- Combat: This combat is so like Everquest from 10 years ago! Stand there, shoot around and repeat.
Sad but not surprised, BioWare games are known to be average on the combat part. The biggest issue is seeing characters shooting at each others with laser weapons standing in the open. Or even worse like troopers rushing a ranged armed NPC to kick it with his weapon.
=> Reason is suits "knows" MMO and RPG players can't adapt to FPS game play
- Quests: Yes, there is Granny Sithlord telling you 5 minutes about her life and her elaborate background story and then you have the choice to say something nice or something mean (huzzah!) but in those remaining 95% of the game you still will walk around with a shopping list and kill the 10 womprats in Granny Sithlord's cellar and she's going to reward you with a nice womprat-pie STR+10 for 60 min.
VO story will be fun the first time you run it and (reality check = AoC Tortage) soon you'll wish you could totally skip it without even needing to hit space bar. VO will be fun when wandering around waiting for your friends to log in and join you in your errands.
- Endgame: So the truth is out. Endgame is WOW. Period.
I'm relieved I thought it was rolling an alt.
- No Sandbox whatsoever: When TOR was announced, the Bioware devs said TOR was going to be no Sandbox and no Themepark, but a mix of both. It was a lie. TOR is a 100% Themepark and entirely DEVOID of ANY Sandbox elements!
It's been a long long time since we knew it, not even disappointed anymore. Still sad they intentedly left the non combat oriented players at the door of the party.
I know it will come over as rant, and it prolly is. But now that most of the cards have been revealed I can't help but feel let down. I mean, sure it will be a nice and decend game. I am going to play it a while. But why Bioware aimed for so little in so many core areas... it's something I just don't get why.
Same I intend to pre-order the CE edition. However not ure I will even pass the 1st month mark
Few things to add:
BioWare do know the space shooter is a miss.
The heroic proportions are far from pleasing the majority of the players
Wow in space: we have blood elves, warlock suits and huge shoulder pads.
Crafting looks unappealing : select companion - click button to have them automatically do something - get results
PvP warfronts: (for now) limited to 8 vs 8. Look very small.
Boss fight is indeed many players against one boss. Who said heroic yet?
Top of that some of the features that we know won't make the game (at least at launch):
Swimming
Third party addons
Minigames like Pazaak, Sabac or Holo-chess
Dual spec
Day/night cycles
Non humanoid based playable races
Multiplayer space content
3d space combat
Choice of space ship chassis
Decoration mechanic for personal ships
Pod racing
Player bounties
Companions in Warzones
Companions body/race customization.
Animal based pet classes
Resources for crafting does not have quality
Guild leveling system
Animal mounts
Planetary housing
Not confirmed:
Appearance tabs
Gear Dyes?
Display pets?
=> Remove SW from the title of the game and think about it.
Damn that is depressing list to read.
I can't wait for this turd of an mmo to flop, and it will the writing is on the wall already....
Hopefully the next generation of mmo's like ArcheAge, Everquest 3 and World of Darkness will get things back on the right track.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Just keep in mind, most of it is just from sandbox fans who want an SWG2 or other sandbox MMO's or players who cannot enjoy most MMO's anymore, having burnt out on themepark features and requiring something completely different or innovative to still feel any MMO enjoyment at all.
dude, thats like everyone. especially after WoW. do you even understand the MMO scene today? the real truth is everyone just wants a fun game. many want something new and interesting. i was never a big sandbox fan, having played EVE for 5 years and no longer playing, i always have a bone to pick with that game.
your arguments are getting super old. there's nothing wrong with themeparks. GW2 will be a themepark 100%. but it will be one constructed in an engaging manner to bring the population together. i have about 15 beefs with TOR, but my #1 beef is that it's essentially a single player RPG game, with a tacked on multiplayer component. in fact, TOR will be worse off than WoW in this respect because it will have LESS instance and raid content, while having MORE single player content.
so TOR is going to be a letdown for more people than you think. jaded MMO'ers, sandboxers, pvp'ers, raiders (arguably), the next best thingers, everyone except a group of SW fans.
dude, thats like everyone. especially after WoW. do you even understand the MMO scene today? the real truth is everyone just wants a fun game. many want something new and interesting. i was never a big sandbox fan, having played EVE for 5 years and no longer playing, i always have a bone to pick with that game.
your arguments are getting super old. there's nothing wrong with themeparks. GW2 will be a themepark 100%. but it will be one constructed in an engaging manner to bring the population together. i have about 15 beefs with TOR, but my #1 beef is that it's essentially a single player RPG game, with a tacked on multiplayer component. in fact, TOR will be worse off than WoW in this respect because it will have LESS instance and raid content, while having MORE single player content.
so TOR is going to be a letdown for more people than you think. jaded MMO'ers, sandboxers, pvp'ers, raiders (arguably), the next best thingers, everyone except a group of SW fans.
Let's add some common sense into the discussion, shall we?
How many people do you think are playing MMORPG's right now, these past few months? And how many of those are playing MMO's that have the same gameplay mechanics that you claim is old or not fun anymore?
You may go bashing all other MMO's that aren't GW2 all you like, not that anyone can stop you with that, but surely you're able to see that a lot of MMO gamers are still having fun with the kind of gameplay that you hate.
Else everyone would be playing Xsyon, or Global Agenda or Perpetuum Online, or Final Fantasy XIV, or Earthrise.
Instead the majority of MMO gamers is playing WoW, and Rift, and Aion, and LotrO and other MMO's like those. Yep, all MMO's with the kind of gameplay that you dislike and hate. But, not everyone has your taste, and this site hardly counts, I bet that most complainers here aren't even playing MMO's right now or maybe only sporadically, so they don't count in those millions that are playing MMO games right now.
So, I think I have a pretty accurate picture of the current MMO scene, not some imaginary one but founded by hard figures. So I return the question: do you even understand the MMO scene today, or are you just seeing what you want to see?
You're right in 1 thing though, everyone wants a fun game. You're wrong in that this means that everyone should or does have the same taste in what's fun to them as you. Tastes and preferences differ, you know, get used to it, it applies to everything in life.
Originally posted by NeVeRLiFt
Hopefully the next generation of mmo's like ArcheAge, Everquest 3 and World of Darkness will get things back on the right track.
Sorry to disappoint you. You'll have to wait and be MMO homeless for at least a year longer if those 3 are the only ones that rock your socks. But hey, instead of playing MMO's and have fun with them like other MMO gamers you can still have fun hanging out on MMO forums while waiting for that MMO that's perfect for your taste to arrive
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
-Graphics - I like their art style, but then I have a fairly broad taste in graphics. I really like it for a MMO to be able to scale graphics quality well. I really hate low frame rates. I also never expect state of the art fps (shooter) quality graphics.
-Combat - I dont expect much of it. The fun factor here for me will be blasters and lightsabers, not the combat system.
-Filler quests - Pretty much what I expected from devs that made no secret that they set WoW as example.
-Endgame - Not interested at all in this. It wont be the reason why I will play TOR.
-PVP - Gearbased PVP. No thank you. Also no reason for me to play TOR.
