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You know what irks me the most about TOR

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  • NeVeRLiFtNeVeRLiFt Member UncommonPosts: 380

    Really good post OP ... but it's to late ToR is already made and is what it is.

    ToR looks like a crap MMO for the most part. (everyone has assholes and elbows and opinions)

    There is always hope for ArcheAge,  Everquest 3 and World of Darkness at least. ;)

    Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
    Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
    Waiting on: Lost Ark
    Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?

  • CujoSWAoACujoSWAoA Member UncommonPosts: 1,781

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by Ebil_Piwat



     Don't have to.

    Seen the vid's at E3, and previous conventions, and also seen the Dev stuff.

    Listened to Daniel comment many times how Blizz is 'cute' and available to Bounty Hunter characters.

    Watch the YouTube vid, where the dev is commenting on the revoulutionary gameplay experience that is TOR, while his character stands there getting shot, yet his companion kills the 2 NPC's and the main isn't below 75% health.

    Listen to George Zoller go on a rampage about this or that yet we see an afk character can't even go below 75% health from a static mob.

    Great animations for the horn head human characters, the blind humans, the green humans, the pony tail head humans, the blue humans.. oh wait they have 'alien' species names.

    Bioware is so concerned tehy are not making 'that other Star wars MMO' that they ended up making that other Star wars MMo.

    SWTOR is the NGE 2.0

     

    and before the diehard fans come in, and say something about it's not what I was expecting... ask yourself this: If it didn't have lightsabers, how much would you defend the game?

    What about where people with hands-on with the game state if you're not using a strategy in how you use your skills you die?

    What about hands-on experiences that say the game is full of challenge, the worlds are fun to explore, and combat feels fast and fluid?

    What about hands-on experiences that explain the sheer size of the worlds, the quality of the writing, that TOR is Star Wars through and through?

    What about hands on experiences that have applauded the companion system and how fun interacting with them can be?

    What about hands-on experiences that state companion AI is more akin to those you find in games like Mass Effect, rather than typcial MMO pets?

    What about all of this? It's as useful as what you pointed it out, it still doesn't tell me how the experience will feel from my perspective. Which is the only one that matters, and the only one that can justify a need to post criticism or praise.

    You can choose not to play, but don't expect anyone to take what you have to say about the game seriously after launch.

     

    I saw a Sith in a pink robe.

    Remember in the Star Wars movies when that Sith wore a pink robe? Lawl, that was great.  Through and Through.

  • AnolevAnolev Member UncommonPosts: 265

    Originally posted by Elikal

    Originally posted by JPTX


    Originally posted by Elikal

    ...

    You know I can accept in many terms people have a different taste. No quarrel here.

    Also, it is true the final verdict will come when I play the game. I am open minded enough to change my opinion then. ;)

    As to the rest: it looks too much like copying the existing WOW formula and tagging story on it. They error of of this is twofold. First, there already exist tons of games like these. So there are a lot of people who are tired of the same old and many who may be interested in the story a while and then return to whatever, as they have done so many times. I still doubt so many MMO gamers are so keen into story and decisions. I know *I* am, but I just doubt too many MMO gamer are. But ok, we will have to see that.

    Are there really a ton of games like this though?  I see tons of WOW "clones", sure, but what do any of them offer that's unique?  Rift has pseudo-dynamic content and the ability to swap in different roles, sure, but that's hardly ground-breaking (in my opinion, and yes I actually play Rift... for now...)  But how many games out there have a huge focus on story?  And how many of them are based in the Star Wars universe?  I personally think that those two items alone are enough to make this different (enough) from all of the other MMO's. 

    Second: in an uphill battle if you play safe, you are going to lose, to paraphrase Sun-Zu. Bioware took zero risks, and in a risky situation as making the most expensive MMO ever, it's a no win situation. If you play safe, you expect to lose already. Such a safe play is usually the result of lack of trust in your own abilities. So you copy the formula of others. It requires some mental leap to understand what I mean, and I'm sorry I can't say it better. If you want to make a good game, you aim to make a good game. You do NOT start to calculate or scheme or make plans what target group X maybe wants and what audience Y possibly is used to as standard. No, you make a game that is fun and new and moving things ahead. The issue is, in the past 5 years, ALL MMos who tried that failed. Like Vanguard, for example. It was a great vision, but the execution was terrible. Such failures are responsible that Bioware devs are so afraid to make ANYTHING different from the all to well known WOW formula. But as I said: you can't win a battle if you just aim for Place #2. You have to do your very BEST right away. And that is what they didn't. They *calculated* and planned and overthought this way too much.

    Zero risks?  They've invested A LOT... tens of millions?  hundreds of millions?  I don't know... but I think we can agree it's a lot... That's risk!  I think (maybe) what you're saying is that they didn't innovate enough?  Well given that no other game has ever attempted this, and based upon the supposed budgets, few could ever afford to try, I think BioWare could very well be trying to pull off the biggest bet in the history of MMO's to-date.  And to me, it seems like they are indeed trying to "move things ahead" as you've said, but in THEIR way, not necessarily yours or mine.  They are known for story-driven games, so they're doing what they're good at. And there are other innovations as well - i.e. the multi-player quest dialog... who else does that?  And if it fails, that's a big fail given how it's integrated into the core of the game.  Also consider the integrated space game (love it or hate it)... who else has that? 

