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Will tanking classes (Juggernaut, etc) be expected to be primary tank?

Just curious what your guy's thoughts are.

It happens with every new MMO. The game offers options for people to play multiple roles, but the core tanking classes still end up being tanks. I've read Juggernauts for example, has a DPS and a Tanking tree - but Im willing to bet majority who roll Juggernaut will be tanks and likely that'll be their expectation when doing group content.

 

Agree/disagree?

«1

Comments

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by Cammy

    Just curious what your guy's thoughts are.

    It happens with every new MMO. The game offers options for people to play multiple roles, but the core tanking classes still end up being tanks. I've read Juggernauts for example, has a DPS and a Tanking tree - but Im willing to bet majority who roll Juggernaut will be tanks and likely that'll be their expectation when doing group content.

     

    Agree/disagree?

    Of course, isn't this how it always goes with everything MMO? Players forcing artificial limitations on themselves and others has been common practice for a while now. Hell this kind of thing was the norm way back in SWG as well, a skill based game where you could be what ever you wanted. Yet most stuck to popular builds that were viewed as "needed".

    There's PVP gear so I must grind for it, I have no choice, there's raid gear I must grind for it, I have no choice. This skill line gives me this I must use it, I have no choice.

    All of these things are player derived musts, no one is forcing anyone to do these things except the players themselves.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • CammyCammy Member Posts: 864

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by Cammy

    Just curious what your guy's thoughts are.

    It happens with every new MMO. The game offers options for people to play multiple roles, but the core tanking classes still end up being tanks. I've read Juggernauts for example, has a DPS and a Tanking tree - but Im willing to bet majority who roll Juggernaut will be tanks and likely that'll be their expectation when doing group content.

     

    Agree/disagree?

    Of course, isn't this how it always goes with everything MMO? Players forcing artificial limitations on themselves and others has been common practice for a while now. Hell this kind of thing was the norm way back in SWG as well, a skill based game where you could be what ever you wanted. Yet most stuck to popular builds that were viewed as "needed".

    There's PVP gear so I must grind for it, I have no choice, there's raid gear I must grind for it, I have no choice. This skill line gives me this I must use it, I have no choice.

    All of these things are player derived musts, no one is forcing anyone to do these things except the players themselves.

    I agree, I guess I just find it ironic.

     

    I mean, on one hand, they almost might as well just make said class a pure tanking class, and not offer any other "less than desirable" roles for that particular AC. On the other hand, if that happened, people would bitch and moan how X class only offers one specific class role and there isn't enough flexibility. 

     

    The odd thing is, very few are going to roll Juggernaut for the purpose of DPSing. I just think it's strange and wanted to spark some discussion ;) 

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771

    Originally posted by Cammy

    Just curious what your guy's thoughts are.

    It happens with every new MMO. The game offers options for people to play multiple roles, but the core tanking classes still end up being tanks. I've read Juggernauts for example, has a DPS and a Tanking tree - but Im willing to bet majority who roll Juggernaut will be tanks and likely that'll be their expectation when doing group content.

     

    Agree/disagree?

     play what you want and don't worry about others.

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  • SwaneaSwanea Member UncommonPosts: 2,401

    It's an MMO. Of course random people will think other random people should be certain things.  No different then any game.

     

    That said, when playing with friends, it doesn't matter!

     

    I'm sure we will all be okay with that.

  • nomssnomss Member UncommonPosts: 1,468

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by Cammy

    Just curious what your guy's thoughts are.

    It happens with every new MMO. The game offers options for people to play multiple roles, but the core tanking classes still end up being tanks. I've read Juggernauts for example, has a DPS and a Tanking tree - but Im willing to bet majority who roll Juggernaut will be tanks and likely that'll be their expectation when doing group content.

     

    Agree/disagree?

    Of course, isn't this how it always goes with everything MMO? Players forcing artificial limitations on themselves and others has been common practice for a while now. Hell this kind of thing was the norm way back in SWG as well, a skill based game where you could be what ever you wanted. Yet most stuck to popular builds that were viewed as "needed".