- No sandbox - That was known from the start and I wasnt expecting this either. Bioware makes slightly linear immersive storydriven RPG's. For freedom in a rpg, check out Bethesda
My reason to play is an immersive storydriven KOTOR online I can play with my friends now and hopefully the classbased stories will also give me reason to roll alts. Any additional MMO feature that will entertain me, is just a bonus to me. If it turns out to be just a few months of fun, Ill be in time for Guild Wars 2 release
dude, thats like everyone. especially after WoW. do you even understand the MMO scene today? the real truth is everyone just wants a fun game. many want something new and interesting. i was never a big sandbox fan, having played EVE for 5 years and no longer playing, i always have a bone to pick with that game.
your arguments are getting super old. there's nothing wrong with themeparks. GW2 will be a themepark 100%. but it will be one constructed in an engaging manner to bring the population together. i have about 15 beefs with TOR, but my #1 beef is that it's essentially a single player RPG game, with a tacked on multiplayer component. in fact, TOR will be worse off than WoW in this respect because it will have LESS instance and raid content, while having MORE single player content.
so TOR is going to be a letdown for more people than you think. jaded MMO'ers, sandboxers, pvp'ers, raiders (arguably), the next best thingers, everyone except a group of SW fans.
Let's add some common sense into the discussion, shall we?
How many people do you think are playing MMORPG's right now, these past few months? And how many of those are playing MMO's that have the same gameplay mechanics that you claim is old or not fun anymore?
You may go GW2 fanboish all you want and bash all other MMO's that aren't GW2 all you like, not that anyone can stop you with that, but surely you're able to see that a lot of MMO gamers are still having fun with the kind of gameplay that you hate.
Else everyone would be playing Xsyon, or Global Agenda or Perpetuum Online, or Final Fantasy XIV, or Earthrise.
Instead the majority of MMO gamers is playing WoW, and Rift, and Aion, and LotrO and other MMO's like those. Yep, all MMO's with the kind of gameplay that you dislike and hate. But, not everyone has your taste, and this site hardly counts, I bet that most complainers here aren't even playing MMO's right now or maybe only sporadically, so they don't count in those millions that are playing MMO games right now.
So, I think I have a pretty accurate picture of the current MMO scene, not some imaginary one but founded by hard figures. So I return the question: do you even understand the MMO scene today, or are you just seeing what you want to see?
The vast majority of mmo enthusiasts are not playing an mmo today. Their still waiting for their mmo to arrive. Shown by millions of mmo boxes sold/downloaded, only to have 1/6th of the subscribership base 3-6 months out.
And WoW is not a mmorpg, but a social network facebook game, so its' use in comparisons are alwaus mute.
It's the same old 'fan boy' versus 'hater' song and dance.
Whether you think the game will be good or bad, reserve judgement of the game for when it's actually released and people can actually play the whole thing and form decisions about the game's quality based on first hand experience.
Keep in mind though, it's better to be cautious and then surprised by a game turning out well, than to be swept up in the hype only to end up let down if it bombs.
So what irks you about ToR is that it's not sandbox?
I know you quickly tried to make a statement for not being a hater, but it's clear that you are. People that aren't in either corner are just waiting to play the game. You, however, go on to make comments about the gameplay, endgame, and questing, like you've played it.
I'll wait till I play the game, not hear some bitter nerd blog about what he played for 10 minutes at a convention. As for the graphics, I used to play text video games, so really I don't see what all the complaining about graphics is. It's mostly the younger generation that likes to epeen with their 'tricked out' computer setups that worries about this imo. The graphics are like that to be playable on lower end machines (ie one of the main things WoW did right).
I'm sorry you feel like it's mediocore. Really though, not having played it, I'm not so sure you can really feel so definitive about your subjective opinion. I on the other hand am reserving my bashing or praising till I play the game.
The heroic proportions are far from pleasing the majority of the players
Wow in space: we have blood elves, warlock suits and huge shoulder pads.
Crafting looks unappealing : select companion - click button to have them automatically do something - get results
PvP warfronts: (for now) limited to 8 vs 8. Look very small.
Boss fight is indeed many players against one boss. Who said heroic yet?
Top of that some of the features that we know won't make the game (at least at launch):
Swimming
Third party addons
Minigames like Pazaak, Sabac or Holo-chess
Dual spec
Day/night cycles
Non humanoid based playable races
Multiplayer space content
3d space combat
Choice of space ship chassis
Decoration mechanic for personal ships
Pod racing
Player bounties
Companions in Warzones
Companions body/race customization.
Animal based pet classes
Resources for crafting does not have quality
Guild leveling system
Animal mounts
Planetary housing
Not confirmed:
Appearance tabs
Gear Dyes?
Display pets?
=> Remove SW from the title of the game and think about it
This fellow essentially said all that needs to be said from my side of the fence, and this discussion is getting less civil with every post, so I'm going to /support this post and get out before things get out of hand. Was good talking to you folks, but it's turned into yet another fanboy vs hater debate, and I don't fall into either.
The vast majority of mmo enthusiasts are not playing an mmo today. Their still waiting for their mmo to arrive. Shown by millions of mmo boxes sold/downloaded, only to have 1/6th of the subscribership base 3-6 months out.
And WoW is not a mmorpg, but a social network facebook game, so its' use in comparisons are alwaus mute.
Thank you.
Lol. You're right, WoW doesn't count - apparently it isn't an MMORPG - and Rift doesn't count and LotrO doesn't count and Aion doesn't count - presumably because 1 million+ Asian gamers don't count - and all those other MMO gamers playing the MMO they like don't count as well. There are more people playing MMO's than ever before, but they don't count as well. Good point
Originally posted by sonoggi
no wonder you think of the official TOR forums as a safe haven...everyone there is a fan of the game, thus there's no real reason to be objective about it. your arguments on these forums are always welcome (albeit lulzworthy), but rest assured all kinds of gamers frequent these forums, not just fans of certain games.
Not surprisingly at all you're drawing the wrong conclusions. I was talking about how threads in the SWTOR forumsection on mmorpg.com are more entertaining to hang around in because of the large amount of fallacies, sandbox fans and jaded, burnt out MMO vets hanging around venting their dissatisfaction with the current MMO genre and SWTOR as one of its standard bearer than other gameforum sections here on mmorpg.com, not other sites (wrong conclusion of you there).
Oh, did you know that I'm actually looking forward more to a GW2 and a TSW than an SWTOR, or that I also look forward to AA, WoD and Firefall? Just saying
Originally posted by Ceridith
Whether you think the game will be good or bad, reserve judgement of the game for when it's actually released and people can actually play the whole thing and form decisions about the game's quality based on first hand experience.
Keep in mind though, it's better to be cautious and then surprised by a game turning out well, than to be swept up in the hype only to end up let down if it bombs.
In contrast to 'haters' with their quick-judge decision forming I myself have a pretty good picture of what to expect, combined with a firm 'wait and see' attitude. I know this is hard for haters/critics to understand, but you can be enthusiastic or interested in a game without getting swept away by any hype.
At the same time, I'm aware that you can be critical or sceptic of a game without being a 'hater', I've no problem with that and even find such discussions refreshing. However, I find that I have little respect for those that keep quick-judging and bashing a game with sensationalism, half-truths and gut-feeling biased reasoning, which at its core only camouflage their general dissatisfaction and frustration with the MMO scene in general.
