Hate to say it, but it's the casual gamers with a sense of entitlement that's ruined the genre.
They don't want their games to be immersive, complex, and require some measure of effort to accomplish goals. They want everything to be instant gratification with as little time, effort, downtime, and consequences as possible.
I remember a time when playing an MMO meant being part of a community on an online virtual world that you were apart of. Today it's more synonymous with playing a massive multiplayer online single player game on rails.
I dont even think its just the gamers. Theres a whole generation of young people who have grown used to instantaneous stimulation.
It's a video game. Christ, not a college degree.
It's not exactly like Pac-Man, Asteroids, or Pong made you work to see any content you couldn't see from the moment you put your first coin in. Games, as we originally knew them, were simply time wasters with the possibility of a high score as any sort of gratification for effort.
I'm sure this has long since been pointed out... but Pac-Man, Asteroids and Pong were not MMORPGs, nor were they massive, immersive worlds.
It's still just a game. Only made massively multiplayer. It's still not a career. Unless you're some sort of gold farmer.
The entire genre is watered down to feed the one month box buyers and the companies knows it, face it the devs don't want do make a long lasting MMO that people will play for years they want to earn the money via box sales, it's simple as that.
Fast forward, genuine and varied gameplay?! Genuinely fun games?!
Right so you consider logging onto themepark format game and picking up quests A B C and D. A is a pick up, B is a kill quest, C is an escort and D is a drops quest.
You head over to quest hub III and begin completing quests a b c and d. You then grab warfront A and run it once. Then you head into generic instance B2 and run that, generally not saying three words to the people there because alls that matters to 90% of people is getting to that end game where the REAL FUN IS!!!
You arrive at end game in generic themepark MMO and make THE choice, will I grind pvp or will I grind PVE expert/heroics. You have selected to do both! (omg both!) then you grind 3 experts for badges/marks/whatever and a few drops. The after that you grind out 10000 honour/fame/favor ready to make those very important gear purchases.
Fast forward two months!
Your sat on your pile of expert dungeon and pvp gear and then the last door awaits you, raiding! You join raiding guild 20302 and join up 3 times at a week from 6 pm to 11 pm to raid the same raids every time. You do this for 4 months slowly getting the drops you want.
Then there it is, you have the best gear you can get, your king of the castle, three options await you..
A - Run around capital city in circles for 8 months waiting for expansion to do it all over again.
B - Make an alt and do it all over again.
C - Move over to generic Themepark game 2, and do the same damned things over again.
Heck, Ene...you make it sound like theres a crap load of stuff to do in WoW. I wander what everyones been complaining about? Axehilt's common sense seems to have enraged you.
If your response was sarcastic, otter... then well played. I've missed it completely.
However, assuming it's not sarcastic, that you would consider what Ene described as "a load of stuff to do" is a perfect example of how far the genre has degraded from what it used to be.
Today's MMOs, watered-down and streamlined as theyv'e become, are a mere shadow of what older MMOs offered. What you may consider "loads of content" was just baseline for what a player could expect from a 1st and 2nd gen MMO. Had what Ene described been the "big feature list" of a MMO back then, the collective response from folks would likely have been along the lines of "... really? That's it?"
Just look at a MMO like FFXI. At last count it had about 22 unique types of activities to partake in, of which raiding for gear, questing and leveling up - what you consider "loads of things to do" - are only 3. Of all those 22 types of activities, each of them was fully realized with its own goals, systems, rewards and challenges. All 22 activities didn't appeal to everyone, but they didn't have to, because there plenty of other options that those people *did* find entertaining. *That* is a "load of things to do". Even in its first year it had more content than the 3 items described. Click Here to see a list of most of them, complete with pages of information on each system, how it works, etc.
In Lineage 2 you have leveling your character, sieging fortresses which come with their own unique benefits, sieging castles brings its own benefits, sieging clan-halls brings its own benefits, doing Seven Seals has direct and indirect benefits to the individual as well as to others playing, there's raiding, there's Olympiad, there's world PvP including clan wars, there's a very active player-driven political system that keeps the balance of power and control ever-shifting... and so forth. *That* is a "load of stuff" to do.
AC1, EQ1, DAoC, AO, Eve... and so forth. All those MMOs truly offer(ed) "loads of stuff to do", and all within massive, expansive and non-linear worlds. In some of those MMOs, it's not unusual to hear people say they've played the game for nearly a decade and still haven't seen or done nearly everything there is to do. The developers and designers of those MMOs truly thought "big" when they created them.
