. Especially if you hate the graphics, I mean you are going to be looking at them the whole time you play. If you really dislike the graphics rather than being say, indifferent, why put yourself through it? You will then either hate yourself for wasting money and being 'fooled/lied to' and/or hate the developer/publisher/guild/friends who 'fooled/lied to' you.
Just take a step back and ask yourself why you are even playing these games. Especially ones you seem to have so much problems with. if you want things to change, STOP BUYING EVERY SINGLE MMO THAT COMES OUT! you are only telling developers that you want MORE of what they have been doing.
I do agree with the OP. As far as we can judge right now this game is a medicore product to boot. Especialy i you consider the ammount of money that they put in it.
All of the game aspects except the story seem bland and unatractive... And when you consider how the other upcomming MMOs are at least trying to inovate (TERA, Blade and Soul, GW2) it does make Bioware look flat in comparison . As the OP i'm still going to atleast try it but its mostly because of Star Wars and Bioware. If there were no lightsabers i would propabbly skip over it as another EQ/WoW-same-old-thing.
As for the story goes... There was AoCs tortage and main character quest so its not as it wasn't tried before...
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All of the game aspects except the story seem bland and unatractive... And when you consider how the other upcomming MMOs are at least trying to inovate (TERA, Blade and Soul, GW2) it does make Bioware look flat in comparison . As the OP i'm still going to atleast try it but its mostly because of Star Wars and Bioware. If there were no lightsabers i would propabbly skip over it as another EQ/WoW-same-old-thing.
I agree with you on GW2, I don't know anything about Blade & Soul so if you have information about it, that's welcome, but I disagree on TERA. Nothing bad to say about TERA, but so far the only thing in TERA that I see that's innovative is the combat mechanics, the rest is all familiar themepark design. Could you elaborate on what else they're trying to innovate? I heard about the political system, but I also understand that hasn't been implemented yet.
As for SWTOR, I agree it won't win prices for being majorly innovative: yet, the way the questing is revamped, things like Companions, the crafting and the cover system are imo certainly innovations or a big difference from the familiar.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You know what irks me the most about TOR, it's the damn mediocrity on the most expensive title of all times. I mean, I really do not count myself in the hater corner; though if you totally adore every thing from TOR, it prolly looks like that relatively from where you are standing. I mean, I am sure story and decisions are cool and several other aspects and decisions are as well. But as we get closer to launch and more and more details become visible... I am just again confirmed how much TOR is mediocre in almost every other aspect than story.
And I wonder how this can be? I mean, if you invest SO MANY dollars, now matter how many exactly, and if you make the next STAR WARS MMO... don't YOU expect... I dunno... more? I mean, come on. It's EA, Bioware, Starwars and tons of dollars... and this is it? I am really not saying I hate TOR. I am 100% going to buy it and likely play at least one or two class stories through. But everything is so average.
- Graphics: It remains one of my biggest complains, and even if you tell me 1000 times they don't look so bad. No they do not! But they do NOT look breathtaking either. I mean we get so many impressions that the visuals look "competent but hardly breathtaking" (gameindustry.biz) and similar stuff like "if it weren't Star Wars it would be less impressive". (Massively) And that is what I see too. You know, if *I* were in the seat to make the next big MMO, the next Star Wars, dammit, I would make the frigging BEST TOP NOTCH visuals possible! Graphics to make people wet their pants and kick them out of the shoes! Visuals to REALLY REALLY impress. Think of Crysis! Or heck, think of Witcher 2! (Just for a minute compare the lush details of Witcher 2 with the lackluster, sterile world of Dragon Age 2!) I just don't get it why Bioware made just.... this? I mean, again, it's not bad, but surely nothing to write home about in terms of graphics.
- Combat: It's just the same critique as with graphics. They look ok. But dagnabit, it's Star Wars, it that 100-300 million dollar game and THAT'S IT? Thats the best combat you could come up with? I mean, again, it's ok. But the repetitive pew pew and the nailed to the ground mobs really isn't kicking me out of my shoes. And blast for that huge game, for Star Wars, for a really Triple A... this combat is just lame. I am sorry to say if that hurts your feeling, but it's true. And again, I wonder how that could happen? I mean, they have all the money, they have good people they have TIME, and this is all? This combat is so like Everquest from 10 years ago! Stand there, shoot around and repeat. There is nothing new or inspired in this combat at all. It's just a Starwarsy WOW sort of combat. Stand there, shoot your abilities, rinse repeat.
