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(MMOExposing) WoW CAT's downfall
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,387
I shared this here
But I wanted to make this a thread of its own. This is my view, and my opinion. So you may call me Troll or something, but keep that in mind, this is my view.
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I believe the reason for WoW's Current downfall, stim mostly from CAT, but also from many other things over the last few X-pacs, which these issues are overlapping and stacking, making these issues more and more obviously.
The Problem with WoW:CAT is the (1)PvP is now destroyed, while at the same time,(2) Blizzard is making PvE less and less casual friendly.
These two concepts never go well together in a MMORPG. Thats a fact is my book at least.
I will share this again.
Lets look at the history of WoW's so called success.
Back in Vanilla WoW, World PvP was much more popular. Then came BG, and Old AV being the most popular of all of them. WoW was much more hardcore back then. WoW had the lowest percentage of of Endgame PvEers ever in WoW history!!! Well if WoW was a PvE game, than why would it's population grow if only a small percentage of its players ever touched Endgame PvE?
The Answer is Simple! It was the PvP. (yeah yeah yeah, laugh all you want but PvP is the reason for WoW's success, along side the Endgame raiding)
back in Vanilla WoW Old AV, was a major contender of player time. Most of these non Endgame Raiders, would spend most of their time in Old AV doing PvP, and doing starter dungeons to get gear for PvP (D2 set) and the Honor Rank grind was important back then.
slowly over time, as Blizzard moved into TBC, blizzard felt the long play times in AV, needed to be cut. TBC was the first killer of AV. (IMO Blizzard actually did this to get more players to do Arena back then).
But thats another point. Arena PvP was much more accessible back then since early on there wasnt Team Rating requirements on the Early Arena Gear Set Equipment. This gave the mass PvP player base, a chance (slow,,, but still a good chance) to get decent PvP gear even if they weren't on some of the best teams. Also less than 11% I believe of players reached Illidan. so once again,,, what you think these players were doing? (PvP grind)
WoTLK comes along, and Blizzard completely kills what made Old AV enjoyable. Also Arena at this point was not friendly to new comers that didnt gradually get updated PvP gear from the start, or had people willing to carry them. I quit WoW early on in WoTLK, came back, and it was nearly impossible to get decent PvP gear from any source. BG PvP gear is a Joke by this time, and Arena gear has rating requirements now. and funny thing here. Blizzard added a new 40 BG (IoC) lol what a F**king joke! This suppose to be a AV replacement? lols. IoC was dead on my BG server. it was dull and lamer than AV. it lacked the PvE elements of Old AV. and the Bosses just wasnt threatening as a Old AV Elite was compared to an avg LvL 60 player back then. Funny thing is Blizzard said no more 40 man BG would be added after AV. guess they lied. if they were going to lie, at least they could do a good job with that lie.
Then Blizzard introduced the Random BG tool. This basically killed the population of the Large Scale PvP games (AV and IoC) completely.
But Blizzard did introduce the PvP Zone concept to WoW. good idea in Beta, but I saw this concept going downhill back in beta when Kalgan bumped the cooldown period. I remember that especially because I was banned from the Beta Forums by Kalgan for calling this mess out.
lol here comes CAT!!!! YAY THE WORLD IS F***ING CHANGING!!! YAY!!!
damn just go back and view my post history in the WoW forum here. I called this shit out months ago.
CAT added NOTHING NEW feature wise, and at the same time, it killed all form of PvP, and at the same time, bringing the harder difficulty similar to that of Vanilla WoW's PvE endgame. That just dont blend well. And now Blizzard is seeing the shit unfold before their eyes.
The last interesting form of PvP has been the concept behind PvP zones. lols Blizzard killed that with one swoop of their hammers, when they introduced that flawed Queue system. lol wow, who came up with that idea anyway? It basically force players from the higher population faction, to have to wait hours just to play WORLD PVP.... dumb idea on Blizzard's part.
and those 2 half asses BG they added in CAT, feel like Boring dull rehashes of Older BG. Plus they spread the population even more thin. Arena is more unassailable than ever, and BG is just a dead concept now. forget PvP in WoW.
ok so now that PvE is milking away the Casuals of WoW's population and PvP being dead, whats left for them to do? Quest Grind or something? lol, yeah the F*** right!!!