    There's PVP gear so I must grind for it, I have no choice, there's raid gear I must grind for it, I have no choice. This skill line gives me this I must use it, I have no choice.

    All of these things are player derived musts, no one is forcing anyone to do these things except the players themselves.

    This is true, but I think you might have missed the question. Say the tank classes chooses to be DD build then this guy probably won't be able to tank. I think there will be fine lines; a tank build will not be able to compete against DD build.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by Cammy

     

    I agree, I guess I just find it ironic.

     

    I mean, on one hand, they almost might as well just make said class a pure tanking class, and not offer any other "less than desirable" roles for that particular AC. On the other hand, if that happened, people would bitch and moan how X class only offers one specific class role and there isn't enough flexibility. 

     

    The odd thing is, very few are going to roll Juggernaut for the purpose of DPSing. I just think it's strange and wanted to spark some discussion ;) 

    It's very ironic especially when the complaints start rolling in about being forced to do this or do that. These complaints are not aimed at the players around them , but the devs who made plenty of other options that are rarely if ever used. :)

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Endo13Endo13 Member Posts: 187

    Originally posted by Cammy

    Just curious what your guy's thoughts are.

    It happens with every new MMO. The game offers options for people to play multiple roles, but the core tanking classes still end up being tanks. I've read Juggernauts for example, has a DPS and a Tanking tree - but Im willing to bet majority who roll Juggernaut will be tanks and likely that'll be their expectation when doing group content.

     

    Agree/disagree?

    Well, yeah, of course it's going to play out like that. Any time you have WoW-style tanking very few people are going to want to tank. As a result, there's going to be immense pressure on anyone playing a tanking class to tank. Simple as that.

    The only way to change it is to use a different control mechanic than a threat table for tanking. See Guild Wars for a fun system that keeps plenty of tank players around.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by nomss

    This is true, but I think you might have missed the question. Say the tank classes chooses to be DD build then this guy probably won't be able to tank. I think there will be fine lines; a tank build will not be able to compete against DD build.

    That's true, I think I'm just on an anti-MMO-player binge right now:).

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • revy66revy66 Member Posts: 464

    Not necessarily, the Powertech which is also Empire can tank too, I assume pretty well with the appropriate skill tree. Btw I will be probably rolling Juggernaut DPS image

    Why would you assume all Juggernauts will be speccing tank? I guess a dps Juggernaut will be playing kinda like an Arms Warrior in WoW or generally a 2handed heavy hitter which is what I like to play.


  • Originally posted by Cammy

    Originally posted by Malickie


    Originally posted by Cammy

    Just curious what your guy's thoughts are.

    It happens with every new MMO. The game offers options for people to play multiple roles, but the core tanking classes still end up being tanks. I've read Juggernauts for example, has a DPS and a Tanking tree - but Im willing to bet majority who roll Juggernaut will be tanks and likely that'll be their expectation when doing group content.

     

    Agree/disagree?

    Of course, isn't this how it always goes with everything MMO? Players forcing artificial limitations on themselves and others has been common practice for a while now. Hell this kind of thing was the norm way back in SWG as well, a skill based game where you could be what ever you wanted. Yet most stuck to popular builds that were viewed as "needed".

    There's PVP gear so I must grind for it, I have no choice, there's raid gear I must grind for it, I have no choice. This skill line gives me this I must use it, I have no choice.

    All of these things are player derived musts, no one is forcing anyone to do these things except the players themselves.

    I agree, I guess I just find it ironic.

     

    I mean, on one hand, they almost might as well just make said class a pure tanking class, and not offer any other "less than desirable" roles for that particular AC. On the other hand, if that happened, people would bitch and moan how X class only offers one specific class role and there isn't enough flexibility. 

     

    The odd thing is, very few are going to roll Juggernaut for the purpose of DPSing. I just think it's strange and wanted to spark some discussion ;) 

    whats funny about that is, juggernuat used to be just a tank.  the dps tree was added because enough people(in their eyes atleast) were asking for an option to be able to dps with a single saber.


