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[Poll] Do you like the aesthetics of the Engineer in GW2?
Dream_Chaser
Member Posts: 1,043
This is a poll that needs to happen, I think, just so ArenaNet can see the results. (And in an environment where the results can't be modified to the desires of anyone, not even me.) Now, I've been talking with friends and we feel that really pretty much everything the charr and the Engineer profession are doing can be easily explained, that's what I'm going to devote this post to before asking the question.
Mines
Beeping - The 'beeping' could be explained by a clockwork system wherein you have a pair of mechanical bellows that fill up a bag with air which is expelled into a small pipe that behaves like a flute or whistle, thus creating a sound that goes off like clockwork.
Flashing Light - This actually is a small electrical spark that occurs on a timed basis (determined by clockwork) behind a rounded coloured lens, the lens amplifies the light given off by the spark enough to be seen from a distance. And yes, the charr have actually have a rudimentary understanding of electricity, as demonstrated by...
Remote Detonatio - This is the most tricky, but apparently the charr have figured out the rudimentary elements of signals and electricity, something that we figured out in 1898. This shouldn't be so hard to believe considering their other advancements (something I'll touch on later). They haven't figured out complex circuitry yet, but neither had NIkola Tesla when he put together his remote controlled boat. It's worth reading up on this to understand how it works, since only the most basic sort of signal broadcast and reception would be required for a remote detonator.
Turrets
An 'automated' turret could simply be a matter of having the turret on a pivot controlled by clockwork where every so many degrees it's triggered to 'fire.' This is something that's set by the Engineer when they place the turret, they have to wind it up after all so adjusting a dial real quick isn't going to add a lot to that, so the turret then starts moving in increments across an angle specified by the engineer (say, if the foes are right in front of it, the amount of movement could be back and forth around 45 degrees, but if the foes are more spread out it could go up to 120). Every time the turret stops, it fires.
Now the turret doesn't know whether it's firing at anything, it just fires regardless. This fits what we saw in the turret video, there's no saying that the turret has to be auto-targeting at all. Whilst it might to some degree, this might simply be a case of game mechanics > lore. But that would be enough to explain how the turret works lore-wise.
It's worth keeping in mind that we had tripod-mounted gatling guns in the 19th century, with how proficient the charr are with clockwork technology, would a clockwork turret that rotates on a set pivot via clockwork be hard to accept?
Grenades
The grenades actually look like Model 24 grenades. Now we're talking about the charr here, a race who're smart enough to put together tanks and attack buggies which are clearly powered by internal combusion engines (which they clearly are, as you'll see if you watch the Black Citadel video). If they can do that then is it so hard to believe that in 250 years they haven't put together a derivative of the Model 24 grenade? Read up on it on Wikipedia, it was around at the same time the first tanks were, and it's a relatively simple device.
My Thoughts
The charr have advanced more than people want to admit, but if you look at our own advancements between the 17th and 20th century, and take into account Luxon cannons and the existence of black powder, then it's not difficult to believe that the charr, with a constant drive towards militaristic development, made the developments that they did in 250 years. In fact, I'm surprised that the Engineer and the Black Citadel aren't more advanced than they are, when by all rights they should be, and I wouldn't be surprsied if the Black Citadel has more surprises for us in store.
It's all really explained within the game itself and the lore of the charr - their Iron Legion were already developing stuff before the Flame Legion used the titans to enslave them, once they threw off the shackles of the Flame Legion, they had to figure out ways to maintain their militaristic culture without using magic. The Iron Legion was already working on this stuff, and they cross-referenced their notes vs some Luxon cannons they'd gotten their hands on, quantities of black powder, and dwarven forging tools. From there they concentrated solely on technological advancement without elements like capitalism to hold them back.
If you look at our own history, our greatest advancements were made at wartime, and the charr are always in wartime, because they still haven't dealt with all the threats to their very way of life, yet. They've had 250 years of militaristically driven advancements, and they're more focused than we were, they've just taken a slightly different approach to technology. Sure, it might mean that circuitry, computers, and even atom bombs aren't that far away for the charr, but a world can't stay grounded in the past forever! People, cultures, and sciences evolve.
