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You know what irks me the most about TOR

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  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Benthon

     Still, trying to apply today's market trends to 2003 and saying it was "a sinking ship" is still rubbish. They lost a 1/3rd of their population, which was still a accomplished amount among the market. The main reason (I think) people left for WoW was the success of the Warcraft IP, through Warcraft 3. Star Wars and Warcraft IP's clashed and Warcraft's just had a tighter hold on people from W3 and TFT.

    Eh, I'm talking about 2005, and the SWG team itself got worried about the rapidly decreasing population where other MMO's seemed to thrive, enough that they decided to drastic countermeasures like the NGE (which admittedly, was the wrong one to make).

    Also, I'm not applying today's market trends, because if I did I'd say that 150-200k was still a good number to have, and that they should already be happy that they had such a number after 2.5 years.

    The reason you give for why they were leaving isn't relevant in this situation, the fact is that people left SWG in droves with the newer kids on the block: not only WoW btw, we had entire major guilds move from SWG to EQ2, a lot of SWG players were also EQ fans so when EQ2 came out a lot of former EQ fans wanted to be there.

    I mean, it's all understandable certainly looking at it with the increased knowledge of 6 more years of MMO history: with the new kids on the block, especially with an EQ2, WoW and not to be completely neglected a GW, SWG was bound to lose a lot of players, just as DAoC and EQ. However, that doesn't change the fact that SWG's peak had passed and the decline had set in. And more than 1/3 player population in a year is a lot to lose, even before an NGE.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."


  • Originally posted by CrazyAl82

    what do you all mean by appearance tab?

    an appearence is a tab in your character screen that lets you equip items that you can choose to see on your character but offer no stat benefit.  say you got some set at a low lvl that you really liked the look of but the stats weren't good enough anymore, well an appearance tab lets you equip those and see them but get stats from other gear.  lotro has a great appearance tab setup(imo)

  • CrazyAl82CrazyAl82 Member Posts: 6

    Originally posted by gaou

    Originally posted by CrazyAl82

    what do you all mean by appearance tab?

    an appearence is a tab in your character screen that lets you equip items that you can choose to see on your character but offer no stat benefit.  say you got some set at a low lvl that you really liked the look of but the stats weren't good enough anymore, well an appearance tab lets you equip those and see them but get stats from other gear.  lotro has a great appearance tab setup(imo)

    so youre wearing one set of gear for the visuals and another for the stats?  interesting, never seen that before (didnt play lotro)

  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,602

    Originally posted by CrazyAl82

    Originally posted by gaou


    Originally posted by CrazyAl82

    what do you all mean by appearance tab?

    an appearence is a tab in your character screen that lets you equip items that you can choose to see on your character but offer no stat benefit.  say you got some set at a low lvl that you really liked the look of but the stats weren't good enough anymore, well an appearance tab lets you equip those and see them but get stats from other gear.  lotro has a great appearance tab setup(imo)

    so youre wearing one set of gear for the visuals and another for the stats?  interesting, never seen that before (didnt play lotro)

    EQ2 has this as well and to my knowledge was the first with such an option

  • aejoriiaejorii Member Posts: 26

    I'm a huge Starwars fan but I feel SWTOR doesn't do justice that the IP deserves. I'm really bummed about the wasted potential this game could have had..  Oh well.

     

    They just didn't sell the game's positive side to me.

  • Asmiroth20Asmiroth20 Member Posts: 346

        The only thing that irks me is the amount of pessimistic doom and gloom crap. 

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Asmiroth20

        The only thing that irks me is the amount of pessimistic doom and gloom crap. 

    Just keep in mind, most of it is just from sandbox fans who want an SWG2 or other sandbox MMO's or players who cannot enjoy most MMO's anymore, having burnt out on themepark features and requiring something completely different or innovative to still feel any MMO enjoyment at all. A lot of these people have been without an MMO or been unable to enjoy any MMO for years.

    It's obvious that SWTOR isn't a game for them and they dislike it for that, but their frustration and dissatisfaction runs far deeper than just SWTOR and is more towards the MMO scene as it is. SWTOR is just their channel and focus point for everything that's (in their eyes) wrong with the industry.

    That doesn't mean that other MMO gamers that aren't bothered by such reasons can't enjoy SWTOR, Rift, LotrO and other themepark MMO's that the market will have to offer, after all, tastes are different image

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • Matticus75Matticus75 Member UncommonPosts: 396

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by Asmiroth20

        The only thing that irks me is the amount of pessimistic doom and gloom crap. 

