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sandbox or its a wow-clone?
190192
Member Posts: 6
hello : )
i've been reading the swtor forum here on mmorpg.com a lot lately and i just have a question about the whole theme park vs sandbox thing.
It seems to me that if a game dont want to be a wow-clone it have to be a sandbox. is this true? and why?.
If i had to make a comparison. It would be that there is only two color of chocolate. white and brown, no matter what kind of brown chocolate your are, your still a brown chocolate and you can never get away from that fact.
Sorry if i am hard to understand. What i'm trying to ask is, are there a way to not be a wow-clone and but still be a theme park game?
i have tried to spell check to the best of my ability. Feel free to correct my grammer.
Comments
SWTOR is essentially WoW:2 The Space Chronicles.
No Sandbox Elements what-so-ever.
Got a Game Idea? Look Here!
Well the devs have now stated swtor is definately going to be a themepark.
But i do disagree about only being 2 types of games.
There are really 3
Themepark EQ-Wow type games
Sandbox = xyson Wurm online Mortal online
Sandpark = UO, Darkfall and a few others
Sandpark to me is where the devs still create alot of the content as in cities quest and what not but the majority of content is player made.
Just saying...
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek
and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
Lets wait for the fan boys to give us a better picture. Now, just becuase I called them fan boys does not mean they are wrong.
Also once a game is theme parked, does it means it is cut off from having any sand box elements? Seems a bit obscure, and you will have a lot of debate on that, on theme park elements vs sand box elements vs different games.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
No, it's not true. As far as being a WoW clone. For some reason if a game is quest based it is automatically a "wow clone" completely ignoring everything else that WoW does or that the other game does.
Other games are quest based as well but are not WoW clones. Having said that SWToR is a theme park game and theme park games, especially when incorporating quests tend to rely upon similar "go run this here, talk to X" or "kill 10 of y" types of quests.
Now there are games that are closer to the WoW "feel" but are not WoW clones. Lord of the Rings online might fall into this catagory simply because the quest system or trainer system is very similair. Though if indeed LOTRO was a true "clone" of WoW then I would have been playing WoW all this time.
As it stands I can't really log into WoW for more than 30 minutes without wanting to do something else whereas I have spent hours in LOTRO. so there must be differences and differences that were pretty hefty.
People tend to call things "wow clones" because they are looking at broad strokes but aren't really looking at finer points.
To put it into a context that I am reasonably well versed, it's like saying the music of "Rush" is a "YES" clone because the musical materials are organized using keys and follow the same/similiar harmonic progressions, same meters, etc.
but the reality is that they are both "tonal pieces" so share the same harmonic language (so music in key signatures falls into this category) and both rock songs but aren't clones of each other at all.
So games like Aion, SWToR, LOTRO, EQ 2, WoW, Rift share the same "harmonic language" but are not really true clones. One can easily look at that lot, however, and immediately see the difference between them and say EVE or UO or Star Wars Galaxies.
Actually, now that I think about it, games like WoW, LOTRO, Rift, etc could all be portrayed on a Venn diagram. They all intersect at common elements but all radiate beyond the intersection in different ways.
oh yes! that will do nicely!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Definately not any game that has player created content has a sandbox element. It's when its grossly weighted on one side or the other that lends one of the 3 names. Take rift or wow they are majority dev made content. while on the other extreme is Wurm online or Xyson that has nearly 100% player made content. Then we have in the middle like uo where all the cities and quest were dev created but you have player housing shops that lean to the sand box side. so they are both sandbox and themepark and thus why i call it a sandpark.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek
and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
I've eluded to this before in other posts. I've always felt that the term "theme park" is mostly used as way of people calling something a WoW clone without ticking off all the WoW fan boys, or making you look like you're just a WoW hater.
Because in all honesty so many games have themepark elements and what some people like to call "Rides" I like to call content. Dungeons, events, raids, named monsters, storyline quests. Personally I hate leveling quests though!