    Had BioWare not added all of the story/voice-over/cinematics, had they not attempted something new with multi-player quests/conversations, ahd they not added something ancillary like the space game, then I'd agree that they were just doing WoW in space.  But I personally think they aren't playing it safe at all - if people don't like story, or multi-player quests, or the space game, this game is going to fail hard!

    But, I guess, only time will tell who of us is right. ;)

    Indeed!

  • CrazyAl82CrazyAl82 Member Posts: 6

    Originally posted by Elikal

    You know I can accept in many terms people have a different taste. No quarrel here.

    Also, it is true the final verdict will come when I play the game. I am open minded enough to change my opinion then. ;)

    As to the rest: it looks too much like copying the existing WOW formula and tagging story on it. They error of of this is twofold. First, there already exist tons of games like these. So there are a lot of people who are tired of the same old and many who may be interested in the story a while and then return to whatever, as they have done so many times. I still doubt so many MMO gamers are so keen into story and decisions. I know *I* am, but I just doubt too many MMO gamer are. But ok, we will have to see that.

    Second: in an uphill battle if you play safe, you are going to lose, to paraphrase Sun-Zu. Bioware took zero risks, and in a risky situation as making the most expensive MMO ever, it's a no win situation. If you play safe, you expect to lose already. Such a safe play is usually the result of lack of trust in your own abilities. So you copy the formula of others. It requires some mental leap to understand what I mean, and I'm sorry I can't say it better. If you want to make a good game, you aim to make a good game. You do NOT start to calculate or scheme or make plans what target group X maybe wants and what audience Y possibly is used to as standard. No, you make a game that is fun and new and moving things ahead. The issue is, in the past 5 years, ALL MMos who tried that failed. Like Vanguard, for example. It was a great vision, but the execution was terrible. Such failures are responsible that Bioware devs are so afraid to make ANYTHING different from the all to well known WOW formula. But as I said: you can't win a battle if you just aim for Place #2. You have to do your very BEST right away. And that is what they didn't. They *calculated* and planned and overthought this way too much.

    But, I guess, only time will tell who of us is right. ;)

    There are indeed many MMOs that have tried to copy WoW and failed, the problem is they did it poorly. Bioware will most likely do it far better than anyone else has.

    Your problem is thinking that Bioware is trying to please you (and by you i mean the gaming public) Biowares sole objective is to make money. Yes, that does including making a good game and keeping players happy, but only to a certain extent, quality is a means to an end, that end being money. When money is your goal you absolutely do begin your dev process with prospective audiences demographics, what type of people you want to attract to your game. This is the basis of the entire state of the industry, players want quality, innovation, content ... developers want money. No ammount of your desire will make them see things from your point of view.

    Biowares decision to make a "WoW clone" (to use a term that i hate but none-the-less provides the best definition) has nothing to do with fear of changing the norm, it is 100% motivated by the salivation caused when they look at the $2 billion (yes, two billion dollars) in subs Blizzard is pulling in each year (not to mention the upfront game and xpac costs)

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    Originally posted by parrotpholk

    Originally posted by Elikal


    Originally posted by parrotpholk

    Is there any game you do not complain about with massive walls of text but yet purchase anyways?  TOR is what it is and at no time has Bioware promised something extra super duper.  They promised a familiar feeling game with  a story and marketed to the masses.  The masses cannot run Crysis 2 on high settings even.  Your list is both silly and pointless espeicially considering you are supporting the game with your money anyways.

    You mistake cause and effect. I complain so much because so many games are "bad". Without critique, how can we hope things ever improve?

    The problem though is you support them with your money.  Complaning on a third party site is all good and fine as I have done more than my fair share here over the years and do not hide from that fact.  However I tend not to support those games which I do not think is worth the money. Gods and Heroes is a great example.  I love mythology and the setting.  The game is mildly amusing but so unfinished I will not pay 50 dollars for something that may provide me with something down the road.  You point out they are bad but play anyways and then you will come back and echo your feelings a couple months post launch.  Sorry I just find it a strange was to show dissatisfaction.

    I suppose you are right. But for me, games not "good or bad", hence I put them in quotation marks. Many games have some cool and some terrible aspects. Then it is Star Wars, and I am a HUGE Star Wars fan. If it were any other fandom or random background I would maybe skip TOR altogether. But it IS Star War, so I can't avoid it. In the immortal words of Admiral Akhbar:

    "IT'S A TRAP!"

    At least for me. ^^

    Also, this is a forum to talk about our hobbies' likes and dislikes, innit? *shrug* I mean, we will spar and fight over our opinions and afterwards laugh it up and drink a beer together. Probably in some Mos Eisley cantina, if we are lucky. ;)

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • zephermarkuszephermarkus Member Posts: 201

    Sorry to break it to everyone but your never gonna get a mmo with the graphics of crysis it just isn't possible it have to much lag client and server side unless u like pvp being 1v1 in an instanced arena or loading every 20 steps like aoc. I prefer 1 loading screen fo my world 1 for my dungeon and thats it loading breaks immersion.

    Also everyone keeps saying guild wars 2 will be a savior to mmos which is a laugh cause right now guild wars 2 is vaporware to me they havent said anyting about the game since they showed a person questing which looked like a better version of warhammer pqs which means they still didnt change questin at all.Also they broke the holy trinity with no healers which means pots will be the main source of healing cause u cannot have a game where u have no way to heal yourself sorry it doesnt work.