I have no qualms with debunking those fallacies and false, emotionally fueled arguments at all
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
dude, thats like everyone. especially after WoW. do you even understand the MMO scene today? the real truth is everyone just wants a fun game. many want something new and interesting. i was never a big sandbox fan, having played EVE for 5 years and no longer playing, i always have a bone to pick with that game.
your arguments are getting super old. there's nothing wrong with themeparks. GW2 will be a themepark 100%. but it will be one constructed in an engaging manner to bring the population together. i have about 15 beefs with TOR, but my #1 beef is that it's essentially a single player RPG game, with a tacked on multiplayer component. in fact, TOR will be worse off than WoW in this respect because it will have LESS instance and raid content, while having MORE single player content.
so TOR is going to be a letdown for more people than you think. jaded MMO'ers, sandboxers, pvp'ers, raiders (arguably), the next best thingers, everyone except a group of SW fans.
Let's add some common sense into the discussion, shall we?
How many people do you think are playing MMORPG's right now, these past few months? And how many of those are playing MMO's that have the same gameplay mechanics that you claim is old or not fun anymore?
You may go GW2 fanboish all you want and bash all other MMO's that aren't GW2 all you like, not that anyone can stop you with that, but surely you're able to see that a lot of MMO gamers are still having fun with the kind of gameplay that you hate.
Else everyone would be playing Xsyon, or Global Agenda or Perpetuum Online, or Final Fantasy XIV, or Earthrise.
Instead the majority of MMO gamers is playing WoW, and Rift, and Aion, and LotrO and other MMO's like those. Yep, all MMO's with the kind of gameplay that you dislike and hate. But, not everyone has your taste, and this site hardly counts, I bet that most complainers here aren't even playing MMO's right now or maybe only sporadically, so they don't count in those millions that are playing MMO games right now.
So, I think I have a pretty accurate picture of the current MMO scene, not some imaginary one but founded by hard figures. So I return the question: do you even understand the MMO scene today, or are you just seeing what you want to see?
The vast majority of mmo enthusiasts are not playing an mmo today. Their still waiting for their mmo to arrive. Shown by millions of mmo boxes sold/downloaded, only to have 1/6th of the subscribership base 3-6 months out.
And WoW is not a mmorpg, but a social network facebook game, so its' use in comparisons are alwaus mute.
Thank you.
The minute you said WoW was not an mmo was the minute your ego push commonsense out the window. Like it or not, more credible people would define WoW a classic mmo by any means than not. And the mere fact that you think socializing and networking are not part of a mmo's main M.O. is futher proof of how clouded your judgement is.
Next time try to seperate the issue you have with WoW from the issue you seem to have with what WoW means to the MMO scene. Then we can have a more reasonable conversation about a scene that's bigger than both you and me (any everyone else on mmorpg.com for that matter).
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Hopefully the next generation of mmo's like ArcheAge, Everquest 3 and World of Darkness will get things back on the right track.
Ill tell ya right now thats not going to happen.
people have been saying this for as long as i have been playing MMOs (almost 10 years now). The fact of the matter is that most people that have been playing MMOs long enough that they know exactly what they want or what kind of game they would like are chasing unicorns, that game they are waiting for is never going to exist. and the "right track" in your opinion is not the same as the "right track" in the developers/publishers opinion, i can guarantee you that much
most people that have been playing long enough to know exaclty what they want are jaded by the norm. the problem is the norm is what the vast majority of subscriber want, so they are the ones that the games are being developed for, not us (yes ... us ... im not thrilled about grinding instances for gear and killing 4000 jawas to hit my next level, but i accept that im the minority and i have to deal with it)
there is nothing would love more than for TOR to be the best MMO on the market at its release, but im not hopeful thats going to happen, all i hope is that its good enough that i can play it and be entertain long enough for it to become a top tier game, or until something else comes on the market that i have any interest in playing
You know what irks me the most about TOR, it's the damn mediocrity on the most expensive title of all times. I mean, I really do not count myself in the hater corner; though if you totally adore every thing from TOR, it prolly looks like that relatively from where you are standing. I mean, I am sure story and decisions are cool and several other aspects and decisions are as well. But as we get closer to launch and more and more details become visible... I am just again confirmed how much TOR is mediocre in almost every other aspect than story.
And I wonder how this can be? I mean, if you invest SO MANY dollars, now matter how many exactly, and if you make the next STAR WARS MMO... don't YOU expect... I dunno... more? I mean, come on. It's EA, Bioware, Starwars and tons of dollars... and this is it? I am really not saying I hate TOR. I am 100% going to buy it and likely play at least one or two class stories through. But everything is so average.
- Graphics: It remains one of my biggest complains, and even if you tell me 1000 times they don't look so bad. No they do not! But they do NOT look breathtaking either. I mean we get so many impressions that the visuals look "competent but hardly breathtaking" (gameindustry.biz) and similar stuff like "if it weren't Star Wars it would be less impressive". (Massively) And that is what I see too. You know, if *I* were in the seat to make the next big MMO, the next Star Wars, dammit, I would make the frigging BEST TOP NOTCH visuals possible! Graphics to make people wet their pants and kick them out of the shoes! Visuals to REALLY REALLY impress. Think of Crysis! Or heck, think of Witcher 2! (Just for a minute compare the lush details of Witcher 2 with the lackluster, sterile world of Dragon Age 2!) I just don't get it why Bioware made just.... this? I mean, again, it's not bad, but surely nothing to write home about in terms of graphics.
- Combat: It's just the same critique as with graphics. They look ok. But dagnabit, it's Star Wars, it that 100-300 million dollar game and THAT'S IT? Thats the best combat you could come up with? I mean, again, it's ok. But the repetitive pew pew and the nailed to the ground mobs really isn't kicking me out of my shoes. And blast for that huge game, for Star Wars, for a really Triple A... this combat is just lame. I am sorry to say if that hurts your feeling, but it's true. And again, I wonder how that could happen? I mean, they have all the money, they have good people they have TIME, and this is all? This combat is so like Everquest from 10 years ago! Stand there, shoot around and repeat. There is nothing new or inspired in this combat at all. It's just a Starwarsy WOW sort of combat. Stand there, shoot your abilities, rinse repeat.
- Quests: Way back one of the SWTOR developer said, that we are NEVER going on such mundane quests like kill 10 rats in TOR. Never. And now if you look at the quests, it's EXACTLY like that. Yes, there is Granny Sithlord telling you 5 minutes about her life and her elaborate background story and then you have the choice to say something nice or something mean (huzzah!) but in those remaining 95% of the game you still will walk around with a shopping list and kill the 10 womprats in Granny Sithlord's cellar and she's going to reward you with a nice womprat-pie STR+10 for 60 min. I mean, what happened to this promise that we never will go to such mundane tasks? That ALL quests are going to be epic and heroic? PUFF... vanished like dew in the morning. I mean, heck, I know MMOs will always have such quests, and I didn't believe that one moment. Only that TOR is again SO average, so Everquestish. I mean, look at GW2 and the dynamic content. No matter how that will play out, at least they ATTEMPT to make something different than the neanderthal age formula of farming 10 rats standing there! And with such a budget I'd just expect more than that.