To me that stuff is all fine and great, along the lines of necessary for me. The themepark elements I don't like are the corralling elements like over the top quest logs with step by step instructions, the ! and ? stuff. Feeling like I constantly have this carrot in front of me, leading me along my way without ever really having to wonder what to do next.
As far as "Sandbox" goes at times this implies that the game could be devoid of what I like to call content or it's created by the player. That aside it does imply that there will be tons of what I like to call "extras".
Extras are the fun things I love to have but never my main focus. Like player built housing, cities, possibly involved crafting, being able to change the environment in some way shape or form.
The biggest problem with these terms though?
The fact that hardly anyone can agree on what they mean. I'm sure there are some people that will completely disagree with what I said above, and that's ok I'm still not even convinced I'm right. These are just the things that pop into my head when the terms are used.
It's not just about differentiating between sandbox and theme park. Among all "theme park" MMOs there can be many characteristics that vary. That's the mistake most people make when tossing out the broad category terms "sandbox" and "theme park;" they ignore dozens of other features within those categories that may differ.
I'm the same way, I can't login WoW anymore and have anything good to do except run a dungeon or raid, and no I dislike the arena/pvp so never bothered with it after season 3.
I feel arena/pvp has ruined WoW's classes and made playing them in a raid less fun and effective.(just my opinion)
On the other hand I can login games like Vanguard, EQ/EQ2, LotRO and Fallen Earth and play for hours and enjoy them.
Never once run a dungeon or raid... yet still have lots fun stuff to do and great worlds to explore.
And how EQ2 allows you to mentor lower levels or drop your level down to match the content .... well the game just never gets old and you never out level anything and can always help your friends and guildmates out.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
The problem with themepark games is there is nothing to do in them once the content is done.
You end up chasing gear/running dungeons/raiding with nothing else to do.
Sorry but I want more out of my mmo now and will not play an mmo that just does this, WoW done beat this horse to death and sorry but Rift is more the same, just with fresh paint and new set wheels and some heads/cam added in to bump the horsepower.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
I agree about Rift. Its more of the same.
And I also agree that endgame needs to be changed from the way it is. Though I dont want a 100% sandbox game. Id like to see a good hybrid of the two emerge. When i hear the sandbox camp start going on about all the stuff they want in a sandbox game, the wishlist that emerges always leaves me wondering how much of it would actually be fun.
I guess thats what i really want in my MMO...fun. Whatever means justify that end are fine with me.
I think the problem there is adopting the idea that one can't find things to do in a theme park game outside of the scripted content that the devs provide.
I will very much agree that a game with sandbox elements can keep players engaged far longer as long as they find the world/game engaging.
But to the point, I have gone back to Goblin Town in LOTRO with my max level character just to "fight my way through".
I'm given a town of goblins and I am a warrior. What more do I need? Since most are gray to me my "rule" is that I attack and fight everythign. you'd be surprised how thorny it can get in the lower levels. And there are no rewards other than the good time I'm having. I do this in moria as well as Mirkwood. Of course I've been playing for quite a bit so I feel no need to log into LOTRO regularly and have turned my attention back to Aion.
In any case, I've seen players role play in Moria and they were having a blast.
To me, making my way through a busy area, maybe with some elites is challenge and game play for an evening.
It's as if once they are plunked down into the themepark they can only think of the rides and nothing else.
One can make one's own entertainment if one has the mind to do so. Quite frankly I am of the mind that in the end I am responsible for my own good time. And of course, if I lose interest then I do something else. That's fine.
Again, Themepark games can stifle quite a bit but that doesn't mean that players can't take their own entertainment into their own hands.
So regardless of whether a game is sandbox/themepark one needs to be responsible for their entertainment. As a friend of mine said of SWG "it was like a second job I wasn't getting paid for". Then he tried EQ when it came out and finally had fun.
So a Sandbox game isn't a guarantee of fun. It's just a different forum for a player to find that fun.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
A game doesn't have to be a sandbox to not be a WoW-clone. Non-sandbox titles like FFXIV, Vindictus, DDO, DAoC, Everquest, Lineage II, at-launch EQ2, and Mabinogi are just a few games that have little in common with WoW.