Blizzard got a mess on their hands. and their Ego is too large to change now. we seen this from Blizzard. Only consumer complaint gets Blizzard to get their butts to work. (Remember Real ID community uproar?)
but hey, most people here think WoWs PvP is a joke, and wont even pay attention to my thread here.
I use to be very close to WoW's Development. I lost all respect for Blizzard from WoTLK on. They dont listen until its too late.
These new MMORPG are making similar mistakes to WoW's new Development team. I am seeing the same trend. I blame this false view of WoW's success and super over the top Ego Developers, for the reason most Post WoW's Themepark mmorpg's fail.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
oh damn,,, I just realize that this is a super large rant. sorry for the eye bleeding
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Refrences?
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"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
My friend, you are largely underestimating the power of the silent majority. No, not the hardcore pve group. No, not the notable pvp group. This invisible group of players who pay their subscription, play 20 hours a month, did few quest a week, crafted some boots here and there, and progressed really slowly.
PVP was still spread accross Azeroth during all of vanilla. Sure, there weren't as many epic Tarren Mill-Southshore or Stranglethorn fights going on, as those GvG fights were successfully transfered into battlegrounds. Open PvP still did exist.
Now since TBC, what changed as much? um... Flying mounts. There was some small episodes of open pvp during the levelling process. But flying mounts made it safe for travellers to fly from point A to point B, effectively removing a ton of players from the classic ground transportation methods. Sure, it wasn't completely gone, but it was much more rare. In addition, another chunk of players disappeared from outside the cities when they introduced instant-teleportations to battlegrounds, to dungeons with dungeon finder and by opening portals from Shattrath and Dalaran.
Now about AV, sure it was epic. I liked it. But they had the dumb idea that they needed to make it accessible to anyone...
Well, how long was a queue to get into Epic AV again? I doubt it was as popular as you imply 
And finally about your pvp vs pve argument, they reached their peak when they were in the process of converting pvp realms into pve realms in Europe. You could see in the data taken from warcraft census that pve realms had, in average, higher populations, while pvp realms were, well, low pop.
Aww, I thought CAT was a person, and that this was going to be a story about a staffer's fall from grace.
You're right, it's only a so called success, I heard they haven't made a dime from the game......
Most of what you said was silly but this part was by far the funniest.
pvp did not make this game a success. what the hell have you been smokin?
pvp in this game is a stun/fear joke. resilience killed pvp.
Dude, I'm not trying to troll you, but you really don't EXPOSE anything. You just mostly complain about stuff except, it's almost always extremely bitter and sometimes not even based on real facts. I'm all for complaining in order to make things better, but that only really happens when it's constructive.
I know college teaches us that we need to pad the stuff we say and avoid absolutes, but when you do write like that, you need to make sure that what you are saying still makes logical sense, even if it's just fluff statements. Statements like "WoW's so-called success" implies that there is some sort of cover-up going on, but the FACT is that WoW DOES control the great majority of subscriptions to the point that it can be like saying that the sun has more mass than all the other objects in the solar system put together. Last time I checked, WoW had more subs than all the other subscription MMOs put together. WoW also makes a ton of profit for Blizzard and its parent company. So in both of those regards it's a "success" not a "so-called success."
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"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
To keep it short and sweet...
What killed WoW for me was Cataclysm over simplifying talent trees and itemization... again... and yet another round of gear depreciation reminding me that spending countless hours grinding the same "end-game" content over and over again for gear isn't very fulfilling when today's current "end-game" is tommorow's "who the hell cares about this instance and it's drops?".
This guy constantly creates new topics then leaves. He rarely sticks around to discuss anything. Why would someone take the time to create a topic, present your point of view, request a discussion, then never really bother to reply? Before you know it, hes creating a new thread about something else. I wonder, whats the point?
Cata is very casual friendly its just not friendly to bad players, and if you are a baddie gtfo and stop wrecking a good game.
This.
I quit WoW though because I didn't like every noob under the sun having purples. Made the items seem less unique and epic.
Wows real problem is time, not CATA. A 7 year old game have harder to atrract new players than when it was say 4 years old.
And the kids today have parents that played Wow, nothing is more uncool then what your parents like when you are a teenager.