- Quests: Way back one of the SWTOR developer said, that we are NEVER going on such mundane quests like kill 10 rats in TOR. Never. And now if you look at the quests, it's EXACTLY like that. Yes, there is Granny Sithlord telling you 5 minutes about her life and her elaborate background story and then you have the choice to say something nice or something mean (huzzah!) but in those remaining 95% of the game you still will walk around with a shopping list and kill the 10 womprats in Granny Sithlord's cellar and she's going to reward you with a nice womprat-pie STR+10 for 60 min. I mean, what happened to this promise that we never will go to such mundane tasks? That ALL quests are going to be epic and heroic? PUFF... vanished like dew in the morning. I mean, heck, I know MMOs will always have such quests, and I didn't believe that one moment. Only that TOR is again SO average, so Everquestish. I mean, look at GW2 and the dynamic content. No matter how that will play out, at least they ATTEMPT to make something different than the neanderthal age formula of farming 10 rats standing there! And with such a budget I'd just expect more than that.
- Endgame: So the truth is out. Endgame is WOW. Period. I mean, maybe they still have a few aces up their sleeves, but from here it looked pretty much like WOW Endgame. Grind Raids and grind dungeons for Gear of Tier1,2,3 asf. ad nauseam. Yes, they have story. Someone will tell you a cool story why you are there, and that sure is cool and fascinating for the first 2 or 3 times. Of the 2000 times you are going to grind that dungeon for your Tier 3 gearset.
- No Sandbox whatsoever: When TOR was announced, the Bioware devs said TOR was going to be no Sandbox and no Themepark, but a mix of both. It was a lie. TOR is a 100% Themepark and entirely DEVOID of ANY Sandbox elements! I mean, I love themepark questing, but to keep people playing a game in the long run, JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes. And what better to keep people entertained a longer time, as to add *some* sandbox elements. But truth is, unless we are yet to hear surprises: They ain't there. You have your story quests and the rest is figleaf-there. There is figleaf space, figleaf-crafting, figleaf-hosuing and the game is almost entirely empty of anything NOT involving killing stuff. And Sandbox elements just remain the best receipe for longevity! I mean, what am I do to otherwise if my 200 hours class story are over?
I know it will come over as rant, and it prolly is. But now that most of the cards have been revealed I can't help but feel let down. I mean, sure it will be a nice and decend game. I am going to play it a while. But why Bioware aimed for so little in so many core areas... it's something I just don't get why.
errrr...... have you even played the game yet? if u have then fair enough but if not thats an awfully lot of very strong opinions for a game you havent even played
If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
You know what irks me the most about TOR, it's the damn mediocrity on the most expensive title of all times. I mean, I really do not count myself in the hater corner; though if you totally adore every thing from TOR, it prolly looks like that relatively from where you are standing. I mean, I am sure story and decisions are cool and several other aspects and decisions are as well. But as we get closer to launch and more and more details become visible... I am just again confirmed how much TOR is mediocre in almost every other aspect than story.
And I wonder how this can be? I mean, if you invest SO MANY dollars, now matter how many exactly, and if you make the next STAR WARS MMO... don't YOU expect... I dunno... more? I mean, come on. It's EA, Bioware, Starwars and tons of dollars... and this is it? I am really not saying I hate TOR. I am 100% going to buy it and likely play at least one or two class stories through. But everything is so average.
- Graphics: It remains one of my biggest complains, and even if you tell me 1000 times they don't look so bad. No they do not! But they do NOT look breathtaking either. I mean we get so many impressions that the visuals look "competent but hardly breathtaking" (gameindustry.biz) and similar stuff like "if it weren't Star Wars it would be less impressive". (Massively) And that is what I see too. You know, if *I* were in the seat to make the next big MMO, the next Star Wars, dammit, I would make the frigging BEST TOP NOTCH visuals possible! Graphics to make people wet their pants and kick them out of the shoes! Visuals to REALLY REALLY impress. Think of Crysis! Or heck, think of Witcher 2! (Just for a minute compare the lush details of Witcher 2 with the lackluster, sterile world of Dragon Age 2!) I just don't get it why Bioware made just.... this? I mean, again, it's not bad, but surely nothing to write home about in terms of graphics.
- Combat: It's just the same critique as with graphics. They look ok. But dagnabit, it's Star Wars, it that 100-300 million dollar game and THAT'S IT? Thats the best combat you could come up with? I mean, again, it's ok. But the repetitive pew pew and the nailed to the ground mobs really isn't kicking me out of my shoes. And blast for that huge game, for Star Wars, for a really Triple A... this combat is just lame. I am sorry to say if that hurts your feeling, but it's true. And again, I wonder how that could happen? I mean, they have all the money, they have good people they have TIME, and this is all? This combat is so like Everquest from 10 years ago! Stand there, shoot around and repeat. There is nothing new or inspired in this combat at all. It's just a Starwarsy WOW sort of combat. Stand there, shoot your abilities, rinse repeat.