- Endgame: So the truth is out. Endgame is WOW. Period. I mean, maybe they still have a few aces up their sleeves, but from here it looked pretty much like WOW Endgame. Grind Raids and grind dungeons for Gear of Tier1,2,3 asf. ad nauseam. Yes, they have story. Someone will tell you a cool story why you are there, and that sure is cool and fascinating for the first 2 or 3 times. Of the 2000 times you are going to grind that dungeon for your Tier 3 gearset.
- No Sandbox whatsoever: When TOR was announced, the Bioware devs said TOR was going to be no Sandbox and no Themepark, but a mix of both. It was a lie. TOR is a 100% Themepark and entirely DEVOID of ANY Sandbox elements! I mean, I love themepark questing, but to keep people playing a game in the long run, JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes. And what better to keep people entertained a longer time, as to add *some* sandbox elements. But truth is, unless we are yet to hear surprises: They ain't there. You have your story quests and the rest is figleaf-there. There is figleaf space, figleaf-crafting, figleaf-hosuing and the game is almost entirely empty of anything NOT involving killing stuff. And Sandbox elements just remain the best receipe for longevity! I mean, what am I do to otherwise if my 200 hours class story are over?
I know it will come over as rant, and it prolly is. But now that most of the cards have been revealed I can't help but feel let down. I mean, sure it will be a nice and decend game. I am going to play it a while. But why Bioware aimed for so little in so many core areas... it's something I just don't get why.
What's amsuing to me is that after this long thread. The vast majority of posters will buy and play TOR just for the story alone. Even though they think it will be a typical themepark MMO. So I guess everyone will find out about game play by the usuall way. They will play the game. Isn't that a good thing?
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
Its sad to see people trash each other on these boards and in the same breath talk about how important community is in an mmo.
You know, I've been thinking that too.
What's even more intriguing is that the people that call out the most how community is important and that sandbox MMO's are far better in that, are also the ones who are the most intolerant towards others who don't share their tastes and preferences, and the most vindictive and persistently agressive in attacking those.
I was pretty neutral regarding the sandbox MMO playerbase in general before I started visiting this site, but I'll be honest and say that if the sandbox fans on this site are any current indication of how the sandbox crowd will be in (semi) sandbox MMO's like ArcheAge, then that's a major negative to me. I don't see a healthy, constructive and tolerant community rising from it, despite all the big words how sandbox MMO's are more community oriented
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick Originally posted by Foomerang Its sad to see people trash each other on these boards and in the same breath talk about how important community is in an mmo.
You know, I've been thinking that too. What's even more intriguing is that the people that call out the most how community is important and that sandbox MMO's are far better in that, are also the ones who are the most intolerant towards others who don't share their tastes and preferences, and the most vindictive and persistently agressive in attacking those. I was pretty neutral regarding the sandbox MMO playerbase in general before I started visiting this site, but I'll be honest and say that if the sandbox fans on this site are any current indication of how the sandbox crowd will be in (semi) sandbox MMO's like ArcheAge, then that's a major negative to me. I don't see a healthy, constructive and tolerant community rising from it, despite all the big words how sandbox MMO's are more community oriented
Hmm, maybe a topic for a new thread. /offtopic Im less disturbed by the sandbox nazis and more disturbed by the traditional mmo haters who are here to enlighten us. I blame Anet's ad campaign, but that is DEFINITELY offtopic heh.
I am not a SWToR apologist as I have no intention to play the game for a month or 2 at the most to experience the storyline of 1 maybe 2 classes. The other junk that litters this title is the same thing I have played for the last 6 years in WoW and untill I hear any deviation from what we already know the endgame will be like (i.e. Raids and instanced dungeon grinding and the reliance on gating content via gear tiers) then I agree with most of what you say however I will point out I think you're flawed in one arguement. I do think you're spot on in everything else though.
1. The graphics are the way they are and are to allow the most amount of players to buy and play the game much like WoW does with their graphics, besides I think most true MMO players care more for the content and possibly story then the GFX. I myself went back to Asherons Call after a 6 year hiatus to dabble in the king of all themepark adventures and the first few days I was back I almost wanted to quit due to the bad graphics but shortly after I got acustomed to them again I quickly realized how much more fun I have in AC then I did in WoW. Besides theres a reason why theres an old adage in the MMO world thats called "graphics does not make the game"
Originally posted by greenbow54
I think what pisses off people on this site the most about SWTOR is that its not Star Eve Ultima Wars Galaxies Online.
What really gets me...is that the game doesn't have a release date and people are so definitive about how some of the features are, and how bad the game fails already..
As opposed to Star World of Riftcraft the Old Everquest? I think this style of MMO has been beeten to death and its tiring to see the same philosophy that is so stale and old to be continued to be developed whe ntheir are masses of people waiting to play an MMO thats designed on adventure, exploration and innovative combat.
Originally posted by Temujin2011
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick
Just keep in mind, most of it is just from sandbox fans who want an SWG2 or other sandbox MMO's or players who cannot enjoy most MMO's anymore, having burnt out on themepark features and requiring something completely different or innovative to still feel any MMO enjoyment at all. A lot of these people have been without an MMO or been unable to enjoy any MMO for years.
It's obvious that SWTOR isn't a game for them and they dislike it for that, but their frustration and dissatisfaction runs far deeper than just SWTOR and is more towards the MMO scene as it is. SWTOR is just their channel and focus point for everything that's (in their eyes) wrong with the industry.
That doesn't mean that other MMO gamers that aren't bothered by such reasons can't enjoy SWTOR, Rift, LotrO and other themepark MMO's that the market will have to offer, after all, tastes are different
Or maybe it's just because they recognise the symptoms of a weak game? You don't have to be a sandbox fanatic to see this themepark game has grave potential weaknesses. Dismissing them as deluded, denigrates some good posters and may lead to some undecided posters being deceived.
Exactly the reasons why we are pessimistic of the thempark MMO. Why make a game so similar to WoW whe none could innovate and take the genre further especially in such an appealing IP is beyond me. Look we have had years of the same failed gameplay elements that are riding the coat tails of Blizzard and WoW that the genre is so stagnate its a wonder why others dont see it. Unless SWToR can come up with another form of endgame other then the failed WoW model I expect the population to plummet within months after launch just like every other themepark riddled infectious game has done. Facts are you're never gonan beat WoW at WoW so why even bother, why not try and innovate. Thats why my moneys is on games like TSW and GW2 but I long for the day for a developer to come along and create an MMO akin to what good ole fashioned Sandboxes like UO, Eve SWG and Asherons Call did to create this genre.
Originally posted by Hendo0069
For me it's not that I'm tired of themepark games it's more like I'm tired of bad themepark games.
AoC, WAR and others were horribly buggy, half finished or extremely uninspiring in it's quest design.
swtor's quest design seems to be a hit with most that play it.
We will just have to see if they can release swtor with all its systems in place and working with minimal bugs.