And even when they do acquire more advanced technology, it's still going to have that bizarre charr slant on it which doesn't at all match our world, thus becoming more science-fantasy than sci-fi. Here's one bit of concept art named Charr Chopper. That's something that they might even be prototyping right now, something that down the line, in future expansion packs, we might actually see. And wouldn't that be awesome? ArenaNet aren't allowing themselves to be constrained by old, boring, dull, and frankly anally retentive takes on fatnasy. So why should we?
Preface to the Question
The charr have clearly advanced over 250 years, and now that there's an alliance, they're teaching people to specialise in the ways of the Engineer. They've clearly advanced a lot and they have a factory city with which they can produce the tools and weapons that their forces would need. No, clockpunk isn't everywhere but that's because A) not all the races are interested in technology, most would probably spurn it like the charr spurn magic, and 
because the races that would be okay with clockpunk and are being taught how to use it still haven't built their factories up yet.
The treaty is at a point where it's old enough to have the charr share out their produced goods with their allies, but not so much that they'll have had time to teach masses of people how to use clockpunk, or have had the time to bring the other cities up to clockpunk standard. They've clearly gone out of their way to help with some development, because the humans have some clearly charr (large, black, and imposing) clockpunk tech handling their agrarian systems, not to mention that it's been confirmed that the human printing press and one-man band are based on charr clockpunk too.
So the clockpunk stuff is spreading, but it's still too new to be everywhere. The humans, sylvari, and norn won't have factories beyond their standard smithies, and the asura are purely magic-based (see my signature), so what factories they have will be magically inclined and will need to be retrofitted to take advantage of charr technology, but even then the asura are so arrogant and egostistical that they'd likely turn their noses up to something they believe to be inferior. (And you can bet that the asura do think of charr non-magic tech as inferior.)
However, players are considered 'exceptional people' in the world, they're going to go to the Black Citadel and train with the best charr Engineers there, and they're going to pick up the tools of the trade (freely offered to all their allies), and they're going to get out there and start using that clockpunk goodness to fend off the threats to their people. Consider: The sylvari are naturally curious anyway, some humans are really against divine magic (see: Dougal), and the norn would see an effective weapon and would be all over it just because of that.
I could see sylvari and norn coming to the Black Citadel en masse, especially since the norn are already on very good terms with the charr anyway (less so with everyone else), humans who're disillusioned in the gods would come along eventually, but they'd be lesser in number, and even one or two asura would be able to swallow their pride enough to be curious. So I expect to see loads of charr Enigneer NPCs, a good number of norns, followed by sylvari, with less humans, and perhaps no asura Engineers (since it would take a rare asura indeed to be able to swallow their pride enough to turn their backs on the magicks of their own people in favour of technology designed by someone else).
Consider though that only recently have the charr started sharing out their technology as part of an alliance - but now they do so freely. Before that they would share it with any race, but only those who had proved their worth to the charr. Even before the treaty with the humans, even humans were allowed inside the Black Citadel so long as they had worth. So people would've seen the combat Engineer in action, and eventually, with the alliance in place, people would've wanted to take up this role.
We can't really compare this to the real world, because we haven't had any race that's developed in quite the way the charr have, but if we did then we could simply compare it with the advancements of the Europeans versus more tribal people like the Native Americans. Development and advancement don't happen in a synchronised way the world over, not even in our world, so without the charr being completely open with their technology, the other races would've been left behind in regards to technology because they're relying on magic instead. Why even bother to steal charr tech when you believe in magic and you can use magic to accomplish the same things for you? That was the belief up until the charr started openly sharing their technology and people saw how efficient it was for themselves first hand (hence the humans going from having Elementalists watering their crops to having charr clockpunk tech doing it for them).