You are right of course, there are other possibilities. You can even make a game with themeparked leveling and sandbox endgame if you like too.
But the sad thing is that almost all MMOs are close to copy and paste from earlier games. The themepark games are more or less copies of Meridian 59 and Everquest while most sandboxes takes after UO instead. A very selective few like Eve do their own thing but the reason most people think that a game is a sandbox or Wow clone(really EQ/M59 clone if you ask older players) is that so few MMO developers have much imagination at all.
It is easier to just steal the game mechanics straight off instead of creating new. Almost all the mechanics you see in Rift (latest game that released a few months ago) were in Meridian 59 when it released early 1996. The mechanics do work, that is why everyone uses them but it is still pretty sad.
Most players think that if a new game feels just like Wow when you play it the game is a Wow clone. That isn't entirely true of course but it isn't that far fetched. But there have been several talented studios that started on MMOs and try to rethink part of the mechanics and they will start to launch sooner or later.
M59 and UO were both amazing game for their time, and even new games like Rift have their good sides, but a lot of MMO players are getting tired of the same old after more than 15 years. It is not that strange and that is what the complaining is about.
I just don't understand you people and WoW cloning....
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i just wait, until this relatively new term "sandpark" becomes more usual. latest if ArchAge should become a succes, everybody will call their game a sandpark, trust me. even if thats just marketing again, they are not very wrong. lots of games have theme-park elements and sandbox elements. the huge difference is. where they are coming from and how they started with design.
World 1: i would prefer starting with an open virtual persistent word with mobs mostly steered with high AI and dynamic mechanisms. then put alot of tools inside you can use. also quests are a nice tool in order to provide further entertainment, adventuring and an approach to the lore. but they should never be linear, so that you just run from quest-hub to questhub until maxlevel. and questing should be not the most efficient way of levelling or skilling. there is not this one main-questline, even if diversified with a lot of decisions and alternative pathes. a lot of quests are hidden, you have to search for them. and even then, its hard to distinguish, if this NPC is now giving me a quest, or just information, which might lead to a quest later on. i also can imagine a world without quests fully designed with very clever dynamic events instead. also a player driven economy would be necessary for my perfect game and territorial pvp but not everywhere. and of course housing and terraforming. aah, ... and of course huge gigantic open persistent dungeons. nothing against instanced dungeons, but thats not my way.
World 2: vice versa you can built up a theme park with a clear path of quests from 1-60 telling you the story of this world and your hero. this is more like playing the storybook of a movie than living in a virtual world. now you can implement a lot of sandbox tools beside your quest-part. heck you can implement nearly every tool a sandbox has including a player driven economy, if you just adjust quest-rewards accordingly. you even can implement terraforming and extended housing in this game.
BUT, even if these 2 games have both the full right to call themselves a sandpark, they are fully different.
even if i am a sandbox-fan, i would also buy world 2 and give it a chance. but my approach would be, to play it like a sandbox. so i would login and avoid every damn quest from 1-60 with passion. perhaps i would try some class quests or other stand-alone questlines. but i would never touch this unholy main-questline. thats my testcase. now login in RIFT and avoid any questgiver from lvl 1 on. you would even not get your 1st skill and you could never leave the tutorial zone at all. thats my problem with theme-parks: no freedom!
from my definition, a sandpark would give the freedom to avoid any quests, without bigger disadvantages. vice versa a sandpark would give me the chance to focus on quests and avoiding all other tools ingame. if thats not the case, its even a sandbox or a theme-park. i know that this definition is not perfect, but show me a better one.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
No.
Be aware of the dangers of labels and catagorizations, especially in today's sound-bite oriented world. These things often hide more facts than they reveal.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
Like other folks mentioned, there were many theme park styled MMO's that had game mechanics not currently used by WOW and its many "cousins". (for you folks who hate the clone term)
In terms of chocolate, think of it like this, your brown chocolate (theme park style games) can come in many flavors, textures and consistencies. Hershey bars taste quite a bit different than a Kit-Kat, Milkyway, M&M's or Snickersbars. What if every candybar ever made contained peanuts and caramel, it would get boring fast.