- Quests: Way back one of the SWTOR developer said, that we are NEVER going on such mundane quests like kill 10 rats in TOR. Never. And now if you look at the quests, it's EXACTLY like that. Yes, there is Granny Sithlord telling you 5 minutes about her life and her elaborate background story and then you have the choice to say something nice or something mean (huzzah!) but in those remaining 95% of the game you still will walk around with a shopping list and kill the 10 womprats in Granny Sithlord's cellar and she's going to reward you with a nice womprat-pie STR+10 for 60 min. I mean, what happened to this promise that we never will go to such mundane tasks? That ALL quests are going to be epic and heroic? PUFF... vanished like dew in the morning. I mean, heck, I know MMOs will always have such quests, and I didn't believe that one moment. Only that TOR is again SO average, so Everquestish. I mean, look at GW2 and the dynamic content. No matter how that will play out, at least they ATTEMPT to make something different than the neanderthal age formula of farming 10 rats standing there! And with such a budget I'd just expect more than that.
- Endgame: So the truth is out. Endgame is WOW. Period. I mean, maybe they still have a few aces up their sleeves, but from here it looked pretty much like WOW Endgame. Grind Raids and grind dungeons for Gear of Tier1,2,3 asf. ad nauseam. Yes, they have story. Someone will tell you a cool story why you are there, and that sure is cool and fascinating for the first 2 or 3 times. Of the 2000 times you are going to grind that dungeon for your Tier 3 gearset.
- No Sandbox whatsoever: When TOR was announced, the Bioware devs said TOR was going to be no Sandbox and no Themepark, but a mix of both. It was a lie. TOR is a 100% Themepark and entirely DEVOID of ANY Sandbox elements! I mean, I love themepark questing, but to keep people playing a game in the long run, JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes. And what better to keep people entertained a longer time, as to add *some* sandbox elements. But truth is, unless we are yet to hear surprises: They ain't there. You have your story quests and the rest is figleaf-there. There is figleaf space, figleaf-crafting, figleaf-hosuing and the game is almost entirely empty of anything NOT involving killing stuff. And Sandbox elements just remain the best receipe for longevity! I mean, what am I do to otherwise if my 200 hours class story are over?
I know it will come over as rant, and it prolly is. But now that most of the cards have been revealed I can't help but feel let down. I mean, sure it will be a nice and decend game. I am going to play it a while. But why Bioware aimed for so little in so many core areas... it's something I just don't get why.
errrr...... have you even played the game yet? if u have then fair enough but if not thats an awfully lot of very strong opinions for a game you havent even played
Agreed. This coming from someone claiming to not be a hater of the game AND accusing anyone who disagrees with him of being a fanboy.
That's our Elikal, agonizing himself in knots over what "might be" and what "should be".
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I agree 100% with the poster except for it being nearly a good game. It is not. BIOWARE wants in on all the money Blizzard is making. So why not try to take WoW and reskin it as Star Wars!? So that is why you have the same old boring garbage as you saw in the last 10 MMORPGs. Bioware obviously isn't creative and thought that the star wars title alone was enough to get people to want to play. It isn't. I don't want to play something that looks like disney land..and i sure as hell don't want to play a SINGLE PLAYER game online.
This is what happens when you have an MMO like WOW that influences all future MMOs. They turn out to be garbage. What? Were you surprised? I'm sure as hell not. I want Archage to lead the way in MMORPG gaming. TOR? It's utter garbage. The 12 year old WoW lovers can have this crap MMO.
errrr...... have you even played the game yet? if u have then fair enough but if not thats an awfully lot of very strong opinions for a game you havent even played
Agreed. This coming from someone claiming to not be a hater of the game AND accusing anyone who disagrees with him of being a fanboy.
That's our Elikal, agonizing himself in knots over what "might be" and what "should be".
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
Thank you for quoting one of the most retarded lines from the idiotic dialogue of the Prequels, because that is really helpfull to show the line of reasoning that both fans and haters like to use. Since all those terms are interchangeable, lets do the same with the argument used here to deny any form of criticism: 'You havnt played it so you dont know'. Good, so then stop being positive right now, delete all the banners, because you can not possibly be excited since you havnt played it yet. Clearly, someone can anticipate in a positive way, but not a in a negative way. But why? Please point this out to me. Elikal just pointed out the things that bother him, which are fully based on anticipation. If any discussion can only follow from handson experience, then we could close these forums right now.
Stop turning every discussion into some kind of battle. Stop acting as if any form of criticism is a direct attack.
