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Future of mmo combat

AstoranAstoran Member Posts: 27

Hello everyone, Astoran here. I am a relatively new member to mmorpg.com but I wanted to start getting involved in the community more by starting a weekly discussion of the future of mmo gaming.

This week I wanted to talk about combat.

Combat is something that has not really changed much in mmo's over the years, but recently has seen some new takes on how it can be executed. Many games that are currently being developed are trying new twitch based or action based combat systems. While this type of combat has been done before in games such as Darkfall and shooters like Planetside and Global Agenda, it really has not been explored much for non shooter mmos.

Games such as GW2 with the ability to dodge attacks and TERA with the complete action combat system (including dodging and having to aim most attacks) are currently being developed and will realease in the near future. Do you think this is the future of MMO combat or will the old tab target system make its way back, or will a entirely new system come to be created?

Comments

  • elockeelocke Member UncommonPosts: 4,335

    All I know is, AoC tried to change up combat and I hated it.  I end up just playing casters in that game because melee just doesn't feel right.  Now, it will be interesting to see how Tera and GW2 feel when we finally get to play them.  I just hope it fits all class types and not just casters or melee.  As long as it "feels" right and fluid then I'll try anything. 

    Personally, the combat style in GA and Darkfall isn't something I pine for. It just feels limited, as silly as that sounds compared to having a "locked" target in tab target combat systems, but there it is.

  • ScrimMalteseScrimMaltese Member Posts: 469

    The best combat I've seen in an MMO yet, is hands down DCUO.

    However, the game itself is built too much like an Action Game and not much like an MMO. To me it doesn't justify plopping down a monthly fee to play a multiplayer Action game. 

    I have never liked the tab and target. That's nothing but laziness. Back when I played WoW, I have tanked some of the hardest raids so drunk that I couldn't even speak on vent. They are rediculously easy. 

    The only problem with DCUO's combat system, is that you pretty much need to use a controller. But, I'm not one of those people who are uptight and get my panties in a twist, because I need to use a controller on my PC. I used an XBox 360 Controller for PC just fine. (I like the feel alot more as opposed to a PS3 Controller)

  • astoriaastoria Member UncommonPosts: 1,677

    I think, well maybe hope more than think, that more hybrid styles will be used.

    I for one like DCUO's, Fallen Earth's, and Darkfall's combat styles for example. I never considered DCUO a full on console fighter, but more a hybrid of MMO and fighter games. I would classify Darkfall's and Fallen Earth systems similarly - hybrid FPS RPG systems.

    (& because I will use almost any excuse to say it ) also RIP Tabula Rasa!!!! it had an excellent core combat system. (classes were a bit poorly thought out imo).

    I hope these are used more in games without other flaws or shortcomings (as have been discussed at length elsewhere).

     

    "Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga

  • BelightBelight Member Posts: 73

    I loved Age of Conan's combat. My only complaint is that you had to start the combo with a keystroke instead of just doing the damned combo. Also magic and arcehry should have relied on aiming and combos as well. It would have balanced the gameplay more. Fatalities were the best!

    I have not decided rather I prefer 1st person or 3rd person.

    For 1st person games I'd like to see MMORPG combat take ideas from games like Age of Chivalry, Dark Messsiah, and Oblivion. Also the SMART system from Brink is pretty slick.

    For 3rd person I like the Age of Conan and Mount and Blade approach.

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy Member UncommonPosts: 2,053

    Originally posted by Belight

    I loved Age of Conan's combat.

    Same here.

    I also enjoy Vindictus' combat. I am hoping more mmos will gravitate to this type of combat.

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower Member Posts: 1,245

    Love the bow range combat in Darkfall but melee was not that great and magic i did not like much eather.

    But for me strafe, dodge attacks and aim must be in, plus i rather play like elder scrolls or darkfall in FPS style, maybe melee as in Darkfall in third person is ok but i think melee in darkfall is bit boring and limited not many variations or possibility's.

  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,238

    The future of combat is where players can adapt to the AI and not restricted to linear abilities. Combat mechanics where strategy overlaps rotations. Class builds are a form of bad design and limit the player into one avenue of combat. You cannot adapt in combat with class builds.

    Took my post out because I didn't want to hijack the thread.

  • AganazerAganazer Member Posts: 1,319

    Originally posted by Astoran

    Combat is something that has not really changed much in mmo's over the years, but recently has seen some new takes on how it can be executed.

    That is only true if the only games you ever played are WoW and its clones. UO, Asheron's Call, Tabula Rasa, Spellborn, D&D Online, and a few others have all been completely different than the WoW formula. I love all these games and personally prefer twitch based combat systems, but there is one thing we really need to accept.

    Twitch combat isn't for everyone. Some people want a slower system that doesn't rely on the player's dexterity. Some want more tactics. Some even want it to be completely brainless and play itself. There is no one future. If anything we will see these diverge into subgenres much like we have seen the PvP versus PvE focused games branch off from one another.

