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more than just to-the-death combat and crafting. where is the innovation?
TheDarkCat66
Member Posts: 13
Honestly I don't get why MMORPG's are just literal clones of one another. The only gameplay types are "Clean House Combat" where the player is suppose to massacre hundreds of NPC's who refuse to help one another because they aren't "pulled" and IF...IF we are lucky crafting which is usually done as a rush feature.
Where is the innovation? Vanguard tried diplomacy which alot of people liked but i think that was boring, although a step in the right direction. At least UO had the parlor games :
Guild Wars 2, for example, is hyped to be the wow-killer, yet all we will be able to do is combat & craft (if we're lucky). Dynamic events will be nothing more than spawns of NPC's which we have to slaughter. The end.
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Its lot easier to throw around words like INNOVATION. But what kind of innovation you are looking for? would be nice if you explain it. But the one that works and not innovation for sake of innovating. example FFXIV.
i suspect talk about the weather with the spawned mobs from the dynamic events encounters would be even more tiring.
Sersly now. I believe evry company now on, must focus on gameplay's depth and variety on players choises on what they could possibly do in the game from the time they login till the time they r out.
Players should be honestly FREE to do whatever they feel like.
Adventuring?
crafting?
raise their status on a deep diplomacy system?
dungeon runs and raids?
arenas ? meaningfull open world pvp?weekends pvp tournaments aka colosseum? guild vs guild sieges and wars? rvr wars ? destroy enemy towns and capitals?
thievery and tricksters aka Ultima online?
Every dev now on that tries to develop an mmorpg,if they want to earn the majority of game's comunnity 's respect must focus at last in those 2 factors. Gameplay depth and variety in player's choises
It is only a wow-killer to a small group of overzealous fanboys, to the rest it will just be a really good mmorpg. There is more than combat & crafting, namely mini games and a personal storyline. Dynamic Events are not just about killing NPC's although that is the majority.
But aside from combat what exactly do you want in your mmorpg since that's pretty much the most important feature in mmorpgs? Shouldn't combat itself be innovated rather than adding additional features which don't have much to do with combat at all? Do you want sandbox mmorpgs instead? If so, then that's not really innovation since there have been sandbox mmorpgs around for quite some time. It might help if you clear this up first.
Um it was pretty obvious what kind of innovation I'm looking for in the OP.
Anything that isn't Massacre-Everyone-While-Their-Friends-Watch Combat & crafting which the devs added without any real attention.
Really don't know why you're asking this question since it's entirely clear in the OP. Anything that ISNT a copy of Nonsensical Combat or Unpolished Crafting.
Nope nothing is obvious in your post and that is the problem with majority of posts on this forums. people say i want innovation but never explain what kind of innovation. I am looking for specifics to have a clear discussion with you regarding the fresh, new and original features that you expect devs to add to MMORPGS which also require their full attention.
APB: Reloaded.
Well, Dynamic Events ARE an upgrade from questing and static environment.
But you're looking for other things to do than combat or crafting?
GW2 will have buckets of minigames, about 50 or so I believe, and if you've ever been part of GW's events, then you know how entertaining and completely different gameplay they can be (I always liked the snowball fights)
TERA will have politics that is linked to territory control (and taxes and such).
TSW will have ARG's, Investigation missions and Sabotage missions, which are puzzle quests, mystery quests where you need to figure stuff out to progress in them using RL resources, and the Sabotage missions are more alike stealthbased missions as in Metal Gear Solid or Thief.
GW2 and SWTOR will have lots of 'hidden' or hard to reach secluded places that are designed to be hard to discover or reach, that encourages thorough exploration.
ArcheAge will have raising your own farmlands and player towns.
Well, that's what I could think of right away. But it seems more to me than just combat or crafting.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I hear you OP. I guess Minecraft shows what players crave: Creation and destruction: Impact and interaction. I was reading-up on the Hero Engine recently and watching this small introduction video and it struck me that a lot of players would enjoy this as actual "gameplay" a lot more than combat/story. Obviously some programming/scripting knowledge would be needed or more high-level IDE/UI synergy (!).
But aside from that, I think without defending GW2, it will be great to see what the devs at ArenaNet have come up with lore/story/combat/art etc... so I will enjoy this game albeit the combat is the major interaction and following some interesting stories might get me immersed in some fantasy lore for a change. I can take it for what it is, but I would like more interactions in more MMOs.