Also, casual friendly and easy is not the same thing. Guildwars is casual friendly but a Drok run in hardmode is far from easy. Wow is still casual friendly, they just made it slightly harder. If that decision was bad or good depend on who you ask.
There is of course the possibility that Wow is suffering from the fact that Kaplan and several others of the best devs were removed after the launch of Wotlk, moving the most talented people to a new product can affect the quality of the game but even if Kaplan were still at the helm the game would sooner or later start to loose players, that happens to all game no matter how popular they are.
I wanted to respond to your opinion that the game is getting less and less casual friendly with Blizzards latest patch notes which my guild are currently debating, 99% of them see them as further dumbing the game down and making it so easy that a one armed monkey high on methalyted spirits could get decked out in epic loot in a week.
Dungeons & Raids
Bastion of Twilight
The damage modifier on Normal has been reduced for Arion, Elementium Monstrosity, Feludius, Ignacius, and Terrastra.
Removed one of each type of Bound elemental from the Ascendant Council chamber.
Arion
Chain Lightning damage has been reduced.
Cho’gall
Health, melee damage, Health of Corrupting Adherent, Depravity damage, Corrupting Crash damage, Flaming Destruction damage, and Unleashed Shadows damage has all been reduced by 20%.
Corrupting Crash and Depravity
Halved the amount of Corruption they give to 5 from 10.
Corrupted Bite effect caused by Blood of the Old God reduced.
Damage Taken from Corruption of the Old God per Corrupted Blood has been reduced from 3% per stack to 2% per stack.
Debilitating Beam damage has been reduced by 20% to 6,400.
The duration of Twisted Devotion has been reduced by 25%.
Dragon Siblings
Health, melee damage, Twilight Meteorite damage, Devouring Flames, Blackout damage, Unstable Twilight damage, Twilight Zone damage, Twilight Blast damage, Fabulous Flames damage, has all been reduced by 20%.
Elementium Monstrosity
Electrical Instability damage has been reduced.
Feludius
Damage due to being Frozen while Waterlogged has been reduced.
Halfus
Health, melee damage, Fireball/Fireball Barrage damage, Furious Roar damage, Scorching Breath damage, Shadow Nova damage, has all been reduced by 20%.
Nether Scion, Slate Dragon, Storm Rider, Time Warden, and Orphaned Emerald Whelp health has been reduced by 20%.
Shadow Nova base cast time has been increased.
Ignacious
Rising Flames now increases damage by 3% per stack, down from 5%.
Terrastra
Harden Skin now increases Physical damage dealt by 20% (down from 100%.)
Blackwing Descent
Atramedes
Health, melee damage, modulation damage, Roaring Flame Breath damage, and Searing Flame damage has all been reduced by 20%.
Modulation no longer causes Sound in normal difficulty.
Sound given by Sonar Pulse has been reduced to 3 (from 5.)
Chimaeron
Health reduced by 20% and melee damage reduced by 10%.
Chimaeron will now only cast two caustic slimes per 30 second cycle, at second 17 and second 23.
Drakeadon Mongrel
Time Lapse no longer stuns.
Frost Burn silence is now 3 seconds
Dwarven Kings
Whirlwind no longer drops threat.
Execution sentence now deals damage only.
Shield of Light absorption now reduced.
Magmaw
Damage and hit points reduced by 20%.
Lava Parasites have been diminished
Lava Spew damage, Magma Spit damage, Massive Crash damage, and Infectious Vomit damage have all been been reduced.
Mangled Lifeless no longer instantly kills, and damage has been reduced.
Parasitic Infection has been decreased.
Maloriak
Health, damage, Aberation health/damage, Arcane Storm damage, Prime Subject damage, Flash Freeze/Shatter damage, and Scorching Blast damage has all been decreased by 20%.
Aberration stacking damage buff decreased.
Prime Subjects no longer fixate, and are no longer immune to taunt.
Nefarian
Animated Bone Warriors take 33 seconds to fall over, (down from 50.)
Blast Nova cast time increased.
Chromatic Prototype Health reduced 20%.
Electrocute damage reduced 30%.
Fewer Animated Bone warriors spawn.
Magma Stacking debuff effect reduced 75%.
