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General: This is Endgame, My Friend

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  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    *snip*

    No matter how much effort and time you sink into getting the best gear for your character in WoW today, it's pretty much gueranteed that next major content patch when the next tier of raid is released, most of that same gear will be ridiculously easy to obtain, and a tier after that will be completely useless.

     

    The dreaded gear nerf.  Also on expansion pack releases.  I thought it was exceptionally bad with CATA... into a new zone with a fully epic toon and could barely even handle mobs that should have been fairly easy.  Throw them all away and buy AH greens.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • saniceksanicek Member UncommonPosts: 368

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by sanicek


    Originally posted by Garvon3


     

    Ever heard of a game called Dark Age of Camelot?

    You mean the game with end game consisting of RVR PVP?

    The point was that it wasn't a sandbox game nor was it so grindy that "no one ever reached the level cap". And no, the end game consisted of crafting, raiding, RvR, or collecting. It was a well made MMO that actually balanced different play styles into of being a one trick pony forcing the devs to desperately raise the level cap and churn out new "content" like most WoW clones. It's hard to believe in this day and age, I know.

    But it had an end-game different from the (intended) leveling process, correct? It may have been different than WOWs raiding or small team PVP, but I never said it's the only way. But the issue is about general end game phase which I believe can be clearly identified in DAoC.

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  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980

    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    *snip*

    No matter how much effort and time you sink into getting the best gear for your character in WoW today, it's pretty much gueranteed that next major content patch when the next tier of raid is released, most of that same gear will be ridiculously easy to obtain, and a tier after that will be completely useless.

     

    The dreaded gear nerf.  Also on expansion pack releases.  I thought it was exceptionally bad with CATA... into a new zone with a fully epic toon and could barely even handle mobs that should have been fairly easy.  Throw them all away and buy AH greens.

    Exactly.

    To me it pretty much became a question of "what's the point?"

    A static unchanging world where anything I do has zero impact, because everything is phased, instanced, or resets 5 minutes after I do it. Any progression spent countless hours obtaining in either level or gear is quickly trivialized and obtainable with a fraction of the effort every time an expansion or content patch hits.

    This is why endgame is a terrible design concept. When you make it so only the top matters, it becomes self defeating because every time you bump the top up, what used to be the top suddenly becomes irrelevant... so why even bother busting your ass trying to get to the top, when you'll be exactly where you were in a few months time?

  • YamotaYamota Member UncommonPosts: 6,593

    Endgame is another MMORPG oxymoron therms that WoW made common. In MMORPGs you are supposed to live in the world and endgame would be the deletion of your character, which is a bad thing.

    But with WoW endgame became what everyone sought for and leveling was just a path to get there. Hence why we got all these junk, super casual games where they make the leveling process as quick as possible so you can reach the mythical end game.

    It is sad what this genre has come to...

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member Posts: 3,138

    No, Isabelle, you're not alone. We've been kicking and screaming, (and getting warned and banned image ) on these and other forums for years about this topic. Game companies, the few that read these type forums, either 1) don't care or 2) anyone who gets that concept of journey not destination is in upper management.

     

    I think its a mixture of both. Those guys/gals that played table-top RPGs before circa 1997 understood. That's why you saw what you saw in AC and UO. They tried to build "worlds" and not just games that you could get to the end fast and "win". Those people from back then, I'm afraid, are in the upper eschelons of companies now and don't have as much, if any, creative input. THey have to focus on bottom lines now instead of the bottom of a dungeon.

     

    So now we have people in position (creatively) who grew up getting everything "fast" and "accessible" and who come from an environment where everyone gets a trophy for participating. Most have probably never experienced a true TPK (Total Party Kill) where the only answer was "Sorry, you failed, role another character".

     

    Which is another point. I think many of us older (and certainly a few younger) gamers understood and accepted that heroes could/can die. That's not something engrained in many of the younger gamers IMHO. "Heroes always win, they always save the day and my character is a hero because the game box tells me so". *shrugs*

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  • vazzarothvazzaroth Member Posts: 111


    Originally posted by Khalathwyr
    No, Isabelle, you're not alone. We've been kicking and screaming, (and getting warned and banned  ) on these and other forums for years about this topic. Game companies, the few that read these type forums, either 1) don't care or 2) anyone who gets that concept of journey not destination is in upper management.
     