So, in that context, that you (and others, for sure) consider those 3 fundamental elements of a MMO to be "loads of content" actually casts a damning light on how low people's expectations have been reduced.
If someone looks back on those older games and only remembers them as "tedious grindfests" then that's more an indication of how they chose to play than it is of the game in question. Same goes for raiding. All those games offered far more to do than just "tediously grind levels" or raids. I've seen that claim made of FFXI ("it's nothing but a leveing grindfest") and I can call BS on it with 100% certainty because I know, first-hand, that there's *far* more to it than that. If someone approaches a game as nothing but "a grind", then that's all they're going to get out of it. You get out what you put in. But of course, it's always easier to blame someone/something else than to accept responsibility for one's own actions, right?
If one's idea of "fun" is being led around by the nose, having most everything pointed out to you and being rewarded handsomely for even the most menial of tasks... then I can see newer MMOs being a "gold mine". For those of us who were fortunate enough to experience them when they were truly deserving of the label "MMORPG", and have seen the truly amazing experiences they can be, it's a shame what they've been reduced to.
So much potential was there to really expand on them and make them bigger, deeper and more diverse. Instead, the popularity of WoW and subsequent "mainstream" status of MMOs has resulted in them going the opposite direction, becoming smaller and more shallow as investors and publishers clamor for their market share of that "lowest common denominator".
I also don't know why people take offense when it's pointed out that they want instant gratification and ample rewards for minimal effort.. In practically every other thread on the topic, that's precisely what people are asking for; "Make it faster!", "Make it easier!", "It takes too long!", "It's too time-consuming!", "It's not good enough!"... and so on. And no matter how much faster/easier/quicker/rewarding devs make it, it's still never enough is it? Giving them what they want only leaves them wanting more of it, and woe to the developer who doesn't deliver.
The whining and complaining continues, the devs keep trying to appease what they see as their "key market", and so the games continue to degrade further and further into virtual skinner boxes with a chat window.
Having seen the degradation over the past ~10 years, it's no surprise to me - at all - that MMO players are becoming more and more bored with each new game to come out. Everything that made them interesting and popular in the first place has been systematically watered down, rendered pointless, or eliminated entirely. The "player factor" has all but been removed from the equation, because very little is left to the player to do anymore but "connect the clearly marked dots" and collect their reward.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You need only a couple hours to gain epix from new content in wow, your confusing the ease at which items can be gained with the ability to win something on a roll. There is nothing rewarding or satisfying about the route through which you get that item, Unless you are only interested in bragging about some meaningless graphic that everyone else gets just as easily. Surely if the bosses were hard and took several weeks then that would be rewarding for all concerned.
I would be interested to know why the people that complain about not having time to sink into more difficult raids dont just use the instance lock/save system to carry over instances until they can complete it? is that not the best of both worlds that blizzard tried to achieve (to their credit)?
Not L359 level epics, unless you count craft ones, which are fairly cheap. In fact, you probably even get those in hours if you count the time to earn the gold.
The only way to do it quickly is through raiding ... which takes weeks to gear up to do.
If someone looks back on those older games and only remembers them as "tedious grindfests" then that's more an indication of how they chose to play than it is of the game in question. Same goes for raiding.
If one's idea of "fun" is being led around by the nose, having most everything pointed out to you and being rewarded handsomely for even the most menial of tasks... then I can see newer MMOs being a "gold mine". For those of us who were fortunate enough to experience them when they were truly deserving of the label "MMORPG", and have seen the truly amazing experiences they can be, it's a shame what they've been reduced to.
They do not get it, Mike. All they care about is how fast to get the "next" tier of epics (which, of course, will become obsolete with a new expansion). Even the leveling is now a joke (one month to cap in Rift, casual play - yes i've been playing it, they hooked me with the "dynamic event" thing which was a blatant lie). The misunderstanding comes from the fact that they assume everyone is in for the same thing (easy obtainable loot - the above poster's contributions are a clear example, only references of how better and faster and greater getting loot in the new games is) and we consider a gear grinder as being "less of a gamer" because all they care is loot.
Ok, someone plays only for gear, i'm ok with that, and i'm actually glad that there are big games (WoW, and now Rift) which accomodate those people. We, the others, also want good games made by serious companies which cater for our goals and playstyle, that's all. We think that our games were superior, we were looking for socializing, communities, lots of different stuff to do, no instant gratification (getting an "epic" was indeed epic), the old games offered that, our atitude is normal. The gear grinders think their games are superior because they offer them more "new" gear, and that's also normal.