    Ps SWTOR is still almost 6 months to maybe another year before it even going to come out. They are still in the friends and family only beta phase. The savior guild wars 2  imo  has already been canceled and they just havent told us yet.


  • Originally posted by zephermarkus

    Sorry to break it to everyone but your never gonna get a mmo with the graphics of crysis it just isn't possible it have to much lag client and server side unless u like pvp being 1v1 in an instanced arena or loading every 20 steps like aoc. I prefer 1 loading screen fo my world 1 for my dungeon and thats it loading breaks immersion.

    Also everyone keeps saying guild wars 2 will be a savior to mmos which is a laugh cause right now guild wars 2 is vaporware to me they havent said anyting about the game since they showed a person questing which looked like a better version of warhammer pqs which means they still didnt change questin at all.Also they broke the holy trinity with no healers which means pots will be the main source of healing cause u cannot have a game where u have no way to heal yourself sorry it doesnt work.

    Ps SWTOR is still almost 6 months to maybe another year before it even going to come out. They are still in the friends and family only beta phase. So is the savior guild wars 2 but imo guild wars to has already been canceled and they just havnt told us yet.

    actually that hasn't been true for close to a year now.

    http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20100709_002

    they have been fairly small testing groups(largest at once has 1000 people) but it has been people outside of bioware and their friends and family

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    @OP: well, SWTOR is of the family of WoW-styled themepark MMO's like a LotrO, Aion, Rift, etc, so you'll have sandbox fans and people who've gotten burnt out on those MMO's insta-hating SWTOR, that's easy to see, in this thread alone.

     

    As for your arguments:

    sandbox: sorry, has been tried, quite some people liked it especially on this site as 'home for the homeless' sandbox MMO drifters, but SWG didn't reach and maintain the high numbers, it had a rapidly shrinking population when it became dwarfed by newcomers. So, SWTOR will try a themepark SW MMO, we'll see how successful that will be but my guess is it'll prove that SW as a themepark MMO draws a hell of a lot more people than Star Wars as a sandbox MMO did.

     

    graphics: SWTOR is imo like LotrO here, environment graphics are superb but character models less so. Anyone who complains about SWTOR's environment graphics I just can't take seriously anymore, it should be obvious that they're among the best. Just look at Aion's cities or even a Tarantia in AoC or TERA's and Rift's cities and then at Coruscant, and then tell me that SWTOR's graphics suck and that the graphics of other MMO's are so much better.

     

    quests: another area that sandbox fans don't care about, so they'll hate any improvement upon it. Why do I say 'sandbox fans'? Because you never hear the biggest and loudest complainers say 'I want quests to stay as they are! Textbased and no decisions possible!', because they know how foolish they'd sound. Instead you hear them complain and give reasons like... sandbox features, and how 'a player should be able to make his own stories bla bla' nonsense. As if having story immersive quests will prevent you from doing that any more than questing and quest leveling in other themepark MMO's.

    Again, it's hard to take sandbox fans seriously if they won't admit that it isn't story in quests that they dislike, but just themepark design in general and questing as a core part of it, so they'll hate any dev attention that goes towards improving the questing experience, because in their eyes it's a waste of resources. After all, they don't care about themepark design and quests anyway.

     

    As for the combat and endgame content part, yeah, I would have seen things rather differently, although not everything is revealed yet regarding endgame and pvp content, so we'll see how that ends up. But so far, no major innovations or breaking away from the standard here.

     

    So, my conclusion (tldr): SWTOR will be insta-hated by jaded MMO vets who cannot enjoy MMO's anymore unless they're radically innovative or different and sandbox fans for everything that SWTOR represents, the current themepark design model they've grown to hate because it has oppressed their kind of MMO's. My guess is that the majority of the loudest complainers here in this thread and others fall in one of those 2 categories.

    People who can still enjoy current AAA titles and haven't gotten burnt out will have those issues far, far less.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,602

    Originally posted by Elikal

    Originally posted by parrotpholk


    Originally posted by Elikal


    Originally posted by parrotpholk

    Is there any game you do not complain about with massive walls of text but yet purchase anyways?  TOR is what it is and at no time has Bioware promised something extra super duper.  They promised a familiar feeling game with  a story and marketed to the masses.  The masses cannot run Crysis 2 on high settings even.  Your list is both silly and pointless espeicially considering you are supporting the game with your money anyways.

    You mistake cause and effect. I complain so much because so many games are "bad". Without critique, how can we hope things ever improve?

    The problem though is you support them with your money.  Complaning on a third party site is all good and fine as I have done more than my fair share here over the years and do not hide from that fact.  However I tend not to support those games which I do not think is worth the money. Gods and Heroes is a great example.  I love mythology and the setting.  The game is mildly amusing but so unfinished I will not pay 50 dollars for something that may provide me with something down the road.  You point out they are bad but play anyways and then you will come back and echo your feelings a couple months post launch.  Sorry I just find it a strange was to show dissatisfaction.

    I suppose you are right. But for me, games not "good or bad", hence I put them in quotation marks. Many games have some cool and some terrible aspects. Then it is Star Wars, and I am a HUGE Star Wars fan. If it were any other fandom or random background I would maybe skip TOR altogether. But it IS Star War, so I can't avoid it. In the immortal words of Admiral Akhbar:

    "IT'S A TRAP!"