    I think its a mixture of both. Those guys/gals that played table-top RPGs before circa 1997 understood. That's why you saw what you saw in AC and UO. They tried to build "worlds" and not just games that you could get to the end fast and "win". Those people from back then, I'm afraid, are in the upper eschelons of companies now and don't have as much, if any, creative input. THey have to focus on bottom lines now instead of the bottom of a dungeon.
     
    So now we have people in position (creatively) who grew up getting everything "fast" and "accessible" and who come from an environment where everyone gets a trophy for participating. Most have probably never experienced a true TPK (Total Party Kill) where the only answer was "Sorry, you failed, role another character".
     
    Which is another point. I think many of us older (and certainly a few younger) gamers understood and accepted that heroes could/can die. That's not something engrained in many of the younger gamers IMHO. "Heroes always win, they always save the day and my character is a hero because the game box tells me so". *shrugs*


    I am glad someone else sees the decline of proper Tabletop RPG designs in games these days...
    I feel like the RPG (MMO Or otherwise) is slowly transforming into a horrible, horrible, bland creature. All the great things about RPGs are being lost. For one: Roleplaying. So many games are singular-tracked linear movement from one story point to the next. Even games that are open world usually have restrictive class options. I still play DDO occasionally if nothing else because it's one of the few games where you can really make a custom character due to the class-combining of 3.0/.5.

    I'm only 21, but I've played a ton of great old school RPGs and Tabletop, and I hope this trend of "Mainstream" RPGs dies a quick death...

    Edit: And Death "penalties" are laughable in most MMO's. Mostly its just a couple coins that you will make back in 10 mins. Now, I'm against EXP loss for just a random death since that promotes grinding, but death should be something you REALLY want to avoid, not just a minor speed bump. I think the problem lies with MMO's singleminded focus on COMBAT COMBAT COMBAT always. Aside from crafting, which will almost invariably be to promote more combat, most MMO's have nothing else going for them. If your lucky you might get some player housing but... meh.

    I want real adventure! A sense of discovery, puzzles, lockpicking, traps, unmarked side quests! I want to find items besides "Armor Piece Tier 3" that just make me marginally better at what I already do! I want to find a Decanter of Endeless water that seems useless until you happen upon a firefield you wouldn't normally be able to cross.

    Anyway, more games need to take cues from Dungeons & Dragons, Online and Table, and other real RPGs.

    --------------------------------
    -Been there, done that: Xsyon, WoW, EVE, Maplestory, City of Heroes, Guild Wars, Warhammer Online, FF11, Rift
    -Currently playing: Not MMOs
    -Wants to check out: SWTOR, Dark Millennium

  • bamwallabamwalla Member UncommonPosts: 221

    I totally agree, I have no interest in a game that allows you to hit max level within a month, or even weeks.  I'm not saying I'm all about grind either -- but give us something to do along the way.  When I started AC the devs said people may never hit the max level.  Of course they were wrong -- but it took a long time.  So you weren't worried about hitting max level, that meant you just went out and played.  XP'd some, grouped some, quested some, raised your jump so you could make it to the roof tops in Eastham or line the whole place with so many torches that the devs changed the item decay time...  For me a game starts at level one and when /  if I hit max level I usually reroll.  I like swimming forward, not treading water.

  • Chaotic16Chaotic16 Member Posts: 116

    Originally posted by BarCrow

    Agreed. What happened to the journey?. I logged into SWG again and found myself enjoying running around doing nothing . Just roaming about the desert sands of Tatooine...finding giant dragons and the odd traveller npc or player.

    It's been taken over by the easy-mode casual market. Personally--with the current state of MMORPGs--Minecraft is the only thing that satisfies me. That, and Morrowind and/or Oblivion.

    image

  • causscauss Member UncommonPosts: 666

    Originally posted by mbd1968



    Originally posted by Drakiis

    And now you finally understand the truth about pure pve game play, and to a lesser extent themeparks as a whole. This is how pvpers are born, from the ashes of boredom, to counter end game repitition, because nothing in pvp is scripted, nothing is repetitive, it's not about shinies, merit badges, or high score. It's about respect and recognition of skill, for your guild pride, for your own virtual immortality.