Nefarian health and melee damage reduced by 20%.
Nefarian's Shadowblaze cast frequency cannot increase beyond 1 per 15 sec.
Onyxia health and melee damage reduced by 20%.
Shadowflame Barrage damage reduced 20%.
Tail Lash damage reduced 50%.
Omnotron Council
Barrier absorb amount increased by 100%.
Increased the cooldown on Power Conversion (Converted Power chance).
Health, Melee damage, Electrical Discharge damage, Lightning Conductor damage, Health of Poison Bomb, Incineration Security Measure damage, Arcane Annihilator damage, has all been reduced by 20%.
Flamethrower damage has been reduced by 40%.
Static Shock caused by Unstable Shield damage and Poison Bomb damage has been decreased by 50%.
Throne of the Four Winds
Al’Akir
Acid Rain now stacks every 20s (up from 15s.)
Electrocute now pulses every 1s (up from 0.5s.)
Feedback duration increased to 30s (from 20s.)
Health, damage, and Wind Burst damage have all been reduced 20%.
Lightning and Lightning Rod recast time has been increased.
Lightning Strike friendly chain damage has been halved.
Will no longer use Static Shock on normal difficulty in phase 1 or phase 2.
Conclave of the Four Winds
Gathering Strength cast time has been increased
Ice Patch slow is now 5% per stack, up to 10 stacks (down from 10% per stack, up to 30 stacks), damage reduced by 20%.
Rohash, Anshal, Nezir melee, Ravenous Creeper health/damage, Ravenous Creeper toxic spores damage, Hurricane damage, Sleet Storm damage , Permafrost damage , Slicing Gale, and Wind Blast damage have all been reduced by 20%.
Wind Chill damage decreased by 20%and now increases damage taken by 5% per stack.
You could get epics from D2 tier set.
?
@MMORUS
Blizzard always lower the specs for PvE. seems like they should have tested their PvE better. The Difficulty needed adjustment. most Casuals cant do it. call it dumbing down if you like, but once PvE is unplayable, then what is left to do in WoW?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Yes and DAoC didnt have CC right?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I agree with the OP, and I left, old game, had fun, but got worse and worse as the game aged
So doesn't this counter your argument that PvE content isn't casual friendly?
I'm all for lowering the bar to get more ppl into dungeons, but you still need that challenge to get ppl coming back, without that feeling your conquering the content what is there in the game to give you that sense of achievement? it's like playing all your games on the lowest difficulty setting, you'l breeze through the game in no time at all and feel the poorer for it, maybe even feel cheated out of your money due to it being so easy.
There has to be a balance, Blizzard keeps blurring the lines, and swinging from one extreme to the next, 1 month it's hardcore the next it's just too easy, there is no half measures with them.
Just as a reference, I own all the expansions and don't play WoW and probably never will again.
In my opinion, there are a few different types of people that play WoW. Keep in mind that people from each type may dabble in the main acitivity from other types, but their focus will be on the activity that defines their type.
Type 1 are the players that care most about the solo questing. They keep playing as long as they have a character to level and new content to quest through when expansions release.
Type 2 are the players that care about challenging group based PvE (dungeons and raids). These people loved vanilla WoW, because it was a challenge to collect Epic gear and to complete the dungeons and raids. TBC made raids even harder and these players loved it. WoTLK ruined the difficulty of dungeons and raids to pull the first type of players into that content, but ended up upsetting the people that played WoW for this reason. So Cata went back to making things difficult, pleasing this crowd once more.
Type 3 are the PvP oriented types. They loved world PvP the most, and got used to BG's when they released after complaining about them for months, and some still do. Each expansion, in my opinion, ruined this portion of the game. At first, new PvP additions were received with mix emotions, but as the novelty of the new BG's, arenas, and etc. wore off, these players have become increasingly unhappy.
So overall, I think the only people who may of left that were once happy with WoW, but no longer are is the PvP types. The rest and most likely the most amount of people that has left, has left because they're tired of WoW. I left because I hate quest grinding to reach level cap, and because I'm bored with the instances you can do to reach level cap if you level purely from that. Also because I'm tired of this type of game in general. In fact, I don't even play MMORPG's right now, because MMO's are either similar to WoW in gameplay or aren't polished and populated enough to play.