    At least for me. ^^

    Also, this is a forum to talk about our hobbies' likes and dislikes, innit? *shrug* I mean, we will spar and fight over our opinions and afterwards laugh it up and drink a beer together. Probably in some Mos Eisley cantina, if we are lucky. ;)

    Most definitely as I mean no disrespect of course. I just like to understand others points of view no matter if they make sense or not.

  • defector1968defector1968 Member UncommonPosts: 449

    Originally posted by gaou

    Originally posted by defector1968


    Originally posted by Caskio


    --snip--

    - Graphics: I like the graphics.  Sure I love Aion's graphics, too.  Which would I prefer? Doens't matter as long as the game is fun.

     - Combat: I didn't expect different combat and I don't know why anyone else would.  Even I can tell it was more of a business decision. Famaliar combat equals a predictable customer base.  I think I prefer the typcal MMORPG combat anyways.

     - Quests: I didn't expect anything different here in terms of quest objectives.  I really can't think of any type of questing that hasn't been done before.  I mean how could you really change the objectives to make it seem different?  Even when they said they wouldn't have the go kill 10 of that quest, I still knew they would.  It can't be escaped unless you remove the quests all together.

     - Endgame: I expected this as well, but even inmy MMO experience, if the endgame doen't have the gear ladder, then it is just a PvP or RP endgame.  That's how SWG was for me, had my crafted gear/ quest weapons and all I did was PvP because there wasn't anything else. 

     - No Sandbox whatsoever: I also remember them saying it wasn't a sandbox or themepark, but even I could tell it was going to be much more of a themepark than anything else.  I mean, you will be following a story and they have told us there are some parts you cannot skip.  I'm interested in this game because of the story and the way it will be presented, not because I would want a crafter's paradise.  I don't think anyone that wants a true sandbox should even come close to buying this game.  You're just going to be dissapointed and regret buying it.

     --snip--

    SWG is that way --->  It still exsists in both forms if you look for it.  But in my opinion, even if SOE brought back Pre-CU or Pre-NGE I still wouldn't go back because the reason I played was the community and friends.  The gameplay only enahnced my fun, but never defined it.  I prefered the CU version anyways.

    About Endgame for you was the PVP for many others was the collections and badges which was a huge pain in the a**

    as for the graphics-quests-gameplay all p2p MMOs are 95% the same no matter what everybody say

    the downside for me is that has no appearance tab and we dont know the storage capacity yet (inventory, backpack, bank, ship)

    heres a little bit regarding storage:

    DamionSchubert General Discussion -> Tatooine "HD" Screen Caps + Mount Description




    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Brianne View Post


    Glad I could show you this information then



    I think Erikson also said that it expands infinitely instead of using backs.



    This could change however.


    You start with 40 slots. You can pay to expand your inventory 10 slots at a time, capped at 80. The price of each row of slots gets progressively more expensive. That being said, any exact values (in terms of price and size) that you might see/hear about are prone to change as we make adjustments to the economy.



    You can also pay to expand your ship's cargo hold, where you can store significantly more items.



    We do not use the 'bag' paradigm that some other MMOs use - it's all one GUI.

    cap 80 inv, unknown if  backpack, unknown ship cap, unknown if bank, Damion didnt say anything about capacity (the inv cap was obvius)

  • NeVeRLiFtNeVeRLiFt Member UncommonPosts: 380

    Originally posted by zephermarkus

    Sorry to break it to everyone but your never gonna get a mmo with the graphics of crysis it just isn't possible it have to much lag client and server side unless u like pvp being 1v1 in an instanced arena or loading every 20 steps like aoc. I prefer 1 loading screen fo my world 1 for my dungeon and thats it loading breaks immersion.

    Also everyone keeps saying guild wars 2 will be a savior to mmos which is a laugh cause right now guild wars 2 is vaporware to me they havent said anyting about the game since they showed a person questing which looked like a better version of warhammer pqs which means they still didnt change questin at all.Also they broke the holy trinity with no healers which means pots will be the main source of healing cause u cannot have a game where u have no way to heal yourself sorry it doesnt work.

    Ps SWTOR is still almost 6 months to maybe another year before it even going to come out. They are still in the friends and family only beta phase. The savior guild wars 2  imo  has already been canceled and they just havent told us yet.

    AoC and ArcheAge come to mind...

    Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
    Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
    Waiting on: Lost Ark
    Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?

  • greenbow54greenbow54 Member UncommonPosts: 128

    I think what pisses off people on this site the most about SWTOR is that its not Star Eve Ultima Wars Galaxies Online.

     

    What really gets me...is that the game doesn't have a release date and people are so definitive about how some of the features are, and how bad the game fails already..

    image

  • zephermarkuszephermarkus Member Posts: 201

    aoc loads every 20 steps like i said and archage is using the old version of a heavly reprogrammed cry-engine and it also looks no where near as good as crysis 2 on max settings. Also aregage is a sandbox games which means they wont get over 100,000 subs if that. Sandbox games are for lazy developers that can't come up with a decent story. and i am pretty sure archage will have a ton of loading screens like aoc but hey if u like looking at loading screens more power to yah.

  • ichimarunicoichimarunico Member Posts: 210

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    @OP: well, SWTOR is of the family of WoW-styled themepark MMO's like a LotrO, Aion, Rift, etc, so you'll have sandbox fans and people who've gotten burnt out on those MMO's insta-hating SWTOR, that's easy to see, in this thread alone.