The Question
Considering that Engineer is a profession that anyone will be able to choose, do you have any problems with its aesthetics considering all of the above? What I want to prove with this exercise is that besides a hardcore minority who either want to see the Engineer dead, or the looks of the Engineer dead, the vast majority are okay with the Engineer and actually like it. So that's what this poll is about. If you have any issues specifically with the aesthetics of the Engineer, share them here so that people can weigh in on them.
Comments
I saw this video cast on Gamebreaker.tv and it talks about mmos in general. They had a segment on the engineer in GW2 and one of the guests hosts talked about how some of the community didn't receive the class very well, mostly because of the aesthetics. The other hosts (4 all together) just thought that was nuts. The vast majority of gamers don't care one way or another on how a class fits, they just play the game. I just find it an interesting contrast between those fans who look at every single detail of the game they are covering and the rest of the gaming population.
I'm just stoked that ArenaNet are keeping their promise of professions with no full stops: I mean look at the Engineer with: Turrets, mines, grenades, Elixir gun, kit packs, tool belts, web gun, glue gun, flame-thrower, and more.
As for the aesthetics, let the artists run riot? Eg bleeping mines maybe is just a requisite "pavlov" for the signalling "oh sh*!" in combat? The turrets remind of the wacky inventions of flying machines in their design: Tech at it's inception, a jumble of principles in the design that jostle with the mechanical form in a "wth is that thing?" It's good to see ArenaNet pushing expectations. Also the rusty mechanical noices will probably go with the aesthetic and be very visual in combat with the engineer compared to other professions looks/sounds. So functionally aesthetics are sound enough too, imo. Sure anyone can look at it or any other fantasy and think that is "just naf" but if it fits in several ways, is high quality it probably will turn out just fine.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I've had a similar discussion with a few guildmates about this. The argument that modern-looking technology doesn't fit a fantasy game because "that wouldn't be realistic" seems very contrived, considering all the other non-realistic elements like magic in the game. How come players can easily suspend disbelief for the one but not the other?
In my opinion, any effort to rationalize the existence of things like turrets or grenades or remote controls is unneccessary.
Why do those things exist? Because it makes the game better! That is the only answer that matters. If you need a lore reason, make one up! That's what the developers do, anyway.
Dream Chaser, while I appreciate the effort that when into this, I think it might have been better to simply link to the skill videos or something. That wall of text crit me for max damage.
My answer, though. Emphatically YES. It's been 250 years, for Grenth's sake! You have two races that are all about innovation. If we didn't have more advanced technology, and more advanced magic, like turrets or portals-in-a-pocket, then I would actually be very concerned. What have my clever asura and indomitable charr been doing all this time? Sitting on their hands waiting for the humans do outdo them, or the norn to figure out how to smash a giant tooth? I don't think so!
Edit:
I just noticed your signature. Wow, that must have gotten you worked up pretty good.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Honestly i think i could proove you wrong in pretty much all your aspect with data showing powder was in before christ, fire works are also older than the bible, automated crossbow fire was in also around christ if not before and could have clearly been translated to powder guns if people of that time minded about weapon evolution, but they clearly didn't care historically for many reasons, alchemy was a medieval activity, and so on and so on.
I honestly don't think you are proving anything but the fact you dislike that aspect of the game. I think it will be fun. Uo also had achemy with guys throwing explo pot to pvp and it was fun and well set. I don't think it will be that different in GW2, in fact guns seam to be everywhere so i don't really see the problem.
You mean mechanics... aesthetics is how they look & animate.
Secondly, you go to talk on about the lore of the engineer and then ask if it's believable? When ArenaNet description has no flaws. So who actually is having a hard time understanding the lore of the Engineer..?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Warning: large amounts of sarcasm and hyperbole incoming. Please do not take too seriously.
In my holy crusade against the Engineer I've travelled far and wide to expose the blasphemies this class is inflicting upon our genre.
Lately I've come across something even more insidious then ever expected. Something more vile then even the lasermines and the Charr batmobiles.
For years serious gamers everywhere have been plagued by the irrational behaviour known only as..... bunnyhopping. But in GW2 it will be even worse:
*start Skyrim music*
I should have acted.