Its still not going to be enough, look at Rift. The game has amazing production quality but they havnt the 10th of WoW's playerbase because they follow the same broken WoW/EQ model that states the game doesnt begin untill level cap. SWToR will have awesome story and should in theory (if it is relative bug free) provide a decent adventure up the level ladder but the entire premise of the game changes to the same failed WoW model at level cap and THIS is what we themepark haters hate about this genre.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
The vast majority of mmo enthusiasts are not playing an mmo today. Their still waiting for their mmo to arrive. Shown by millions of mmo boxes sold/downloaded, only to have 1/6th of the subscribership base 3-6 months out.
And WoW is not a mmorpg, but a social network facebook game, so its' use in comparisons are alwaus mute.
Thank you.
Lol. You're right, WoW doesn't count - apparently it isn't an MMORPG . . .
Thank you for agreeing.
However, If you really want to count all the other facebook games, I wouldnt enter Rift into the fold, but if you really are insistant on drawing a comparison to WoW and mmorpgs, the might as well fit in the following into your argurement.
MAU = Monthly Active Users:
1 - FarmVille Virtual World Games
55,502,307 MAU
2 - Texas HoldEm Poker Card and Casino Games
36,854,573 MAU
3 - FrontierVille Virtual World Games
28,380,967 MAU
4 - Mafia Wars Game Role-Playing and Strategy Games
However, If you really want to count all the other facebook games, I wouldnt enter Rift into the fold, but if you really are insistant on drawing a comparison to WoW and mmorpgs, the might as well fit in the following into your argurement.
MAU = Monthly Active Users:
(snips stuff)
Ah, you mean those are all MMORPG's? Then we should inform the mmorpg.com staff that they apparently missed a number of MMO's on them, will be great to have Farmville on the list here
As for the other MMO's, I'd guess that 15-20 million people are currently playing those games. Apparently they like them and are having a fun time. I guess those MMO's have something to offer in their gameplay that is to be liked by those 15-20 million MMO gamers, design features hat what it looks like it probably will also be liked in upcoming MMO's.
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Exactly the reasons why we are pessimistic of the thempark MMO. Why make a game so similar to WoW whe none could innovate and take the genre further especially in such an appealing IP is beyond me. Look we have had years of the same failed gameplay elements that are riding the coat tails of Blizzard and WoW that the genre is so stagnate its a wonder why others dont see it. Unless SWToR can come up with another form of endgame other then the failed WoW model I expect the population to plummet within months after launch just like every other themepark riddled infectious game has done. Facts are you're never gonan beat WoW at WoW so why even bother, why not try and innovate. Thats why my moneys is on games like TSW and GW2 but I long for the day for a developer to come along and create an MMO akin to what good ole fashioned Sandboxes like UO, Eve SWG and Asherons Call did to create this genre.
I think what you say here is indeed the big question:
what are MMO gamers looking for in their MMO's, and is WoW simply a fluke, one that hobbles onward driven by inertia, or is it something in the themepark gameplay design that appeals more to gamers than other design models?
It's a question that I'm eagerly interested in seeing the answer to.
FWIW, my own conviction is that the best MMO's will be the ones who successfully manage to combine sandbox with themepark features.
However, in the end, I don' think sandbox or themepark or whatever matters: people play games when they're having fun and if it provides entertainment to them. The upcoming years will show what is fun to people.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Its sad to see people trash each other on these boards and in the same breath talk about how important community is in an mmo.
You know, I've been thinking that too.
What's even more intriguing is that the people that call out the most how community is important and that sandbox MMO's are far better in that, are also the ones who are the most intolerant towards others who don't share their tastes and preferences, and the most vindictive and persistently agressive in attacking those.
I was pretty neutral regarding the sandbox MMO playerbase in general before I started visiting this site, but I'll be honest and say that if the sandbox fans on this site are any current indication of how the sandbox crowd will be in (semi) sandbox MMO's like ArcheAge, then that's a major negative to me. I don't see a healthy, constructive and tolerant community rising from it, despite all the big words how sandbox MMO's are more community oriented
Hmm, maybe a topic for a new thread.
/offtopic
As opposed to the likes of barrens chat in WoW, or the immersion breaking Chuck Norris quotes in any themepark MMO I have ever played or the ANAL [insert random linked item here] that litters trade and general chat of every themepark ever designed.
I challenge you to log into any current subscription sandbox modeled game currently on the market and ask for assistance in the most menial of task and then do the same in any themepark WoW/EQ modeled MMO and compare the responses. That should give you a wakeup. I have yet to experince the most childish of rants and filth that liters the channels of WoW, Rift, AoC, WAR, Aion in any sandbox MMO.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I agree on the bit you said about the graphics. While I do like the stylized direction BW is going for. If I magically rearrange everything, I would give it more fidelity.
I'd start by making higher res textures, then make the characters looks less stylized, and make the colors more catering to a darker theme where you would expect a huge disaster or tragic battle to happen or something. To give everything a more 'serious' atmosphere rather than a happier and brighter one.
I'm thinking about the deceived trailer battle when I reference this. The official trailers have a darker theme to the atmosphere than the gameplay. I still wouldn't go for 'photo' realism however. When you do that you hit the uncanncy valley, and character animations/expressions look terrible and forced.
FYI elikal. If you make the BEST visuals possible. As in the MOST TEXTURES, and INSANELY HIGH SYSTEM REQ. The game will flop.
However, If you really want to count all the other facebook games, I wouldnt enter Rift into the fold, but if you really are insistant on drawing a comparison to WoW and mmorpgs, the might as well fit in the following into your argurement.
MAU = Monthly Active Users:
(snips stuff)
Ah, you mean those are all MMORPG's? n MMO gamers, design features hat what it looks like it probably will also be liked in upcoming MMO's.
Yes. Equivalent mmorpgs to WoW.
Now just find a mmorpg that has more substance to warrant a subscription to the vast majority that bail on a mainstream mmorpg 3-6months out, and we might have something worthy. That is all.
Ohh...forgot Playboy Manager, but the mmorpg staff already picked-up on that one :P
Still, trying to apply today's market trends to 2003 and saying it was "a sinking ship" is still rubbish. They lost a 1/3rd of their population, which was still a accomplished amount among the market. The main reason (I think) people left for WoW was the success of the Warcraft IP, through Warcraft 3. Star Wars and Warcraft IP's clashed and Warcraft's just had a tighter hold on people from W3 and TFT.
The reason you give for why they were leaving isn't relevant in this situation, the fact is that people left SWG in droves with the newer kids on the block: not only WoW btw, we had entire major guilds move from SWG to EQ2, a lot of SWG players were also EQ fans so when EQ2 came out a lot of former EQ fans wanted to be there.
I mean, it's all understandable certainly looking at it with the increased knowledge of 6 more years of MMO history: with the new kids on the block, especially with an EQ2, WoW and not to be completely neglected a GW, SWG was bound to lose a lot of players, just as DAoC and EQ. However, that doesn't change the fact that SWG's peak had passed and the decline had set in. And more than 1/3 player population in a year is a lot to lose, even before an NGE.
How isn't it relevant? You sort of contradict yourself. People left SWG in droves for the newer kids on the block, which was mostly WoW and EQ2. WoW was such a grabber because of the established IP from the Warcraft series. I'm not sure how it's not relevant. EQ2 was a grabber because of Everquest. The game released in the middle of '03 on the rails of hype, steadied out for a bit (before WoW and EQ2) and when these two games released the population declined as expected.
