Get rid of it. Also, how do you know guild wars 2 is boring because of no trinity if....you havent played it? You still have roles in that game, its just not the traditional trinity
If we added cc to the holy trinity. EG: psi aoe freeze, bard cause conflict (makes monsters fight each other) then it would elliminate the need for tanks.
I just want to take a second here and make sure we're all talking about the same thing. Gameplay can be about a lot of things...tanking, dps, healing, crowd control, buffing, debuffing, damage prevention. The reason we even think about a trinity is because that is what WoW has become. When I refer to a holy trinity of tank/dps/healer, that's a situation where hybrids aren't even remotely viable. When your job is to do one thing and one thing only and every decision you make regarding gear, talents, etc are all focused on maximizing that one aspect of play.
I touched on this in my last post but I think the OP is under the impression that GW2 will be a bland zerg where everybody just DPSes and stops to heal themselves when they need it. The way I see GW2 is that people will have roles, and the key is to be able to adopt different roles on the fly.
One thing about GW2 which I'm not sure everybody realizes is that the aggro system is totally different. In a traditional MMO, the mob is hitting a tank who does little damage but holds aggro through additional threat and taunts. In GW2, mobs will try to attack people more intuitively. They will focus on healers and casters and lighter armored people if possible. They might attack closer targets if they're significantly damaging or if the mob is snared. In a traditional MMO a tank is going to tank it and nobody is going to pull aggro unless they want to die. In GW2, someone is going to load up on control skills. They are going to try to gain aggro and hold the mob just by doing damage. They are going to lose aggro, it's guaranteed, but their role is going to be the same as a tank's, keeping the mob from killing that other guy. The difference is that it's not done with a threatmeter, it's done with a knockdown, cripple or blind. And we've seen that mobs really don't like squishy people (skip ahead to 1:45).
The other difference is that it's not just all up to the tank and healer while the DPS just nuke and run out of the fire. The guy who is "tanking" in GW2 is going to only have a few skills with some long cooldowns. They're also going to be responsible for healing themselves somewhat. They can't do it all. So somebody else who in who would just be DPSing in WoW has to step in for a moment and pick up the slack. Or they have to dodge and protect themselves for a while.
TL:DR. GW2 is not getting rid of "trinity" gameplay, it's getting rid of "holy trinity" gameplay.
Good post, Cali.
The thing with no trinity is that you actually have to always watch the combat closely and be prepared to change tactics on the fly. Mobs are not so stupid that they spend all their time hacking on the guy in full plate because he insult their mother, instead they will go on the cloth user that keeps nuking him. There is more strategy to combat like that.
any game that does not require the trinity will be trivial to those who use the trinity...
Lol. not exactly. I got some Wow buddies into Guildwars a few years ago, half of them quit and they stated it was because combat was too hard. Several of them are in large raid guilds.
Trinity combat is easier, there you only need to do one role. If you DPS the only thing you need to do is making enough DPS but not more than the tank can handle. With no trinity you also needs to be able to pull mobs away from someone about to die and keep score on yours and the others health.
I'm actually okay with the trinity how it currently is, now hear me out.
I don't think it's the trinity as it is that is the problem. I think it's more down to how the mob reacts to this trinity. I firmly believe you can still have tank/dps/healer and have very interesting gameplay if you just randomize the enemy AI a little, give them a few trinity roles they can switch to on the fly. One moment they are meleeing you, then they back off and start trying to pick the healer off at range. If too much rage is built up then one of the other characters locks the tank down and they start focusing on the damage dealer. Things like that. I guess i just feel if you beef up the enemy AI with more avoidance, lock down player with abilities and have ways to undo or "forget" about the taunt for a few moments and blast at a random target in your group trying to kill it for all they can. That would make things more interesting and you wouldn't have to do anything at all to the trinity.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
ok so I am in a fight for my life, Three guys are opposing me. 1(tank) a tough guy i cant hurt much but talks alot of trash and hits kinda weak, 2(dps) a guy who hits really hard but is frail, and 3(healer) a guy whos about average in durability but can heal the others.
now we may expect too much of game developers but if I were in that fight I would likely save tank for last. dps would be easiest to take out , but the healer would interfere. Healer dps tank , if its what you would do why do AI in games have to do otherwise. hell give the AI a chance make players subject to threat see how they like it.