  • Originally posted by revy66

    Not necessarily, the Powertech which is also Empire can tank too, I assume pretty well with the appropriate skill tree. Btw I will be probably rolling Juggernaut DPS image

    inqusitor assassin has a tanking tree too

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by revy66

    Not necessarily, the Powertech which is also Empire can tank too, I assume pretty well with the appropriate skill tree. Btw I will be probably rolling Juggernaut DPS image

    Why would you assume all Juggernauts will be speccing tank? I guess a dps Juggernaut will be playing kinda like an Arms Warrior in WoW or generally a 2handed heavy hitter which is what I like to play.

    I might have read the OP wrong, but it seemed to me they were hinting at what the player expectation would be in raids and other group oriented endavors. To put it plainly, you don't roll how the mob wants you to roll, you get no part in their Reindeer games.

    Edit- I could be wrong about the OP's intention though.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DeserttFoxxDeserttFoxx Member UncommonPosts: 2,402

    There are no forced roles. If a sith juggernaught specs tank he can main tank, the same way if he specced dps he can be a high damage dps.

     

    That is why this game doesnt have dual specs, its because spec matters, the devs specifically stated they dont want any useless builds, there are no builds that dont work in both pve, and pvp. That is why a heavy defensive spec tank can take that spec and go pvp and still do well.

    Every class can fully fill the role their class can spec for, so if they have healing, or tanking they can be main healer or main tank. 

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  • CammyCammy Member Posts: 864

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by revy66

    Not necessarily, the Powertech which is also Empire can tank too, I assume pretty well with the appropriate skill tree. Btw I will be probably rolling Juggernaut DPS image

    Why would you assume all Juggernauts will be speccing tank? I guess a dps Juggernaut will be playing kinda like an Arms Warrior in WoW or generally a 2handed heavy hitter which is what I like to play.

    I might have read the OP wrong, but it seemed to me they were hinting at what the player expectation would be in raids and other group oriented endavors. To put it plainly, you don't roll how the mob wants you to roll, you get no part in their Reindeer games.

    Edit- I could be wrong about the OP's intention though.

     

    You are not wrong at all :) 

    I personally feel/believe DPS Juggernauts SHOULD be viable and people should be allowed to play what they want.... but as many others have said the pressure will be on those particular classes to tank, which is my opinion as well. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I feel it'll be an issue just like any other game. I really wish Bioware was the company who corrected this, I think it's been a problem in trinity based MMOs' for a really long time :( 

    I'd always welcome any compitent player into my group, regardless of spec choice :) 

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    The Devs have said that they are trying to make sure all AC's with a Tank or Healing tree can be used as a main tank. They obviously have to skill out with the dedicated Tank or Healing tree as much as possible. But all Tanks and Healers should be able to  be the main Tank or Healer.

     

    Here are the combos for Tank:

    Republic Tanks are

    Jedi Knight Guardian as a close range tank

    Jedi Consular Shadow as a close - mid range tank

    Trooper Vanguard as a ranged tank

    Sith Tanks are

    Sith Warrior Juggernaut as a close range tank

    Sith Inquisitor Assassin as a close - mid range tank

    Bounty Hunter Powertech as a close - mid range tank

     

    So it comes down to how these 6 AC's perform as tanks. If all of them can tank equally well in flaspoints and Operations. Then you will not be expected to be a tank in any of the AC's. If only one ends up as the "best" tank, then you will be expected to be the main tank. So it comes down to execution by the devs as well as perception by the player base.

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  • revy66revy66 Member Posts: 464

    Originally posted by Cammy

    Originally posted by Malickie


    Originally posted by revy66

    Not necessarily, the Powertech which is also Empire can tank too, I assume pretty well with the appropriate skill tree. Btw I will be probably rolling Juggernaut DPS image

    Why would you assume all Juggernauts will be speccing tank? I guess a dps Juggernaut will be playing kinda like an Arms Warrior in WoW or generally a 2handed heavy hitter which is what I like to play.