Anyways, that's my opinion.
I agree that WoW's real problem is time. My most favorite MMO was DAoC, and it was my first MMO. I played it from 2002-2005 before I even knew other MMO's existed or that DAoC belonged to a genre called MMO's. So why did I quit DAoC if I enjoyed it so much? Because you get bored playing the same game after a while, especially once you've seen all there is to see. I think the majority of subs WoW has lost can be attributed to people just growing bored of WoW. Like you said, the game is 7 years old. People just now coming into the genre will probably be more interested in playing a new release. That's not to say WoW isn't still attracting new players, because I'm sure it attracts more new players than any other MMO, since they've had a remarkable marketing campaign throughout the years.
This is the only thing I agree with. I admit World PvP was fun before battlegrounds but after battlegrounds were released World PvP died. There were no more PvP raids. What is funny is that most people and critics thought WoW barely had any PvP before they introduced battlegrounds. I still remember reviews saying that there was no real pvp in the game. This was one of the very few criticisms the game received. Who's right then?
What I loved about Vanilla and TBC was immersion. You can laugh your ass off but I enjoyed WoW so much because I was in love with the lore and the universe. Vanilla was super immersive from the brilliant graphics to the amazing sounds the game had. I saw so many amazing places which I have only read about. Seeing one of your favourite universes in detailed 3rd person view was priceless. TBC still had immersion. It never actually implemented anything to break immersion.
Then WotlK. When I started playing it was too cookiecutter. It implemented so many things which break immersion. I mean how do you explain instant teleportation? What about splitting raids into 10 man and 25 man?? Huge immersion breaker. They just kept adding system which didn't have any explanations in game. I remember in Vanilla and TBC they actually released articles with relevant story to the patch.
For me WoW was not simply a game. It was my favourite RTS embodied in a huge 3D world. I have no such attachments to other MMOs. This is why I can never enjoy them to the extent I did WoW. That's why Ultima and Everquest did not hook me up when I tried them. It was WoW that pulled me in to give an MMO game a chance.
Wotlk made the WoW just that. A game called WoW. It was no longer the World of Warcraft.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I agree to an extent with the OP. My fiance and I were playing EQ2 while my brother was playing WoW. It was watching him play AV that got me interested in WoW and was the reason I ended up giving it a shot. I HATE quest grinding and spent as much time dungeon running as I could and ran BGs when I needed a break.
I didn't get into raiding until BC when I joined a casual guild who was just starting out at Kara. I enjoyed the Wintergrasp scene, the dungeon finder and more accessable raids that WotLK era brought. That was until Wintergrasp ended up just being the Horde camping the Alliance (us) at the gy and fp.
We moved into Cata and as a Holy/Disc priest I managed to keep my pug groups alive through some heroic content, but in the end it was mostly just a pissing contest between the dps and tank, tossing the blame around when something went wrong rather than just enjoying the experience and learning from it.
As an Alliance TB was a joke before they implemented the system to balance out the numbers, then it just became a matter of sitting at the bridge waiting to cross over just in time, if you weren't lucky enough to get into the BG itself for the points. The contested area was a campfest for roaming gank squads of Horde and no Alliance willing to band together to counter them.
With my dungeons being a disaster and the new BGs being nothing short of a rehashed version of the old, the only thing I found interesting was the new "story mode" quest lines that Cata brought. I actually enjoyed the questing this time through so I leveled up my pally to 85, learned quickly that nothing had changed and started the quest ride with my warrior to 85. I only made it to 82 before I quit.
I'm not sure where the downturn was. I thoroughly enjoyed WoTLK I thought it was one of the best MMO expansions I had ever played. The sheer amount of content and constantly adding the wings to ICC kept pushing the envelope. But I found Cataclysm to be incredibly frustrating to play. I couldn't put my finger on it exactly, but no matter what you wanted to do... PvE or PvP every where you turned it was just frustrating mechanics. And there really isn't enough crafting to solely do that.
PvP was "balanced" by adding obscene amounts of CC causing lots of rage when not having control of your character for 30 seconds and the patches only increased the rage. PvE got thrown in the deep end by making heroics hard again. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a challenge, but there is a reason why difficult raid situations cannot be accomplished by random pugs who are thrown together using a group-finder system which could be "tricked" by using pvp gear or non-spec gear. So the system was in place for easy, casual dungeon running and the dungeons required raid-level commitment.