    Just keep in mind, most of it is just from sandbox fans who want an SWG2 or other sandbox MMO's or players who cannot enjoy most MMO's anymore, having burnt out on themepark features and requiring something completely different or innovative to still feel any MMO enjoyment at all. A lot of these people have been without an MMO or been unable to enjoy any MMO for years.

    It's obvious that SWTOR isn't a game for them and they dislike it for that, but their frustration and dissatisfaction runs far deeper than just SWTOR and is more towards the MMO scene as it is. SWTOR is just their channel and focus point for everything that's (in their eyes) wrong with the industry.

    That doesn't mean that other MMO gamers that aren't bothered by such reasons can't enjoy SWTOR, Rift, LotrO and other themepark MMO's that the market will have to offer, after all, tastes are different image

      I am in complete agreement with your statment

     

    I would say that originality is dead or is lacking, And like some people say "if its to hot get out of the kitchen" I will get TOR, but I have low expectations for it

     

    Actually Ive reverted back to table top gamming, getting in Warhammer 40k at my local Games workshop, Imagination is the best Graphics Processor, Im starting to "split my hobbies"

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,972

    Originally posted by Asmiroth20

        The only thing that irks me is the amount of pessimistic doom and gloom crap. 

    What were you expecting......

    @Maverick: it's not just mostly sandbox players. If you haven't noticed the significant increase in the last year or so in mmo gamer's complaints regarding how fucking tired they are of the ancient formula that has been used to death in this genre, then you should probably uncover your eyes, and unplug your ears.

    Things are happening now that equate to much more than a simple theme park crowd versus sandbox crowd battle.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • Matticus75Matticus75 Member UncommonPosts: 396

    Again I have stating on other threads, Originality seems to be evil

     

     

    OK here goes and ORIGIANL idea!

     

    Strap in

     

    Combine Themepark and Sandbox!

     

    I just made a Beer hat!!

     

    Who would have thought of THAT, I bet you did, but I said it first!!

     

    Let see if a gaming company can do it!

  • rashherorashhero Member UncommonPosts: 510

    Sounds to me like TOR will be a familiar and easy to understand game. I'm down. I have a job and family. Last thing I'd want TOR to be was something completely new and ground breaking, unique systems to learn.

    But of course in the end its not about me or the OP. It's about the majority and the vocal few on forums are rarely ever the majority for a game.

  • ElderRatElderRat Member CommonPosts: 899

    Originally posted by Elikal

    You know what irks me the most about TOR, it's the damn mediocrity on the most expensive title of all times. I mean, I really do not count myself in the hater corner; though if you totally adore every thing from TOR, it prolly looks like that relatively from where you are standing. I mean, I am sure story and decisions are cool and several other aspects and decisions are as well. But as we get closer to launch and more and more details become visible... I am just again confirmed how much TOR is mediocre in almost every other aspect than story.

    And I wonder how this can be? I mean, if you invest SO MANY dollars, now matter how many exactly, and if you make the next STAR WARS MMO... don't YOU expect... I dunno... more? I mean, come on. It's EA, Bioware, Starwars and tons of dollars... and this is it? I am really not saying I hate TOR. I am 100% going to buy it and likely play at least one or two class stories through. But everything is so average.

    - Graphics: It remains one of my biggest complains, and even if you tell me 1000 times they don't look so bad. No they do not! But they do NOT look breathtaking either. I mean we get so many impressions that the visuals look "competent but hardly breathtaking" (gameindustry.biz) and similar stuff like "if it weren't Star Wars it would be less impressive". (Massively) And that is what I see too. You know, if *I* were in the seat to make the next big MMO, the next Star Wars, dammit, I would make the frigging BEST TOP NOTCH visuals possible! Graphics to make people wet their pants and kick them out of the shoes! Visuals to REALLY REALLY impress. Think of Crysis! Or heck, think of Witcher 2! (Just for a minute compare the lush details of Witcher 2 with the lackluster, sterile world of Dragon Age 2!) I just don't get it why Bioware made just.... this? I mean, again, it's not bad, but surely nothing to write home about in terms of graphics.

