When I read this original post, I was like...what is this guy thinking?
It is called rational thinking.
Building a house or opening a shop only means that already implemented content is used. It does not create content.
Creating content would be ie. adding a functionality - being able built upper floors and a fence around your house or extend the functionality of your shop to buy goods.
In a same way all my other points are valid.
All I'll say is, I don't think that a player should have to be able to create the wire mesh, do the paint and texturing, animations and command responses for an object for it to be "player created", dynamic sandbox content. And it seems like there are parts of your argument that imply that.
For me, almost all pre-cu crafted items in SWG qualify as sandbox, player created content. Resources used and their properties determined the created item's properties in most cases. A characters skill and a player's patience determined a blueprint's overall effectiveness.
There were restrictions, of course. You couldn't drop your house on top of Mos Eisley Spaceport, but there was plenty for me to consider the game a sandbox.
I am confused. Where is this player contents in Elder Scrolls oblivion, if that's a sandbox as people put it?*
There's a utility that allows you to make your own unique items, as the Fallout 3+ series does. Also, they allow you to go anywhere, and challenge in that area is based on your characters ability at the time.
And for the record, I don't consider the Morrowind/fallout games to be sandbox. Others do.
Sandboxes have no pre-arranged script. Just a world, and the tools to improve it, nothing more, nothing less. Sandboxes are like life, only smaller, hince why they are called SANDBOXES!
Themeparks are scripted, laid out and hold your hand through them, from level 1 to level OVER 9000!!!! ((sorry couldnt help myself.))
The current definition of a Themepark is where you are herded along a path toward a finish line from character creation to level cap with very little deviation from this path. Whether it be though questing or through 'CON' ing of a mob that you can kill if it matches your level range. Also Themeparks have a tendency to only introduce content for those players at the level cap. Finally the last way to tell if its a themepark is to have an overly different end game then what the player experienced on his journey up the level ladder. Examples are Rift and WoW. EQ was a very form of a Thempark but with a lot less 'ground rules' put in place to limit a players freedom.
Sandbox is where you are free to play the game in any direction whether it be though grinding mobs, grouping, running dungeons, exploration off a beaten path, crafting, diplomacy, PvP or any combination of what a developer puts in as content. The thing is with a sandbox you are not limited as much by your gear and skill as you are by your tactics and wit. In a sandbox the vast majority of the time once a level cap is reached there is no clear distinction in how a player plays the game from the start till the end. Sandbox games are usually more grindy but not ina bad way like Lineage or Aion but ina way that fosters a sense of accomplishment as in EVE or Asherons Call.
Asherons Call is a Sandbox that has been often overlooked in this discussion because it gives players freedom to level as they see fit and very little meaning is associated with player levels. Another key difference is that Asheron's Call does not use character level as the major determinant in the outcome of a combat. Level simply determines what skills are available, and it is the skills and equipment of players and creatures that determine the outcome. Whereas in many games a player will be able to move a cursor over an opponent and instantly know from their level whether they will be successful in combat, in Asheron's Call a character might be able to defeat much higher level foes or lose to much lower level ones, again depending upon one's skill choices and equipment. As with the absence of specific level zones, this creates a higher degree of unpredicatability than in most theme park games.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Honestly the poeple that try to define those genres around feature list are just banging their head hard. Its not the way you define anything in life, you just won't ever be able to define anything like this. Try to define an apple in making a list of taste, color, shape and whetever else, you a have a free trip to the fail.
If you want to teach a child that never eat an apple what an apple is, you will just give him few of those and have him eat them.
We all know for those having playing a large amount of both genre, we all know what they are about. They are about a designing attitudes, period. These attitudes can lead to a bunch of features, but whatver the list of features you will have at the end, you will know if the game lean to sandbox or themepark design.
We all know Uo, Eve, Fallout3, Oblivion have sandbox design. We all know EQ, WOW, or whatever else have themepark design. And this is not defined by a feature list but a game design. Game deisgn will become obvious once you play those game, just like the taste of an apple will be obvious once you eat the fruit.
Honestly the poeple that try to define those genres around feature list are just banging their head hard. Its not the way you define anything in life, you just won't ever be able to define anything like this. Try to define an apple in making a list of taste, color, shape and whetever else, you a have a free trip to the fail.
If you want to teach a child that never eat an apple what an apple is, you will just give him few of those and have him eat them.