I remember playing UO and AC1, and thinking to myself "man, this game is simply AMAZING!!! And the genre is only new, imagine how great MMO's will be in 10 years! *orgasm*"....
"Not L359 level epics, unless you count craft ones, which are fairly cheap. In fact, you probably even get those in hours if you count the time to earn the gold."
it took 48 hours to level cap, and another couple days through heroics to get to 340ish at which point you could easily beat some bosses. That was just at the start of the expansion, move forward a month and everyone is mostly epix through farming 10 man bosses and crafting, thousands of guilds have cleared 10 man etc. Granted this was much better than the previous expansion, but on top of this, blizzard has regularly hot fixed the content to make it progressivly easier, regardless of the fact that people are gearing up.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
,WOW will remain as the casual game on rails with bumpers and hopefully GW2 & Archeage will provide a home for players looking for a more sophisticated in depth experience where immersion matters. Not sure about SW:TOR, i suspect it may be aiming for the WOW casual market - perfect!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
They do not get it, Mike. All they care about is how fast to get the "next" tier of epics (which, of course, will become obsolete with a new expansion). Even the leveling is now a joke (one month to cap in Rift, casual play - yes i've been playing it, they hooked me with the "dynamic event" thing which was a blatant lie). The misunderstanding comes from the fact that they assume everyone is in for the same thing (easy obtainable loot - the above poster's contributions are a clear example, only references of how better and faster and greater getting loot in the new games is) and we consider a gear grinder as being "less of a gamer" because all they care is loot.
I was thinking along those same lines as well, and was going to append that point to my post as well, in support of why people are to blame for their own playstyles. My post had gotten quite long enough and I figured my point was made already, so I didn't bother :-p.
But to touch on that one point, it's another thing that people seem to get "riled up" about... That is, being told that they are to blame for their own dissatisfaction, due to how they've chosen to play the games. I've had people get pretty indignant with me when I tell them "if you're approaching the game like a grindfest, then that's what it's going to be. That's not the game's fault".
That previous paragraph, in this context, pertains specifically to the older 1st and 2nd generation MMOs. Newer MMOs do suffer a lack of variety and depth and, so, it's easier to believe that "grinding levels" and "grinding raids" are about the only thing people have to do. Aside from questing and a weak system they call "crafting", those two things practically all MMOs are designed with anymore. 1st and 2nd gen MMOs, however, had plenty more to do and, so, anyone claiming "they were nothing but a leveling grindfest" was clearly ignoring everything but leveling.
But then, the evidence is clearly and repeatedly represented in just about every MMO's forums these days. Among all the questions you see, what ones come up repeatedly?
1. How fast can you get to level cap?
2. How much end game is there?
Another would be "what class/build can solo to end game the fastest?"
Above all else, I'd say those are the 2 or 3 things people seem to be the most concerned about when looking into any new MMO.
Of course, two of the most common complaints from the same types of players, are "Leveling needs to be faster", and "there's not enough end-game", with another being "It's not soloable enough". I've seen people who haven't even started playing yet, complaining that "it's going to take too long to get to end game" and that "there's not enough end game provided".
Is it any mystery what those people will end up spending most all their time doing when they start? Shouldn't be.
They'll be level grinding, as quickly as possible - ignoring all other content that would "slow them down" along the way. Then they'll be doing end-game, doing the same raids over and over again, to get the "best gear"... only to complain about "having nothing to do" once they've burned through it all.
Then they'll get on a forum somewhere (such as here) and complain about how "the game is nothing but a leveling and raiding grindfest".
Meanwhile, there are other people playing the same exact game who are experiencing all of what it offers, are never lacking for things to do and never feel they're "grinding" because they're never "forced" to do something they don't want to.
Only the people who are in a hurry to get to end-game are the ones who seem to feel that way... After all, if they want to get to end game "as fast as possible", then I suppose they are "forced" to do nothing but grind away.
But again... whose fault is that? The game's, or their own?
Of course, it's their own fault. No one but themself "forced" them to play the way they do. But try telling them that. A core element of MMORPGs is and has always been character progression over time. It's never been about "hitting level cap quickly then raiding non-stop 'til the next expansion". That's something players have twisted it into... complaining the whole way, of course.