     

    As for your arguments:

    sandbox: sorry, has been tried, quite some people liked it especially on this site as 'home for the homeless' sandbox MMO drifters, but SWG didn't reach and maintain the high numbers, it had a rapidly shrinking population when it became dwarfed by newcomers. So, SWTOR will try a themepark SW MMO, we'll see how successful that will be but my guess is it'll prove that SW as a themepark MMO draws a hell of a lot more people than Star Wars as a sandbox MMO did.

    Why do you intentionally disregard time in your assessment as SW sandboxes as a failure? SWG was broken into a themepark before MMORPG genre became mainstream enough to get the kind of numbers that MMOs get today. Sandbox is NOT the reason SWG died, I'm sorry, you're wrong.

    If SWG were polished in its original sandbox form, with some of today's content and items, it would be a monster and everyone knows it.

  • BenthonBenthon Member Posts: 2,069

    Originally posted by zephermarkus

    aoc loads every 20 steps like i said and archage is using the old version of a heavly reprogrammed cry-engine and it also looks no where near as good as crysis 2 on max settings. Also aregage is a sandbox games which means they wont get over 100,000 subs if that. Sandbox games are for lazy developers that can't come up with a decent story. and i am pretty sure archage will have a ton of loading screens like aoc but hey if u like looking at loading screens more power to yah.

     This post is sickening.

    Reminds me of that great quote from Billy Madison.

    "What you just said...is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought, Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points...and may God have mercy on your soul."

     

    Agree with the OP on most points.

    He who keeps his cool best wins.

  • defector1968defector1968 Member UncommonPosts: 449

    Originally posted by greenbow54

    I think what pisses off people on this site the most about SWTOR is that its not Star Eve Ultima Wars Galaxies Online.

     

    What really gets me...is that the game doesn't have a release date and people are so definitive about how some of the features are, and how bad the game fails already..

    I know what you mean

    some people want to ruin the immersion of the game cuz they hate it,

    or they think that will take players from their today MMO

    some people want some issues from others MMOs that they played and liked them, so want them into this game

    some people they will play the game without those that liked in other MMOs just because they dont care so much for them

    some will bored soon ,others will find it extremly good

    some will like the PVE, some will like the full voiced e.t.c.

    Even the gameplay and classes balance for some arent reasons to quit a game

    The only problem that we all hate (and will make us leave) is the long way unfixed bugs and the daily lag


  • Originally posted by defector1968

    Originally posted by gaou


    Originally posted by defector1968


    Originally posted by Caskio


    --snip--

    - Graphics: I like the graphics.  Sure I love Aion's graphics, too.  Which would I prefer? Doens't matter as long as the game is fun.

     - Combat: I didn't expect different combat and I don't know why anyone else would.  Even I can tell it was more of a business decision. Famaliar combat equals a predictable customer base.  I think I prefer the typcal MMORPG combat anyways.

     - Quests: I didn't expect anything different here in terms of quest objectives.  I really can't think of any type of questing that hasn't been done before.  I mean how could you really change the objectives to make it seem different?  Even when they said they wouldn't have the go kill 10 of that quest, I still knew they would.  It can't be escaped unless you remove the quests all together.

     - Endgame: I expected this as well, but even inmy MMO experience, if the endgame doen't have the gear ladder, then it is just a PvP or RP endgame.  That's how SWG was for me, had my crafted gear/ quest weapons and all I did was PvP because there wasn't anything else. 

     - No Sandbox whatsoever: I also remember them saying it wasn't a sandbox or themepark, but even I could tell it was going to be much more of a themepark than anything else.  I mean, you will be following a story and they have told us there are some parts you cannot skip.  I'm interested in this game because of the story and the way it will be presented, not because I would want a crafter's paradise.  I don't think anyone that wants a true sandbox should even come close to buying this game.  You're just going to be dissapointed and regret buying it.

     --snip--

    SWG is that way --->  It still exsists in both forms if you look for it.  But in my opinion, even if SOE brought back Pre-CU or Pre-NGE I still wouldn't go back because the reason I played was the community and friends.  The gameplay only enahnced my fun, but never defined it.  I prefered the CU version anyways.

    About Endgame for you was the PVP for many others was the collections and badges which was a huge pain in the a**

    as for the graphics-quests-gameplay all p2p MMOs are 95% the same no matter what everybody say

    the downside for me is that has no appearance tab and we dont know the storage capacity yet (inventory, backpack, bank, ship)

    heres a little bit regarding storage:

    DamionSchubert General Discussion -> Tatooine "HD" Screen Caps + Mount Description




    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Brianne View Post


    Glad I could show you this information then



    I think Erikson also said that it expands infinitely instead of using backs.



    This could change however.


    You start with 40 slots. You can pay to expand your inventory 10 slots at a time, capped at 80. The price of each row of slots gets progressively more expensive. That being said, any exact values (in terms of price and size) that you might see/hear about are prone to change as we make adjustments to the economy.



    You can also pay to expand your ship's cargo hold, where you can store significantly more items.



    We do not use the 'bag' paradigm that some other MMOs use - it's all one GUI.

    cap 80 inv, unknown if  backpack, unknown ship cap, unknown if bank, Damion didnt say anything about capacity (the inv cap was obvius)

    there is no "backpack" where you buy more bags to increase its size.  you just open the inventory screen and it has an option at the bottom of it to increase its size and that cap is as he says 80.  and you are right, he doesn't say cargo hold size but is that truely something that needs to be known before you get in game?