We all know for those having playing a large amount of both genre, we all know what they are about. They are about a designing attitudes, period. These attitudes can lead to a bunch of features, but whatver the list of features you will have at the end, you will know if the game lean to sandbox or themepark design.
We all know Uo, Eve, Fallout3, Oblivion have sandbox design. We all know EQ, WOW, or whatever else have themepark design. And this is not defined by a feature list but a game design. Game deisgn will become obvious once you play those game, just like the taste of an apple will be obvious once you eat the fruit.
I think that a feature list is exactly how we define a great many, most things in life.
Definition of an apple: The round fruit of a tree of the rose family, which typically has thin red or green skin and crisp flesh.
a. A deciduous Eurasian tree (Malus pumila) having alternate simple leaves and white or pink flowers.
b. The firm, edible, usually rounded fruit of this tree.
2.
a. Any of several other plants, especially those with fruits suggestive of the apple, such as the crab apple or custard apple.
b. The fruit of any of these plants.
: the fleshy usually rounded red, yellow, or green edible pome fruit of a usually cultivated tree (genus Malus) of the rose family
All features characteristic of an apple.
Most of terms used in biology, chemistry, geography and most other sciences that we use to define our world are based on feature list. When the features of one item differ significantly from another they are given a new name, when they differ in minor features they are given a pre/suffix or addition to their current name.
We differentiate an african lion from a mountain lion by the features - mane, size...
It's pretty common throughout most things.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Honestly the poeple that try to define those genres around feature list are just banging their head hard. Its not the way you define anything in life, you just won't ever be able to define anything like this. Try to define an apple in making a list of taste, color, shape and whetever else, you a have a free trip to the fail.
If you want to teach a child that never eat an apple what an apple is, you will just give him few of those and have him eat them.
We all know for those having playing a large amount of both genre, we all know what they are about. They are about a designing attitudes, period. These attitudes can lead to a bunch of features, but whatver the list of features you will have at the end, you will know if the game lean to sandbox or themepark design.
We all know Uo, Eve, Fallout3, Oblivion have sandbox design. We all know EQ, WOW, or whatever else have themepark design. And this is not defined by a feature list but a game design. Game deisgn will become obvious once you play those game, just like the taste of an apple will be obvious once you eat the fruit.
I think that a feature list is exactly how we define a great many, most things in life.
Definition of an apple: The round fruit of a tree of the rose family, which typically has thin red or green skin and crisp flesh.
a. A deciduous Eurasian tree (Malus pumila) having alternate simple leaves and white or pink flowers.
b. The firm, edible, usually rounded fruit of this tree.
2.
a. Any of several other plants, especially those with fruits suggestive of the apple, such as the crab apple or custard apple.
b. The fruit of any of these plants.
: the fleshy usually rounded red, yellow, or green edible pome fruit of a usually cultivated tree (genus Malus) of the rose family
All features characteristic of an apple.
Most of terms used in biology, chemistry, geography and most other sciences that we use to define our world are based on feature list. When the features of one item differ significantly from another they are given a new name, when they differ in minor features they are given a pre/suffix or addition to their current name.
We differentiate an african lion from a mountain lion by the features - mane, size...
It's pretty common throughout most things.
Venge
You missed his point because you are comparing concrete objects to entertainment.
He is saying that the game design - what the MMO is at its core - is what determines whether it is sandbox focused or themepark focused. This is because the feature issue isn't a binary factor to entertainment but a factor of degrees. There are some laughs in a horror movies but that doesn't automatically amke it a comedy. there can be gore in a comedy and that doesn't make it a slasher flick.
Again, a game is called sandbox or themepark not because they are solely any one aspect but because of the emphasis the design places on an aspect. For example, by almost any feature checklist system, one could easily call most MMOs a themepark, and that includes MMOs like Ultima Online and EVE Online.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No I got his point, however I disagree with it. Game design is really no more than your philosophy and is explained by what... a feature list. Your features, the things you can do in the game is the tangible verification of your philosophy, therefore we can and should define them by the feature lists.
An FPS is differentiated by an RPG (yes they can merge the two, lets not get into that) by the features. A sandbox is defined and seperated from a themepark by the things you can do in the game which is again the tangible verification or shows what their philosophy is.
The developers may say whatever they want about their philosophy but it is the features that they implement that determine if they are true to their philosophy.