Judging by that chart, there's a direct correlation between EQ2 and WoW releasing and SWG's decline. It peaked before but if those two games weren't released who knows how it would've fared.
I challenge you to log into any current subscription sandbox modeled game currently on the market and ask for assistance in the most menial of task and then do the same in any themepark WoW/EQ modeled MMO and compare the responses. That should give you a wakeup. I have yet to experince the most childish of rants and filth that liters the channels of WoW, Rift, AoC, WAR, Aion in any sandbox MMO.
I usually log onto RP servers, so my viewpoint is skewed, I had a great time on RP servers in any MMORPG, so far my opinion is that RP communities beats hands on any other community, whether that's pure PvE servers, PVP servers or sandbox MMO servers. But we'll see when AA comes out.
Originally posted by Cik_Asalin
Yes. Equivalent mmorpgs to WoW.
If I had to follow wikipedia and common opinion or you, I stand by wikipedia.
Good luck in trying to convince the world that WoW isn't an MMORPG without people looking at you as if you've hit your head
Originally posted by Benthon
Judging by that chart, there's a direct correlation between EQ2 and WoW releasing and SWG's decline. It peaked before but if those two games weren't released who knows how it would've fared.
Eh, yes? That was my point, what was yours?
If no MMO had been released, people would have stuck around, maybe a gradual decrease, who knows. However, new MMO's arrived. People had a choice to stay in SWG or go to these new MMO's. These new MMO's were more popular and liked than SWG. SWG was losing sub, and it was losing subs fast before any NGE. NGE and the brusque implrementation of themepark design wasn't the reason for SWG's withering away, it was doing that already before the NGE.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I challenge you to log into any current subscription sandbox modeled game currently on the market and ask for assistance in the most menial of task and then do the same in any themepark WoW/EQ modeled MMO and compare the responses. That should give you a wakeup. I have yet to experince the most childish of rants and filth that liters the channels of WoW, Rift, AoC, WAR, Aion in any sandbox MMO.
I usually log onto RP servers, so my viewpoint is skewed, I had a great time on RP servers in any MMORPG, so far my opinion is that RP communities beats hands on any other community, whether that's pure PvE servers, PVP servers or sandbox MMO servers. But we'll see when AA comes out.
I've played a few sandbox mmo's without playing RP servers over the last half a decade. Pretty much decent or great communities. Aside from darkfall, where a near majority of players are elitist. One of the few non sandbox mmo's I've played that had a good community was FFXI.
I had not met a single player that I didn't get along with on that mmo aside from an occasional mob trainer. Except in one case, this guy trained on with 3 creatures by accident, and when we came back he apologized and gave us a huge ammount of gold. Also being able to communicate and play with people from japan was fun and made the server pop be in constant good health. I don't know how FFXI is doing now.
But compare the community from it to something like WoW and it's like comparing night and day. I know this experience isn't just a personal one, two of my friends who have played the game, one on a different server, all say almost the exact thing. Wish more mmo's could have better communities, and I think FFXI is a really good mmo to base an ideal standard off of.
Comments
Damn that is depressing list to read.
I can't wait for this turd of an mmo to flop, and it will the writing is on the wall already....
Hopefully the next generation of mmo's like ArcheAge, Everquest 3 and World of Darkness will get things back on the right track.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
dude, thats like everyone. especially after WoW. do you even understand the MMO scene today? the real truth is everyone just wants a fun game. many want something new and interesting. i was never a big sandbox fan, having played EVE for 5 years and no longer playing, i always have a bone to pick with that game.
your arguments are getting super old. there's nothing wrong with themeparks. GW2 will be a themepark 100%. but it will be one constructed in an engaging manner to bring the population together. i have about 15 beefs with TOR, but my #1 beef is that it's essentially a single player RPG game, with a tacked on multiplayer component. in fact, TOR will be worse off than WoW in this respect because it will have LESS instance and raid content, while having MORE single player content.
so TOR is going to be a letdown for more people than you think. jaded MMO'ers, sandboxers, pvp'ers, raiders (arguably), the next best thingers, everyone except a group of SW fans.
Let's add some common sense into the discussion, shall we?
How many people do you think are playing MMORPG's right now, these past few months? And how many of those are playing MMO's that have the same gameplay mechanics that you claim is old or not fun anymore?
You may go bashing all other MMO's that aren't GW2 all you like, not that anyone can stop you with that, but surely you're able to see that a lot of MMO gamers are still having fun with the kind of gameplay that you hate.
Else everyone would be playing Xsyon, or Global Agenda or Perpetuum Online, or Final Fantasy XIV, or Earthrise.
Instead the majority of MMO gamers is playing WoW, and Rift, and Aion, and LotrO and other MMO's like those. Yep, all MMO's with the kind of gameplay that you dislike and hate. But, not everyone has your taste, and this site hardly counts, I bet that most complainers here aren't even playing MMO's right now or maybe only sporadically, so they don't count in those millions that are playing MMO games right now.
So, I think I have a pretty accurate picture of the current MMO scene, not some imaginary one but founded by hard figures. So I return the question: do you even understand the MMO scene today, or are you just seeing what you want to see?
You're right in 1 thing though, everyone wants a fun game. You're wrong in that this means that everyone should or does have the same taste in what's fun to them as you. Tastes and preferences differ, you know, get used to it, it applies to everything in life.
Sorry to disappoint you. You'll have to wait and be MMO homeless for at least a year longer if those 3 are the only ones that rock your socks. But hey, instead of playing MMO's and have fun with them like other MMO gamers you can still have fun hanging out on MMO forums while waiting for that MMO that's perfect for your taste to arrive
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
-Graphics - I like their art style, but then I have a fairly broad taste in graphics. I really like it for a MMO to be able to scale graphics quality well. I really hate low frame rates. I also never expect state of the art fps (shooter) quality graphics.
-Combat - I dont expect much of it. The fun factor here for me will be blasters and lightsabers, not the combat system.
-Filler quests - Pretty much what I expected from devs that made no secret that they set WoW as example.
-Endgame - Not interested at all in this. It wont be the reason why I will play TOR.
-PVP - Gearbased PVP. No thank you. Also no reason for me to play TOR.
- No sandbox - That was known from the start and I wasnt expecting this either. Bioware makes slightly linear immersive storydriven RPG's. For freedom in a rpg, check out Bethesda
My reason to play is an immersive storydriven KOTOR online
I can play with my friends now and hopefully the classbased stories will also give me reason to roll alts. Any additional MMO feature that will entertain me, is just a bonus to me. If it turns out to be just a few months of fun, Ill be in time for Guild Wars 2 release 
The vast majority of mmo enthusiasts are not playing an mmo today. Their still waiting for their mmo to arrive. Shown by millions of mmo boxes sold/downloaded, only to have 1/6th of the subscribership base 3-6 months out.
And WoW is not a mmorpg, but a social network facebook game, so its' use in comparisons are alwaus mute.
Thank you.
It's the same old 'fan boy' versus 'hater' song and dance.