Perhaps ArchAge will step this up another level?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Shastra has a very good point. Saying you want innovation and immersion is no different from sayng "I want something different." It really doesn't explain what you want.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
you can always go and play second life.
also there is eve online, as much as some people hate it there are more legal ways to get gold than in most mmos.
doing missions, mining, crafting and doing the 'find cheap, sell high' market kind of thing is what most people see.
most people know that eve is one of the harshest (if thats' the right word) game worlds.
so... connect the dots.
creating succesful corp running models, selling knowledge, also.... being a spy, griefing. stealing. catching peoples ships and demanding pay. scamming the market. all that without murder and crafting!
Innovation more or less died with WoW. Now there is a competition who can make the best WoW clone and I guess for some people that is innovation.
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Nonsense. Anybody who's saying that has blinded themselves to the genre for the simple reason that they don't like the direction it takes and therefore aren't interested in any innovation anyway.
Because it's happening in MMO's they don't like to play anyway, so also any improvements or innovations in them they couldn't care less about.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Considering everything that has been going on in terms of facebook games... its unbelivable that MMOs are not watching and taking note.
Many games could use most of their current features to create a Farmville version lite into the game. Allow ppl to buy land (instanced tho :S) and grow it - build a house on it and show off their rewards and ahcivements.
WOW would for example be just perfect for this. You could keep all your alts there and even interact with them - shared storage - let 2-3 random pets roam around the house.. have 2 -3 random mounts flying or running outside. Then ofc the focus on new profession as farmer with many possible outcomes.
Would be very easy to implement and would add something other than just go kill that and dark and gloomy to the game.
I've gotta agree with Maverick again on this one. The OP is complain about a lack of innovation and a lack of non-combat related activities in MMOs, when there are tons of MMOs coming out in the next couple months, which are planning to bring a fair amont of innovation and non-combat related activities. So basically the OP has closed him/herself away from MMOs and is just dismissing what these new MMOs will have to offer, as just clones of previous iterations.
So my advice to the OP is just to take a break and come back to the genre in a year and by then you'll be able to find something you want.
Innovation is not only doing something existing in a different way but also an improvment of something. I have not seen any significant improvment, just different rehashes of ThemePark features. So for me there is no innovation.
But sure, people who think Rifts which are essentially randomly spawned mobs an improvment may see this as innovative. Same with only being able to bind a limited number of powers, like in DCU. For them these may be innovative, for me it is nothing worth to call home about.
Also speaking about upcoming MMORPGs is pointless as we are hearing only what the devs want us to hear, or rather their PR department. I will wait until those games are released to see if the implementation actually is an evolution or not.
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Well techanically innovation is only about doing something in a different way. Evolution is about an improvement in what has a lready been done. So people can say that WAR's public quests were an innovative idea and Rift's rifts are an evolution of WAR's public quests.
Also speaking about upcoming MMOs, we are seeing actual gameplay demonstrations of these features. So we know that they work on their own but not when you take in the entire scope of the MMO in question.
Don't bother. It's clear that you hate all themepark styled MMO's, enough for you to ignore any innovation or improvements they brought. That attitude won't change with the new MMO's: if you ignored any improvements and innovations in the past because it happened in MMO's that you disliked or even despised, then it'll be the same for the new MMO's if you taste a hint of themepark in them.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If I understand the OP correctly, he is asking for a game with better crafting than we have seen lately, and a smaller focus on combat. Neither request is too far out of bounds, IMHO.
First of all, just because these two points haven't been addressed in an MMO to the OP's satisfaction, does not mean there has been no innovation. I belive innovation has been occuring, but, as evidenced by Yamota's posts, it seems innovation is in the eye of the beholder. Where some of us may see innovation in current games, no matter how small the innovation may be, others will only see innovation if an entire game is totally new. Some will say that no theme park can be innovative because of WoW's dominance. They will say that only a sandbox can be innovative. Which is BS. But, once again, we see what we want to.
As for the specific concerns in the OP, I'm sure combat in MMOs can be drastically altered from the current format that has dominated for 15 years. How? Beats me, I'm no dev. I would like to challenge the OP to at least offer up some suggestions as to how his 2 points could be innovated. Rather than just say "I want innovative combat and crafting", tell us how you think it could be done better.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
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Technically yes but doing something in a different way resulting in failure or no progress is not innovation. There needs to be some kind of measurable enhancement to be considered innovation.