As many has stated sandbox is about choice - therefore its features need to present more options than themepark
or
Sandbox is about cultivating and maintaining a stable population and economy. Their features need to reflect that.
The features is absolutely how you define something.
The confusion comes because we all have a different feature list of what defines it.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
No I got his point, however I disagree with it. Game design is really no more than your philosophy and is explained by what... a feature list. Your features, the things you can do in the game is the tangible verification of your philosophy,
no, features do not really matter.
quests are a feature in both games, but the role of questing and the way they are implemented is fully different.
crafting is implemented in both. but the role of the crafting in a player driven economy is fully different.
we could easily describe for every feature on your list, how an ideal sandbox does it different, than a ideal theme-park. so the difference are design principles and paradigms and not features
No I got his point, however I disagree with it. Game design is really no more than your philosophy and is explained by what... a feature list. Your features, the things you can do in the game is the tangible verification of your philosophy,
no, features do not really matter.
quests are a feature in both games, but the role of questing and the way they are implemented is fully different.
crafting is implemented in both. but the role of the crafting in a player driven economy is fully different.
we could easily describe for every feature on your list, how an ideal sandbox does it different, than a ideal theme-park. so the difference are design principles and paradigms and not features
Once again I disagree. The features are the implementation of the game design.
Crafting is in both, but the depth of crafting is what seperates them. So a fully player dependant economogy dependant on crafting is a feature and fully different from crafting say in WoW.
The features are what ultimately make the sandbox.
The devs can say they want a fully customizable character but if they dont' put the feature that lets the player do that, it is less of a sandbox. The devs can say want a fully player driven economy but if they don't put the features in that reinforce that, it is less of a sandbox. The devs can say they want a world that the player can impact either through physical structures or territory conflict but if they don't put the features in that lets the player do that than it is less of a sandbox.
All of those are features than need to be implemented and reflect the actual game design and philosophy. I really don't care what the developers say a game is or is not, the truth about what a game actually is is in what features they implement.
Venge
edit - thats why I always laugh when people say GW is not an MMO because the developers say it isn't. That doesn't wash, a game is defined by the features. If it has everything that makes an MMO, than it's an MMO regardless of what the devs say. You can say GW is or is not an MMO but base it on the game itself, not what someone else called it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The features are what ultimately make the sandbox.
Why after more than 10 pages of debate, the feature list isn't set for sandbox and themepark already? Honestly reread those 10 pages, and you will see exactly the opposite, every single feature can be in both sandbox and themepark games equally.
Fully customizable character is in Rift too you know, Rift is not a sandbox; to take your exemple.
So what make that feature sandboxy in some game and not sandboxy in other? Maybe is it because in Rift your so called customization will end up into a flexible trinity setting, where in EVE or Uo it will end up with numerous and unique classes for each of those games?
So once more one designed their feature in a way, other in an other way.
Rift is more of a sandbox than it would be without that fully customizable feature.
A feature is not one set in stone item. Crafting is not just one monolothic feature. There are some games that have very limited crafting which is a different feature than a fully customizable build/craft anything fully player dependant crafting. Economy in some games is very simple, which is a very different feature than a fully player dependant economy that does't have NPCs.
These 10 pages have come to really only one conclusions: Bladestroms quote that a sandbox tries to cultivate and maintain an interdependant population and economy while a themepark is about activities and accessability.
The only way to do either of those things is with the features that are present. There is no other way. The feature list is how you actually accomplish the goal of cultivating and maintaining that interdependant population.
The philosophy may be the idea but the features are the implementation of that idea.
A themepark will not have all the features of a sandbox, but it may have similar features.
Once again both WoW and Istaria have crafting, but they are very different features in both games.
"So once more one designed their feature in a way, other in an other way."
In effect making different features.
Venge
edit - in another thread I called for the differences between Eve and Wow and stated that both have territory controlled areas. One person pointed out that Eve has that basically anywhere, whereas Wow in only certain areas. That is a very very significant difference. The feature is not player controlled areas now. Now the feature that eve is basically unlimited player controlled areas whereas WoW is very very limited and specific goal oriented player controlled areas. Not really the same feature. One promotes the sandbox, one promotes a specific activity (themepark)
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
There's a utility that allows you to make your own unique items, as the Fallout 3+ series does. Also, they allow you to go anywhere, and challenge in that area is based on your characters ability at the time.