Whether you think the game will be good or bad, reserve judgement of the game for when it's actually released and people can actually play the whole thing and form decisions about the game's quality based on first hand experience.
Keep in mind though, it's better to be cautious and then surprised by a game turning out well, than to be swept up in the hype only to end up let down if it bombs.
So what irks you about ToR is that it's not sandbox?
I know you quickly tried to make a statement for not being a hater, but it's clear that you are. People that aren't in either corner are just waiting to play the game. You, however, go on to make comments about the gameplay, endgame, and questing, like you've played it.
I'll wait till I play the game, not hear some bitter nerd blog about what he played for 10 minutes at a convention. As for the graphics, I used to play text video games, so really I don't see what all the complaining about graphics is. It's mostly the younger generation that likes to epeen with their 'tricked out' computer setups that worries about this imo. The graphics are like that to be playable on lower end machines (ie one of the main things WoW did right).
I'm sorry you feel like it's mediocore. Really though, not having played it, I'm not so sure you can really feel so definitive about your subjective opinion. I on the other hand am reserving my bashing or praising till I play the game.
This fellow essentially said all that needs to be said from my side of the fence, and this discussion is getting less civil with every post, so I'm going to /support this post and get out before things get out of hand. Was good talking to you folks, but it's turned into yet another fanboy vs hater debate, and I don't fall into either.
Lol. You're right, WoW doesn't count - apparently it isn't an MMORPG - and Rift doesn't count and LotrO doesn't count and Aion doesn't count - presumably because 1 million+ Asian gamers don't count - and all those other MMO gamers playing the MMO they like don't count as well. There are more people playing MMO's than ever before, but they don't count as well. Good point
Not surprisingly at all you're drawing the wrong conclusions. I was talking about how threads in the SWTOR forumsection on mmorpg.com are more entertaining to hang around in because of the large amount of fallacies, sandbox fans and jaded, burnt out MMO vets hanging around venting their dissatisfaction with the current MMO genre and SWTOR as one of its standard bearer than other gameforum sections here on mmorpg.com, not other sites (wrong conclusion of you there).
Oh, did you know that I'm actually looking forward more to a GW2 and a TSW than an SWTOR, or that I also look forward to AA, WoD and Firefall? Just saying
In contrast to 'haters' with their quick-judge decision forming I myself have a pretty good picture of what to expect, combined with a firm 'wait and see' attitude. I know this is hard for haters/critics to understand, but you can be enthusiastic or interested in a game without getting swept away by any hype.
At the same time, I'm aware that you can be critical or sceptic of a game without being a 'hater', I've no problem with that and even find such discussions refreshing. However, I find that I have little respect for those that keep quick-judging and bashing a game with sensationalism, half-truths and gut-feeling biased reasoning, which at its core only camouflage their general dissatisfaction and frustration with the MMO scene in general.
I have no qualms with debunking those fallacies and false, emotionally fueled arguments at all
Anyway, let's go back on OP topic.
/offtopic
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The minute you said WoW was not an mmo was the minute your ego push commonsense out the window. Like it or not, more credible people would define WoW a classic mmo by any means than not. And the mere fact that you think socializing and networking are not part of a mmo's main M.O. is futher proof of how clouded your judgement is.
Next time try to seperate the issue you have with WoW from the issue you seem to have with what WoW means to the MMO scene. Then we can have a more reasonable conversation about a scene that's bigger than both you and me (any everyone else on mmorpg.com for that matter).
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Ill tell ya right now thats not going to happen.
people have been saying this for as long as i have been playing MMOs (almost 10 years now). The fact of the matter is that most people that have been playing MMOs long enough that they know exactly what they want or what kind of game they would like are chasing unicorns, that game they are waiting for is never going to exist. and the "right track" in your opinion is not the same as the "right track" in the developers/publishers opinion, i can guarantee you that much
most people that have been playing long enough to know exaclty what they want are jaded by the norm. the problem is the norm is what the vast majority of subscriber want, so they are the ones that the games are being developed for, not us (yes ... us ... im not thrilled about grinding instances for gear and killing 4000 jawas to hit my next level, but i accept that im the minority and i have to deal with it)
there is nothing would love more than for TOR to be the best MMO on the market at its release, but im not hopeful thats going to happen, all i hope is that its good enough that i can play it and be entertain long enough for it to become a top tier game, or until something else comes on the market that i have any interest in playing
Its sad to see people trash each other on these boards and in the same breath talk about how important community is in an mmo.
I left at sandbox.
I want to own property too
What's amsuing to me is that after this long thread. The vast majority of posters will buy and play TOR just for the story alone. Even though they think it will be a typical themepark MMO. So I guess everyone will find out about game play by the usuall way. They will play the game. Isn't that a good thing?
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
You know, I've been thinking that too.
What's even more intriguing is that the people that call out the most how community is important and that sandbox MMO's are far better in that, are also the ones who are the most intolerant towards others who don't share their tastes and preferences, and the most vindictive and persistently agressive in attacking those.
I was pretty neutral regarding the sandbox MMO playerbase in general before I started visiting this site, but I'll be honest and say that if the sandbox fans on this site are any current indication of how the sandbox crowd will be in (semi) sandbox MMO's like ArcheAge, then that's a major negative to me. I don't see a healthy, constructive and tolerant community rising from it, despite all the big words how sandbox MMO's are more community oriented
Hmm, maybe a topic for a new thread.
/offtopic
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What's even more intriguing is that the people that call out the most how community is important and that sandbox MMO's are far better in that, are also the ones who are the most intolerant towards others who don't share their tastes and preferences, and the most vindictive and persistently agressive in attacking those.
I was pretty neutral regarding the sandbox MMO playerbase in general before I started visiting this site, but I'll be honest and say that if the sandbox fans on this site are any current indication of how the sandbox crowd will be in (semi) sandbox MMO's like ArcheAge, then that's a major negative to me. I don't see a healthy, constructive and tolerant community rising from it, despite all the big words how sandbox MMO's are more community oriented
Hmm, maybe a topic for a new thread.
/offtopic
Im less disturbed by the sandbox nazis and more disturbed by the traditional mmo haters who are here to enlighten us. I blame Anet's ad campaign, but that is DEFINITELY offtopic heh.
I am not a SWToR apologist as I have no intention to play the game for a month or 2 at the most to experience the storyline of 1 maybe 2 classes. The other junk that litters this title is the same thing I have played for the last 6 years in WoW and untill I hear any deviation from what we already know the endgame will be like (i.e. Raids and instanced dungeon grinding and the reliance on gating content via gear tiers) then I agree with most of what you say however I will point out I think you're flawed in one arguement. I do think you're spot on in everything else though.
1. The graphics are the way they are and are to allow the most amount of players to buy and play the game much like WoW does with their graphics, besides I think most true MMO players care more for the content and possibly story then the GFX. I myself went back to Asherons Call after a 6 year hiatus to dabble in the king of all themepark adventures and the first few days I was back I almost wanted to quit due to the bad graphics but shortly after I got acustomed to them again I quickly realized how much more fun I have in AC then I did in WoW. Besides theres a reason why theres an old adage in the MMO world thats called "graphics does not make the game"
As opposed to Star World of Riftcraft the Old Everquest? I think this style of MMO has been beeten to death and its tiring to see the same philosophy that is so stale and old to be continued to be developed whe ntheir are masses of people waiting to play an MMO thats designed on adventure, exploration and innovative combat.