     

    - Combat: It's just the same critique as with graphics. They look ok. But dagnabit, it's Star Wars, it that 100-300 million dollar game and THAT'S IT? Thats the best combat you could come up with? I mean, again, it's ok. But the repetitive pew pew and the nailed to the ground mobs really isn't kicking me out of my shoes. And blast for that huge game, for Star Wars, for a really Triple A... this combat is just lame. I am sorry to say if that hurts your feeling, but it's true. And again, I wonder how that could happen? I mean, they have all the money, they have good people they have TIME, and this is all? This combat is so like Everquest from 10 years ago! Stand there, shoot around and repeat. There is nothing new or inspired in this combat at all. It's just a Starwarsy WOW sort of combat. Stand there, shoot your abilities, rinse repeat.

     

    - Quests: Way back one of the SWTOR developer said, that we are NEVER going on such mundane quests like kill 10 rats in TOR. Never. And now if you look at the quests, it's EXACTLY like that. Yes, there is Granny Sithlord telling you 5 minutes about her life and her elaborate background story and then you have the choice to say something nice or something mean (huzzah!) but in those remaining 95% of the game you still will walk around with a shopping list and kill the 10 womprats in Granny Sithlord's cellar and she's going to reward you with a nice womprat-pie STR+10 for 60 min. I mean, what happened to this promise that we never will go to such mundane tasks? That ALL quests are going to be epic and heroic? PUFF... vanished like dew in the morning. I mean, heck, I know MMOs will always have such quests, and I didn't believe that one moment. Only that TOR is again SO average, so Everquestish. I mean, look at GW2 and the dynamic content. No matter how that will play out, at least they ATTEMPT to make something different than the neanderthal age formula of farming 10 rats standing there! And with such a budget I'd just expect more than that.

     

    - Endgame: So the truth is out. Endgame is WOW. Period. I mean, maybe they still have a few aces up their sleeves, but from here it looked pretty much like WOW Endgame. Grind Raids and grind dungeons for Gear of Tier1,2,3 asf. ad nauseam. Yes, they have story. Someone will tell you a cool story why you are there, and that sure is cool and fascinating for the first 2 or 3 times. Of the 2000 times you are going to grind that dungeon for your Tier 3 gearset.

     

    - No Sandbox whatsoever: When TOR was announced, the Bioware devs said TOR was going to be no Sandbox and no Themepark, but a mix of both. It was a lie. TOR is a 100% Themepark and entirely DEVOID of ANY Sandbox elements! I mean, I love themepark questing, but to keep people playing a game in the long run, JUST having endgame gear grind and grinding the same 5 endgame dungeons hundred of times is SO not everyone's pair of shoes. And what better to keep people entertained a longer time, as to add *some* sandbox elements. But truth is, unless we are yet to hear surprises: They ain't there. You have your story quests and the rest is figleaf-there. There is figleaf space, figleaf-crafting, figleaf-hosuing and the game is almost entirely empty of anything NOT involving killing stuff. And Sandbox elements just remain the best receipe for longevity! I mean, what am I do to otherwise if my 200 hours class story are over?

     

    I know it will come over as rant, and it prolly is. But now that most of the cards have been revealed I can't help but feel let down. I mean, sure it will be a nice and decend game. I am going to play it a while. But why Bioware aimed for so little in so many core areas... it's something I just don't get why.

    You repeated Star Wars many times like it was the end all of all tales and holy literature all rolled into 1.  I guess since I never really liked it past the third movie which became the sixth I do not get your point.  It is a game, if you do not like the product that they are selling then do not buy the product they are selling.  Your choice, if you are going to buy it and whine about how it could be better, I don't get it.  Buy it/ don't buy it.  That's your choice.  I am not, but not because it is a great or poor game, I am not going to buy it because it is Star Wars and I don't care. Just my  opinion.

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • Hendo0069Hendo0069 Member Posts: 213

    For me it's not that I'm tired of themepark games it's more like I'm tired of bad themepark games.

    AoC, WAR and others were horribly buggy, half finished or extremely uninspiring in it's quest design.

    swtor's quest design seems to be a hit with most that play it.

    We will just have to see if they can release swtor with all its systems in place and working with minimal bugs.

  • Hendo0069Hendo0069 Member Posts: 213

    Originally posted by Matticus75

    Again I have stating on other threads, Originality seems to be evil

     

     

    OK here goes and ORIGIANL idea!

     

    Strap in

     

    Combine Themepark and Sandbox!

     

    I just made a Beer hat!!

     

    Who would have thought of THAT, I bet you did, but I said it first!!

     

    Let see if a gaming company can do it!

    Archeage seems to be attempting to do just that.