    But really Astoran, go play DDO. I consider it to be the granddaddy of twitch combat MMORPG's. It has a great mix of player skill versus character skill. It manages to mix in some tactically significant decisions rather than being a mindless clickfest like many action games.It contains the full gambit of strategicaly significant choices such as taunts, stuns, control, blocking, dodging, flanking, and any other gamey combat mechanics that I have seen in RPG's.

  • AstoranAstoran Member Posts: 27

    Originally posted by Aganazer

    Originally posted by Astoran



    Combat is something that has not really changed much in mmo's over the years, but recently has seen some new takes on how it can be executed.

    That is only true if the only games you ever played are WoW and its clones. UO, Asheron's Call, Tabula Rasa, Spellborn, D&D Online, and a few others have all been completely different than the WoW formula. I love all these games and personally prefer twitch based combat systems, but there is one thing we really need to accept.

    Twitch combat isn't for everyone. Some people want a slower system that doesn't rely on the player's dexterity. Some want more tactics. Some even want it to be completely brainless and play itself. There is no one future. If anything we will see these diverge into subgenres much like we have seen the PvP versus PvE focused games branch off from one another.

    But really Astoran, go play DDO. I consider it to be the granddaddy of twitch combat MMORPG's. It has a great mix of player skill versus character skill. It manages to mix in some tactically significant decisions rather than being a mindless clickfest like many action games.It contains the full gambit of strategicaly significant choices such as taunts, stuns, control, blocking, dodging, flanking, and any other gamey combat mechanics that I have seen in RPG's.

    What I was implying was that "in general" combat has not changed much. Obviously there will always be some companies willing to try new things, but most of the time they simply follow suit.

    Also I will make sure to give DDO a try to see what you mean.

  • CactusJackCactusJack Member UncommonPosts: 393

    Originally posted by ScrimMaltese

    The best combat I've seen in an MMO yet, is hands down DCUO.

    However, the game itself is built too much like an Action Game and not much like an MMO. To me it doesn't justify plopping down a monthly fee to play a multiplayer Action game. 

    I have never liked the tab and target. That's nothing but laziness. Back when I played WoW, I have tanked some of the hardest raids so drunk that I couldn't even speak on vent. They are rediculously easy. 

    The only problem with DCUO's combat system, is that you pretty much need to use a controller. But, I'm not one of those people who are uptight and get my panties in a twist, because I need to use a controller on my PC. I used an XBox 360 Controller for PC just fine. (I like the feel alot more as opposed to a PS3 Controller)

    Like me. I don't want to play a MMO on my PC with a XBox controller. Sorry...that's for the kiddies. I wouldn't bother even considering that. I don't own any console nor have any desire. If an MMO has FPS style combat a keyboard/mouse should realistically give you more control than any controller would.

    Tab targeting is terrible. EvE isn't a twitch based combat model..but there is pilot skill involved. Darkfall's combat was good except all the goddamn bunnyhopping. It looks ridiculous. Other than that, DF had great spell/bow combat. Even mounted combat was good..not as good as Mount and Blade, but good enough.

    Any MMO that adopts FPS style combat will always walk the line of latency and the ability to keep players on somewhat even grounds. I personally think that if a gaming company can come up with a decent idea, simple/usable GUI, and large non instanced world..it would be viable.

    Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
    Hiatus: EvE
    Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
    Interested in: better games in general

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada Member UncommonPosts: 1,282

    My guess is that combat splits up in action (fps like) and classic mmorpg sytle (like wow).

    Action style will close out the older audience like my father who is 75 playing mmos since year 2k and being not able to handle action games for his age and the limitiation this brings (eyesight and general health become poor).

    Of my personal taste i come from turn based games (and pausable rpg style) and like that, i like to enjoy my games while action is more for the thrill seekers.

    Both worlds dont fit together so a split is the only solution.

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

    MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
    Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM

  • twodayslatetwodayslate Member Posts: 724

    The future of MMO combat is LARPing while wearing a VR headset.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    I just hope there is more depth to combat in future MMOs.  I am not sure how well the market will handle this though.  The success of WoW and its system that lacks any depth is a bit discouraging, but I hear Eve is more complex so perhaps there is hope.

    I think pretty much any sort of combat system in a single player or co-op games is possible to port to MMOs.  Multiplayer games allow more cooperation and interaction between player abilities and actions, and I've always liked depth here.

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada Member UncommonPosts: 1,282


    Originally posted by twodayslate
    The future of MMO combat is LARPing while wearing a VR headset.

    We had Virtual Reality Caf

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

    MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
    Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM

  • VenDyneVenDyne Member Posts: 51

    It'd really depend on what'll happen. Things could shift to action game format, or maybe FPS like Hellgate: London or something, but I believe that the traditional (mouse to click target or move, 1-9/F1-F12 skills, etc.) will stay for a very long time since it's much easier when using a keyboard.

    Sturgeon's Law: "90% of everything is crud."

