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General: This is Endgame, My Friend



  • mmocrusadermmocrusader Member Posts: 7


    Where did MMORPG design go so wrong?

  • JILogan11JILogan11 Member Posts: 18

    Excellent article. That sums up pretty much everything I would say, especially about the gear/ time over skill.

    Here's an idea. How about lvl cap meaning that you can start a guild with a set number of players of specific lvls and a defined hierarchical structure. Then there can be meaningful PvP guild wars to take over parts of the map without interfering with solo/small group content. If some clever person could figure out how to manage the lvls of the individual characters and the hierarchical structure of the guild it could work like a real military where a lvl up means a promotion and being moved to a different guild/unit.

    sorry, got carried away.

  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,759

    About WoW I am in the same boat, the best parts of WoW is (or was) levelling up, hence the eight max levels I have. Don't get me wrong I have had a top char for years, done every raid target. I hunted the million badges and points, and when you get into the rush it is slightly rewarding - But you need to be able to switch off reasoning, because when you start to think about it, it is boring and only requires patience. You start doing calculations about how many hours/days/raids/runs/dailys you have to do to get to the next step/gear/whatever, and this hunt shadows the fact that its become a techincal whack a mole game.


    I have several lvl max chars I dropped at the instant I hit max and made them mules. I know quite a few people who regularily level a char to max and delete it for a re-go. For me the levelling part of WoW was a real mmorpg, and the endgame is all about refining your char with gear and calculations of NUMBERS and there is no adventure build into that.


    How I see WoW is a defined grind with little room for surprices, and while comming back from work tiered the streamlines no-brainer is sometimes just what you need. Your rewards (gear) are pretty much 1 to 1 with the efford (time) you put in, so player skill is all about reading the thoerycrafts and click on the "best gear, rotation, talent list" and you are off to tap your keyboard in rapic succession.


    Especially the point/badge farming thing is a bad way to get gear in a WoW, it reduces the game to a shop where you pay with life-hours to get gear (which will most likely be obsolete after 3 months as it goes at the moment with WoW). WoW was once a mmorpg, but I can't say what it is now.. single player action game in a shared world ? And that is some of the things that makes us love and hate WoW and all its unfluences. WotLK was annoying with the badge runs and few raiding instance but I think I was just so much into the grind my mind had swtiched off, then Cataclysm came and thank you for that Blizzard, you made me see clearly what I don't want in a so-called mmorpg.

  • uncletomauncletoma Member UncommonPosts: 159

    Originally posted by elocke

    Isn't DaoC mostly about PVP though?  I personally don't consider that endgame as most games, like WoW, you can do it as you level and it doesn't change through the levels except by giving you different objectives or new maps.  Not saying there aren't people who only PVP at endgame, just that most MMORPGs are either built with a PVP endgame in mind or a PVE endgame in mind.  Like comparing Darkfall to WoW.  Both have PVE, both have PVP but you and I both know which gamer caters to who.

    So DaoC would be in the Darkfall column while this article talks more about PVE endgame in games like WoW and Lotro.


    DAoC ism't a pure PvP (well know as PvP FFA), it's the most important and impressive RvR (Realm vs Realm) game yet. And DAoC has a PvE component (dungeons and RvR dungeons: dragon raid and so on), so isn't like Darkfall. Yes, it's different from WoW, LOTRO, EQ and other pure PvE MMO, but i think that isn't right to argue about endgame only for a kind of games (only PvE and themepark).

    Endgame is a very important aspect of this genre, but we must consider all games (PvP, PvE, RvR, FvF, themepark, sandbox, F2P, P2P, B2P... and so on) for a right and complete article. Otherwise can be a castrated aricle. And, on PvE games, for me, endgame is always the same: do a dungeon, grab all things, do next dungeon, grab all things, do dungeon number 3, grab all things... a little boring, a waste of time. And you must have a lot of time in order to do dungeons... with RvR or other PvP aspects (in Global Agenda, is, for example, called AvA: Agency vs Agency) you can play when you can, for time that you like.