I'm agreeing with the above (and many other posters related to this topic) in that AI needs to be better. In a game with the 'Trinity' used it would make more sense for the AI to go for who would be the most treatening. IF a party consisted of true "Tank, DPS, and Healer" then yes, it makes sense to get rid of heals first then by who else is the next most dangerous. If a party contained CC I would think AI might kill that next and so on...
However, subjecting players to Threat mechanics, which are only included in games to simplify combat, would only add to the problems some gamers (myself included) have with facerolling. Hel, people have issues with games that force grouping imagine the gamer-rage that would ensue if you forced targeting!
No, getting away from the "holy trinity" completely isn't the answer, but I for one am not happy with it as it is now. Intelligent AI and removing threat mechanics, or changing them somehow, is part of what's needed. In the above scenario the AI might go for the healer first, if it knows the healer is there, because it can be both a soft target and makes the fight last longer. But in real combat you also have to focus on what's most dangerous. You might want to take that medic out, but the big dude with a sword or shotgun running at you might be more important. Or maybe that sniper/machine gunner over yonder?
In that case the AI needs to learn how to FOCUS on targets that are in it's threat zone compared to what kind of damage it can do. If it's slow damage then going for DPS first isn't viable, burst damage maybe go for DPS or heals, etc...
Eh, that's my take on it at least. Sorry for the almost Wall O'Text.
___________~____________ Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. - Oscar Wilde
ok so I am in a fight for my life, Three guys are opposing me. 1(tank) a tough guy i cant hurt much but talks alot of trash and hits kinda weak, 2(dps) a guy who hits really hard but is frail, and 3(healer) a guy whos about average in durability but can heal the others.
now we may expect too much of game developers but if I were in that fight I would likely save tank for last. dps would be easiest to take out , but the healer would interfere. Healer dps tank , if its what you would do why do AI in games have to do otherwise. hell give the AI a chance make players subject to threat see how they like it.
And in a game like DAOC you killed the crowd control 1st, then the healers, followed by DPS and last the tanks.
Mythic tried to mess with this with the TOA expansion by giving tanks this particular master ability
8 Bodyguard - Defensive chances (evade/parry) are reduced by 20%, but target of bodyguard can't be attacked in melee until bodyguard is killed or moves out of range
which of course was normally put on the healers and crowd controllers. (was a big reason why I quit the game, was a hard ability to obtain, and if you hit an 8 man that had 2 or 3 tanks with it you pretty much could not win, even with big numbers)
I guess since GW2 will be either no healers, or everyone is a healer the AI will be designed sort of like GW1's which several folks have posted.
Sounds like they plan to have the AI target the squisher targets first unless the DPS/Snaring characters can build up enough threat to turn their interest.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sounds like they plan to have the AI target the squisher targets first unless the DPS/Snaring characters can build up enough threat to turn their interest.
It's not really a matter of building up threat, it's a case of making yourself the only available target. Snares and knockdowns and various forms of control are a great way of keeping a melee enemy in check. Heck, lots of crowd control works wonders on ranged characters too... especially because you can block projectile lines with your own body. So run between enemy and friend, use your shield, mission accomplished.
It's funny watching a GW1 fight where the healers are running around like mad being chased by angry melee people.
Squishy people should run and dodge and duck behind more durable friends.
Sounds like they plan to have the AI target the squisher targets first unless the DPS/Snaring characters can build up enough threat to turn their interest.
It's funny watching a GW1 fight where the ELUHMENTALISTS are running around like mad being chased by angry melee people.
Squishy people should run and dodge and duck behind more durable friends.
Fixed it for you. *Casting Meteor Shower* *Interrupted* *Melee mobs come close* *Dead*.
Fixed it for you. *Casting Meteor Shower* *Interrupted* *Melee mobs come close* *Dead*.
Hmm. For some reason, I always had RL people playing elementalists (I tended to duo when I played GW). Creative cowardice and running into the fight at the right time to drop some heavy spells makes you last a lot longer.
Actually, maybe my monks wouldn't have been running around so much if I paid more attention to them. I'm a failure as a hero manager.
