In 2002 there were 3 top MMOs in America. Everquest, DAoC, and a distant, but not embarassingly so, thrird Asheron's Call.
By contrast today we have one MMO that completely and utterly embarrasses the rest of the genre. WoW is so in control that they could lose half their subscribers and still be number one by 10 miles. Why is it 7 years after WoW released no MMO has even come close to taking the top spot?
Developers should be embarassed by this. Gamers should be dismayed. We've been stuck in this pathetic rut for too long. Players that have been around are leaving, if not already gone, and newcomers are seeing a genre whose quality has gone backwards.
I think we'd be hard-pressed to find another industry that has seen a total lack of innovation with an erosion in quality. I'd love to see the retention of players that the genre is experiencing. My gut tells me everyday more and more people get sick of the nickle and diming fed-ex quest-a-thons, and fewer people are jumping in.
The industry may being doing fine monetarily due to the only innovation this genre has seen, which is the cash shop(Hey buy your items instead of playing to earn them!). But sometimes victory is fleeting.
How about because WoW has 7 years of playerbase and fans under their belt? 12 Million subscribers didn't happen over night. It took years to gain the massive population of loyal fans that they have. WoW is like microsoft, it's really not that great (actually it's terrible) but it's timing was perfect and it's popularity is viral.
That doesn't explain why for the past 7 years this genre has seen complete trash being released. It only explains why people continue to play WoW. Its still the most popular game despite 7 years. That is an unreal feat that shows Blizzards awesomeness, or a complete lack of competent competitors. I postulate that its a complete lack of competence by competitors for the past 7 years, and I can give you a lot of examples.
No, this genre is not doing well, which is why not too long ago MMORPG.com had a news story about companies stopping development on MMOs(aside from the big 2 there is little on the horizon compared to years past). I think a proponent for that was named Ralph Koster, whom has quite a bit of clout with the industry insiders.
If you can't see the decline the industry is in then there's no point trying to explain it to you.
Smarter people than I will be sure to try though.
This must be one of the stranger conclusions of the MMO market I see flying around.
I see it like this:
- there are several places but certainly mmorpg.com among them, where disillusioned, jaded and burnout oldtime MMO players gather around, sort of a last resting house for MMO vets before a lot of them say their goodbyes to the MMO scene for good (or at least for the next few years). Naturally you'll find a lot of talk at such sites about how bad the state of MMO gaming is and how 'in the past everything was better', exactly the same talk as you hear from grumpy old men about how good things were when they were young.
- just like with those grumpy old men, the same applies to all these disillusioned, disenfranchised and burnout MMO vets: to them the past indeed may have been better because that's what they grew up with and what they're comfortable with. But things are always in motion, moving away from how things were in the past. It doesn't mean it was better or worse, in some ways it was better in some ways it was worse, but most often it was just different, but to older people and MMO vets glorifying the past, how things were back then was just something they were more comfortable with and for both groups alike it makes them unable to keep in touch and enjoy how things are in the present. They're stuck in the past, and very likely their tastes and preferences and likings will remain there, stuck in the past.
- as for MMO history, WoW caused an unprecedented rise of the MMO market, singlehandedly causing an influx of 10+ million gamers into a market that before WoW had only seen maybe 1-2 million in total tops. Of course that brought a change of the MMO scene with it. And of course a lot of MMO gamers who liked how it was before, wouldn't like those changes. But to those millions of new MMO gamers, it certainly was a time of great fun, a peak of MMO gaming. Just like the MMO scene felt like a peak to those who started playing MMO's with games like EQ, UO, AC or DAoC when they entered the MMO scene.
- as for the decline of MMO industry, utter bollocks and 'old vet resting house' talk. There's more money poured into MMO's than there ever was, more MMO's entering the scene than ever had, and with the expected releases of this and next year, more interesting MMO's arriving than we ever saw before in such a time frame. In fact, in the 12 years of MMO gaming I don't think I've seen a more exciting year or 2 of MMO releases than the period of 2011-2012.
MMORPGs are dead, we're in the era of MMOGs.
Somewhere between now and a decade ago we lost the RP aspect of MMOs, and it looks to have happened shortly after WoW's freak success luring in the masses.
Maybe developers finaly realized 1 out of every 20 people actually role-play in RPG's. So now their concentrating on the MMO side of things which means more PvP interaction, competetive gameplay, and content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not. If this is how MMORPG's are "dieing" then I guess I'm ok with them "dieing".
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
In 2002 there were 3 top MMOs in America. Everquest, DAoC, and a distant, but not embarassingly so, thrird Asheron's Call.
By contrast today we have one MMO that completely and utterly embarrasses the rest of the genre. WoW is so in control that they could lose half their subscribers and still be number one by 10 miles. Why is it 7 years after WoW released no MMO has even come close to taking the top spot?
Developers should be embarassed by this. Gamers should be dismayed. We've been stuck in this pathetic rut for too long. Players that have been around are leaving, if not already gone, and newcomers are seeing a genre whose quality has gone backwards.