And for the record, I don't consider the Morrowind/fallout games to be sandbox. Others do.
The answer to the OP is simple.
Sandboxes have no pre-arranged script. Just a world, and the tools to improve it, nothing more, nothing less. Sandboxes are like life, only smaller, hince why they are called SANDBOXES!
Themeparks are scripted, laid out and hold your hand through them, from level 1 to level OVER 9000!!!! ((sorry couldnt help myself.))
So much crap, so little quality.
The current definition of a Themepark is where you are herded along a path toward a finish line from character creation to level cap with very little deviation from this path. Whether it be though questing or through 'CON' ing of a mob that you can kill if it matches your level range. Also Themeparks have a tendency to only introduce content for those players at the level cap. Finally the last way to tell if its a themepark is to have an overly different end game then what the player experienced on his journey up the level ladder. Examples are Rift and WoW. EQ was a very form of a Thempark but with a lot less 'ground rules' put in place to limit a players freedom.
Sandbox is where you are free to play the game in any direction whether it be though grinding mobs, grouping, running dungeons, exploration off a beaten path, crafting, diplomacy, PvP or any combination of what a developer puts in as content. The thing is with a sandbox you are not limited as much by your gear and skill as you are by your tactics and wit. In a sandbox the vast majority of the time once a level cap is reached there is no clear distinction in how a player plays the game from the start till the end. Sandbox games are usually more grindy but not ina bad way like Lineage or Aion but ina way that fosters a sense of accomplishment as in EVE or Asherons Call.
Asherons Call is a Sandbox that has been often overlooked in this discussion because it gives players freedom to level as they see fit and very little meaning is associated with player levels. Another key difference is that Asheron's Call does not use character level as the major determinant in the outcome of a combat. Level simply determines what skills are available, and it is the skills and equipment of players and creatures that determine the outcome. Whereas in many games a player will be able to move a cursor over an opponent and instantly know from their level whether they will be successful in combat, in Asheron's Call a character might be able to defeat much higher level foes or lose to much lower level ones, again depending upon one's skill choices and equipment. As with the absence of specific level zones, this creates a higher degree of unpredicatability than in most theme park games.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Honestly the poeple that try to define those genres around feature list are just banging their head hard. Its not the way you define anything in life, you just won't ever be able to define anything like this. Try to define an apple in making a list of taste, color, shape and whetever else, you a have a free trip to the fail.
If you want to teach a child that never eat an apple what an apple is, you will just give him few of those and have him eat them.
We all know for those having playing a large amount of both genre, we all know what they are about. They are about a designing attitudes, period. These attitudes can lead to a bunch of features, but whatver the list of features you will have at the end, you will know if the game lean to sandbox or themepark design.
We all know Uo, Eve, Fallout3, Oblivion have sandbox design. We all know EQ, WOW, or whatever else have themepark design. And this is not defined by a feature list but a game design. Game deisgn will become obvious once you play those game, just like the taste of an apple will be obvious once you eat the fruit.
I think that a feature list is exactly how we define a great many, most things in life.
Definition of an apple: The round fruit of a tree of the rose family, which typically has thin red or green skin and crisp flesh.
a. A deciduous Eurasian tree (Malus pumila) having alternate simple leaves and white or pink flowers.
b. The firm, edible, usually rounded fruit of this tree.
2.
a. Any of several other plants, especially those with fruits suggestive of the apple, such as the crab apple or custard apple.
b. The fruit of any of these plants.
: the fleshy usually rounded red, yellow, or green edible pome fruit of a usually cultivated tree (genus Malus) of the rose family
All features characteristic of an apple.
Most of terms used in biology, chemistry, geography and most other sciences that we use to define our world are based on feature list. When the features of one item differ significantly from another they are given a new name, when they differ in minor features they are given a pre/suffix or addition to their current name.
We differentiate an african lion from a mountain lion by the features - mane, size...
It's pretty common throughout most things.
Venge
You missed his point because you are comparing concrete objects to entertainment.
He is saying that the game design - what the MMO is at its core - is what determines whether it is sandbox focused or themepark focused. This is because the feature issue isn't a binary factor to entertainment but a factor of degrees. There are some laughs in a horror movies but that doesn't automatically amke it a comedy. there can be gore in a comedy and that doesn't make it a slasher flick.