    You should look into it.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Temujin2011

    Or maybe it's just because they recognise the symptoms of a weak game? You don't have to be a sandbox fanatic to see this themepark game has grave potential weaknesses. Dismissing them as deluded, denigrates some good posters and may lead to some undecided posters being deceived.

    Well, a lot of the people who are stating the presumed flaws of SWTOR on these forums are the same ones that are stating in other posts of them the flaws and weaknesses of themepark design in general and the superiority of sandbox design gameplay, so that's why I made the comment, observation of these forums.

    This doesn't apply of course to all critics, but a lot of those sandbox fans are biased towards sandbox gameplay and dismissive of themepark gameplay, therefore their viewpoint towards SWTOR's gameplay will be colored by their pro-sandbox, anti-themepark taste as well. Which is easily to see in the type of arguments they use ( a lot of references and likings of SWG features or sandbox arguments)

     


    Originally posted by Cecropia

    @Maverick: it's not just mostly sandbox players. If you haven't noticed the significant increase in the last year or so in mmo gamer's complaints regarding how fucking tired they are of the ancient formula that has been used to death in this genre, then you should probably uncover your eyes, and unplug your ears.

    Things are happening now that equate to much more than a simple theme park crowd versus sandbox crowd battle.

    I didn't say it was mostly sandbox players. I stated it's mostly sandbox fans and MMO gamers that have gotten themselves burnt out on themepark MMO gameplay or maybe even completely burnt out on MMO typical gameplay in general without them realising it yet. At least on these forums, regarding which I made the observation.

    I'm willing to bet that most of those complainers either haven't been playing MMO's for years, or been playing them very sporadically finding little enjoyment in them except maybe 1, 2 of them but with the general sensation that the MMO genre has little to offer them right now.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • stayontargetstayontarget Member RarePosts: 6,497

    Originally posted by rashhero

    Sounds to me like TOR will be a familiar and easy to understand game. I'm down. I have a job and family. Last thing I'd want TOR to be was something completely new and ground breaking, unique systems to learn.

    But of course in the end its not about me or the OP. It's about the majority and the vocal few on forums are rarely ever the majority for a game.

    Come on it's not like MMo's are rocket science,  I hear this a lot and it just makes me chuckle.

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • rashherorashhero Member UncommonPosts: 510

    Originally posted by stayontarget

    Originally posted by rashhero

    Sounds to me like TOR will be a familiar and easy to understand game. I'm down. I have a job and family. Last thing I'd want TOR to be was something completely new and ground breaking, unique systems to learn.

    But of course in the end its not about me or the OP. It's about the majority and the vocal few on forums are rarely ever the majority for a game.

    Come on it's not like MMo's are rocket science,  I hear this a lot and it just makes me chuckle.

    Your condesending comment aside, I never said nor implied that they were. But why create a whole new playstyle for the same kind of game? What's wrong with the KISS(Keep it simple, stupid) method?

    They are in a business to make money. Not to impress others with innovation. Innovation rarely works and even more so is rarely successful. EvE being a good example. Even then, it doesn't have nearly the numbers of WoW. Bioware is a company just like Blizzard and they're in it for huge sales. They don't want to scare a larger potential playerbase with a new system. They want to draw as many people in. THAT is not rocket science.

  • defector1968defector1968 Member UncommonPosts: 449

    Originally posted by parrotpholk

    Originally posted by CrazyAl82


    Originally posted by gaou


    Originally posted by CrazyAl82

    what do you all mean by appearance tab?

    an appearence is a tab in your character screen that lets you equip items that you can choose to see on your character but offer no stat benefit.  say you got some set at a low lvl that you really liked the look of but the stats weren't good enough anymore, well an appearance tab lets you equip those and see them but get stats from other gear.  lotro has a great appearance tab setup(imo)

    so youre wearing one set of gear for the visuals and another for the stats?  interesting, never seen that before (didnt play lotro)

    EQ2 has this as well and to my knowledge was the first with such an option

    SWG add it at Jan 2009, also has and dye system that can change both colors of an armor part

    EQ2 add it at 2007 but dont know if has dye system

  • Hendo0069Hendo0069 Member Posts: 213

    Originally posted by stayontarget

    Originally posted by rashhero

    Sounds to me like TOR will be a familiar and easy to understand game. I'm down. I have a job and family. Last thing I'd want TOR to be was something completely new and ground breaking, unique systems to learn.

    But of course in the end its not about me or the OP. It's about the majority and the vocal few on forums are rarely ever the majority for a game.

    Come on it's not like MMo's are rocket science,  I hear this a lot and it just makes me chuckle.