I think we'd be hard-pressed to find another industry that has seen a total lack of innovation with an erosion in quality. I'd love to see the retention of players that the genre is experiencing. My gut tells me everyday more and more people get sick of the nickle and diming fed-ex quest-a-thons, and fewer people are jumping in.
The industry may being doing fine monetarily due to the only innovation this genre has seen, which is the cash shop(Hey buy your items instead of playing to earn them!). But sometimes victory is fleeting.
How about because WoW has 7 years of playerbase and fans under their belt? 12 Million subscribers didn't happen over night. It took years to gain the massive population of loyal fans that they have. WoW is like microsoft, it's really not that great (actually it's terrible) but it's timing was perfect and it's popularity is viral.
That doesn't explain why for the past 7 years this genre has seen complete trash being released. It only explains why people continue to play WoW. Its still the most popular game despite 7 years. That is an unreal feat that shows Blizzards awesomeness, or a complete lack of competent competitors. I postulate that its a complete lack of competence by competitors for the past 7 years, and I can give you a lot of examples.
No, this genre is not doing well, which is why not too long ago MMORPG.com had a news story about companies stopping development on MMOs(aside from the big 2 there is little on the horizon compared to years past). I think a proponent for that was named Ralph Koster, whom has quite a bit of clout with the industry insiders.
It explains why when people branch off of WoW their still looking for a WoW like system that their used to. therefor when they don't get that taste of WoW they either go back or pull the "WoW clone" card because the new game didn't do WoW justice. All games since WoW are complete trash? That's an offely bold statement. it's funny how this site is the only site where I see all this talk about the MMO Industry going under. All you veterans must be "more in the loop" than the rest of us to know something like that. Or your just pissed off because games aren't what they were 10 years ago because they simply can't be. Read the OP. Welcome to the revolution, join it or gtfo.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Somewhere between now and a decade ago we lost the RP aspect of MMOs, and it looks to have happened shortly after WoW's freak success luring in the masses.
Maybe developers finaly realized 1 out of every 20 people actually role-play in RPG's. So now their concentrating on the MMO side of things which means more PvP interaction, competetive gameplay, and content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not. If this is how MMORPG's are "dieing" then I guess I'm ok with them "dieing".
PvP and "competitive gameplay" does not an MMO make. It's this kind of thought that results in MMOs with meaningless, repetitive, boxed PvP matches.
As per "content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not"...
Huh? If anything, MMO today are the exact antithesis to what you just said. In MMOs today, every single thing you do has virtually zero impact. Everything of meaning is instanced or phased, so only you on your character actually sees it. And even then, in many cases it just resets for you to do all over again. In the old MMOs, you as a player could actually make a meaningful impact on the game world. Whether it was by effecting MOB spawns, creating buildings in the world that provided useful functions to other players (UO, SWG), crafting items that other players actually needed and wanted, etc.
MMOs are turning into single player games with lobbies. There's less and less need to interact with other players, let alone to depend on them. We've gone from expansive virtual worlds to explore and carve out your own little place, to poorly thought out quest-chain treadmills that give every single player the exact same copy-pasted "you're a hero!" experience. Sorry to say, but when everyone is a "hero" for doing the exact same thing as everyone else around them, then no one is.
It explains why when people branch off of WoW their still looking for a WoW like system that their used to. therefor when they don't get that taste of WoW they either go back or pull the "WoW clone" card because the new game didn't do WoW justice. All games since WoW are complete trash? That's an offely bold statement. it's funny how this site is the only site where I see all this talk about the MMO Industry going under. All you veterans must be "more in the loop" than the rest of us to know something like that. Or your just pissed off because games aren't what they were 10 years ago because they simply can't be. Read the OP. Welcome to the revolution, join it or gtfo.
In 2002 there were 3 top MMOs in America. Everquest, DAoC, and a distant, but not embarassingly so, thrird Asheron's Call.
By contrast today we have one MMO that completely and utterly embarrasses the rest of the genre.
A flawed reasoning. We have quite a number of MMO's that easily have the same number of subs/players as those former top MMO's had. The problem is that in the eyes of many people such numbers these days aren't seen any more as successful or healthy but as fail.
That's one of the larger annoyances that WoW brought: since WoW only numbers of 0.5-1 million subs or higher are seen as a 'success' or healthily active MMO.
Originally posted by Golelorn
No, this genre is not doing well, which is why not too long ago MMORPG.com had a news story about companies stopping development on MMOs(aside from the big 2 there is little on the horizon compared to years past). I think a proponent for that was named Ralph Koster, whom has quite a bit of clout with the industry insiders.
Fatalism for the sake of dwelling in fatalism.
The MMO scene has seen enough interesting MMO's released the past 7 years even if they weren't to your taste. And there are definitely more interesting MMO's upcoming than we've seen for many years, and certainly not only 2.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Somewhere between now and a decade ago we lost the RP aspect of MMOs, and it looks to have happened shortly after WoW's freak success luring in the masses.
