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Devs, WTH With All the Class Restrictions?

WarzodWarzod Member UncommonPosts: 488

What is with eastern development companies and their love of putting arbitrary restrictions on gender and race regarding class choices? Some race restrictions I will give you, not many shaman in a hyper advanced techological society. However it seems that most of the MMORPGs coming out of the east put them in their 'just because'. I'm a guy and I want to play a healer... sorry all the healers in this universe are women... My girlfriend likes to play meleeNOPE sorry, all the warrior classes are just for guys. OK, how about a mage? All mages are half-man half-platypus hermaphrodites with 3 arms... Thief? All thieves are semi-sentient robots made out of used washing machines...

It sounds rediculous but if you have played enough eastern ports you know I am not kidding.

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  • twodayslatetwodayslate Member Posts: 724

    Regressive cultual attitudes mixed with modern technology.  Warriors are masculine, nurses are feminine, magic is weeeeird so its users need to reflect that, thieves are inhuman monsters.  I like to picture asian cultural exports as the US was in the 70s - institutionalized sexism and wacky value judgements - with generous portions of abstract art and superstition thrown into the mix.

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 4,011

    I find the restrictions make the games more interesting. It's a personal preference. I don't really care what race a class is that I want to play. If it's limited, I will just pick my favorite out of what is available. Also, if I really like a certain race, I don't care what classes it is restricted to. I will pick my favorite from what is avialable. My only caveat is that there are other races available to play (in general) besides humans.

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  • DiovidiusDiovidius Member UncommonPosts: 1,026

    It's funny because at the moment the reaction to Guild Wars 2 is the opposite. There have been a lot of negative remarks about the recently announced Engineer. One of the remarks is that because all races can be all classes the Sylvari (plant sidhe-like creatures) can be an Engineer which they shouldn't be able to. Personally I love the freedom in Guild Wars 2 but I guess that too is not for everyone.

  • itchmonitchmon Member RarePosts: 1,999

    Originally posted by Warzod

    What is with eastern development companies and their love of putting arbitrary restrictions on gender and race regarding class choices? Some race restrictions I will give you, not many shaman in a hyper advanced techological society. However it seems that most of the MMORPGs coming out of the east put them in their 'just because'. I'm a guy and I want to play a healer... sorry all the healers in this universe are women... My girlfriend likes to play meleeNOPE sorry, all the warrior classes are just for guys. OK, how about a mage? All mages are half-man half-platypus hermaphrodites with 3 arms... Thief? All thieves are semi-sentient robots made out of used washing machines...

    It sounds rediculous but if you have played enough eastern ports you know I am not kidding.

    just play the female healer character if you want to be healers and all healers are female.

    if that bothers you that's cool, but it's your hangup and not theirs

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  • WarzodWarzod Member UncommonPosts: 488

    I would imagine that these sorts of preconceived notions about masculinity and gender roles might be part of the reason eastern MMO ports never do very well in the west. The massive grind nature of them of course contributing. As the shift grows toward a larger population of female gamers entering the market dissatisfaction with this would only grow as I am going to go out on a limb and say most of them aren't playing male characters to "stare at the butt". If they want to play a class they are going to want to play it as a female and not some scaled spider-dump truck. Then there are roleplayers. While I do not share it, I do understand that to some players the avatar is nothing more than a collection of pixels to be named "warezmyfingerbeen". To others there is a greater connection to their persona and being forced to be something they do not want to be hits at the very core of human nature.

  • psyclumpsyclum Member Posts: 792

    I could be wrong, but i think 30 years ago, all US navy pilots were men:D

    besides, you are playing a RPG,  start acting like it:D

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247

    Originally posted by Warzod

    What is with eastern development companies and their love of putting arbitrary restrictions on gender and race regarding class choices?

    Maybe it's as simple as the design decision being so that there is less art and animation to create, thus allowing them to offer more animations, gear and items with a faster turn around on them. 

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  • DisdenaDisdena Member UncommonPosts: 1,093

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Warzod

    What is with eastern development companies and their love of putting arbitrary restrictions on gender and race regarding class choices?

    Maybe it's as simple as the design decision being so that there is less art and animation to create, thus allowing them to offer more animations, gear and items with a faster turn around on them. 

    That was my thought as well. If there's only one race and gender that can be a mage and equip robes, then you only need one model for each robe in the game instead of 2 (male and female) for every single race.

    image
  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    It's funny because at the moment the reaction to Guild Wars 2 is the opposite. There have been a lot of negative remarks about the recently announced Engineer. One of the remarks is that because all races can be all classes the Sylvari (plant sidhe-like creatures) can be an Engineer which they shouldn't be able to. Personally I love the freedom in Guild Wars 2 but I guess that too is not for everyone.