Ok, someone plays only for gear, i'm ok with that, and i'm actually glad that there are big games (WoW, and now Rift) which accomodate those people. We, the others, also want good games made by serious companies which cater for our goals and playstyle, that's all. We think that our games were superior, we were looking for socializing, communities, lots of different stuff to do, no instant gratification (getting an "epic" was indeed epic), the old games offered that, our atitude is normal. The gear grinders think their games are superior because they offer them more "new" gear, and that's also normal.
Absolutely. I'm not asking for every MMO out there to 'cater to what I want'. I'd just like a well-funded and solidly developed, modern AAA MMO to come out that is more in line with the kind of MMO experience I enjoy.The more options there are, the better.
And yes, it was quite awesome when rare gear was truly rare and not handed out like prizes from a gumball machine. But, well.. another ugly trait of many newer MMO players - entitlement - has all but ruined that concept as well...
An all-time favorite quote of mine by someone who doesn't seem to understand the concept of something being "rare":
"I don't care if it's not supposed to be a common item. Just because it's rare doesn't mean everyone shouldn't be able to get it more easily".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
"Not L359 level epics, unless you count craft ones, which are fairly cheap. In fact, you probably even get those in hours if you count the time to earn the gold."
it took 48 hours to level cap, and another couple days through heroics to get to 340ish at which point you could easily beat some bosses. That was just at the start of the expansion, move forward a month and everyone is mostly epix through farming 10 man bosses and crafting, thousands of guilds have cleared 10 man etc. Granted this was much better than the previous expansion, but on top of this, blizzard has regularly hot fixed the content to make it progressivly easier, regardless of the fact that people are gearing up.
Only no live, 24 hr gaming hardcore player can get to level cap in 48 hours. Took me 5-6 days going from 80 to 85, and that is playing everyday.
You cannot easily beat raid bosses without some purple gear. The only way to get purple gear is through either crafting or rep grind .. which takes a lot longer than a couple of days.
WOW has much more than thousand of guilds .. and it has been MONTHS since the expansion. Oh, not to mention only a SMALL percentage has clear H mode raids.
And sure, everyone consumes content at different rate. So if you are fast, stop a while until they release new content. NO one says you have to play WOW (or any game) continuously without taking a break doing something else.
Server firsts were about 13 hours, but say a few days for the average experienced player. RE raid content, the normal mode stuff was blizzed with the exception of the last couple bosses very quickly by the majority of raiding guilds after a couple weeks. Heroic mode was nicely tuned and would remain so if blizzard did not insist on their tranched nerfing strategy. Why nerf at all though if you can easily access the normal level version of all bosses? (next tier of gear incomming quickly will make it faceroll as well) Take tol borad, that boss was indeed a faceroll in blue gear, and well known for 'free epixx' (free tier x item in 2 minutes) If blizz did not nerf content over time and continually inflate stats with every release on content then a lot of the issues would dissapear, but they wont. They wont because of the complaining from certain quarters - look at the complaining about the heroics, 3O - 45 mins to clear near the start, with the only real difficulty if you tried to do the achieves, and people wanted them easier..
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Either this thread is a joke or someone wants to be washed without becoming wet.
In most F2P games you have your hardcore feeling, if you don´t spend money. But you don´t want this. You want to rock others by spending more time or/and with your friends than the others. In F2P games you´ll find the most innovative gameplay. Pay for the mount and 1-2 other things to support the devs. If the cash shop is too greedy, then be loud on forums.
Either this thread is a joke or someone wants to be washed without becoming wet.
In most F2P games you have your hardcore feeling, if you don´t spend money. But you don´t want this. You want to rock others by spending more time or/and with your friends than the others.
In F2P games you´ll find the most innovative gameplay. Pay for the mount and 1-2 other things to support the devs. If the cash shop is too greedy, then be loud on forums.
FTP is not the root cause of the problems that are being discussed here..
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
one of the 1st mmos to offer a dynamic world, where players could build or destroy other players keeps
Shadowbane didn't fail because it was "trying to be innovative". It failed because it was a laggy, buggy mess that was poorly developed and supported. Despite all its issues, people played it - for what it was - up until they finally pulled the plug. Had the game been better developed, better supported and maintained, it would have continued to stay online.
Also, Shadowbane, being a hardcore FFA PvP MMO with full looting, guaranteed it would never grow beyond "niche" status; just as is the case with Darkfall now.