  • ScrimMalteseScrimMaltese Member Posts: 469

    Originally posted by CactusJack

    Originally posted by ScrimMaltese

    The best combat I've seen in an MMO yet, is hands down DCUO.

    However, the game itself is built too much like an Action Game and not much like an MMO. To me it doesn't justify plopping down a monthly fee to play a multiplayer Action game. 

    I have never liked the tab and target. That's nothing but laziness. Back when I played WoW, I have tanked some of the hardest raids so drunk that I couldn't even speak on vent. They are rediculously easy. 

    The only problem with DCUO's combat system, is that you pretty much need to use a controller. But, I'm not one of those people who are uptight and get my panties in a twist, because I need to use a controller on my PC. I used an XBox 360 Controller for PC just fine. (I like the feel alot more as opposed to a PS3 Controller)

    Like me. I don't want to play a MMO on my PC with a XBox controller. Sorry...that's for the kiddies. I wouldn't bother even considering that. I don't own any console nor have any desire. If an MMO has FPS style combat a keyboard/mouse should realistically give you more control than any controller would.

    Sorry that you feel that way. I feel that anyone who doesn't try to enjoy new things and instantly marks them off for one reason or another, is for kiddies. But, to each their own. 

    DCUO isn't a FPS style. It's an Action Game. Action Games are terrible on PC, which is why I bought my Controller. It's pretty much the only game that exists, that plays better with a controller than a mouse and keyboard. They are one of the most popular styles of games, far outnumbering FPS, so I know I'm not alone. 

  • immortal111immortal111 Member UncommonPosts: 54

    Originally posted by ScrimMaltese

    Originally posted by CactusJack


    Originally posted by ScrimMaltese

    The best combat I've seen in an MMO yet, is hands down DCUO.

    However, the game itself is built too much like an Action Game and not much like an MMO. To me it doesn't justify plopping down a monthly fee to play a multiplayer Action game. 

    I have never liked the tab and target. That's nothing but laziness. Back when I played WoW, I have tanked some of the hardest raids so drunk that I couldn't even speak on vent. They are rediculously easy. 

    The only problem with DCUO's combat system, is that you pretty much need to use a controller. But, I'm not one of those people who are uptight and get my panties in a twist, because I need to use a controller on my PC. I used an XBox 360 Controller for PC just fine. (I like the feel alot more as opposed to a PS3 Controller)

    Like me. I don't want to play a MMO on my PC with a XBox controller. Sorry...that's for the kiddies. I wouldn't bother even considering that. I don't own any console nor have any desire. If an MMO has FPS style combat a keyboard/mouse should realistically give you more control than any controller would.

    Sorry that you feel that way. I feel that anyone who doesn't try to enjoy new things and instantly marks them off for one reason or another, is for kiddies. But, to each their own. 

    DCUO isn't a FPS style. It's an Action Ga

    me. 

    It's pretty much the only game that exists, that plays better with a controller than a mouse and keyboard.

    Action Games are terrible on PC, which is why I bought my Controller. They are 

    one of the most popular styles of games, far outnumbering FPS, so I know I'm not alone. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

    You forgot FFXI and FFXIV

  • RequiamerRequiamer Member Posts: 2,034

    For me GW2 combat system is on the best track to the furtur, because that's the only that try to take both the part from fps and traditional tab targeting mmos, and tweak the result heavely to obtain a good result. I think GW2 will have a very nice combat system, we will see. (they will just need to work on pve a bit more honestly so that using this combat system really shine in their game)

    Tera is just a fps slightly tweaked, i don't think it will be that good honestly, even if a lot of people say it is great. You need to tweak the movement, and they did nothing about this, they just ported a first person shooter and thats it. In GW2 there is an entire dodging mechanism that drain stamina, so it definitly is far headed to me.

     

    Ho and console combat system? why not, i'm not very convinced though, and i don't play on console anyway so. Some are good for sure, but i think pc is better for that.

  • stragen001stragen001 Member UncommonPosts: 1,720

    The way forward for me is aiming. Plain and simple.

    You can still have all your different skills and abilities but you have to manually aim at your target with a crosshairs etc and fire off your attacks at the right time.

    There are a couple of games that already do this, like Fallen Earth, and Darkfall I beleive, and The Chronicles of Spellborn did, and Fallen Earth has by far the most interesting combat for me in an mmo (havent played darkfall). 

    Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by Requiamer

    For me GW2 combat system is on the best track to the furtur, because that's the only that try to take both the part from fps and traditional tab targeting mmos, and tweak the result heavely to obtain a good result. I think GW2 will have a very nice combat system, we will see. (they will just need to work on pve a bit more honestly so that using this combat system really shine in their game)

    The thing I like most about GW2 combat system are the combos between different class abilities.  That's almost always been very rewarding in games I've played.  It was definitely the best thing about FFXI for instance, though I imagine GW2's system won't require that you have a flow chart to figure out how to work with others.

    Well that and how it seems to use space and areas with its abilities.

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