It's already here.
The first GW2 press releases told of it's return.
It's absence in GW was merely a delay.
For the time after GWEN released.
When the sons of ANet would build their new game.
But noone wanted to believe.
Believe it even existed.
And when the truth finally dawns, it dawns in bunnies.
But there's one they fear.
In their tongue he is rockethopper.
Engineer!
*end Skyrim music*
That's right. Something even more despicable then the bunnyhopper. Dear friends, with regret, I must introduce you to the jump shot skill. Not only will ANet inflict upon us the sight of Asura Warriors rapidly bouncing around the battlefield. There will be Engineers flying all over the place.... rockethopping around and destroying the immersion of all those around him.
And granted, when the first Engineer lands in front of me and I unleash all my pent-up Engineer hate, I will have a short Morrowind flashback and check it's corpse for Scrolls of Icarian Flight. But I fear this is merely the flickering light designed to lure us into the eternal darkness.
So please, before it is too late, repent from this most vile of sins. Return fantasykind where they belong, with both feet on the ground.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Its allways fun to see people beg for changes in the MMO genre, and when someone makes a drastic change, the same people start complying about it.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
haha, I think we should fear the Thief a lot more than the Engi. The thieves have more skills that make them jump around than the engi could shake a keg of gun powder at.
This is not a game.
I could care less about the aesthetics. I do care about the "mechanics" of the class. Having stationary turrets or mines has never been a favorite mechanic of mine in ANY mmorpg. Warhammer is a great example. 2 classes which I thought would rock, the Engineer and Magus, made me feel hindered and limited by their non-moving "turret" type pets. I had the same issue with totems and Shamans in WoW. Granted, that's just me, I like to be on the move A LOT. I lean more toward the WoW warlock then anything else.
Still, I'll try the class, although it will probably be the last one on my list that I do try. Can't really say much more without actually playing the game. So much can change between now and launch.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/aesthetic
Like the prior poster said, mechanics.... not aesthetics; the artwork is fine.
That's entertaining. I ask for views on aesthetics and I get a bunch of stuff about mechanics, even from gobla. >___>
However, I see most of you read and are really intelligent. Good for you! If anyone has problems with the mechanics then they can feel free to create a thread for that - mechanics and balance aren't my issue and I have nothing to say about that.
Oh, no, it's one of those people from ze Dutchlands!
Well, if you hate the Engineer and you're Dutch, there's only one possible response.
Relax dude, it's just a game. My post is just a joke.
Besides, aesthethics is about how things look. People don't like bunnyhopping because it looks silly, not because it's a bad mechanic (seeing as running through someone is the same as jumping through someone and jumping doesn't cause skills to miss more or any other actual gameplay effects save for being able to jump over small fences).
Even the jump part of the jump shot skill is aesthetic. They could have made it a quantum flux teleporter (and yes, I'd have brought up that instead if they did) that had the exact same gameplay effects without having Engineers launching themselves through the sky.
Unless jumping and using jump shot turns you completely invisible then those things are also aesthethic as they have a visual component.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
I love the aesthetics, why?
I just see it as people without any supernatural ability attempting to mimic supernatural ability, much like supervillains with Jetpacks. Queue the Venture Brothers theme.
Maybe it's because I watch Venture Brothers that I don't mind it very much actually.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
This is by far the best reply I have seen about the Engineer.
Unfortunately, fantasy gaming has been plagued with D&D and LotR elements for far too long. Yes both of the IPs helped create our fantasy realms, but people cling to the standards created in those IPs too much. People just assume that fantasy means, big strong warriors, weak wizards who can be destructive, and any and all "tech" must be based in magic.
ANet is trying to break down a lot of preconceived notions and former boundries (trinity), and while they have gotten some mixed reactions with particular announcements, it's obvious the overall feeling is that the general community is looking forward to the game because of the boundry breaking ideas.
I would say that while GW2 might not be completely revolutionary, it is certainly evolutionary for the genre.