One can argue that Rifts rifts are an evolution and/or innovation but after playing both I dont agree at all. WARs PQs were much more varied, both in content and conept, where as Rifts are just spawning of more and more mobs. The only thing that Rifts were better in is that they spawned in random places and could interlap with other rifts. I got tired of Rifts much quicker than all the PQs that WAR had.
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Mobs standing around waiting to get hit and no change in environment, vs content changes in an area where randomly mob groups are spawned, start roaming the area, creating footholds, attacking locations instead of just standing around and interact and fight with eachother as well if it's different factions next to environment texture changes and object additions accompanying them. Sounds like a clear jump and improvement to me upon the static PvE content where mobs just stand around or move in their little circle or path .
The fact that you didn't like the Rifts doesn't mean that it wasn't an innovation or feature evolution. It just means that it was an innovation that you weren't interested in.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
ok I concede to that but for it being a true innovation then you really need a considerable amount of people seeing it as innovation, otherwise what would be the point?
But again, ok maybe alot of people actually do enjoy these Rifts over PQs but I heard alot about them getting boring, really fast so I guess the jury is out on that one.
And I stand by my statement that there has hardly been any innovation in the genre since WoW. Instanced PvP battle grounds, dynamic, roaming mob spawns (which UO kinda had, but anyway) and only a couple of more (EQ 2s reactive crafting, etc) in what, 6-7 years? That is pretty bad.
On the other hand we have seen tons of WoW clones with little or no innovation and that is what I am talking about. They are just talking the basic WoW concept and adding one or two new features. That is not breaking new grounds, that is just trying to jump on the WoW wagon and try to steal their subs.
True innovation for me is something that radically changes the way we do things, kinda like the iPhone or iPad (no I dont like Apple, but I must admit they are innovative). Where are the Apples of the MMORPG industry? All I see are Nokias and Sony Ericssons.
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I find Apple a very bad example. When looking at the features, Apple has hardly anything innovative at all, it's design and ease-of-use that are its strongpoints. It's a bit like WoW like that.
If it's about giving examples of innovativeness, then I'd say 3D TV, or motion controllers that Nintendo introduced with the Wii, that's innovative.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think that watching that video tells us why there's so little innovation in the industry; the tools available are still too primitive. The building blocks are too small. Game developers need a toolkit that allows them to say "Give me a wilderness." Blam. Wilderness. "Give me a town of 500 people." Blam. Town.
Then there's the behavior choices. Pathfinding tools? Oh please. Toolkits need tools for tactics. Flanking. Running away from superior numbers. Sneaking up on enemies. Patience. Aggression. Feints.
How about the problem of masses of characters doing things in the same space? Now there's a problem worthy of toolkit developers. How can an MMO realize its potential when the best we can do is have 20 players beat on 20 monsters in a private instance? Let's see a toolkit that allows 200 players to show up at random where there are 1000 monsters and still work. Throw in all those tactical choices and you've got a real scrum on your hands.
I think that we won't see much innovation until the toolkit building blocks are large enough to allow developers to pursue a variety of ideas. Right now, they seem to be limited to the single-player online experience. Here is my hand-crafted wilderness with its hand-crafted content. Go run the quests, kill the monsters and power up. That's what the toolkit developers are shooting for because that's what games are like these days.
I don't mean to dump on the toolkit developers. They're doing a great job, and I applaud the fact that they're working on toolkits at all. But the toolkits need to tackle the development problem at a much higher level if the MMO genre is going to move beyond its current state.
Its UI design and ease of use is exactly what IS so innovative. Innovation is not just about technical features. But anyway it start to sound that you are arguing just for the sense of arguing because 3D TV and motion controllers are just another examples of real innovation where as in the MMORPG genre we have to be content with randomly spawned mobs (which UO also had 11 years ago but on a much smaller scale).
What about something more drastic like AI communities that can be permentantly destroyed or expand?
What about being able to actually change the landscape permentantly? Xsyon got that but is a quite terrible game in other regards and far from a tripple A game.
What about real lineage? Like you age and then get to continue as your ofspring?
What about the possibility to be able for characters to actually rise above others and become a true monarch or a dragon slayer, which others cannot due to the shere skill/luck/persistence needed for it and then become a true legend on a server?
I mean there are in so many different ways devs can break the mold and do something ground breaking but they are spinning on the same basic, casual concepts of class based, quest advanced in a static world where everyone are heroes which in fact means that no one is.
The industry is simply in a decadent state right now.
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