    I might have read the OP wrong, but it seemed to me they were hinting at what the player expectation would be in raids and other group oriented endavors. To put it plainly, you don't roll how the mob wants you to roll, you get no part in their Reindeer games.

    Edit- I could be wrong about the OP's intention though.

     

    You are not wrong at all :) 

    I personally feel/believe DPS Juggernauts SHOULD be viable and people should be allowed to play what they want.... but as many others have said the pressure will be on those particular classes to tank, which is my opinion as well. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I feel it'll be an issue just like any other game. I really wish Bioware was the company who corrected this, I think it's been a problem in trinity based MMOs' for a really long time :( 

    I'd always welcome any compitent player into my group, regardless of spec choice :) 

    Any other game? Strange, I played WoW for 3 years and was never asked to tank as a warrior. Sure it's super easy to be accepted in a dungeon or raid or whatever as a tank but it never influenced me to what I would roll.

    Not to mention there is an Imperial Agent class that can tank and a Sith Inquisitor class that can tank (assassin with Darkness skilltree) other than a Sith Warrior.

  • TheomastusTheomastus Member Posts: 35

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by revy66

    Not necessarily, the Powertech which is also Empire can tank too, I assume pretty well with the appropriate skill tree. Btw I will be probably rolling Juggernaut DPS image

    Why would you assume all Juggernauts will be speccing tank? I guess a dps Juggernaut will be playing kinda like an Arms Warrior in WoW or generally a 2handed heavy hitter which is what I like to play.

    I might have read the OP wrong, but it seemed to me they were hinting at what the player expectation would be in raids and other group oriented endavors. To put it plainly, you don't roll how the mob wants you to roll, you get no part in their Reindeer games.

    Edit- I could be wrong about the OP's intention though.

    Everyone's drawing a lot of conclusions from very scanty data here.

    We haven't seen full talent trees, endgame instances or PvP, very much info on how item scaling will work, etc.

    For one class to become the only real viable MT class in a faction, its going to have to have some really important advantages over any of the other available options-  and there is NO information on that.

    Further, if BW has classified an AC's role as DPS or Tank, we can only assume that they mean to have that AC viably fulfill both those roles if specced correctly.  That doesn't mean that there won't be a ton of SWs and JKs out there with a build that dosen't let them do either effectively, but that's the fault of the player, not the game design.  

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  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

     






    Originally posted by Cammy



    You are not wrong at all :) 

    I personally feel/believe DPS Juggernauts SHOULD be viable and people should be allowed to play what they want.... but as many others have said the pressure will be on those particular classes to tank, which is my opinion as well. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I feel it'll be an issue just like any other game. I really wish Bioware was the company who corrected this, I think it's been a problem in trinity based MMOs' for a really long time :( 

    I'd always welcome any compitent player into my group, regardless of spec choice :) 



     

    Hopefully this is the answer to that problem.

     




    Originally posted by Deserttfox

    There are no forced roles. If a sith juggernaught specs tank he can main tank, the same way if he specced dps he can be a high damage dps.

     

    That is why this game doesnt have dual specs, its because spec matters, the devs specifically stated they dont want any useless builds, there are no builds that dont work in both pve, and pvp. That is why a heavy defensive spec tank can take that spec and go pvp and still do well.

    Every class can fully fill the role their class can spec for, so if they have healing, or tanking they can be main healer or main tank.



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  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by revy66

    Any other game? Strange, I played WoW for 3 years and was never asked to tank as a warrior. Sure it's super easy to be accepted in a dungeon or raid or whatever as a tank but it never influenced me to what I would roll.

    Not to mention there is an Imperial Agent class that can tank and a Sith Inquisitor class that can tank (assassin with Darkness skilltree) other than a Sith Warrior.

    Consider yourself lucky, as I've seen plenty of this behavior in my time playing MMO's. Or maybe I'm just unlucky :).