    Off topic: The Sylvari are sentient beings, they may have some closeness to nature due to their origins, but this isnt binding. In the novels there was a Sylvari necromancer (which will also be a combo available in the game) and people dont normally associate plants with death either, but these are essentially just another humanoid, with its own free will and knowledge. None of the professions in GW2 are linked to racial customs or physiology (like a Shaman / Priest or a Dragoon / Flying class). 

    On topic: I dont mind some restrictions as long as they make sense in terms of the game lore. Large races not being able to be theives? Fine with me. Small races not being able to be warriors? Also fine.

    Generally restricting roles to certain genders is a big no no these days (unless you want to alienate people who like playing as female or male only characters), but some games have handled it well by offering different professions for each gender.

    I have noticed that a common trend in eastern MMOs is due to you actually playing a specific character, rather than creating your own. Which explains why you cant choose your gender. But as others have said, its likely to save time and funds developing character animations and equipment, since these are usually not large budget games.

  • CorkCorkCorkCorkCorkCork Member Posts: 70

    Final Fantasy XI isn't like that at all.

    And yes, the lower budget games from Eastern MMO companies do have gender restrictions. It's just convinient for them to do less graphical work and concentrate more on the content of the game, i believe.

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,521

    Originally posted by CorkCorkCork

    Final Fantasy XI isn't like that at all.

    And yes, the lower budget games from Eastern MMO companies do have gender restrictions. It's just convinient for them to do less graphical work and concentrate more on the content of the game, i believe.

    I think this is the real reason, its more economical to create a game with gender/race limitations, at least with the eastern MMO's the OP mentioned.

    But having class restrictiosn on race and gender goes way back to the origins of MMO's and their lore, and I recall DAOC had tons of unique classes for all 3 realms. Sure, they might have been similar in role, but for example, the 3 Rogue classes all were quite unique in their presentation. 

    I prefer the variety and uniqueness, makes the games have more character IMO, but seems like many folks don't, they want access to every class/race combination, just two different preferences is all.

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Originally posted by Warzod

    What is with eastern development companies and their love of putting arbitrary restrictions on gender and race regarding class choices? Some race restrictions I will give you, not many shaman in a hyper advanced techological society. However it seems that most of the MMORPGs coming out of the east put them in their 'just because'. I'm a guy and I want to play a healer... sorry all the healers in this universe are women... My girlfriend likes to play meleeNOPE sorry, all the warrior classes are just for guys. OK, how about a mage? All mages are half-man half-platypus hermaphrodites with 3 arms... Thief? All thieves are semi-sentient robots made out of used washing machines...

    It sounds rediculous but if you have played enough eastern ports you know I am not kidding.

     

    I bet it has something to do with budgets & resources.

    Each race/class combo needs specific graphics & animation. If you look at WOW, the *same* item (say a robe for a mage) has DIFFERENT models on different race. Obviously Blizz afford to make as much graphics assets as they want, but probably that is not so for the lesser, smaller Asian companies.

  • strangerdangstrangerdang Member Posts: 233

    I agree with this thread, its the new point and click move for me.  I see it in a game (gender locked classes) and i dont bother with it.

    I was looking at a game yesterday, think it was pirus or something, aside from the required pedophile ready girl child pet, some of the gender locked classes...i couldnt figure out if that was a male of a female....

    Even the masculine melee characters are questionable in a lot of eastern games.

    I understand its a culture thing...they like their men to be as pretty as the ladies or something, but for me, nothing ruines a game more than being forced to prance around in a boyish character, with an emo haircut, half dressed.

    FFS at least give me the OPTION to make a burly, scruffy, lumberjack like, melee, if im to be running around with a weapon the size of a Hyundai.  Give me the option to make an a guy character for any class, and not only that, i dont want to be running around like a pretty boy if you do...what happend to custimization options in the east...why havent they cought up and expanded.

    I got no issues with people who want to play with those types of characters...in fact i like "pretty" when its scary and crazy pretty like in FE and APB..well basically a scruffy nutjob with pink hair and eyeshadow lol..

    It cant be a lack of resources...labor is cheap over there, and by limiting their characters for their home market, their games dont do as well over here...it would be better buisness if they give everyone the option...larger market segment ect..