Further, people saying a game is going to be a "EQ killer" means as much as people saying it's going to be a "WoW killer". It means nothing. It's fan and/or media-driven hyperbole, nothing more.
where players could even play a dragon and it was expected to be an event driven mmo, with weekly events
Another poor example. Its innovative features aren't what "killed it". It was a poor launch, lacking support, and constant ongoing drama within the company that led to HZ's problems. Incidentally, Horizons is still around.
Innovation alone doesn't guarantee a game's success, nor its failure.
the game that outsold EQ?
WOW --- themepark
its what players wanted, a fun game lacking innovation but had plenty of polish and largly bugfree
Being a new Warcraft game - a series with an already large built-in playerbase guaranteed strong initial sales. The part I highlighted in orange is what sustained it after the initial wave.
WoW succeeds because Blizzard knows how to develop and maintain an overall stable and polished product over the long term that many people find enjoyable. They have a proven track record, pre-dating WoW, of having done this with multiple IPs, seeing great success at every turn.
If it had been created by a less capable and prepared developer who blundered horribly and botched it, WoW - even being an already successful IP - would not have the success it does. For other examples that prove this out, see SWG, The Matrix Online and, to a lesser degree, LoTRO and Warhammer.
It doesn't matter what your IP is, or how innovative your product is. If that IP or those innovations are poorly implemented and executed, then it doesn't matter. Innovation and/or a popular IP aren't going to save you.
Shadowbane had (then) innovative ideas, but awful execution. Horizons had many great and innovative ideas, but horrible execution. That's why they didn't succeed. It had nothing to do with "being innovative".
it possible to make polished mmos WITH innovation
but the history of mmos has shown that with innovation comes lag and buggy commercial release
Oh what a spin-tastic crock of BS.
History has shown that MMOs developed by incapable or inexperienced developers tend to have buggy commercial releases.
Innovation has nothing to do with it.
Anarchy Online -- the 1st mmo to have instanced content and the worst game launch ive ever seen
First Impressions: Anarchy Online
Find out what happens when you crash on a distant planet...and crash, and crash, and crash...
the reviewer claims that, for 2001, AO is the best mmo out there for *innovation and elegance*
but he cant recommend buying it because of the launch bugs
Another poor example.
Anarchy Online had a notoriously poor launch, plagued with myriad technical and server issues. It had nothing to do with AO's innovations in terms of gameplay.
To the contrary, AO's gameplay has often been praised for its depth and flexibility. The game has won multiple awards over the years for its gameplay and design.
-- and players care more about their wallets and a bugfree/lagfree game than innovation
HAS POTENTIAL wont sell a game no matter how much innovation it has
More pertinently, a poorly designed and maintained MMO with ongoing technical issues making it unpleasant to play, or even outright unplayable, will not do well whether it's innovative or generic, sandbox or themepark, PvP or PvE, cartoony or realistic.
For all the examples you gave, throughout your entire post, you're chasing a red herring up the wrong tree.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The word innovation is irrelevant, past mmos without 'innovation' have also been buggy so you can factor out that word. I guess what you are saying is that the more complicated the mmorg the more skilled and resourced the dev house needs to be to pull it off, which applies to any product. Mmorgs are however more complicated by nature, so the failure rate will be higher.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
past mmos that offered innovations -- FAILED because they were too buggy
if you read the wiki links that I provided, it clearly states on reception,
both Shadowbane and Horizons were plagued by a buggy launch
I also stated that AO was the worst launch ive ever personally experienced
the 1st impressions link itself is called Crash, Crash, Crash -- how much more clear than can it be?
bugs killed the game
you get ONE CHANCE to make good 1st impressions with players
Hmm... I think I got your point just fine, and now you're trying to back-pedal.
Yes, you talk about them being plagued by buggy launches... and you connect those games, in each case, to them "trying to be innovative".
You make three general statements, and discuss 3 different MMOs (Shadowbane, Horizons and AO) which all clearly correlate poor releases with their developers "trying to be innovative".
"but the history of mmos has shown that with innovation comes lag and buggy commercial release"
"mmos have tried for innovation w poor results"
You make this statement about AO in particular, adding emphasis to the "innovation and elegance" part as if to further prove your point..
"AO is the best mmo out there for *innovation and elegance*... but he cant recommend buying it because of the launch bugs"
You conclude your post with a statement that people"care more about their wallets and a bugfree/lagfree game than innovation".
For that last statement in particular, I pointed out that those MMOs did poorly because they were troubled by technical/launch issues and such. That they tried to be innovative has nothing to do with why more people didn't/don't play them.