Same with MMO's, the trouble is today's modern themeparks share too many of the same features while eschewing some features that were popular in the past, but are seldom used today. (I.e. Housing)
I have no idea what TOR is really going to be like, the story driven content should be good fun, I just hope when I get to max level (is there a max level?) I don't find myself being told to re-run the "Deathstar" Dungeon 20 or 30 times in a 10 man raid to get my Purple light saber. (only to be replaced by the Tier 2 Purple light saber in the next dungeon, "Battle the Emperor")
Yes, I know, wrong era but you get my point.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As I recall, people call other MMORPGs WoW clones because they tend to blindly compare things to WoW. As one poster said, those kinds of people do not see the finer points of other games.
For example, some games like Forsaken World are more PvE based, while others like Guild Wars and Aika Global are more inclined towards PvP.
It's kinda like... "Oh, it has a questline and mounts! WoW clone!" which kinda reminds me of "Toyota? It has 4 wheels and Windows! It's a FORD Clone!"
So yeah. MMORPGs don't need to be sandbox to not be labeled WoW clones. Those people who call EVERYTHING "WoW Clones" are just... well... I won't say it since I don't want to sound mean.
Sturgeon's Law: "90% of everything is crud."
It would help if in your examples you'd actually reference MMOs' that people consider to be WOW clones (none of your examples apply). Now, if we're talking Rift, AOC, and some others, the label aptly applies.
As stated by others, all WOW clones are theme parks, but not all themeparks are WOW clones.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What he said. This game is far from sandbox, with the voice over concept it will be more similar to a theme park style console game at times.
I am sorry to say this, but the OP is correct.
Theme Park, and WoW clone mean the same thing.
WoW clone is only used to insult or compare directly to WoW. Themepark is used to talk about the opposite end of the Sandbox design. Which is basically the same thing as WoW clone.
*Class System is a Part of Theme Park
if game has classes (X,Y,Z) which are similar to WoW classes, its a WoW Clone.
*Levels is a part of TP.
if game has same number of lvls as WoW, then its a WoW clone.
*Factions are a part of TP.
if game has 2 factions, its a WoW clone.
see how this work now?-----^
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I hope this is sarcasm? It's quite silly.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
I think you need to watch out for overgeneralising. Saying every MMO with quests is a WoW clone, doesnt have any meaningfull meaning. For example, EQ2 and WoW are different enough for someone to like EQ2, but not like WoW or the other way around. Still, there are a lot of ppl on these forums that call EQ2 a WoW-clone. This kind of generalising renders the word WoW-clone useless (not to mention completely changes the meaning of the word clone).
Lot of players look at how features are fleshed out in a MMO. And not just if it has a certain feature or not. For the same reason that having quests in a MMO, doesnt rule out what most call 'sandbox elements'. These are just features that can coexcist in the same game.
So if its quests that puts you off a MMO, you are basically ignoring the rest of the game. Personally that doesnt have to matter of course, if you think that quests are the one most important thing you want to avoid in a MMO. But to assume that all quest based MMO's are therefore the same is simply not true. Thats overgeneralising due to your hate for quests. You also ignore the obvious fact that players that love questing, dont automatically love all quest based MMO's. This alone already shows that there are important differences within that genre.
So stop the ignorant overgeneralising please!
Yes there are quite a couple of people who are now set on "themepark = its a WoW clone". As stupid as that is. Even games which are clearly very different, like Vanguard or SWTOR, are getting called "WoW clone" for no good reason.
Unsurprisingly, these people complain that the market is "dominated by WoW clones". Well, yeah. Themepark MMOs have always been more successful than sandbox MMOs. People in general simply prefer getting a story told to having to perform mundane tasks to build a world of their own.
With this attitude, of course they arent going to be happy with the MMO market again, ever. Even 30 years from now, they will still be able to complain that "everywhere are WoW clones". So I would like to declare them a lost cause and just ignore their bitching around.
NOW ?
They never said anything else.