  • CrazyAl82CrazyAl82 Member Posts: 6

    Originally posted by gaou

    there is no "backpack" where you buy more bags to increase its size.  you just open the inventory screen and it has an option at the bottom of it to increase its size and that cap is as he says 80.  and you are right, he doesn't say cargo hold size but is that truely something that needs to be known before you get in game?

    if its not at least 60 slots on not gonna play the game ...

  • DeeweDeewe Member UncommonPosts: 1,980

    Originally posted by Elikal

     

    - Combat: This combat is so like Everquest from 10 years ago! Stand there, shoot around and repeat.

    Sad but not surprised, BioWare games are known to be average on the combat part. The biggest issue is seeing characters shooting at each others with laser weapons standing in the open. Or even worse like troopers rushing a ranged armed NPC to kick it with his weapon.

    => Reason is suits "knows" MMO and RPG players can't adapt to FPS game play

     

     - Quests: Yes, there is Granny Sithlord telling you 5 minutes about her life and her elaborate background story and then you have the choice to say something nice or something mean (huzzah!) but in those remaining 95% of the game you still will walk around with a shopping list and kill the 10 womprats in Granny Sithlord's cellar and she's going to reward you with a nice womprat-pie STR+10 for 60 min.

    VO story will be fun the first time you run it and (reality check = AoC Tortage) soon you'll wish you could totally skip it without even needing to hit space bar. VO will be fun when wandering around waiting for your friends to log in and join you in your errands.

    - Endgame: So the truth is out. Endgame is WOW. Period.

    I'm relieved I thought it was rolling an alt.

     

    - No Sandbox whatsoever: When TOR was announced, the Bioware devs said TOR was going to be no Sandbox and no Themepark, but a mix of both. It was a lie. TOR is a 100% Themepark and entirely DEVOID of ANY Sandbox elements!

    It's been a long long time since we knew it, not even disappointed anymore. Still sad they intentedly left the non combat oriented players at the door of the party.

     

    I know it will come over as rant, and it prolly is. But now that most of the cards have been revealed I can't help but feel let down. I mean, sure it will be a nice and decend game. I am going to play it a while. But why Bioware aimed for so little in so many core areas... it's something I just don't get why.

    Same I intend to pre-order the CE edition. However not ure I will even pass the 1st month mark

    Few things to add:


    • BioWare do know the space shooter is a miss.

    • The heroic proportions are far from pleasing the majority of the players

    • Wow in space: we have blood elves, warlock suits and huge shoulder pads.

    • Crafting looks unappealing : select companion - click button to have them automatically do something - get results

    • PvP warfronts: (for now) limited to 8 vs 8. Look very small.

    • Boss fight is indeed many players against one boss. Who said heroic yet?

     


    Top of that some of the features that we know won't make the game (at least at launch):


     


    • Swimming

    • Third party addons

    • Minigames like Pazaak, Sabac or Holo-chess

    • Dual spec

    • Day/night cycles

    • Non humanoid based playable races

    • Multiplayer space content

    • 3d space combat

    • Choice of space ship chassis

    • Decoration mechanic for personal ships

    • Pod racing

    • Player bounties

    • Companions in Warzones

    • Companions body/race customization.

    • Animal based pet classes

    • Resources for crafting does not have quality

    • Guild leveling system

    • Animal mounts

    • Planetary housing


    Not confirmed:

    • Appearance tabs

    • Gear Dyes?

    • Display pets?


     


    => Remove SW from the title of the game and think about it.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by ichimarunico

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    @OP: well, SWTOR is of the family of WoW-styled themepark MMO's like a LotrO, Aion, Rift, etc, so you'll have sandbox fans and people who've gotten burnt out on those MMO's insta-hating SWTOR, that's easy to see, in this thread alone.

     

    As for your arguments:

    sandbox: sorry, has been tried, quite some people liked it especially on this site as 'home for the homeless' sandbox MMO drifters, but SWG didn't reach and maintain the high numbers, it had a rapidly shrinking population when it became dwarfed by newcomers. So, SWTOR will try a themepark SW MMO, we'll see how successful that will be but my guess is it'll prove that SW as a themepark MMO draws a hell of a lot more people than Star Wars as a sandbox MMO did.

    Why do you intentionally disregard time in your assessment as SW sandboxes as a failure? SWG was broken into a themepark before MMORPG genre became mainstream enough to get the kind of numbers that MMOs get today. Sandbox is NOT the reason SWG died, I'm sorry, you're wrong.

    If SWG were polished in its original sandbox form, with some of today's content and items, it would be a monster and everyone knows it.

    Yep, I spot a sandbox fan, which automatically explains your stance towards SWTOR, so far I guess I'm right image

    As for SWG, I'm sure that to people like you SWG wasn't a failure. However, it never brought the numbers and success that was expected from such a major franchise even in a time that there was hardly any competition. And even more, for a year before any NGE it started to decrease in population, rapidly, as soon as Everquest 2 and WoW had arrived.

    As devs have stated, the whole NGE thing was a reaction upon their rapidly shrinking population, even before an NGE they'd already lost more than a third of their total population and it started with EQ2 and WoW on the scene.

    If they had left things as they were, this downward trend wouldn't just have stopped magically. Sorry, mate, the Star Wars as a sandbox MMO has been given its shot, it gave its best, so let it rest in peace.