Your argument actually has some merit I will agree. What totally kills it for me is the OVERWHELMINGLY good reaction by the vast majority that have played the game (Elikal has not btw, at least that is what he said a while back). What I find truly amazing is a couple of the reviews coming from self confessed MMO haters that loved the gameplay, story and such. Then there is the people who said they would never buy a game based on Star Wars . . . but changed their minds after playing this game.
There have been a couple of negative reviews that I have seen and I do take them into account, but when the few things they complain about is praised by almost everyone else, I can't help but wonder if some sort of ulterior motive (Sandbox vs themepark, fps vs mathematics, spg vs MMO, console vs computer) exists. A couple of those negative reviews also came from people who admitted to a bias, so those I throw out all together.
I am excited for this game, I admit it. I am also WAITING until I play it though to make MY decision.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I agree 100% with the poster except for it being nearly a good game. It is not. BIOWARE wants in on all the money Blizzard is making. So why not try to take WoW and reskin it as Star Wars!? So that is why you have the same old boring garbage as you saw in the last 10 MMORPGs. Bioware obviously isn't creative and thought that the star wars title alone was enough to get people to want to play. It isn't. I don't want to play something that looks like disney land..and i sure as hell don't want to play a SINGLE PLAYER game online.
This is what happens when you have an MMO like WOW that influences all future MMOs. They turn out to be garbage. What? Were you surprised? I'm sure as hell not. I want Archage to lead the way in MMORPG gaming. TOR? It's utter garbage. The 12 year old WoW lovers can have this crap MMO.
Awesome, you've obviously played the game and are speaking from experience. Please give us all the down and dirty then. Details man . . . DETAILS!
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
errrr...... have you even played the game yet? if u have then fair enough but if not thats an awfully lot of very strong opinions for a game you havent even played
Agreed. This coming from someone claiming to not be a hater of the game AND accusing anyone who disagrees with him of being a fanboy.
That's our Elikal, agonizing himself in knots over what "might be" and what "should be".
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
Thank you for quoting one of the most retarded lines from the idiotic dialogue of the Prequels, because that is really helpfull to show the line of reasoning that both fans and haters like to use. Since all those terms are interchangeable, lets do the same with the argument used here to deny any form of criticism: 'You havnt played it so you dont know'. Good, so then stop being positive right now, delete all the banners, because you can not possibly be excited since you havnt played it yet. Clearly, someone can anticipate in a positive way, but not a in a negative way. But why? Please point this out to me. Elikal just pointed out the things that bother him, which are fully based on anticipation. If any discussion can only follow from handson experience, then we could close these forums right now.
Stop turning every discussion into some kind of battle. Stop acting as if any form of criticism is a direct attack.
Actually I feel it is about the only true reference to the philosophy of the original trilogy. It reiterates the hard lesson learned by Luke when he allows Vader to use his fears to draw him away from Yoda's teaching to save his friends Vader is holding hostage.
Now on to Elikal. He does this with every game he follows. Even when this same subject has been talked to death, usually by him, (mainly because the answer we are looking for relies either on personal opinion, which varies by individual, or on information we don't yet have), he continues to pick at the scabs because he can't defeat his own personal anxiety. Not only does this behavior actually work against his intent and obscure the possibilty of understanding further, it also fills these forums with a multitude of pointless threads.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
There is only one thing which irks me about this game.
There is no confirmation on the most essential question: CAN WE KILL GUNGANS IN LARGE NUMBERS EVERY DAY?
For the rest this game is looking mighty fine. It might not be the reinvention of the wheel some of us had hoped it to be, but it is looking very solid, promising and most definitely not a WoW-clone. If you want to see a real WoW-clone try taking a look at Order and Chaos Online.
errrr...... have you even played the game yet? if u have then fair enough but if not thats an awfully lot of very strong opinions for a game you havent even played
Agreed. This coming from someone claiming to not be a hater of the game AND accusing anyone who disagrees with him of being a fanboy.
That's our Elikal, agonizing himself in knots over what "might be" and what "should be".
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
Thank you for quoting one of the most retarded lines from the idiotic dialogue of the Prequels, because that is really helpfull to show the line of reasoning that both fans and haters like to use. Since all those terms are interchangeable, lets do the same with the argument used here to deny any form of criticism: 'You havnt played it so you dont know'. Good, so then stop being positive right now, delete all the banners, because you can not possibly be excited since you havnt played it yet. Clearly, someone can anticipate in a positive way, but not a in a negative way. But why? Please point this out to me. Elikal just pointed out the things that bother him, which are fully based on anticipation. If any discussion can only follow from handson experience, then we could close these forums right now.
Stop turning every discussion into some kind of battle. Stop acting as if any form of criticism is a direct attack.