    Welcome to the real game.

    Yeah, whatever.


     

    It is too easy to just say 'yeah, whatever'. Because PVP does give you the element of suprise. Nothing is scripted. I like both sides (PVP and PVE), but you need both developed in a clever way to create a long lasting game. For some reason, that is quite the hazzle for most developers these days.

  • Jellyf1shJellyf1sh Member Posts: 40

    A great article that totally sums up how I feel about endgame. I never understood the rush to get to level cap. For me, the journey is paramount (hence the fact that I play LotRO). However,  I also revisited WoW post Cataclysm, and agree that the leveling is now WAY too fast.

    Azeroth is such a beautifully realised creation, and it's a shame that you are propelled through it at such a vast rate of knots, that you can barely catch your breath. I think developers expect you to want to reach endgame and raid the days away ASAP. Also, it seems that you're almost universally looked down on by other players at level cap in their shiny new amour sets (until a new update distracts them by dropping the next proverbial carrot-on-a-stick in front of their eyes).

    For those that enjoy that style of content, I say "fair play to you. If that's the way you want to enjoy your endgame, have a blast!!". I just don't see why the only "alternative" has to be leveling "alternatives" (in LotRO i'm on Alt No. 10 BTW!).  

    On the subject of LotRO, It's worrying that Turbine seems to be following Blizzards model of producting increasingly engame-centric content (Cataclysm, not withstanding). I don't have any issue when updates makes the game "longer" (ie new zones, level cap increase etc.), but at the moment all they seem to do is to make the endgame content "wider" (most of which becomes almost totally obsolete as soon as the level cap is moved again - "Rift, anyone"?). I just wish Turbine would devoted more time to making the whole journey wider. Let's have new low and mid-level zones, alternative paths to explore (literally and figuratively), and a slower-paced, leveling experience full of memorable moments worth savoring.

    Why must us reluctant Alt-oholics put up with being the Raiders down-trodden and forgotten half-brother? I think there are far more of us than the developers realise, it's just that we are more discerning and not placated by shiny new baubles du jour!

  • BarakIIIBarakIII Member Posts: 800

    You most certainly are not alone. WoW was my first MMO and I just never got what was supposedly so great about the 'endgame'. Like you I ended up just leveling other characters.

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 4,011

    What if developers did it backwards so that raiding was the leveling process and end game was more solo-oriented?

     

    Also, you can turn your XP off in some games to prolong the journey. I used to do that in WoW, after they increaded the leveling speed, so I could actually enjoy some of the gear and enchants I had acquired. Not like I was meeting anyone new in the dungeon finder that I had to keep up with.

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  • JenuvielJenuviel Member Posts: 960

    Originally posted by Palebane

    What if developers did it backwards so that raiding was the leveling process and end game was more solo-oriented?

    I'm sure it'd appeal to the people who raid now, but it would more or less lose everyone who currently either rolls alts or leaves once they hit the cap. Raiding just isn't for everyone.  Frankly, I'd like to see more specialization in MMOs: all raiding, all pvp, all solo, all roleplay, whatever. Focus on a niche and do it to perfection. Current MMOs try so hard to be everything to everybody that the only thing they manage to do spectacularly is disappoint.

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 4,011

     






    Originally posted by Jenuviel





    Originally posted by Palebane



    What if developers did it backwards so that raiding was the leveling process and end game was more solo-oriented?





    I'm sure it'd appeal to the people who raid now, but it would more or less lose everyone who currently either rolls alts or leaves once they hit the cap. Raiding just isn't for everyone.  Frankly, I'd like to see more specialization in MMOs, though: all raiding, all pvp, all solo, all roleplay, whatever. Focus on a niche and do it to perfection. Current MMOs try so hard to be everything to everybody that the only thing they manage to do spectacularly is disappoint.