You characterize "a bugfree/lagfree game" and "innovation" as though they're somehow mutually exclusive and people have to choose between one or the other. They aren't, and people don't. That is another reason why your argument is flawed.
Further, you then mention WoW as a successful game that "didn't try to be innovative" and is a "themepark", as though those two factors are why it was successful, in the same way as "trying to innovate" is why the others were troubled.
Other themepark MMOs that haven't tried to be innovative have launched and performed poorly as well, for the same reason. They didn't have a capable or experienced enough developer behind them.
You are clearly and repeatedly correlating "innovation" with "troubled games" throughout your entire post. So, I pointed out that "trying to be innovative" isn't what hurt those games.
Don't try spinning you way out of it now because your logic is shown to be flawed. That looks rather dishonest.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
From a coding/development perspective innovation does not necessarily equate to a more complicated build. Building innovations can sometimes have the advantage that it does not have any legacy issues to deal with so can be cleaner to build and test.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Comments
It's still just a game. Only made massively multiplayer. It's still not a career. Unless you're some sort of gold farmer.
The entire genre is watered down to feed the one month box buyers and the companies knows it, face it the devs don't want do make a long lasting MMO that people will play for years they want to earn the money via box sales, it's simple as that.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
If your response was sarcastic, otter... then well played. I've missed it completely.
However, assuming it's not sarcastic, that you would consider what Ene described as "a load of stuff to do" is a perfect example of how far the genre has degraded from what it used to be.
Today's MMOs, watered-down and streamlined as theyv'e become, are a mere shadow of what older MMOs offered. What you may consider "loads of content" was just baseline for what a player could expect from a 1st and 2nd gen MMO. Had what Ene described been the "big feature list" of a MMO back then, the collective response from folks would likely have been along the lines of "... really? That's it?"
Just look at a MMO like FFXI. At last count it had about 22 unique types of activities to partake in, of which raiding for gear, questing and leveling up - what you consider "loads of things to do" - are only 3. Of all those 22 types of activities, each of them was fully realized with its own goals, systems, rewards and challenges. All 22 activities didn't appeal to everyone, but they didn't have to, because there plenty of other options that those people *did* find entertaining. *That* is a "load of things to do". Even in its first year it had more content than the 3 items described. Click Here to see a list of most of them, complete with pages of information on each system, how it works, etc.
In Lineage 2 you have leveling your character, sieging fortresses which come with their own unique benefits, sieging castles brings its own benefits, sieging clan-halls brings its own benefits, doing Seven Seals has direct and indirect benefits to the individual as well as to others playing, there's raiding, there's Olympiad, there's world PvP including clan wars, there's a very active player-driven political system that keeps the balance of power and control ever-shifting... and so forth. *That* is a "load of stuff" to do.
AC1, EQ1, DAoC, AO, Eve... and so forth. All those MMOs truly offer(ed) "loads of stuff to do", and all within massive, expansive and non-linear worlds. In some of those MMOs, it's not unusual to hear people say they've played the game for nearly a decade and still haven't seen or done nearly everything there is to do. The developers and designers of those MMOs truly thought "big" when they created them.
So, in that context, that you (and others, for sure) consider those 3 fundamental elements of a MMO to be "loads of content" actually casts a damning light on how low people's expectations have been reduced.
If someone looks back on those older games and only remembers them as "tedious grindfests" then that's more an indication of how they chose to play than it is of the game in question. Same goes for raiding. All those games offered far more to do than just "tediously grind levels" or raids. I've seen that claim made of FFXI ("it's nothing but a leveing grindfest") and I can call BS on it with 100% certainty because I know, first-hand, that there's *far* more to it than that. If someone approaches a game as nothing but "a grind", then that's all they're going to get out of it. You get out what you put in. But of course, it's always easier to blame someone/something else than to accept responsibility for one's own actions, right?
If one's idea of "fun" is being led around by the nose, having most everything pointed out to you and being rewarded handsomely for even the most menial of tasks... then I can see newer MMOs being a "gold mine". For those of us who were fortunate enough to experience them when they were truly deserving of the label "MMORPG", and have seen the truly amazing experiences they can be, it's a shame what they've been reduced to.
So much potential was there to really expand on them and make them bigger, deeper and more diverse. Instead, the popularity of WoW and subsequent "mainstream" status of MMOs has resulted in them going the opposite direction, becoming smaller and more shallow as investors and publishers clamor for their market share of that "lowest common denominator".