  • setilightsetilight Member Posts: 15

    I don't understand that so many people stand against a concept that is a necessity of progress through "leveling". Any game that has progression will have more players that have reached the cap for the said progression over time - after sufficient time the vast majority of the population will have a character that is maxed out! So it makes complete sense to stack content on the "end game", to make your game's life longer and so people have others to experience the content with. The journey to the level cap makes sense to make players familiar to their abilities, to the game mechanics, but for me it actually makes more sense to make that journey shorter (eg. Guild Wars leveling). If you look at WAR, which has huge amounts of progress zones, you'll see that all that content was a waste, because after the initial flow of players went though there it became deserted.


    I played a lot of MMOs over time and I don't actually remember any interesting one that didn't have some kind if end game. UO was mentioned here as having no end game, but many bosses and events were added to the game that required a "raid group" to handle; the only difference to WoW raids was that there were no instances and you'll be contantly ganked by players while fighting the mobs.

  • IluwenIluwen Member Posts: 4

    So you don´t like raiding and thats why a game that has a lot of it, sucks. I agree that WoW has become too much "raid or die" and there is little else to do. But I think its wrong to just dimiss raiding as a fun experience just because you personally don´t like it.

    I personally don´t like leveling alts, because, for me, it is doing the same thing over and over again. Whereas raiding with good friends and overcoming challenges together is where I get the most fun out of. Approaching, learning and finally beating a difficult boss in order to get to the next one is a journey, too. But all that doesn´t mean I have to dismiss every player that enjoys leveling alts as someone who doesn´t get it.

  • SvartlackadSvartlackad Member Posts: 54

    Endgame is becoming dull as far as I'm concerned. I love killing hard mobs, don't get me wrong, when we first brought down Cho'gall, it was magical. But when that doesn't happen I want something else do do then wait for the next content and repeatedly do the same stuffs over and over. I want to feel I belong and that I'm mighty, if you get what I mean. As much as a group is fun to do once in a while, I'd like to be able to do stuff on my own that I later can brag about to my friends. I want to feel a Sense of Purpose.

  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,759

    Originally posted by Iluwen

    So you don´t like raiding and thats why a game that has a lot of it, sucks. I agree that WoW has become too much "raid or die" and there is little else to do. But I think its wrong to just dimiss raiding as a fun experience just because you personally don´t like it.

    I personally don´t like leveling alts, because, for me, it is doing the same thing over and over again. Whereas raiding with good friends and overcoming challenges together is where I get the most fun out of. Approaching, learning and finally beating a difficult boss in order to get to the next one is a journey, too. But all that doesn´t mean I have to dismiss every player that enjoys leveling alts as someone who doesn´t get it.

    I like raiding too and the little raiding there is in wow can be quite fun, although the style of rapid pressing keys while beeing stressed with lightshows is not my preferred. I hate the shop approach where you can point at an item and pay with points from instances or pvp (read life-hours), it ruins all the excitement that random drops has. Dailys are such a clear timesink it is silly. The fact that the endgame in WoW is so basic, and the levelling which alot of people see as the real game in a mmorpg, is ridiculously fast in WoW these days, makes these opinions.

    It is also a matter or rpg play vs action gaming, WoW was once a mmorpg but has changed since then, and players still think WoW is a roleplaying game, or hope it will be again. For roleplayers the game experience is the adventuring and thereby also levelling in a xp based game, and the pace which you level in WoW is so far from that. For someone who enjoys the journey and is not into raiding or heavy grinding, I can see how WoW has taken a wrong turn. But to be honest I really hate the word endgame, although the concept is not new in mmorpgs; WoW has just always been able to be so in your face and obvious.

  • firefly2003firefly2003 Member UncommonPosts: 2,527

    Well SWG did give us other things to do sides Raid and leveling a character, housing , collections, true crafting, space, creating your own quests, world pvp,  putting on a community event, etc. Every time we try to bring one of these non-combat-activity ideas to the table for a new game the roaches come out and try and shoot it down. Believe it or not other people out there want something to do besides raid and level a character, I'm one of them and I know there are more than enough people out there who feel the same way about where MMOs are going. Luckily, since I quit playing "the new thing' I dwelve into the past library of MMOs that truly standout and give me something else to do besides pew pew or cast magic SWG-EVE.