    It's time to see how Star Wars as a themepark styled MMO will do.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • defector1968defector1968 Member UncommonPosts: 449

    Originally posted by gaou

    Originally posted by defector1968


    Originally posted by gaou


    Originally posted by defector1968


    Originally posted by Caskio


    --snip--

    - Graphics: I like the graphics.  Sure I love Aion's graphics, too.  Which would I prefer? Doens't matter as long as the game is fun.

     - Combat: I didn't expect different combat and I don't know why anyone else would.  Even I can tell it was more of a business decision. Famaliar combat equals a predictable customer base.  I think I prefer the typcal MMORPG combat anyways.

     - Quests: I didn't expect anything different here in terms of quest objectives.  I really can't think of any type of questing that hasn't been done before.  I mean how could you really change the objectives to make it seem different?  Even when they said they wouldn't have the go kill 10 of that quest, I still knew they would.  It can't be escaped unless you remove the quests all together.

     - Endgame: I expected this as well, but even inmy MMO experience, if the endgame doen't have the gear ladder, then it is just a PvP or RP endgame.  That's how SWG was for me, had my crafted gear/ quest weapons and all I did was PvP because there wasn't anything else. 

     - No Sandbox whatsoever: I also remember them saying it wasn't a sandbox or themepark, but even I could tell it was going to be much more of a themepark than anything else.  I mean, you will be following a story and they have told us there are some parts you cannot skip.  I'm interested in this game because of the story and the way it will be presented, not because I would want a crafter's paradise.  I don't think anyone that wants a true sandbox should even come close to buying this game.  You're just going to be dissapointed and regret buying it.

     --snip--

    SWG is that way --->  It still exsists in both forms if you look for it.  But in my opinion, even if SOE brought back Pre-CU or Pre-NGE I still wouldn't go back because the reason I played was the community and friends.  The gameplay only enahnced my fun, but never defined it.  I prefered the CU version anyways.

    About Endgame for you was the PVP for many others was the collections and badges which was a huge pain in the a**

    as for the graphics-quests-gameplay all p2p MMOs are 95% the same no matter what everybody say

    the downside for me is that has no appearance tab and we dont know the storage capacity yet (inventory, backpack, bank, ship)

    heres a little bit regarding storage:

    DamionSchubert General Discussion -> Tatooine "HD" Screen Caps + Mount Description




    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Brianne View Post


    Glad I could show you this information then



    I think Erikson also said that it expands infinitely instead of using backs.



    This could change however.


    You start with 40 slots. You can pay to expand your inventory 10 slots at a time, capped at 80. The price of each row of slots gets progressively more expensive. That being said, any exact values (in terms of price and size) that you might see/hear about are prone to change as we make adjustments to the economy.



    You can also pay to expand your ship's cargo hold, where you can store significantly more items.



    We do not use the 'bag' paradigm that some other MMOs use - it's all one GUI.

    cap 80 inv, unknown if  backpack, unknown ship cap, unknown if bank, Damion didnt say anything about capacity (the inv cap was obvius)

    there is no "backpack" where you buy more bags to increase its size.  you just open the inventory screen and it has an option at the bottom of it to increase its size and that cap is as he says 80.  and you are right, he doesn't say cargo hold size but is that truely something that needs to be known before you get in game?

    Since we can have 8 chars per server, i want to know at least (i'm mostly sure, but a confirmation will be pleassed) if we can transfer items between those chars, so i can create all 8 from the start to proceed for more slots in all of them

    (also hope that we can transfer BoP items too)

  • BenthonBenthon Member Posts: 2,069

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by ichimarunico

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    @OP: well, SWTOR is of the family of WoW-styled themepark MMO's like a LotrO, Aion, Rift, etc, so you'll have sandbox fans and people who've gotten burnt out on those MMO's insta-hating SWTOR, that's easy to see, in this thread alone.

     

    As for your arguments:

    sandbox: sorry, has been tried, quite some people liked it especially on this site as 'home for the homeless' sandbox MMO drifters, but SWG didn't reach and maintain the high numbers, it had a rapidly shrinking population when it became dwarfed by newcomers. So, SWTOR will try a themepark SW MMO, we'll see how successful that will be but my guess is it'll prove that SW as a themepark MMO draws a hell of a lot more people than Star Wars as a sandbox MMO did.

    Why do you intentionally disregard time in your assessment as SW sandboxes as a failure? SWG was broken into a themepark before MMORPG genre became mainstream enough to get the kind of numbers that MMOs get today. Sandbox is NOT the reason SWG died, I'm sorry, you're wrong.

    If SWG were polished in its original sandbox form, with some of today's content and items, it would be a monster and everyone knows it.

    Yep, I spot a sandbox fan, which automatically explains your stance towards SWTOR, so far I guess I'm right image

    As for SWG, I'm sure that to people like you SWG wasn't a failure. However, it never brought the numbers and success that was expected from such a major franchise even in a time that there was hardly any competition. And even more, for a year before any NGE it started to decrease in population, rapidly, as soon as Everquest 2 and WoW had arrived.

    As devs have stated, the whole NGE thing was a reaction upon their rapidly shrinking population, even before an NGE they'd already lost more than a third of their total population and it started with EQ2 and WoW on the scene.

    If they had left things as they were, this downward trend wouldn't just have stopped magically. Sorry, mate, the Star Wars as a sandbox MMO has been given its shot, it gave its best, so let it rest in peace.