Fixed it for you. *Casting Meteor Shower* *Interrupted* *Melee mobs come close* *Dead*.
Hmm. For some reason, I always had RL people playing elementalists (I tended to duo when I played GW). Creative cowardice and running into the fight at the right time to drop some heavy spells makes you last a lot longer.
Actually, maybe my monks wouldn't have been running around so much if I paid more attention to them. I'm a failure as a hero manager.
I didn't know you were supposed to manage them, I just threw some arrows down on the map.
So holy trinity means tank, DPS and healers and some people want to get rid of that. Why? It is quite interesting to have different roles in combat, instead of everyone being able to heal, tank and DPS.
So instead of removing three and replacing it with one why not expand it instead? Make Crowd Control and debuffers more prelavent by requiring them in group mobs. Introduce hybrids which can successfully fill two roles. I know this has already been done but not enough. Often CCs are not needed and hybrids are considered gimps but that is the fault of the devs for not designing the mobs properly.
Anyway, just my two cents why having different roles is a good thing, the more the better. Hearing that GW 2 wont need healers as everyone can heal and dont need tanks as everyone can tank and same with DPS, just makes playing the game more boring as everyone will be more like each other.
So its a 4 page thread now where OP have not responded! And all just comes down to that people do not use the word trinity about the same stuff.
But to make it short. Guild Wars 2 is removing the HOLY trinity, not the trinity. the Trinity itself is exsactly exspanded and developed to a degree where it might match the you are suggesting. So my advice is to look up what is read about GW2. So you wont need to asume that removing tank and healer makes a boring game.
Sounds like they plan to have the AI target the squisher targets first unless the DPS/Snaring characters can build up enough threat to turn their interest.
It's funny watching a GW1 fight where the ELUHMENTALISTS are running around like mad being chased by angry melee people.
Squishy people should run and dodge and duck behind more durable friends.
Fixed it for you. *Casting Meteor Shower* *Interrupted* *Melee mobs come close* *Dead*.
LOL you forgot he cast "Assassin's Promise" so it was a insta cast "Meteor Shower".
The following statement is false The previous statement is true
the holy trinity in classic everquest --- was not tank / healer / dps
it was tank / healer / CC (read enchanter)
not quite. the holy trinity in EQ1 was and has always been tank / healer / support. support role can be in the form of CC, but not always required. it just happens that CC was usually the most efficent and effective because enchanters back in the day actually learned how to play their class (the pre crack bot era's) chanters saw little action in the velious era due to the giant/dragon flag which prevented conventional CCing, but it was in this era that enchanters truely learned the power of pulling and became even more powerful pullers then monks if they knew how to do it right:D
dps was never considered part of the trinity tho. cuz they are a dime a dozen and you can get dps anywhere/anytime you have the trinity already.
any game that does not require the trinity will be trivial to those who use the trinity...
Lol. not exactly. I got some Wow buddies into Guildwars a few years ago, half of them quit and they stated it was because combat was too hard. Several of them are in large raid guilds.
Trinity combat is easier, there you only need to do one role. If you DPS the only thing you need to do is making enough DPS but not more than the tank can handle. With no trinity you also needs to be able to pull mobs away from someone about to die and keep score on yours and the others health.
hehe, well i dont exactly consider WoW a "raiding" game:D a LARGE raid in WoW is a "small" raid in EQ:D a "small" raid in WoW is "group / 2boxing content" in EQ;p
if you think "trinity" style combat is "easy" then i'd have to say you've never done a real raid:)
trinity style combat evolved out of need due to the difficulty of the encounter. it's not "just because"... it was "required" to even have a chance of beating the content of that difficulty. if you havent fought bosses that can kill the best dressed tank in 1 lucky crit then you wouldnt understand what kind of difficulty i'm refering to:) this is the reason why they had 2ndary and tertiary tanks back in EQ1 days:) no single tank can be expected to live through a boss fight:)
any game that does not require the trinity will be trivial to those who use the trinity...