    For some people MMO's are very daunting and can be overwhelming especially if it's your first one.

    Other people don't care about innovation or originality in their MMO's. They just want to play something familiar and easy to jump into for a couple hours a night before they put the kids to bed.

    Everybody is different so who are you to judge and laugh at others? It just seems petty.

  • ichimarunicoichimarunico Member Posts: 210

    Originally posted by Hendo0069

    Originally posted by stayontarget


    Originally posted by rashhero

    Sounds to me like TOR will be a familiar and easy to understand game. I'm down. I have a job and family. Last thing I'd want TOR to be was something completely new and ground breaking, unique systems to learn.

    But of course in the end its not about me or the OP. It's about the majority and the vocal few on forums are rarely ever the majority for a game.

    Come on it's not like MMo's are rocket science,  I hear this a lot and it just makes me chuckle.

    For some people MMO's are very daunting and can be overwhelming especially if it's your first one.

    Other people don't care about innovation or originality in their MMO's. They just want to play something familiar and easy to jump into for a couple hours a night before they put the kids to bed.

    Everybody is different so who are you to judge and laugh at others? It just seems petty.

    I think that's part of the problem. Everyone is trying to get 13-year-olds with Mom's credit card so they can sell the new shinies and DLC/Cash Shop items on top of the subs.

    MMORPG Developers, please stop wasting potential on retard-proofing your game. Make a tutorial with some basic fundamental training. You don't have to make it so Johnny Awesome can crush every bit of content under his foot to be successful.

  • NazgolNazgol Member Posts: 864

    Didn't this guy quit once already?

    In Bioware we trust!

  • TheCrow2kTheCrow2k Member Posts: 953

    Originally posted by Elikal

    You know what irks me the most about TOR, it's the damn mediocrity on the most expensive title of all times.

    -SNIP-

    I did read the whole post but to me the very first sentence sums it up and mirrors my own thoughts on where SWTOR is right now.

    I am a HUGE starwars fan and an almost as huge bioware fan, but for all the innovation Bioware has pushed in their titles particularly the re-invention of the CRPG with Baldurs gate and then re-reinvention of the same with NWN I just couldnt help but expect more and maybe a partial re-invention of the MMORPG genre with SWTOR.

     

    I will most likely still buy the game to play the bounty hunter storyline but I really think this will end up like another WAR and if that happens I wont be hanging around long.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619


    Originally posted by Nazgol
    Didn't this guy quit once already?

    Yes. But he is part of a growing demographic of people who begrudgingly play mmos that they dont like. And they make sure to let us know, kicking and screaming all the way. I havent come up with a name for these types of gamers yet, but im sure itll come to me soon enough.
  • w4spl3gw4spl3g Member Posts: 60

    Completely totally agree with the OP.

    Watching MMOMaverik defend this game with absolute fanboy zeal is giving me Rift flashbacks.

    I just finished watching their Tatooine walk through with the class I had planned to play at release... It's absolutely 100% WoW with lightsabers + meaningless dialogue options. The guy can't even move while casting.

    Completely totally agree with whoever posted if it weren't SW would you play? NO!! Will I play? Probably, since there is absolutely nothing going on in MMOs right now.

    OTOH I've been picking up games from STEAM sales out of total abject boredom; Darkspore is pretty good for the moment ;P

    Currently Playing: Perpetuum
    MMOs Played (most time spent to least): World of Warcraft (BG/Open world PvP focused), Lord of the Rings Online (PvMP focused), Warhammer Online (BG PvP focused), Global Agenda, Age of Conan, DC Universe Online (PvP focused), Runes of Magic, Allods, Aion, Fallen Earth

  • NazgolNazgol Member Posts: 864

    Originally posted by w4spl3g

    Completely totally agree with the OP.

    Watching MMOMaverik defend this game with absolute fanboy zeal is giving me Rift flashbacks.

    I just finished watching their Tatooine walk through with the class I had planned to play at release... It's absolutely 100% WoW with lightsabers + meaningless dialogue options. The guy can't even move while casting.

    Completely totally agree with whoever posted if it weren't SW would you play? NO!! Will I play? Probably, since there is absolutely nothing going on in MMOs right now.

    OTOH I've been picking up games from STEAM sales out of total abject boredom; Darkspore is pretty good for the moment

     

    Another Person who has no idea what they are talking about. Meaningless dialogue choices? The choice of sparring the sith in the cave has a consequence.

    In Bioware we trust!

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