Your argument actually has some merit I will agree. What totally kills it for me is the OVERWHELMINGLY good reaction by the vast majority that have played the game (Elikal has not btw, at least that is what he said a while back). What I find truly amazing is a couple of the reviews coming from self confessed MMO haters that loved the gameplay, story and such. Then there is the people who said they would never buy a game based on Star Wars . . . but changed their minds after playing this game.
There have been a couple of negative reviews that I have seen and I do take them into account, but when the few things they complain about is praised by almost everyone else, I can't help but wonder if some sort of ulterior motive (Sandbox vs themepark, fps vs mathematics, spg vs MMO, console vs computer) exists. A couple of those negative reviews also came from people who admitted to a bias, so those I throw out all together.
I am excited for this game, I admit it. I am also WAITING until I play it though to make MY decision.
It will be a good MMO.
Still sad of some too obvious bad design choices and it feels like a bit too much on rails.
" JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes"
You might want to get some new shoes because there are about 11 million people playing a certain game with this content that says otherwise. =P
Just to nit-pick: There are (were?) 11 million people playing a game. That game has a feature. That does not mean there are 11 million people who like that feature.
^This. Not to mention the fact that a large amount of those 11 million players haven't reached end-game, and that as seen in Rift once players hit the endgame they start cancelling subscriptions. Traditiona; endgame is used by most MMORPGs, but it's got a lot of opposition and many players avoid endgame by rerolling characters.
If you're going to argue that "a large amount of those 11 million players haven't reached end-game," then you'll have to accept that the same will be true for TOR. (Why would it be otherwise?) You must then compare what those pre-end-game players do in WoW versus what they will be able to do in TOR, which looks like it may provide a much more in engaging leveling story, not to mention an even larger world and story-based dungeons.
I have a question to the people that seem to have a problem with the end-game - What do you suggest? People love to state what sucks and needs innovation, but very few are prepared to provide said initiative.
I myself have grown tired of the raid/dungeon grind. I recognize that **I** have grown bored of it. It doesn't mean that the model blows, will ultimately fail, and that anyone that likes the model is a douche bag.
Unfortunately the vast majority of companys are willing to copy WoW to the exact style instead of adding to the genre, its the main reason why games like WAR, Rift, Aion and all the rest of the post WoW clones have come up short. I myself have grown bored of the same old tired 'raid or die' or 'instance grind' for gear to do higher tiered content but like you I recognize the model doesnt blow but it is stale and I feel developers could go a long way in adding additional end game elements on top of the WoW style. Such as:
1. DAoC Darkness Falls Open dungeons.
2. Resource control for high tiered crafters.
3. World PvP not based on Objectives but on elements that resemble DAoC's Frontier system. Or better yet a hybrid of Wintergrasp in WoW and Emain Macha in DAoC.
4. Alternate advancement whereby addtional Experince earned after the level cap is used to increase skills and stats, ala a hybrid of Asherons Call skill system, EQ2's AA system and DAoC's RR system.
5. Crafting quests that are epic and takes hours upon hours of discovery, trial and error, and exploring.
6. A mix of instanced based content designed for pre made groups like WoW and open dungeons with traps, puzzles, tough mobs you must use all your available resources to either sneak by in random ways or kill to get to treasure chests at the end on a relatively short timers (under 6 hours) with lesser then normal chance of aquiring loot on par with the current raid model.
7. an Open ended loot system similar to Diablo and Asherons Call. In my system the loot would be as good as raid gear, be easier to aquire for the solo minded casual player but the chances of finding loot that is 'as good as raid loot' would be rare and often times contain undesirable stats (such as a bonus to Caster stats on a 2h sword) but then that player could undertake an heroic journey of exploration and questing to find a rare NPC crafter who would chance the stats to a more desireable one for a huge fee. Or you could also implement a crafting skill that changes stats on gear but the componets to do so are rare and would take lots of farming and grinding giving more incentive for hunting in areas or zones elimanating the traditional stand around in cities waiting on your next dungeon or PvP queue.
8. LOTS World mini bosses on sporadic timers that drop higher then normal quality loot, or guard treasure. A system like this would encourage exploration.
9. Rare random spawning dungeons like in Asherons Call, and once you die your locked out.
These are jsut a small amount of content that could be created foir the players who arent interested in raiding or instance grinding, in other words the vast majority of MMO players. Contrary to any persons belief the overwhelming number of players who spend time in MMO's never see the new raids or could care less about PvP'ing in battlegrounds, this is a fact.
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick
Originally posted by vesavius
Exactly how I feel about the game I have seen.
Nonethekess, it will be massive, and once again will the market have given the very clear signal that it wants quest grind driven themepark games that lack ambition or imagination.
We really only have ourselves to blame for the state of this genre. If wedidnt show them this what sells they would make something else.