Like chess. Or soccer. WoW players constantly dominate in both fields, and it's gotten to the point where the main method they use to judge if you're a good player is '... but have you played WoW?'
sigh.... heheh it's almost like asking arnold schwarzenegger "but have you lifted weights before?":D
i never had an issue with my eq-nec be a jack-of-all trades. it was hard to beat my sustained dps in long fights, even if i never been fast killer. necs been more versatile pullers than monks. and i could crowd control pretty good. ok, had just 1 useful buff but some debuffs. in groups sometimes we started with me as mainhealer, until we found a cler. and some people been surprised, if the nec was lifetap-tanking the mob, if the tank died at 90%. and after all, if everything went wrong, the 1st question of the raidleader was: any nec is still alive and feign death?
so i cant complain about hybrid classes. i love versatilty. and even if GW2 got no trinity. there will be a need to tank, heal, cc and do damage. sounds like the "unholy trinity" in EQ. not as strong and specialized like the holy trinity, but with a great and far superior versatilty.
PS: and correct, these mini-raids nowadays used to be group content in these older days.
in groups sometimes we started with me as mainhealer
it's good to see a REAL necro:) so many necros out there never even realized they CAN be main healer:D this reminds me of a group i had back in velk lab where I(enchanter) was the "main healer" and a ranger was my backup healer:D the group lasted 2 solid hours of none stop pulls:D
Originally posted by Yamota So holy trinity means tank, DPS and healers and some people want to get rid of that. Why? It is quite interesting to have different roles in combat, instead of everyone being able to heal, tank and DPS. So instead of removing three and replacing it with one why not expand it instead? Make Crowd Control and debuffers more prelavent by requiring them in group mobs. Introduce hybrids which can successfully fill two roles. I know this has already been done but not enough. Often CCs are not needed and hybrids are considered gimps but that is the fault of the devs for not designing the mobs properly. Anyway, just my two cents why having different roles is a good thing, the more the better. Hearing that GW 2 wont need healers as everyone can heal and dont need tanks as everyone can tank and same with DPS, just makes playing the game more boring as everyone will be more like each other.
I agree but unfortunately, that type of game design doesnt work for kids these days. They will rage over having to find just a healer. Could you imagine if they had to also find 4 other specific classes? The path of zero resistance is the name of the game these days and convenience is synonymous with innovation. Isnt that lovely?
I like how Rift approached it. Instead of having the 4 classes only be limited to the trinity, you can change which part of the trinity you wanted or needed to be. I think this is a much better option than what GW2 is doing. I have a feeling there won't be a sense of group when you're with other people. It's going to be more like soloing with just some other people also soloing on the same mobs.
I like how Rift approached it. Instead of having the 4 classes only be limited to the trinity, you can change which part of the trinity you wanted or needed to be. I think this is a much better option than what GW2 is doing.
The problem with Rift's class design is that there are only 4 classes. This extremely limits the replayability factor and it also has the fact that some souls just don't work with each other. It is also extremely difficult to balance (a dev mentioned they aren't going to bother balancing it because they believe there are too many combinations for it to be a problem. Balance has been proven to be a major problem). Rift's class system also does nothing about taking tank n' spank out of combat.
The way GW2 is doing it is giving you 8 different classes with completely unique mechanics that play completely differently from each other. Weapons also determine the first 5 skills on your bar and determine your playstyle in combat. Each class also gets thier own dedicated healing slot. There is also a button on the skillbar that allows you to switch weapons in mid combat which makes for more flexible roles and allows for more strategy during combat rather than the unflexible holy trinity which consists of tank n' spank and thats it.
These are the three main tasks. There is no fourth role to that.
That doesnt mean theres plenty of other stuff you can do, like buffing, debuffing, crowd control (fear, root, snare, slow, confusion, dominate, ...), and other utility (exploring, stealth, wipe survival, pulling, ...). But those are used to spice up the classes, they arent really core roles.
However the designers design the mobs, they cannot change the fact that a group facing a simple encounter will only need the three core roles, and not a single one more.
Sorry, but only the hard encounters actually require any strategy. If you want to make people desired for group, you need to give them more.
I like how Rift approached it. Instead of having the 4 classes only be limited to the trinity, you can change which part of the trinity you wanted or needed to be. I think this is a much better option than what GW2 is doing.