     

    It wouldn't have to be raiding as we know it in the popular games right now. It could be more of a banding together to kill harder monsters (or players).  Everyone would be doing it.  The journey would always be there, for everyone; Less segregation and selectiveness. Solo play would have to be much different as well, obviously.

     

    A lot of players, myself included, would likely enjoy raiding more if it wasn't so strict and serious. I enjoyed the old 40 man raids and the world bosses with 100s of players participating the most (minus the lag of course). It isn't necessarily the challenge or the people we're tired of as much as the treadmill sensation, in my opinion.

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  • jusomdudejusomdude Member RarePosts: 2,706

    I hate end game, raiding and repeating quests a million times.

    That's why I'm looking forward to SWTOR so much, I'm interested in all the storylines.

     

    I really hope some developer finds a way to make a more interesting end game, if they don't, I'll probably level a few alts and quit their game.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910

    I'm with the author on dungeons and raids. I could take them or leave them while I'm leveling or at end game. Rift does a pretty good job of not being a dungeons/raid game until you get to 50, but at 50 that's the end game. They are slow adding little things here and there that aren't raids, but I'm not sure if it'll be enough to take Rift truly beyond the current "Level to Max and Raid" thing. At this point, I think even some sort of of "endgame" PvP would be a blessing to a lot of people.

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  • k11keeperk11keeper Member UncommonPosts: 1,048

    Idk how I feel about this. Mixed feelings really. There have been games where I took my time enjoyed the journey, had a great journey, and then finally delved into endgame. A few times I've lost myself in endgame having scheduled events, 3, 4, or even 5 nights a week. I felt like I was accomplishing something but ultimately it would become fleeting. Once you've killed a certian endgame mob or gone through a dungeon for the 50th or even the 100th time it's nowhere near as cool.

    Then when that new content comes out you rush to it, it's amazing you're heart is beating and you feel so great when you kill that insane creature. Then it only takes 10 times before you're bored, but you still have to do it 50 times to get what you need. So I don't do it anymore, but at the same time it was some of the most fun I've ever had in gaming.

    So I think everyone should do it once if they want to consider themselves a true MMO player but not for too long or you become and angry anti-social psychopath and will be lost from real society forever.

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    I SO agree with the article!

    "For one thing, I’m totally and utterly not item-motivated, so going into dungeons to get shinies doesn’t fire me up. Planning to do dungeons so I can get the gear to do more dungeons – meh. Not my thing."

    This. I feel exactly like that too. And as I scan through this thread, it seems a lot of people dislike gear grind and raids as endgame. I recall I made a poll here and a vast majority of people voted, they were NOT interesting in endgame whatsoever. So if this is, I wonder why every MMO copies this terrible WOW formula?

    I just today hit lv 50 with Rift (which I continued because 2 friends joined), but now? It's all gear grind in instance dungeons or gear grind in PVP arenas. Both things I don't like very much. Why is there today such an emphasis on endgame? Esp. when apparently it is not very popular actually.

    When I am interested in is: getting new levels & new powers, getting into new zones to explore, furthering story. Gear for me is just a means to an goal, not a goal I am interested in by itself. I am usually not a WOW basher, but in this case WOW really introduced a terrible thing to MMOs with the endless grind endgame. I so loathe that.

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  • NeVeRLiFtNeVeRLiFt Member UncommonPosts: 380

    Agree 100%!

    Very good and well said, hope developer's see this and take note.

     

    Cause the dead cow of chasing gear and running dungeons/raiding for endgame is not something I will ever bother with again in the mmo I play.

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  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    I think that the gear grind appeals most to the achiever type of MMO gamer, to use Bartle's model. It appeals to epeen/pride, and your achievements ingame are nicely translated into new gear shinies.

     

    There's also the question, 'what else?' if you hit level cap. Questing has a limited value since they end, or to put it in pure figures: questing/leveling can keep a player busy and entertained for like 150-200 hours per character, while a player spends thousands of hours in an MMORPG on average. Doing dungeons and raids can keep players entertained for many more hundreds of hours of gameplay, especially since it's PvE content that is repeatable.