Ahh well.
Oh come on, don't be so negative. There's also GW2, TSW, TERA, ArcheAge and other MMO's upcoming, so it's far too early to claim doom and gloom. In fact, I think that we'll see several different MMO designs be successful and exist happily next to eachother. No need for a 'there can be only one!' exclamations when it comes to successful and popular MMO gameplay type.
The problem is most of those are either small developers or Asian styled games who to date have not found a way to draw the Western market. GW2 is the only 1 on the list that remotely intrests me. The Secret World looks good too but I have my doubts in Failcom's track record.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
" JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes"
You might want to get some new shoes because there are about 11 million people playing a certain game with this content that says otherwise. =P
Just to nit-pick: There are (were?) 11 million people playing a game. That game has a feature. That does not mean there are 11 million people who like that feature.
Not only that, and not to nit pickity nit pick still, but there were greater than 11 million that purchased mmorpg boxes over the last several years that left the same games 3-6 months post launch because of the shallow nature, etc. of the games.
Millions more are looking forward to a more robust game than are currently dedicated to any one game. Just saying.
You know what irks me the most about TOR is seeing topic like this that try to explain what might bewrong with a game that isn't released. These type of topics should be made after people have actually played the release version.
Elikal I often enjoy reading what you have to say regardless if I agree or disagree with you but I can not understand how a seasoned gamer like yourself can make up all these things without having played a released version of ST:ToR.
I am not saying you are wrong or right, just saying you should first be able to have played a large portion of SW:ToR before you are able to judge a game you seem able to judge it.
Regardless what I have seen/read/heard SW:Tor shows that it will become a tottally different experiance then most MMORPG but has obvious MMORPG elements we all know.
But please lets try to show people that those of use with gaming experiance will judge games based on actually game time by playing a released version.
Comments
I think it's a shame that developers spend so much time in endgame and so little in the journey. If you spent more resources on making the journey enjoyable players will feel more like replaying the game, thus retaining subscription numbers.
Isn't that what the new MMO's are doing, SWTOR with its story immersive questing and high replayability, GW2 with Personal Story and DE's, and TSW with its no-levels and VO/cinematic mission quests?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Yes, but neither of these games are out and we don't know how any of these design decisions turn out.
I said "out" twice in the same sentence.
And I believe that SWTOR is still implenting Raids and Tiered Gear Progression.
I think there should be dungeons and PvP instances. If people like it they should do it. But I want more...
There could be epic quests, AA, crafting, world PvP. Rewards that you get when you explore the world and find something rare.
But I dont know if there is any official statement that claims the only option at max level will be to grind instances to get gear. Perhaps when the game is released we will learn that there are other options.
The same old game in a new box. What is my take on anything this big? Simple, you got fanboys defending it through their teeth, and you got fanboys enraged by how cheaply developed some parts are. Simple overview, if anything is like in the videos I will not pay for the game. I'll play if you buy me time and the game copy, but I won't waste my money on this. I never wasted money on Rift, and I waited for the free trial to find out the game sucked. If Bioware will release a free trial or a free play period then I'll try the game out, otherwise no. The subscription doesn't justify for me to pay a box price and have fun with a game soo underweighted.
What game do I want to play? Guild Wars 2, Terra, Blade and Soul, ect. I got sick when I logged into Anima aka Prius Online and that was a "emotional" mmorpg with supposedly a epic storyline. It killed it for me. I know crap when I see it, and this TOR is crap in a new box. Yeah, I don't count as playing it, nor do I have a major beef with the game. It was a let down when the developers opened their mouths to promise crap they won't come through on. TBH, I don't think it was fair to say anything they ever showed held my interest. I take a look to DCUO, and many other games that promise those big guns.
They have nice CGI trailers and a good fanbase, but it'll turn out the same. We defend and attack, but when it comes down to it, this is just a fad that we will get over with in 6 months or less. Sure, congrats that you and your guild had some fun on here being heros of the Sith Empire. You can have just as much innovative fun on Habbo Hotel as you can have in this game. Sad part is, most of you justify your excuse to defend or attack it. I justify that something like this isn't worth my money.
I am a big fan of Star Wars and Lord Of The Rings, and even Guild Wars. The thing that kills each game I play is simple. Community, fun and interaction, and how repetitive it is. They didn't even try to give me something to keep playing here, or even give me a reason to justify $50+$15 monthly. I don't want the moon, and I have posted a lot about what to give people and people like me to make replay value. Bioware didn't deliver, but ArenaNet atleast tried to deliver. It made my decision for me, and I can justify it. I get more for my money with Guild Wars 2, and I will not subscribe to a game unless they give me my justification. I want simple things, things that Guild Wars 2 tries to offer.