The problem with Rift's class design is that there are only 4 classes. This extremely limits the replayability factor and it also has the fact that some souls just don't work with each other. It is also extremely difficult to balance (a dev mentioned they aren't going to bother balancing it because they believe there are too many combinations for it to be a problem. Balance has been proven to be a major problem). Rift's class system also does nothing about taking tank n' spank out of combat.
The way GW2 is doing it is giving you 8 different classes with completely unique mechanics that play completely differently from each other. Weapons also determine the first 5 skills on your bar and determine your playstyle in combat. Each class also gets thier own dedicated healing slot. There is also a button on the skillbar that allows you to switch weapons in mid combat which makes for more flexible roles and allows for more strategy during combat rather than the unflexible holy trinity which consists of tank n' spank and thats it.
I'll believe this when I see it. Melee classes will hit stuff with a stick, (sword, mace, what have you), archers will shoot arrows, spell casters will cast spells, everyone will self heal, and everyone will have some sort of crowd control.
Play completely differently.....right.
BTW, in DAOC we used to switch weapons in combat, so nothing new here in this regard either.
Look, I really hope GW2 turns out to be a great and fun game, but I really think too many folks are setting themselves up for disappointment thinking it is somehow bringing a totally new way to play MMO's or something. It will be somewhat different, and perhaps very different for folks who's experience in MMO's has been WOW and its many offshoots, but the 2nd coming of MMO gaming its not.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Get rid of it. Also, how do you know guild wars 2 is boring because of no trinity if....you havent played it? You still have roles in that game, its just not the traditional trinity
If we added cc to the holy trinity. EG: psi aoe freeze, bard cause conflict (makes monsters fight each other) then it would elliminate the need for tanks.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Good post, Cali.
The thing with no trinity is that you actually have to always watch the combat closely and be prepared to change tactics on the fly. Mobs are not so stupid that they spend all their time hacking on the guy in full plate because he insult their mother, instead they will go on the cloth user that keeps nuking him. There is more strategy to combat like that.
Lol. not exactly. I got some Wow buddies into Guildwars a few years ago, half of them quit and they stated it was because combat was too hard. Several of them are in large raid guilds.
Trinity combat is easier, there you only need to do one role. If you DPS the only thing you need to do is making enough DPS but not more than the tank can handle. With no trinity you also needs to be able to pull mobs away from someone about to die and keep score on yours and the others health.
10 years ago,
the holy trinity in classic everquest --- was not tank / healer / dps
it was tank / healer / CC (read enchanter)
CC used to be more dominant pre WOW -- in games like Everquest and DAOC
but CC was difficult to balance so its role has lessened over time
Guildwars2 still has a trinity -- its just not the traditonal trinity
GW2 trinity is Control, Support, Damage
EQ2 fan sites
I'm actually okay with the trinity how it currently is, now hear me out.
I don't think it's the trinity as it is that is the problem. I think it's more down to how the mob reacts to this trinity. I firmly believe you can still have tank/dps/healer and have very interesting gameplay if you just randomize the enemy AI a little, give them a few trinity roles they can switch to on the fly. One moment they are meleeing you, then they back off and start trying to pick the healer off at range. If too much rage is built up then one of the other characters locks the tank down and they start focusing on the damage dealer. Things like that. I guess i just feel if you beef up the enemy AI with more avoidance, lock down player with abilities and have ways to undo or "forget" about the taunt for a few moments and blast at a random target in your group trying to kill it for all they can. That would make things more interesting and you wouldn't have to do anything at all to the trinity.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
ok so I am in a fight for my life, Three guys are opposing me. 1(tank) a tough guy i cant hurt much but talks alot of trash and hits kinda weak, 2(dps) a guy who hits really hard but is frail, and 3(healer) a guy whos about average in durability but can heal the others.
now we may expect too much of game developers but if I were in that fight I would likely save tank for last. dps would be easiest to take out , but the healer would interfere. Healer dps tank , if its what you would do why do AI in games have to do otherwise. hell give the AI a chance make players subject to threat see how they like it.
I'm agreeing with the above (and many other posters related to this topic) in that AI needs to be better. In a game with the 'Trinity' used it would make more sense for the AI to go for who would be the most treatening. IF a party consisted of true "Tank, DPS, and Healer" then yes, it makes sense to get rid of heals first then by who else is the next most dangerous. If a party contained CC I would think AI might kill that next and so on...