While there are many reasons why I think WoW is bad for the MMO-community and MMO-genre I think Blizzard shot itself in the foot by making the players look left with WoTLK and then pulling us to the right in Cata. The end-game change was too much for me anyways.
I would also like to note that Blizzard has done everything they can to remove "delays" in their MMO. "Delays" are also known as filler and they might have also caused another problem for themselves by removing (almost) all the filler allowing for players to power through content MUCH faster than they can make it.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
If blizzard can't see whats wrong with cataclysm then they deserve to have Wow become a second class MMO. So many obvious knee jerk design decisions made every patch you would think the devs have schizophrenia.
I could go on and on about what Wow needs to come back and what needs to be changed to make Wow work. But if the Wow players leaving can't wake up a game company, then my puny opinion wont as well. But for the sake of causing myself pain I will.
1) Put back the hybrid system and expand on it. As of right now, you have a closed and limited system to switch up game play style. Why can't shamans off tank? they were good tanks level 40 vanilla, but that got removed. make it so we have diverse options thats is immersion.
2) Remove flying mounts from azeroth.
3) Take that crappy crafting system and make it super complex and make it so that what you make if you put the hard work in can be equal with end game items/gear.
4) Remove guild leveling. You made a guild a single entity and penalize players who devote time into the guild that so when they get kicked or leave the guild, rep gets reset. You should have made it so a player of high value even if he leaves or gets kicked can carry with some prestige with them to the next guild. Plus wheres guild housing? Plus just remove it.small guilds will never get the people to make it to Glvl3 in a human lifetime.
5) remove heroics or change them to be more casual freindly. take restrictions off of LFG and allow high levels to be able to help lower level groups out. make all cross server tools choose from your server first then go xcross to fill the group out. encourage server specific rewards for people who do home server only groups.
6) Stop rehasing old content. it's obvious to older players you lack the vision to add new stuff. You make 300 millions dollars a months take 4 of it and add devs to just make item/armor/weapons misc
7) Stop with all nerfing policys for classes. Just becuase someone or a grooup complains doesnt mean you change an entire class to become useless every other patch.
8) remove battlegrounds or make them legacys BGs that dont reward nothing but fun. make world PVP and warzones the way to go. Remove arena and reward those that played with a special title like grandmarshal had, then never make that mistake again. focus on world PVP or warzones.
9) remove resillence from the game.
10) Allow crafters to destruct item/weapons/armors and extract the magical atrributes from the them to make upgrade componets for new weapons.
11) upgrade your dam game engine. It's very long in the tooth and can't handle large amounts of people in smaller areas.upgrade it for the new warzones and world PVP i suggested above.
12) add random weekly world events. not talking about rifts well like rift, but add some excitement gets those asshats off those flying mounts in capital citys. make it so if your afk hovering above the auction house, a group of insane dragons attack the city anything to break up the boredom of ques.
Not much else who cares right hehe.
The problem with Cata are these three points:
1. The talent trees lost their luster and became too restrictive.
2. An entire expansion dedicated to attracting new players while neglecting the existing players doesn't make sense given how old the game is.
3. Lore doesn't make sense anymore.
I like BC because the lore was very good, and PVP was at its zenith. BG PVP and arena PVP was fun, although world PVP declined. PVE wise, heroics were a bit tedious, but still interesting.
I really like WotLK because it encouraged alt play, which means there wasn't a significant shortage of tanks or healers for PVE heroics. PVP was on the decline in WotLK, but my best memories was with Wintergrasp. As soon as I was off work, I would come home, log in, and mess around every night in that zone. It was fun, fast, and easy, and it is unfortunate Blizz didn't do enough to balance the servers.
A wise man once said, "nothing breeds success like success" which seems to be the case with WoW. You make some rather opinionated points here. After my second account hack I gave up on WoW but remember the ol days in AV where the game did not end until one of the gernerals died. I once played a game for 3 hours with players coming in and out. It was the best of times...it was the worst of times.
Nevertheless, if you have any stats to back-up you writting it would make for a better thread.