Again, a game is called sandbox or themepark not because they are solely any one aspect but because of the emphasis the design places on an aspect. For example, by almost any feature checklist system, one could easily call most MMOs a themepark, and that includes MMOs like Ultima Online and EVE Online.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No I got his point, however I disagree with it. Game design is really no more than your philosophy and is explained by what... a feature list. Your features, the things you can do in the game is the tangible verification of your philosophy, therefore we can and should define them by the feature lists.
An FPS is differentiated by an RPG (yes they can merge the two, lets not get into that) by the features. A sandbox is defined and seperated from a themepark by the things you can do in the game which is again the tangible verification or shows what their philosophy is.
The developers may say whatever they want about their philosophy but it is the features that they implement that determine if they are true to their philosophy.
As many has stated sandbox is about choice - therefore its features need to present more options than themepark
or
Sandbox is about cultivating and maintaining a stable population and economy. Their features need to reflect that.
The features is absolutely how you define something.
The confusion comes because we all have a different feature list of what defines it.
Venge
no, features do not really matter.
quests are a feature in both games, but the role of questing and the way they are implemented is fully different.
crafting is implemented in both. but the role of the crafting in a player driven economy is fully different.
we could easily describe for every feature on your list, how an ideal sandbox does it different, than a ideal theme-park. so the difference are design principles and paradigms and not features
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
Once again I disagree. The features are the implementation of the game design.
Crafting is in both, but the depth of crafting is what seperates them. So a fully player dependant economogy dependant on crafting is a feature and fully different from crafting say in WoW.
The features are what ultimately make the sandbox.
The devs can say they want a fully customizable character but if they dont' put the feature that lets the player do that, it is less of a sandbox. The devs can say want a fully player driven economy but if they don't put the features in that reinforce that, it is less of a sandbox. The devs can say they want a world that the player can impact either through physical structures or territory conflict but if they don't put the features in that lets the player do that than it is less of a sandbox.
All of those are features than need to be implemented and reflect the actual game design and philosophy. I really don't care what the developers say a game is or is not, the truth about what a game actually is is in what features they implement.
Venge
edit - thats why I always laugh when people say GW is not an MMO because the developers say it isn't. That doesn't wash, a game is defined by the features. If it has everything that makes an MMO, than it's an MMO regardless of what the devs say. You can say GW is or is not an MMO but base it on the game itself, not what someone else called it.
Why after more than 10 pages of debate, the feature list isn't set for sandbox and themepark already? Honestly reread those 10 pages, and you will see exactly the opposite, every single feature can be in both sandbox and themepark games equally.
Fully customizable character is in Rift too you know, Rift is not a sandbox; to take your exemple.
So what make that feature sandboxy in some game and not sandboxy in other? Maybe is it because in Rift your so called customization will end up into a flexible trinity setting, where in EVE or Uo it will end up with numerous and unique classes for each of those games?
So once more one designed their feature in a way, other in an other way.
Rift is more of a sandbox than it would be without that fully customizable feature.
A feature is not one set in stone item. Crafting is not just one monolothic feature. There are some games that have very limited crafting which is a different feature than a fully customizable build/craft anything fully player dependant crafting. Economy in some games is very simple, which is a very different feature than a fully player dependant economy that does't have NPCs.
These 10 pages have come to really only one conclusions: Bladestroms quote that a sandbox tries to cultivate and maintain an interdependant population and economy while a themepark is about activities and accessability.
The only way to do either of those things is with the features that are present. There is no other way. The feature list is how you actually accomplish the goal of cultivating and maintaining that interdependant population.
The philosophy may be the idea but the features are the implementation of that idea.
A themepark will not have all the features of a sandbox, but it may have similar features.
Once again both WoW and Istaria have crafting, but they are very different features in both games.
"So once more one designed their feature in a way, other in an other way."
In effect making different features.
Venge
edit - in another thread I called for the differences between Eve and Wow and stated that both have territory controlled areas. One person pointed out that Eve has that basically anywhere, whereas Wow in only certain areas. That is a very very significant difference. The feature is not player controlled areas now. Now the feature that eve is basically unlimited player controlled areas whereas WoW is very very limited and specific goal oriented player controlled areas. Not really the same feature. One promotes the sandbox, one promotes a specific activity (themepark)