Will I quit Guild Wars 2? Hell yeah, if it gets boring then yeah. They can only go so far, and when I reach it, I'll quit and move on.
I am not negative about everything, only things that make me feel that way... I speak pretty positively about a lot of games here, if I play them or not.
It's just what I have seen of this so far of this title dosent inspire anything but negativity in me so far
My hope is that AA,and GW2 in a different way, can show the industry there is a thirst for bolder, more imaginative, more inspired games, but there is no escaping that this will sell tons and that alone will be taken as a clear indicator of what the market wants.
Ya know, if you go into a new game grudgeingly and already this pessimistic, you are pretty much dooming yourself to not like it. Especially if you hate the graphics, I mean you are going to be looking at them the whole time you play. If you really dislike the graphics rather than being say, indifferent, why put yourself through it? You will then either hate yourself for wasting money and being 'fooled/lied to' and/or hate the developer/publisher/guild/friends who 'fooled/lied to' you.
Just take a step back and ask yourself why you are even playing these games. Especially ones you seem to have so much problems with. if you want things to change, STOP BUYING EVERY SINGLE MMO THAT COMES OUT! you are only telling developers that you want MORE of what they have been doing.
I do agree with the OP. As far as we can judge right now this game is a medicore product to boot. Especialy i you consider the ammount of money that they put in it.
All of the game aspects except the story seem bland and unatractive... And when you consider how the other upcomming MMOs are at least trying to inovate (TERA, Blade and Soul, GW2) it does make Bioware look flat in comparison . As the OP i'm still going to atleast try it but its mostly because of Star Wars and Bioware. If there were no lightsabers i would propabbly skip over it as another EQ/WoW-same-old-thing.
As for the story goes... There was AoCs tortage and main character quest so its not as it wasn't tried before...
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I'm a hot-wired, heat-seeking, warm-hearted cool customer; voice-activated and bio-degradable.
RIP George Carlin.
I agree with you on GW2, I don't know anything about Blade & Soul so if you have information about it, that's welcome, but I disagree on TERA. Nothing bad to say about TERA, but so far the only thing in TERA that I see that's innovative is the combat mechanics, the rest is all familiar themepark design. Could you elaborate on what else they're trying to innovate? I heard about the political system, but I also understand that hasn't been implemented yet.
As for SWTOR, I agree it won't win prices for being majorly innovative: yet, the way the questing is revamped, things like Companions, the crafting and the cover system are imo certainly innovations or a big difference from the familiar.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
errrr...... have you even played the game yet? if u have then fair enough but if not thats an awfully lot of very strong opinions for a game you havent even played
If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
That's our Elikal, agonizing himself in knots over what "might be" and what "should be".
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I agree 100% with the poster except for it being nearly a good game. It is not. BIOWARE wants in on all the money Blizzard is making. So why not try to take WoW and reskin it as Star Wars!? So that is why you have the same old boring garbage as you saw in the last 10 MMORPGs. Bioware obviously isn't creative and thought that the star wars title alone was enough to get people to want to play. It isn't. I don't want to play something that looks like disney land..and i sure as hell don't want to play a SINGLE PLAYER game online.
This is what happens when you have an MMO like WOW that influences all future MMOs. They turn out to be garbage. What? Were you surprised? I'm sure as hell not. I want Archage to lead the way in MMORPG gaming. TOR? It's utter garbage. The 12 year old WoW lovers can have this crap MMO.
Your argument actually has some merit I will agree. What totally kills it for me is the OVERWHELMINGLY good reaction by the vast majority that have played the game (Elikal has not btw, at least that is what he said a while back). What I find truly amazing is a couple of the reviews coming from self confessed MMO haters that loved the gameplay, story and such. Then there is the people who said they would never buy a game based on Star Wars . . . but changed their minds after playing this game.
There have been a couple of negative reviews that I have seen and I do take them into account, but when the few things they complain about is praised by almost everyone else, I can't help but wonder if some sort of ulterior motive (Sandbox vs themepark, fps vs mathematics, spg vs MMO, console vs computer) exists. A couple of those negative reviews also came from people who admitted to a bias, so those I throw out all together.
I am excited for this game, I admit it. I am also WAITING until I play it though to make MY decision.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Awesome, you've obviously played the game and are speaking from experience. Please give us all the down and dirty then. Details man . . . DETAILS!
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Actually I feel it is about the only true reference to the philosophy of the original trilogy. It reiterates the hard lesson learned by Luke when he allows Vader to use his fears to draw him away from Yoda's teaching to save his friends Vader is holding hostage.