    (PS btw if anyone is playing SWG atm and not sure you want to stay give me your items ;) name's Barsal on Chilly)

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,498

    Originally posted by Elikal

    I SO agree with the article!

    "For one thing, I’m totally and utterly not item-motivated, so going into dungeons to get shinies doesn’t fire me up. Planning to do dungeons so I can get the gear to do more dungeons – meh. Not my thing."

    This. I feel exactly like that too. And as I scan through this thread, it seems a lot of people dislike gear grind and raids as endgame. I recall I made a poll here and a vast majority of people voted, they were NOT interesting in endgame whatsoever. So if this is, I wonder why every MMO copies this terrible WOW formula?

    I just today hit lv 50 with Rift (which I continued because 2 friends joined), but now? It's all gear grind in instance dungeons or gear grind in PVP arenas. Both things I don't like very much. Why is there today such an emphasis on endgame? Esp. when apparently it is not very popular actually.

    When I am interested in is: getting new levels & new powers, getting into new zones to explore, furthering story. Gear for me is just a means to an goal, not a goal I am interested in by itself. I am usually not a WOW basher, but in this case WOW really introduced a terrible thing to MMOs with the endless grind endgame. I so loathe that.

    Well first off people who build and fund MMORPG's rarely read these forums I'm guessing.

    2nd, even if they did, as is so often pointed out, we are likely to not be a very good cross sectional representation of the greater gaming market that companies are trying to reach.

    Our voices are loud in here my friends, but in the real world we are sorely out-numbered.

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,934

    Originally posted by mrcalhou

    One reason I like Eve is that end-game happens pretty much as soon as the tutorial is over.


    That's what my take on these games is. All one's levels, gear, etc. should not be an end in and of itself but parts of your toolbox to actually play the game.

    As far as I'm concerned, if any game "starts at level cap" then it has failed in my book and everything that came before should be scrapped.

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer:

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    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special."

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. 
  • divmaxdivmax Member Posts: 106

    Isabella, I couldn't agree more. Every line of this article could have come out of my own rants. If I had a soapbox and someone recording me over the last 4 years, this is exactly what you would have heard me repeating to all my friends. 


    I thought I had found a game which professed not to focus on endgame - thats how they lured us into LOTRO in 2007. But then Turbine sold us a dud and started slowly focusing on raids and gear-acquisition regardless of their earlier promises. The community followed naturally - well on my server anyway. 


    I sincerely hope that SWTOR, GW2 do not repeat this particular game design but based on what the developers have said so far, I predict that SWTOR will follow the "endgame is everything" pattern after the first year. Though I suspect GW2 will not. 


    I yearn for a game which keeps me occupied with the journey of levelling, the exploration and the immersion  - like LOTRO was in its first year and a half. I've done the raiding thing. Its monotonous, its grueling and it lacks a fundamental aspect which I enjoy in games - story and immersion. Now I know that most games are pretty light on that already. But I take what I can get.


    And frankly, redoing the same dungeon for the 10th time, in order to get me the shoulder guards (or whatever) I am missing from some uber armour set which everyone assures me I need, doesn't even hold a candle to the most feeble of "kill 10 wolves to save this village" quest, in terms of story and immersion. And why do I need the armour? To do the next dungeon of course! Or even better, to post my character setup on the forums and brag.


    Sorry for the rant, but as you can tell - this topic really grinds my gears.

  • divmaxdivmax Member Posts: 106

    Originally posted by Dusntmatter

    Originally posted by sinjin

    OP you are actually very wrong.  SWG had Endgame, DAoC had endgame and so did EQ.  You better go read up and we used that term then as well.  I remember we would raid the Corvette or Death Watch Bunker... I can go on all day but I think you are just too much a rookie to the MMO genre so you made this assumption on your own without asking true old school vets from all of these games.  I have played em all and don't know of any without some form of endgame.  I have used that term since DAoC...


    Whether or not her examples are valid is irrelevant, her overall point is still very valid and right on target.