I also don't know why people take offense when it's pointed out that they want instant gratification and ample rewards for minimal effort.. In practically every other thread on the topic, that's precisely what people are asking for; "Make it faster!", "Make it easier!", "It takes too long!", "It's too time-consuming!", "It's not good enough!"... and so on. And no matter how much faster/easier/quicker/rewarding devs make it, it's still never enough is it? Giving them what they want only leaves them wanting more of it, and woe to the developer who doesn't deliver.
The whining and complaining continues, the devs keep trying to appease what they see as their "key market", and so the games continue to degrade further and further into virtual skinner boxes with a chat window.
Having seen the degradation over the past ~10 years, it's no surprise to me - at all - that MMO players are becoming more and more bored with each new game to come out. Everything that made them interesting and popular in the first place has been systematically watered down, rendered pointless, or eliminated entirely. The "player factor" has all but been removed from the equation, because very little is left to the player to do anymore but "connect the clearly marked dots" and collect their reward.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Not L359 level epics, unless you count craft ones, which are fairly cheap. In fact, you probably even get those in hours if you count the time to earn the gold.
The only way to do it quickly is through raiding ... which takes weeks to gear up to do.
They do not get it, Mike. All they care about is how fast to get the "next" tier of epics (which, of course, will become obsolete with a new expansion). Even the leveling is now a joke (one month to cap in Rift, casual play - yes i've been playing it, they hooked me with the "dynamic event" thing which was a blatant lie). The misunderstanding comes from the fact that they assume everyone is in for the same thing (easy obtainable loot - the above poster's contributions are a clear example, only references of how better and faster and greater getting loot in the new games is) and we consider a gear grinder as being "less of a gamer" because all they care is loot.
Ok, someone plays only for gear, i'm ok with that, and i'm actually glad that there are big games (WoW, and now Rift) which accomodate those people. We, the others, also want good games made by serious companies which cater for our goals and playstyle, that's all. We think that our games were superior, we were looking for socializing, communities, lots of different stuff to do, no instant gratification (getting an "epic" was indeed epic), the old games offered that, our atitude is normal. The gear grinders think their games are superior because they offer them more "new" gear, and that's also normal.
I remember playing UO and AC1, and thinking to myself "man, this game is simply AMAZING!!! And the genre is only new, imagine how great MMO's will be in 10 years! *orgasm*"....
Oh, how wrong I was!!!!!!!!!!!
"Not L359 level epics, unless you count craft ones, which are fairly cheap. In fact, you probably even get those in hours if you count the time to earn the gold."
it took 48 hours to level cap, and another couple days through heroics to get to 340ish at which point you could easily beat some bosses. That was just at the start of the expansion, move forward a month and everyone is mostly epix through farming 10 man bosses and crafting, thousands of guilds have cleared 10 man etc. Granted this was much better than the previous expansion, but on top of this, blizzard has regularly hot fixed the content to make it progressivly easier, regardless of the fact that people are gearing up.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
,WOW will remain as the casual game on rails with bumpers and hopefully GW2 & Archeage will provide a home for players looking for a more sophisticated in depth experience where immersion matters. Not sure about SW:TOR, i suspect it may be aiming for the WOW casual market - perfect!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Only no live, 24 hr gaming hardcore player can get to level cap in 48 hours. Took me 5-6 days going from 80 to 85, and that is playing everyday.
You cannot easily beat raid bosses without some purple gear. The only way to get purple gear is through either crafting or rep grind .. which takes a lot longer than a couple of days.
WOW has much more than thousand of guilds .. and it has been MONTHS since the expansion. Oh, not to mention only a SMALL percentage has clear H mode raids.
And sure, everyone consumes content at different rate. So if you are fast, stop a while until they release new content. NO one says you have to play WOW (or any game) continuously without taking a break doing something else.
Server firsts were about 13 hours, but say a few days for the average experienced player. RE raid content, the normal mode stuff was blizzed with the exception of the last couple bosses very quickly by the majority of raiding guilds after a couple weeks. Heroic mode was nicely tuned and would remain so if blizzard did not insist on their tranched nerfing strategy. Why nerf at all though if you can easily access the normal level version of all bosses? (next tier of gear incomming quickly will make it faceroll as well) Take tol borad, that boss was indeed a faceroll in blue gear, and well known for 'free epixx' (free tier x item in 2 minutes) If blizz did not nerf content over time and continually inflate stats with every release on content then a lot of the issues would dissapear, but they wont. They wont because of the complaining from certain quarters - look at the complaining about the heroics, 3O - 45 mins to clear near the start, with the only real difficulty if you tried to do the achieves, and people wanted them easier..