Now on to Elikal. He does this with every game he follows. Even when this same subject has been talked to death, usually by him, (mainly because the answer we are looking for relies either on personal opinion, which varies by individual, or on information we don't yet have), he continues to pick at the scabs because he can't defeat his own personal anxiety. Not only does this behavior actually work against his intent and obscure the possibilty of understanding further, it also fills these forums with a multitude of pointless threads.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
There is only one thing which irks me about this game.
There is no confirmation on the most essential question: CAN WE KILL GUNGANS IN LARGE NUMBERS EVERY DAY?
For the rest this game is looking mighty fine. It might not be the reinvention of the wheel some of us had hoped it to be, but it is looking very solid, promising and most definitely not a WoW-clone. If you want to see a real WoW-clone try taking a look at Order and Chaos Online.
It will be a good MMO.
Still sad of some too obvious bad design choices and it feels like a bit too much on rails.
If you're going to argue that "a large amount of those 11 million players haven't reached end-game," then you'll have to accept that the same will be true for TOR. (Why would it be otherwise?) You must then compare what those pre-end-game players do in WoW versus what they will be able to do in TOR, which looks like it may provide a much more in engaging leveling story, not to mention an even larger world and story-based dungeons.
I have to be the only person on earth who isn't in the beta of this game, and i actually want to play it.
You're not alone; I'm not in the beta either. However, we might get in soon as they are supposedly ramping up the scale of the game testing.
Unfortunately the vast majority of companys are willing to copy WoW to the exact style instead of adding to the genre, its the main reason why games like WAR, Rift, Aion and all the rest of the post WoW clones have come up short. I myself have grown bored of the same old tired 'raid or die' or 'instance grind' for gear to do higher tiered content but like you I recognize the model doesnt blow but it is stale and I feel developers could go a long way in adding additional end game elements on top of the WoW style. Such as:
1. DAoC Darkness Falls Open dungeons.
2. Resource control for high tiered crafters.
3. World PvP not based on Objectives but on elements that resemble DAoC's Frontier system. Or better yet a hybrid of Wintergrasp in WoW and Emain Macha in DAoC.
4. Alternate advancement whereby addtional Experince earned after the level cap is used to increase skills and stats, ala a hybrid of Asherons Call skill system, EQ2's AA system and DAoC's RR system.
5. Crafting quests that are epic and takes hours upon hours of discovery, trial and error, and exploring.
6. A mix of instanced based content designed for pre made groups like WoW and open dungeons with traps, puzzles, tough mobs you must use all your available resources to either sneak by in random ways or kill to get to treasure chests at the end on a relatively short timers (under 6 hours) with lesser then normal chance of aquiring loot on par with the current raid model.
7. an Open ended loot system similar to Diablo and Asherons Call. In my system the loot would be as good as raid gear, be easier to aquire for the solo minded casual player but the chances of finding loot that is 'as good as raid loot' would be rare and often times contain undesirable stats (such as a bonus to Caster stats on a 2h sword) but then that player could undertake an heroic journey of exploration and questing to find a rare NPC crafter who would chance the stats to a more desireable one for a huge fee. Or you could also implement a crafting skill that changes stats on gear but the componets to do so are rare and would take lots of farming and grinding giving more incentive for hunting in areas or zones elimanating the traditional stand around in cities waiting on your next dungeon or PvP queue.
8. LOTS World mini bosses on sporadic timers that drop higher then normal quality loot, or guard treasure. A system like this would encourage exploration.
9. Rare random spawning dungeons like in Asherons Call, and once you die your locked out.
These are jsut a small amount of content that could be created foir the players who arent interested in raiding or instance grinding, in other words the vast majority of MMO players. Contrary to any persons belief the overwhelming number of players who spend time in MMO's never see the new raids or could care less about PvP'ing in battlegrounds, this is a fact.
Originally posted by vesavius
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Not only that, and not to nit pickity nit pick still, but there were greater than 11 million that purchased mmorpg boxes over the last several years that left the same games 3-6 months post launch because of the shallow nature, etc. of the games.
Millions more are looking forward to a more robust game than are currently dedicated to any one game. Just saying.
You know what irks me the most about TOR is seeing topic like this that try to explain what might bewrong with a game that isn't released. These type of topics should be made after people have actually played the release version.
Elikal I often enjoy reading what you have to say regardless if I agree or disagree with you but I can not understand how a seasoned gamer like yourself can make up all these things without having played a released version of ST:ToR.
I am not saying you are wrong or right, just saying you should first be able to have played a large portion of SW:ToR before you are able to judge a game you seem able to judge it.
Regardless what I have seen/read/heard SW:Tor shows that it will become a tottally different experiance then most MMORPG but has obvious MMORPG elements we all know.
But please lets try to show people that those of use with gaming experiance will judge games based on actually game time by playing a released version.