    Don't feed the troll. The poster rails against Isabella's lack of research but appears to be ignorant of her MMO experience and thus reveals his own lack of research. Pot meet kettle.

  • divmaxdivmax Member Posts: 106

    Originally posted by sanicek

    I can't believe so many people are in blind agreement. If you don't like end game and dungeons do not interest you, why do you even play (Edit:) theme-park MMOs? From PVE perspective, dungeons and in particular engame raids are THE concepts around which MMOs revolve. Questing is essentially a single player non challenging gameplay. Why would I want to do that in an MMO, where the storytelling is super-boring and any outcomes irrelevant?


    It is very much your opinion that the quests are "super-boring". And if you are a WoW player then perhaps that is a valid position to take. Because from my experience, I concur, the questing in WoW was definitely sub-par. As you can see however from this thread, there is a section of MMO-playerdom which enjoys the questing, the exploration and other non-combat pursuits such as crafting.


    Not to mention that many do indeed find parts of the solo combat experience challenging and equally enjoy playing through it as a social experience with friends, without the end goal needing to be GEAR as it is in raids. Just a fun relaxing experience is, sometimes, what one desires. And then there should be some challenging content also. 


    But to focus entirely on raids would to be alienate a section of the MMO playerbase. Now if the business folk at a developer decide that they are targeting a particular niche, then that is fine and good business practice, and good product focus. But right now, all the recent AAA titles seem to be servicing either the raiders or the pvp'ers and really only making a token effort at pleasing the pve'ers. 


    Also, you say that "any outcomes [are] irrelevant". Well, I fail to see how repeatedly raiding the same dungeons is any more relevant than saving a virtual village from wolves. They are both normally immersive the first time you play through the experiences. They can both be social activities. They can both be atmospheric and keep one on the edge of ones seat, if the game has been designed properly. They impact the game world equally. ie. zero impact actually.

  • saniceksanicek Member UncommonPosts: 368

    Originally posted by divmax


    Also, you say that "any outcomes [are] irrelevant". Well, I fail to see how repeatedly raiding the same dungeons is any more relevant than saving a virtual village from wolves. They are both normally immersive the first time you play through the experiences. They can both be social activities. They can both be atmospheric and keep one on the edge of ones seat, if the game has been designed properly. They impact the game world equally. ie. zero impact actually.

    It's not relevant at all, as you say. You don't raid to have impact on the world, you raid for the gameplay experience. Why do you think people playing normal multiplayer games play for? Building up your stuff, eternally progressing, "investing" into the game are things that have zero point in any linear level based MMO. The persistent world itself is not really that important in these games tbh, trying to approach with sandbox values doesn't make sense, it is not possible to combine the opposing elements.

    Thus the gameplay itself should be the reason I play this game, same as it is when playing Counterstrike, StarCraft or whatever are the equivalents kids play nowadays. And as I said, questing gameplay is far far far far far superior in single player RPGs for obvious reasons. On the other hand, there are basically no alternatives for cooperative PVE gameplay of WOW (with a couple of exceptions like the old school Bioware RPGs, it isn't the same cup of tea tho). The experience of coordinated cooperative gameplay in dungeons and raids is what is unique in linear theme-park MMOs and in particular WOW.


    I get the feeling this thread consists half of sandbox enthusiasts, that want to invest in the game and half of solo questers that want to... I don't really know what they want, I guess quest forever, which clearly isn't possible in a game with finite amount of content as sooner or later you reach the end of the road.

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  • jayartejayarte Member UncommonPosts: 450

    Well, thank goodness Isabella's able to express so fluently my own thoughts on so many aspects of playing mmo's today because I don't seem able to motivate myself to post on these topics any more.


    I can't agree more with your thoughts on the bane of end-game for players who like to explore, socialise, maybe throw in a little roleplay and so on.  I, too, am disinterested in raiding to get equipment to do more raiding to get equipment to ...