Exactly the reasons why we are pessimistic of the thempark MMO. Why make a game so similar to WoW whe none could innovate and take the genre further especially in such an appealing IP is beyond me. Look we have had years of the same failed gameplay elements that are riding the coat tails of Blizzard and WoW that the genre is so stagnate its a wonder why others dont see it. Unless SWToR can come up with another form of endgame other then the failed WoW model I expect the population to plummet within months after launch just like every other themepark riddled infectious game has done. Facts are you're never gonan beat WoW at WoW so why even bother, why not try and innovate. Thats why my moneys is on games like TSW and GW2 but I long for the day for a developer to come along and create an MMO akin to what good ole fashioned Sandboxes like UO, Eve SWG and Asherons Call did to create this genre.
Its still not going to be enough, look at Rift. The game has amazing production quality but they havnt the 10th of WoW's playerbase because they follow the same broken WoW/EQ model that states the game doesnt begin untill level cap. SWToR will have awesome story and should in theory (if it is relative bug free) provide a decent adventure up the level ladder but the entire premise of the game changes to the same failed WoW model at level cap and THIS is what we themepark haters hate about this genre.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Thank you for agreeing.
However, If you really want to count all the other facebook games, I wouldnt enter Rift into the fold, but if you really are insistant on drawing a comparison to WoW and mmorpgs, the might as well fit in the following into your argurement.
MAU = Monthly Active Users:
1 - FarmVille Virtual World Games
55,502,307 MAU
2 - Texas HoldEm Poker Card and Casino Games
36,854,573 MAU
3 - FrontierVille Virtual World Games
28,380,967 MAU
4 - Mafia Wars Game Role-Playing and Strategy Games
23,388,135 MAU
5 - Café World Virtual World Games
18,240,550 MAU
6 -Treasure Isle Virtual World Games
14,094,330 MAU
7 - Pet Society Virtual World Games
12,337,015 MAU
8 - Millionaire City Virtual World Games
12,130,456 MAU
9 - MindJolt Games Other Games
11,722,204 MAU
10 - Bejeweled Blitz Puzzle and Quiz Games
11,707,821 MAU
/thread
Ah, you mean those are all MMORPG's? Then we should inform the mmorpg.com staff that they apparently missed a number of MMO's on them, will be great to have Farmville on the list here
As for the other MMO's, I'd guess that 15-20 million people are currently playing those games. Apparently they like them and are having a fun time. I guess those MMO's have something to offer in their gameplay that is to be liked by those 15-20 million MMO gamers, design features hat what it looks like it probably will also be liked in upcoming MMO's.
I think what you say here is indeed the big question:
what are MMO gamers looking for in their MMO's, and is WoW simply a fluke, one that hobbles onward driven by inertia, or is it something in the themepark gameplay design that appeals more to gamers than other design models?
It's a question that I'm eagerly interested in seeing the answer to.
FWIW, my own conviction is that the best MMO's will be the ones who successfully manage to combine sandbox with themepark features.
However, in the end, I don' think sandbox or themepark or whatever matters: people play games when they're having fun and if it provides entertainment to them. The upcoming years will show what is fun to people.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
As opposed to the likes of barrens chat in WoW, or the immersion breaking Chuck Norris quotes in any themepark MMO I have ever played or the ANAL [insert random linked item here] that litters trade and general chat of every themepark ever designed.
I challenge you to log into any current subscription sandbox modeled game currently on the market and ask for assistance in the most menial of task and then do the same in any themepark WoW/EQ modeled MMO and compare the responses. That should give you a wakeup. I have yet to experince the most childish of rants and filth that liters the channels of WoW, Rift, AoC, WAR, Aion in any sandbox MMO.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I agree on the bit you said about the graphics. While I do like the stylized direction BW is going for. If I magically rearrange everything, I would give it more fidelity.
I'd start by making higher res textures, then make the characters looks less stylized, and make the colors more catering to a darker theme where you would expect a huge disaster or tragic battle to happen or something. To give everything a more 'serious' atmosphere rather than a happier and brighter one.
I'm thinking about the deceived trailer battle when I reference this. The official trailers have a darker theme to the atmosphere than the gameplay. I still wouldn't go for 'photo' realism however. When you do that you hit the uncanncy valley, and character animations/expressions look terrible and forced.
FYI elikal. If you make the BEST visuals possible. As in the MOST TEXTURES, and INSANELY HIGH SYSTEM REQ. The game will flop.
Yes. Equivalent mmorpgs to WoW.
Now just find a mmorpg that has more substance to warrant a subscription to the vast majority that bail on a mainstream mmorpg 3-6months out, and we might have something worthy. That is all.
Ohh...forgot Playboy Manager, but the mmorpg staff already picked-up on that one :P
How isn't it relevant? You sort of contradict yourself. People left SWG in droves for the newer kids on the block, which was mostly WoW and EQ2. WoW was such a grabber because of the established IP from the Warcraft series. I'm not sure how it's not relevant. EQ2 was a grabber because of Everquest. The game released in the middle of '03 on the rails of hype, steadied out for a bit (before WoW and EQ2) and when these two games released the population declined as expected.
http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2_files/Subscriptions_11327_image001.png
Judging by that chart, there's a direct correlation between EQ2 and WoW releasing and SWG's decline. It peaked before but if those two games weren't released who knows how it would've fared.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
I usually log onto RP servers, so my viewpoint is skewed, I had a great time on RP servers in any MMORPG, so far my opinion is that RP communities beats hands on any other community, whether that's pure PvE servers, PVP servers or sandbox MMO servers.
But we'll see when AA comes out.
If I had to follow wikipedia and common opinion or you, I stand by wikipedia.
Good luck in trying to convince the world that WoW isn't an MMORPG without people looking at you as if you've hit your head
Eh, yes? That was my point, what was yours?
If no MMO had been released, people would have stuck around, maybe a gradual decrease, who knows. However, new MMO's arrived. People had a choice to stay in SWG or go to these new MMO's. These new MMO's were more popular and liked than SWG. SWG was losing sub, and it was losing subs fast before any NGE. NGE and the brusque implrementation of themepark design wasn't the reason for SWG's withering away, it was doing that already before the NGE.
That was what I was saying, iirc.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I've played a few sandbox mmo's without playing RP servers over the last half a decade. Pretty much decent or great communities. Aside from darkfall, where a near majority of players are elitist. One of the few non sandbox mmo's I've played that had a good community was FFXI.
I had not met a single player that I didn't get along with on that mmo aside from an occasional mob trainer. Except in one case, this guy trained on with 3 creatures by accident, and when we came back he apologized and gave us a huge ammount of gold. Also being able to communicate and play with people from japan was fun and made the server pop be in constant good health. I don't know how FFXI is doing now.
But compare the community from it to something like WoW and it's like comparing night and day. I know this experience isn't just a personal one, two of my friends who have played the game, one on a different server, all say almost the exact thing. Wish more mmo's could have better communities, and I think FFXI is a really good mmo to base an ideal standard off of.