    But yeah...been looking for a filler mmorpg, thought an eastern f2p would be good, havent gone down that road in years, and to be honest, the eastern gaming industry is right where i left off with it...they made no progress, and im not willing to even give their games a try (yeah i support financially the games i play too).  Decided to go with APB over the 5 eastern mmorpgs i looked at, however not sure i can stay long in a FPS.

    Basically, get your act together korea...before china figures out that outside of the east, players like their character to look like scruffy dirtbags sometimes.  You guys are missing out on money sticking to your guns on lame looking characters and gender locks...given you guys figured out the whole point and click move was doing the same thing, you guys changed...so change this ffs.

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 4,011

    Originally posted by strangerdang

    I agree with this thread, its the new point and click move for me.  I see it in a game (gender locked classes) and i dont bother with it.

     That's kind of a prohibitive attitude in my opinion. Look at the Witch Elf from Warhammer or the Baraka from Tera. It doesn't make sense for them not to be gender-locked, purely from a lore standpoint. What you are saying is that developers shouldn't creat such rich lore, or use some fascinating existing lore for playable characters in the video games?

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  • WarzodWarzod Member UncommonPosts: 488

    Originally posted by Palebane

    Originally posted by strangerdang

    I agree with this thread, its the new point and click move for me.  I see it in a game (gender locked classes) and i dont bother with it.

     That's kind of a prohibitive attitude in my opinion. Look at the Witch Elf from Warhammer or the Baraka from Tera. It doesn't make sense for them not to be gender-locked, purely from a lore standpoint. What you are saying is that developers shouldn't creat such rich lore, or use some fascinating existing lore for playable characters in the video games?

    I don't believe that is what he is asking for at all. I even mentioned in my post that when it is completely appropriate for the lore, alright. But when you simply have the exact same race and all the men have to be this and all the women have to be that. You are setting the entire human race back 100 years. And before anyone gets back on the 'it's an RPG' box may I remind you that online gaming is now a multi-billion dollar worldwide market. Many of the same ideals that we as a people have started to adopt in mediums such as television and film will eventually need to be addressed here. Why does the average female not care for Stalone type action flicks? Because the female leads are always portrayed as squeeling, damsel in distress, half-whits that can only be saved by big strong men. Those ideals are dying. If the eastern developers ever want to see revenue in the west they are going to have to start taking this into consideration.

  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,238

    Class restrictions are a game design choice. Classes are a function of a role being performed through the character of the player. Classes are suppose to give you a unique gameplay experience that should be dedicated towards that classes lore and role. If the designer does a good job, you'd be immersed into that class. One reason to have class restrictions is to help diversity among other classes. Class balance also plays a factor in why a designer may want more restrictions. There are many different reasons why classes have restrictions. If there wasn't any restriction then it would be simply a skill based game. I am for classes and class restriction to help provide diversity.

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Originally posted by Warzod

    What is with eastern development companies and their love of putting arbitrary restrictions on gender and race regarding class choices? Some race restrictions I will give you, not many shaman in a hyper advanced techological society. However it seems that most of the MMORPGs coming out of the east put them in their 'just because'. I'm a guy and I want to play a healer... sorry all the healers in this universe are women... My girlfriend likes to play meleeNOPE sorry, all the warrior classes are just for guys. OK, how about a mage? All mages are half-man half-platypus hermaphrodites with 3 arms... Thief? All thieves are semi-sentient robots made out of used washing machines...

    It sounds rediculous but if you have played enough eastern ports you know I am not kidding.

     

    I've played more than a few that did this.  One recently was Aika.   The game obvously had a decent budget, it runs well, it plays well, and it's even moderately fun if you like quest-grinders.  But, like you said, if you want to play a Priest, you end up looking like this...

     


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  • AIMonsterAIMonster Member UncommonPosts: 2,059

    Originally posted by twodayslate

    Regressive cultual attitudes mixed with modern technology.  Warriors are masculine, nurses are feminine, magic is weeeeird so its users need to reflect that, thieves are inhuman monsters.  I like to picture asian cultural exports as the US was in the 70s - institutionalized sexism and wacky value judgements - with generous portions of abstract art and superstition thrown into the mix.

    Not necessarily.  For instance Vindictus has the warrior/tank type role filled by a female character, while the quick, lithe, assassin type role is filled by a female character (it's usually the other way around).  Yes, we know Asian society is generally more primitive on their views of women and their roles in society, but that's been changing rapidly and I just don't see it in Eastern games.

    I think it has a lot to do with budget restrictions and the way they like storytelling.  They set up games so you are controlling a character within the story's lore rather than making your own.  A lot of this has to do with them not wanting to have to go through the trouble of creating armor models and animations for both male and females.  It gets rid of half the work right there.  They can also generally create better armor models and animations because they don't have the restriction of having to do so for each gender and to match various body types.