    I do actually enjoy the odd dungeon with a good group ; I love the feeling of cameraderie when the teamwork is right, and the laughter when it fails, but I certainly don't enjoy doing a dungeon in order to get particular loot.  meh


    I seem to remember that GW2 is supposed to bring as a game which is not about levelling for its own sake, nor about any end-game, but is aiming to be enjoyable whenever we log in no matter how long or short a time we have to play, or what we plan to do with that time.  Like Isabella, I'm hoping that one of the games currently (hopefully) nearing release will solve some of these problems.  If not, I might just have to give up.

  • seabeastseabeast Member Posts: 748

    And I thought I was the only one who left WoW due to no end-game. Really, I still remember standing there at cap thinking. Now, where is "all that game" that I rushed to get to?

  • phil_jamesphil_james EverQuest II ReporterMember Posts: 32

    I have to admit that I enjoyed the endgame content in Lich King.  However, it was the first time I had gotten a character to level cap in any game - I play a lot of games and a lot of alts.  The dungeon grind was new and exciting.

    Since the launch of Cataclysm, I have my main character stalled at level 83.  I just don't want to do the whole thing again.  Like you I want something else to do with my character.  I'm not a doomsayer by any means, but I do wonder how many expansions games can put out that cater for the raid crowd before that crowd thins out drastically.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Member UncommonPosts: 1,920

    Developers could even make the engame grind something I'd do more often if some of the shinies that dropped customized or decorated my house or advanced my intricate, non-combat related side jobs.  So bored with running instances for gear to run more instances, and same goes for grinding out pvp gear to fight yet more geared pvpers.


    It's really stale and boring and people have been complaining about it in various ways for years.   


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  • ormstungaormstunga Member Posts: 736

    What exactly dropped in SWG corvette and DWB?

    I played SWG for a long time and I never went to any of them, yet I wasnt lacking in any way that I can remember...

  • cyress8cyress8 Member Posts: 832

    Originally posted by ormstunga
    What exactly dropped in SWG corvette and DWB?I played SWG for a long time and I never went to any of them, yet I wasn't lacking in any way that I can remember...
    Mando armor and jetpacks are from DWB. I remember you had to fight your way down to get to a forge to create the stuff. However, on the corvette, I truly dont remember what dropped there. (I even ran it multiple times, just cannot remember.)


  • GolelornGolelorn Member RarePosts: 1,395

    Yep. The only end game I see myself playing is PvP ala DAoC. No other end game has interested me. Sad, that we still don't have a game like DAoC, but millions like WoW.

  • RakujiRakuji Member UncommonPosts: 144

    WoW ruined mmo's period. Thank you blizzard for making every game out there Easy Mode now. Because of you...there will never be a game where fear is a factor. And when I say fear those of you that made the long journy in Everquest know what I'm talking about. Think to yourself, Do you remember the first time you got blinded in EQ? Ya, I do...and I said WTF? Did my moniter just die? Then it wears off and you like oh crap i just got agro'd by 2 other mobs and the fear of running hoping you don't die because the journy back to your corpse will be even more dangerous then getting to your camp spot. So again, I applaud Blizzard for ruining the MMO genre. Thank you blizzard for Easy Mode, Thank you for that I win button. Thank you for the challengeless grind.....

    I could go on and on..sorry everyone I just hate WoW lol.

    Kick to the Face.

  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,784


    I agree with the article 100% and then some. And, doing just alts once you reach that proverbial endgame only goes so far as well. PvP in most (come to think of it ALL) MMO's at so-called endgame is pretty much pointless as well. Herein lies the biggest reason for game companies to start to explore a more sandbox/themepark approach. Sandbox in that the world around players can change and be changed by players actions. Themepark in that there is a lot of content based upon a sort of background story. Along with that, deminish the requirement to gain levels with with your xp. Do away with "leveling" altogether. I doubt any of this will ever happen but at least others are beginning to see that "endgame" is not what it is cracke up to be.

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 CommonPosts: 6,690

    It is about the journey not endgame. Endgame is so overrated just for the simple fact so many people make alts all the time. A perfect example is vanilla FFXI. The journey in that game was pretty great and your end game really was to beat Maat. Thats it. The game is so totally about reaching the end with your online pals instead of rushing to the end just for that raid content. 

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