    It's time to see how Star Wars as a themepark styled MMO will do.

     Still, trying to apply today's market trends to 2003 and saying it was "a sinking ship" is still rubbish. They lost a 1/3rd of their population, which was still a accomplished amount among the market. The main reason (I think) people left for WoW was the success of the Warcraft IP, through Warcraft 3. Star Wars and Warcraft IP's clashed and Warcraft's just had a tighter hold on people from W3 and TFT.

    He who keeps his cool best wins.


  • Originally posted by defector1968

    Originally posted by gaou


    Originally posted by defector1968


    Originally posted by gaou


    Originally posted by defector1968


    Originally posted by Caskio


    --snip--

    - Graphics: I like the graphics.  Sure I love Aion's graphics, too.  Which would I prefer? Doens't matter as long as the game is fun.

     - Combat: I didn't expect different combat and I don't know why anyone else would.  Even I can tell it was more of a business decision. Famaliar combat equals a predictable customer base.  I think I prefer the typcal MMORPG combat anyways.

     - Quests: I didn't expect anything different here in terms of quest objectives.  I really can't think of any type of questing that hasn't been done before.  I mean how could you really change the objectives to make it seem different?  Even when they said they wouldn't have the go kill 10 of that quest, I still knew they would.  It can't be escaped unless you remove the quests all together.

     - Endgame: I expected this as well, but even inmy MMO experience, if the endgame doen't have the gear ladder, then it is just a PvP or RP endgame.  That's how SWG was for me, had my crafted gear/ quest weapons and all I did was PvP because there wasn't anything else. 

     - No Sandbox whatsoever: I also remember them saying it wasn't a sandbox or themepark, but even I could tell it was going to be much more of a themepark than anything else.  I mean, you will be following a story and they have told us there are some parts you cannot skip.  I'm interested in this game because of the story and the way it will be presented, not because I would want a crafter's paradise.  I don't think anyone that wants a true sandbox should even come close to buying this game.  You're just going to be dissapointed and regret buying it.

     --snip--

    SWG is that way --->  It still exsists in both forms if you look for it.  But in my opinion, even if SOE brought back Pre-CU or Pre-NGE I still wouldn't go back because the reason I played was the community and friends.  The gameplay only enahnced my fun, but never defined it.  I prefered the CU version anyways.

    About Endgame for you was the PVP for many others was the collections and badges which was a huge pain in the a**

    as for the graphics-quests-gameplay all p2p MMOs are 95% the same no matter what everybody say

    the downside for me is that has no appearance tab and we dont know the storage capacity yet (inventory, backpack, bank, ship)

    heres a little bit regarding storage:

    DamionSchubert General Discussion -> Tatooine "HD" Screen Caps + Mount Description




    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Brianne View Post


    Glad I could show you this information then



    I think Erikson also said that it expands infinitely instead of using backs.



    This could change however.


    You start with 40 slots. You can pay to expand your inventory 10 slots at a time, capped at 80. The price of each row of slots gets progressively more expensive. That being said, any exact values (in terms of price and size) that you might see/hear about are prone to change as we make adjustments to the economy.



    You can also pay to expand your ship's cargo hold, where you can store significantly more items.



    We do not use the 'bag' paradigm that some other MMOs use - it's all one GUI.

    cap 80 inv, unknown if  backpack, unknown ship cap, unknown if bank, Damion didnt say anything about capacity (the inv cap was obvius)

    there is no "backpack" where you buy more bags to increase its size.  you just open the inventory screen and it has an option at the bottom of it to increase its size and that cap is as he says 80.  and you are right, he doesn't say cargo hold size but is that truely something that needs to be known before you get in game?

    Since we can have 8 chars per server, i want to know at least (i'm mostly sure, but a confirmation will be pleassed) if we can transfer items between those chars, so i can create all 8 from the start to proceed for more slots in all of them

    ah i see.  well no wrod on any kind of shared storage at this time.  only option we know of right now is to send stuff through the mailbox and no idea if that would work between factions

  • defector1968defector1968 Member UncommonPosts: 449

    Originally posted by gaou

    Originally posted by defector1968


    Originally posted by gaou


    Originally posted by defector1968

    cap 80 inv, unknown if  backpack, unknown ship cap, unknown if bank, Damion didnt say anything about capacity (the inv cap was obvius)

    there is no "backpack" where you buy more bags to increase its size.  you just open the inventory screen and it has an option at the bottom of it to increase its size and that cap is as he says 80.  and you are right, he doesn't say cargo hold size but is that truely something that needs to be known before you get in game?

    Since we can have 8 chars per server, i want to know at least (i'm mostly sure, but a confirmation will be pleassed) if we can transfer items between those chars, so i can create all 8 from the start to proceed for more slots in all of them

    ah i see.  well no wrod on any kind of shared storage at this time.  only option we know of right now is to send stuff through the mailbox and no idea if that would work between factions

    since we have ship storage and we can use it as public to others can vizit them, maybe they manage them that we can admin our alter chars so with everyone of them to pick/drop items in every ship, the mailbox looks too old fashion way, but both ways will be doing fine.

    Since we can have both factions chars in 1 server i dont see any reason not let us transfer items between our chars no matter what

  • CrazyAl82CrazyAl82 Member Posts: 6

    what do you all mean by appearance tab?

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