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • TardcoreTardcore Member Posts: 2,325

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by Cammy

    Just curious what your guy's thoughts are.

    It happens with every new MMO. The game offers options for people to play multiple roles, but the core tanking classes still end up being tanks. I've read Juggernauts for example, has a DPS and a Tanking tree - but Im willing to bet majority who roll Juggernaut will be tanks and likely that'll be their expectation when doing group content.

     

    Agree/disagree?

    Of course, isn't this how it always goes with everything MMO? Players forcing artificial limitations on themselves and others has been common practice for a while now. Hell this kind of thing was the norm way back in SWG as well, a skill based game where you could be what ever you wanted. Yet most stuck to popular builds that were viewed as "needed".

    There's PVP gear so I must grind for it, I have no choice, there's raid gear I must grind for it, I have no choice. This skill line gives me this I must use it, I have no choice.

    All of these things are player derived musts, no one is forcing anyone to do these things except the players themselves.

    I can see your point, and I agree it is a good one, but I disagree that these issues fall directly on the shoulders of the players. If grindng for PVP and PVE gear is the only active and meaningful thing game developers give you to do, then they share a good portion of the blame for encouraging this behavior.

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  • whilanwhilan Member UncommonPosts: 3,472

    I think at least the way the game is setup and with the consistant unknown of what type a person is going to be.

    That people will simply ask for a tank and accept someone who has their class specced as a tank.  If BW does it right. then this could be any of the classes that can tank thus people won't say looking for a Jug for tank. They will simply say looking for someone to tank X.

    As time goes on, people tend to make a list of players who are good at tanking, who are good at healing, who are good at proper DPSing.  THen just call on those people.

    Now if Bioware just makes X class simply better at tanking then everyone else but worse at everything else then other classes then that class will become the definiative tank class (because tanking is the only good they are good at and happen to be better then everyone else) but this is more of a balancing issue with the specs then by actual design.

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  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183



    Originally posted by Tardcore

    I can see your point, and I agree it is a good one, but I disagree that these issues fall directly on the shoulders of the players. If grindng for PVP and PVE gear is the only active and meaningful thing game developers give you to do, then they share a good portion of the blame for encouraging this behavior.

    A very good point which I have no rebuttal for. Maybe I should have singled a certain type of player out in my post. I was too broad, making it sound like all players are like this. They most definitely are not all like that. But you're right some games do make that their meat and potatoes, which as a result ends up shoehorning people down such a path.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433

    That's hard to say. As Juggernauts can also be DPS and there are no dual specs at this point.

    You shouldn't write off Assassin / Shadow tanks, RIFT's rogue tanks are perfectly feasible after all.

    And Troopers / BH's , while they will likely be less played than the force users initially, have the same heavy armor to protect them as the Juggernaut / Guardian have...

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  • MorbidCurioMorbidCurio Member Posts: 127

    The only real response to this thread is one that applies to all classes:

     

    Don't play a class that can perform multiple roles if you aren't prepared to perform each of those roles.

    What does this mean?

     

    Juggernaut can dps or tank. Don't play a Juggernaut if you aren't prepared to tank at some point.

    Inquisitors can heal or dps. I plan on going Inquis myself. My preference is going to be to melt faces with lightning, but I am prepared to heal as the case may call for.

     

    This philosophy is purely psychological. You should find gear for whatever your main role is, but if you have the opportunity to get a free piece of gear for the other role you should take it. This means you are fully embracing your class, which is a good thing.

    If someone asks you to tank you can tell them, 'Sure, I can, but I am not as well equipped for that'

    Nobody has the right to rage about what you choose as your primary role. It is pretty silly to play a class that can perform two different roles and completely ignore one of them. Especially if one is a tank. Tanking in most games is usually pretty fun if you've got a good group. You set the pace and basically do whatever you want as long as you are the one taking the majority of the damage.

  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368

    We will no doubt have our number crunchers who will determine this (at least on a paper).

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