However, subjecting players to Threat mechanics, which are only included in games to simplify combat, would only add to the problems some gamers (myself included) have with facerolling. Hel, people have issues with games that force grouping imagine the gamer-rage that would ensue if you forced targeting!
No, getting away from the "holy trinity" completely isn't the answer, but I for one am not happy with it as it is now. Intelligent AI and removing threat mechanics, or changing them somehow, is part of what's needed. In the above scenario the AI might go for the healer first, if it knows the healer is there, because it can be both a soft target and makes the fight last longer. But in real combat you also have to focus on what's most dangerous. You might want to take that medic out, but the big dude with a sword or shotgun running at you might be more important. Or maybe that sniper/machine gunner over yonder?
In that case the AI needs to learn how to FOCUS on targets that are in it's threat zone compared to what kind of damage it can do. If it's slow damage then going for DPS first isn't viable, burst damage maybe go for DPS or heals, etc...
Eh, that's my take on it at least. Sorry for the almost Wall O'Text.
___________~____________
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. - Oscar Wilde
And in a game like DAOC you killed the crowd control 1st, then the healers, followed by DPS and last the tanks.
Mythic tried to mess with this with the TOA expansion by giving tanks this particular master ability
8 Bodyguard - Defensive chances (evade/parry) are reduced by 20%, but target of bodyguard can't be attacked in melee until bodyguard is killed or moves out of range
which of course was normally put on the healers and crowd controllers. (was a big reason why I quit the game, was a hard ability to obtain, and if you hit an 8 man that had 2 or 3 tanks with it you pretty much could not win, even with big numbers)
I guess since GW2 will be either no healers, or everyone is a healer the AI will be designed sort of like GW1's which several folks have posted.
Sounds like they plan to have the AI target the squisher targets first unless the DPS/Snaring characters can build up enough threat to turn their interest.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's not really a matter of building up threat, it's a case of making yourself the only available target. Snares and knockdowns and various forms of control are a great way of keeping a melee enemy in check. Heck, lots of crowd control works wonders on ranged characters too... especially because you can block projectile lines with your own body. So run between enemy and friend, use your shield, mission accomplished.
It's funny watching a GW1 fight where the healers are running around like mad being chased by angry melee people.
Squishy people should run and dodge and duck behind more durable friends.
Fixed it for you. *Casting Meteor Shower* *Interrupted* *Melee mobs come close* *Dead*.
Hmm. For some reason, I always had RL people playing elementalists (I tended to duo when I played GW). Creative cowardice and running into the fight at the right time to drop some heavy spells makes you last a lot longer.
Actually, maybe my monks wouldn't have been running around so much if I paid more attention to them. I'm a failure as a hero manager.
I didn't know you were supposed to manage them, I just threw some arrows down on the map.
So its a 4 page thread now where OP have not responded! And all just comes down to that people do not use the word trinity about the same stuff.
But to make it short. Guild Wars 2 is removing the HOLY trinity, not the trinity. the Trinity itself is exsactly exspanded and developed to a degree where it might match the you are suggesting. So my advice is to look up what is read about GW2. So you wont need to asume that removing tank and healer makes a boring game.
LOL you forgot he cast "Assassin's Promise" so it was a insta cast "Meteor Shower".
The following statement is false
The previous statement is true
not quite. the holy trinity in EQ1 was and has always been tank / healer / support. support role can be in the form of CC, but not always required. it just happens that CC was usually the most efficent and effective because enchanters back in the day actually learned how to play their class (the pre crack bot era's) chanters saw little action in the velious era due to the giant/dragon flag which prevented conventional CCing, but it was in this era that enchanters truely learned the power of pulling and became even more powerful pullers then monks if they knew how to do it right:D
dps was never considered part of the trinity tho. cuz they are a dime a dozen and you can get dps anywhere/anytime you have the trinity already.