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I think overall the functionality on alot of them got bettser but the innovation is lacking, it more about making money than gameplay
Either this thread is a joke or someone wants to be washed without becoming wet.
In most F2P games you have your hardcore feeling, if you don´t spend money. But you don´t want this. You want to rock others by spending more time or/and with your friends than the others.
In F2P games you´ll find the most innovative gameplay. Pay for the mount and 1-2 other things to support the devs. If the cash shop is too greedy, then be loud on forums.
FTP is not the root cause of the problems that are being discussed here..
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
mmos have tried for innovation w poor results
Shadowbane -- I remember when players were saying this was going to be the EQ killer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowbane
one of the 1st mmos to offer a dynamic world, where players could build or destroy other players keeps
Horizons --- another hopeful EQ killer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istaria:_Chronicles_of_the_Gifted
where players could even play a dragon and it was expected to be an event driven mmo, with weekly events
the game that outsold EQ?
WOW --- themepark
its what players wanted, a fun game lacking innovation but had plenty of polish and largly bugfree
it possible to make polished mmos WITH innovation
but the history of mmos has shown that with innovation comes lag and buggy commercial release
Anarchy Online -- the 1st mmo to have instanced content and the worst game launch ive ever seen
First Impressions: Anarchy Online
Find out what happens when you crash on a distant planet...and crash, and crash, and crash...
http://pc.ign.com/articles/096/096621p1.html
if you read the first impressions,
the reviewer claims that, for 2001, AO is the best mmo out there for *innovation and elegance*
but he cant recommend buying it because of the launch bugs
a game has to sell too
-- and players care more about their wallets and a bugfree/lagfree game than innovation
HAS POTENTIAL wont sell a game no matter how much innovation it has
EQ2 fan sites
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
you entirely missed my point
past mmos that offered innovations -- FAILED because they were too buggy
if you read the wiki links that I provided, it clearly states on reception,
both Shadowbane and Horizons were plagued by a buggy launch
I also stated that AO was the worst launch ive ever personally experienced
the 1st impressions link itself is called Crash, Crash, Crash -- how much more clear than can it be?
bugs killed the game
you get ONE CHANCE to make good 1st impressions with players
EQ2 fan sites
The word innovation is irrelevant, past mmos without 'innovation' have also been buggy so you can factor out that word. I guess what you are saying is that the more complicated the mmorg the more skilled and resourced the dev house needs to be to pull it off, which applies to any product. Mmorgs are however more complicated by nature, so the failure rate will be higher.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Hmm... I think I got your point just fine, and now you're trying to back-pedal.
Yes, you talk about them being plagued by buggy launches... and you connect those games, in each case, to them "trying to be innovative".
You make three general statements, and discuss 3 different MMOs (Shadowbane, Horizons and AO) which all clearly correlate poor releases with their developers "trying to be innovative".
"but the history of mmos has shown that with innovation comes lag and buggy commercial release"
"mmos have tried for innovation w poor results"
You make this statement about AO in particular, adding emphasis to the "innovation and elegance" part as if to further prove your point..
"AO is the best mmo out there for *innovation and elegance*... but he cant recommend buying it because of the launch bugs"
You conclude your post with a statement that people "care more about their wallets and a bugfree/lagfree game than innovation".
For that last statement in particular, I pointed out that those MMOs did poorly because they were troubled by technical/launch issues and such. That they tried to be innovative has nothing to do with why more people didn't/don't play them.
You characterize "a bugfree/lagfree game" and "innovation" as though they're somehow mutually exclusive and people have to choose between one or the other. They aren't, and people don't. That is another reason why your argument is flawed.
Further, you then mention WoW as a successful game that "didn't try to be innovative" and is a "themepark", as though those two factors are why it was successful, in the same way as "trying to innovate" is why the others were troubled.
Other themepark MMOs that haven't tried to be innovative have launched and performed poorly as well, for the same reason. They didn't have a capable or experienced enough developer behind them.
You are clearly and repeatedly correlating "innovation" with "troubled games" throughout your entire post. So, I pointed out that "trying to be innovative" isn't what hurt those games.
Don't try spinning you way out of it now because your logic is shown to be flawed. That looks rather dishonest.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
From a coding/development perspective innovation does not necessarily equate to a more complicated build. Building innovations can sometimes have the advantage that it does not have any legacy issues to deal with so can be cleaner to build and test.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D