    I absolutely hate genderlocking and not being able to create my own unique character and persona though, so I'd be happy to see Eastern developers do away with this outdated view on development.

  • WarzodWarzod Member UncommonPosts: 488

    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    Originally posted by Warzod

    What is with eastern development companies and their love of putting arbitrary restrictions on gender and race regarding class choices? Some race restrictions I will give you, not many shaman in a hyper advanced techological society. However it seems that most of the MMORPGs coming out of the east put them in their 'just because'. I'm a guy and I want to play a healer... sorry all the healers in this universe are women... My girlfriend likes to play meleeNOPE sorry, all the warrior classes are just for guys. OK, how about a mage? All mages are half-man half-platypus hermaphrodites with 3 arms... Thief? All thieves are semi-sentient robots made out of used washing machines...

    It sounds rediculous but if you have played enough eastern ports you know I am not kidding.

     

    I've played more than a few that did this.  One recently was Aika.   The game obvously had a decent budget, it runs well, it plays well, and it's even moderately fun if you like quest-grinders.  But, like you said, if you want to play a Priest, you end up looking like this...

     

    It's funny you mention Aika in particular. It was one of the most recent games I tried where this trend frustrated me and I did want to play a healer. Another one for the bunch in Argo where all healer classes, the paladin and the priest, are both female. I would venture a guess were you to go to you local hospital and ask one of the male nurses if they believe their occupation to be feminine you might get a resounding punch in the mouth. But, alteast you would have a healer there to tend to your wounds.

  • GravargGravarg Member UncommonPosts: 3,424

    it's easier for the devs when everyone looks the same :)  1/2 the coding, same great revenue :)

  • VenDyneVenDyne Member Posts: 51

    If there's no race/gender restrictions, then EVERYONE will play as Elves! XD

    I guess it's the developer's way of adding flavor to the game. Just my opinion though.

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  • helthroshelthros Member UncommonPosts: 1,449

    Think it's been mentioned but it's simply cutting corners. The game will run better, less models to draw up etc if there are less variations of models to go around. It's being lazy really. You see it mainly in these FTP games where cutting corners is to be expected.

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,848

    The OP is really funny because he claims that man cant play female characters and women cant play male characters.

     

    I dont remember anyone ever complaining about the gender limits for the Diablo 2 classes. IIRC it was:

     

    MALE Paladin

    MALE Barbarian

    MALE Necromancer

    MALE Druid (Expansion)

     

    FEMALE Amazon

    FEMALE Sorceress

    FEMALE Assassin (Expansion)

     

    Granted, Diablo 2 was IIRC a true 2D game - meaning the support for individual looks of the character would be technically impossible and making supporting both genders require a double number of EVERYTHING - each and every piece of worn armor.

     

     

    In my opinion, race should "salt" the class choice. Meaning an elven warrior should play a bit differently than a dwarven warrior. So an elf would get different advantages and disadvantages compared to a dwarf. In typical DnD style being more fragile and more dexterous. Maybe even some different racial skills.

    Alternatively you can of course also just give each race their own set of classes, just as long as every class is still available for every race.

    So the humans would get Dark Knight, Swashbuckler, Blood Mage and Necromancer, while the Highelves would get Paladin, Ranger, Elder and Sage, the Darkelves would get Spellblade, Assassin, Demonpriest and Sorcerer, and the Dwarves would get Defender, Scout, Cleric and Runemage.

  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak Member Posts: 640

    i agree, that the reason for this is budget. it simply reduces effort. i dont believe they really care about a better balance amongst the numbers of gender or races. i am against that model and it really disturbs me.

    however, for me it is impossible to play a male in most asian games anyways. the look is so laughable metrosexuell in my eyes. in german we say "Milchbubi". how do you say in english, narrowed milk boy or soft boy?

    so for me, these male models are the the 1st task with any westernization.

    something i could accept, because it adds some realism to the game are meaningful racial skills or gender skills which make it harder to play a dwarf elemental mage or a high-elf necromancer because your starting stats or skills dont fit perfectly. but i remember all the whiners in EQ1, crying loudly about racial handicaps regarding some combinations. even if starting skills dont really matter, as we all know.

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  • fcazaresfcazares Member Posts: 190

    There are males in eastern mmo's? They all look girlie with ladies haircuts in my eyes. Im not sure how you could change any gender biases or cultural attitudes.. we have our own here in the west.

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