hehe, well i dont exactly consider WoW a "raiding" game:D a LARGE raid in WoW is a "small" raid in EQ:D a "small" raid in WoW is "group / 2boxing content" in EQ;p
if you think "trinity" style combat is "easy" then i'd have to say you've never done a real raid:)
trinity style combat evolved out of need due to the difficulty of the encounter. it's not "just because"... it was "required" to even have a chance of beating the content of that difficulty. if you havent fought bosses that can kill the best dressed tank in 1 lucky crit then you wouldnt understand what kind of difficulty i'm refering to:) this is the reason why they had 2ndary and tertiary tanks back in EQ1 days:) no single tank can be expected to live through a boss fight:)
sigh.... heheh it's almost like asking arnold schwarzenegger "but have you lifted weights before?":D
aaah, these good old days
i never had an issue with my eq-nec be a jack-of-all trades. it was hard to beat my sustained dps in long fights, even if i never been fast killer. necs been more versatile pullers than monks. and i could crowd control pretty good. ok, had just 1 useful buff but some debuffs. in groups sometimes we started with me as mainhealer, until we found a cler. and some people been surprised, if the nec was lifetap-tanking the mob, if the tank died at 90%. and after all, if everything went wrong, the 1st question of the raidleader was: any nec is still alive and feign death?
so i cant complain about hybrid classes. i love versatilty. and even if GW2 got no trinity. there will be a need to tank, heal, cc and do damage. sounds like the "unholy trinity" in EQ. not as strong and specialized like the holy trinity, but with a great and far superior versatilty.
PS: and correct, these mini-raids nowadays used to be group content in these older days.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
it's good to see a REAL necro:) so many necros out there never even realized they CAN be main healer:D this reminds me of a group i had back in velk lab where I(enchanter) was the "main healer" and a ranger was my backup healer:D the group lasted 2 solid hours of none stop pulls:D
I agree but unfortunately, that type of game design doesnt work for kids these days. They will rage over having to find just a healer. Could you imagine if they had to also find 4 other specific classes? The path of zero resistance is the name of the game these days and convenience is synonymous with innovation. Isnt that lovely?
I like how Rift approached it. Instead of having the 4 classes only be limited to the trinity, you can change which part of the trinity you wanted or needed to be. I think this is a much better option than what GW2 is doing. I have a feeling there won't be a sense of group when you're with other people. It's going to be more like soloing with just some other people also soloing on the same mobs.
The problem with Rift's class design is that there are only 4 classes. This extremely limits the replayability factor and it also has the fact that some souls just don't work with each other. It is also extremely difficult to balance (a dev mentioned they aren't going to bother balancing it because they believe there are too many combinations for it to be a problem. Balance has been proven to be a major problem). Rift's class system also does nothing about taking tank n' spank out of combat.
The way GW2 is doing it is giving you 8 different classes with completely unique mechanics that play completely differently from each other. Weapons also determine the first 5 skills on your bar and determine your playstyle in combat. Each class also gets thier own dedicated healing slot. There is also a button on the skillbar that allows you to switch weapons in mid combat which makes for more flexible roles and allows for more strategy during combat rather than the unflexible holy trinity which consists of tank n' spank and thats it.
Err ... thats impossible.
Holy Trinity is 3 core roles:
1. Sustain damage
2. Compensate damage
3. Emit damage
These are the three main tasks. There is no fourth role to that.
That doesnt mean theres plenty of other stuff you can do, like buffing, debuffing, crowd control (fear, root, snare, slow, confusion, dominate, ...), and other utility (exploring, stealth, wipe survival, pulling, ...). But those are used to spice up the classes, they arent really core roles.
However the designers design the mobs, they cannot change the fact that a group facing a simple encounter will only need the three core roles, and not a single one more.
Sorry, but only the hard encounters actually require any strategy. If you want to make people desired for group, you need to give them more.
I'll believe this when I see it. Melee classes will hit stuff with a stick, (sword, mace, what have you), archers will shoot arrows, spell casters will cast spells, everyone will self heal, and everyone will have some sort of crowd control.
Play completely differently.....right.
BTW, in DAOC we used to switch weapons in combat, so nothing new here in this regard either.
Look, I really hope GW2 turns out to be a great and fun game, but I really think too many folks are setting themselves up for disappointment thinking it is somehow bringing a totally new way to play MMO's or something. It will be somewhat different, and perhaps very different for folks who's experience in MMO's has been WOW and its many offshoots, but the 2nd coming of MMO gaming its not.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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