    If you remove that, then what can keep a player who isn't interested in PvP entertained? Quest content sure won't suffice, since it's not repeatable for one, and only a company with the amount of budget on top AAA level (like Blizzard) could keep spurning out copious amounts of quest content that has more entertainment value in it than just the same old 'kill 10 rats, fetch this and that' content to grind away.

     

    So, in short you need something that could replace raids as non-PvE content that offers enough entertainment value for many hundreds of hours. There are of course ways, like deep crafting or maybe GW2's Dynamic Events, but the question is whether those other means for PvE content will appeal to the achiever type of MMO gamer as much as raid content will.

     

    Or, another way of looking at it, maybe it's time that designers will nourish the other Bartle types of MMO gamers more instead of purely the achiever or killer types. Maybe it's time that explorers and socializers will get their spot in the sunlight, in a larger amount and more various ways than they have been in MMO's of the last 5-7 years.

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  • PraylorPraylor Member Posts: 9

    Totally agree, Being one of the Old Table top RPG players (Chainmail anyone?) I think the point alot of you are making is That games today are half games. What I mean is were is the spontaneous moments. Wheres the individuality ? Why am I getting the gear Again ? What threat is present that requires me to train this hard. Who is the ultimate Bad guy/gal/it that is causing this mess ?

    If the sole goal of a game is to get the best gear to kill other players, this is a fail concept. Players do not build bonds or friendships killing one another, this most times breeds contempt for other players. Bonds are built barely surviving an encounter. This is what is lost in modern gaming. Arming and equiping a bunch of people to engage in human cock fighting is only entertaing to those in the stands.

    The 2 reasons they do it and will not change is

    It's cheap

    Players will pay to cheat and be the best. The Cash shop threw out all hope for a better game.

    Games with rich Lore, Engaging Plotlines and vibrant stories are a thing of the past. Sadly till the players themselves demand better in a unified movement. Game Dev's will keep regurgitating out the same old pigs with a differant shade of lipstick.

     

  • VhalnVhaln Member Posts: 3,159



    Originally posted by SignusM

    Wha? No. WoW's endgame is far more alienating than most end game. It's end game is pretty much the same as EverQuests, and that is, bad.

    DAoC's end game was balanced so well that anyone could jump into any raid, actually contribute something, and have a shot at the loot, without being in an "epic raider guild". And then there was RvR..






     

     

    If the OP had played DAOC in its prime, at the very least, this article about EQ / WoW / Rift style endgames would be titled, "This is not endgame, my friend."

     

    To which, I would agree. Endgames that revolve entirely around raiding instances ad nauseum for gear aren't endgames.  Not compared to the highly optional PvE raids, soloable lv.50 zones, and crafting of DAOC that merely helped tie RvR together into a cohesive whole that was more than the sum of its parts.

     

    A lot of people also seem to forget that in DAOC's first year of its existence, it was very much about the journey too.  PvE was solid, grouping was fun but not mandatory, every zone was full of players, and it wasn't until Mythic started catering heavily to people who just wanted to race to endgame, at the expense of keeping the leveling game alive, that it became all about endgame.

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  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,087

    Im not that dead set against raiding or dungeons as endgame. But I would like to see additional features you can enjoy at lvl cap.

    My problem with WoW's implementation of raiding is the set path and the loot distribution. You do the same raid over and over untill you have the gear to do next raid over and over untill you have the gear to do..etc. The set path is too limited and therefore too boring for me. Its just silly the way they with every expansion, come up with higher stats, higher lvl cap , just so the players have to start the EXACT same treadmill again. This whole gear and stats inflation simply became ridiculous.

    I had the same problem as the OP, in that I stopped playing not long after reaching lvl cap in some of those games. Or just before endgame in the case of EQ2. But that was also because its so obviously about tiers in those games. Every tier is just a rehash of the last one. The whole world in those games is divided into tiers and that just gets boring for me quite fast.

  • Entropy14Entropy14 Member UncommonPosts: 675

    Here's to AC , still my favorite game I ever played, yet I never reached level 126 , always wanted to just for the show.

     

    But I never had so much fun as I did on the beaches of eastham.

  • GnomigGnomig Member Posts: 48

    utterly /signed.

    same over here, really.

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