Maybe developers finaly realized 1 out of every 20 people actually role-play in RPG's. So now their concentrating on the MMO side of things which means more PvP interaction, competetive gameplay, and content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not. If this is how MMORPG's are "dieing" then I guess I'm ok with them "dieing".
PvP and "competitive gameplay" does not an MMO make. It's this kind of thought that results in MMOs with meaningless, repetitive, boxed PvP matches.
As per "content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not"...
Huh? If anything, MMO today are the exact antithesis to what you just said. In MMOs todaay, every single thing you do has virtually zero impact. Everything of meaning is instanced or phased, so only you on your character actually sees it. And even then, in many cases it just resets for you to do all over again. In the old MMOs, you as a player could actually make a meaningful impact on the game. Whether it was by effecting MOB spawns, creating buildings in the world that provided useful functions to other players (UO, SWG), crafting items that other players actually needed and wanted, etc.
MMOs are turning into single player games with lobbies. There's less and less need to interact with other players, let alone to depend on them. We've gone from expansive virtual worlds to explore and carve out your own little place, to poorly throught out quest-chain treadmills that give every single player the same "you're a hero!" experience. Sorry to say, but when everyone is a "hero" and does the exact same thing, no one is.
Yes because in old MMORPG's with that massively large playerbase that didn't exist it was much easier to group and be a part of the community. Everybody knew everybody and they all held hands on their boring rat killing quest adventures, how fun that must have been. Killing things over and over again and pretending that there was a good story behind why you were constantly grinding away.
Today's MMO's can show you how a story is supposed to play out (through phasing and instanced events) rather than tell you what your supposed to think is happening. I'm sorry but to me that's alot more entertaining then killing rats over and over and over again (but with my fellow group members) until I've killed enough to feel like I've somehow made an impact on the world.
As for effecting mob spawns, creating buildings and crafting, all of those still exist in modern sandboxes.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
This year is looking great for MMO's, with games like GW2, ArcheAge,
The trouble is that ever year has LOOKED like it's gonna be great... it has been how they have turned out that has been the issue.
Hopefully this year will end up actually being as great as it looks at the moment, but the reason so many bitch about the poorness of MMOs in general is that when you get to December and look back it's just always pretty much full of depressing fail.
Fingers crossed this yeear will be different, but so far I am less then impressed.
It explains why when people branch off of WoW their still looking for a WoW like system that their used to. therefor when they don't get that taste of WoW they either go back or pull the "WoW clone" card because the new game didn't do WoW justice. All games since WoW are complete trash? That's an offely bold statement. it's funny how this site is the only site where I see all this talk about the MMO Industry going under. All you veterans must be "more in the loop" than the rest of us to know something like that. Or your just pissed off because games aren't what they were 10 years ago because they simply can't be. Read the OP. Welcome to the revolution, join it or gtfo.
Except you're wrong.
good argument chap!
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Huh? If anything, MMO today are the exact antithesis to what you just said. In MMOs today, every single thing you do has virtually zero impact. Everything of meaning is instanced or phased, so only you on your character actually sees it. And even then, in many cases it just resets for you to do all over again. In the old MMOs, you as a player could actually make a meaningful impact on the game world. Whether it was by effecting MOB spawns, creating buildings in the world that provided useful functions to other players (UO, SWG), crafting items that other players actually needed and wanted, etc.
Sorry, mate, you could make even less an impact on the gameworld in EQ than in a lot of newer MMO's, that wasn't the reason for its success at all that you could change the gameworld.
Sounds to me like you're a sandbox fan, so no wonder that you dislike all non-sandbox MMO's, fully understandable.
Originally posted by Aguitha
Doing fine ? Guess that's why i havent played a single MMO past the fist free month since 2006.
I think you help prove my case that sites like mmorpg.com are where the 'grumpy old men' oldtime MMO gamers hang out, sort of a retirement house for MMO vets, MMO gamers who don't even play MMO's anymore but love to complain about how 'in the past everything was better'.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It explains why when people branch off of WoW their still looking for a WoW like system that their used to. therefor when they don't get that taste of WoW they either go back or pull the "WoW clone" card because the new game didn't do WoW justice. All games since WoW are complete trash? That's an offely bold statement. it's funny how this site is the only site where I see all this talk about the MMO Industry going under. All you veterans must be "more in the loop" than the rest of us to know something like that. Or your just pissed off because games aren't what they were 10 years ago because they simply can't be. Read the OP. Welcome to the revolution, join it or gtfo.
Except you're wrong.
good argument chap!
I call a game a WoW clone because when I'm playing it feels like I'm playing WoW. I'm not looking for a "WoW like" game. I want something that's very different.
I think some like myself just want to see more quality mmos released. Twenty mmos can be released within a year and only 1-2 actually be any good. The gaming industry in genral needs to stop mass producting mmos like McDonald's hamburgers. Sooner or later you are gonna start feeling sick.
I'm sorry, but if you can't see that games like Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, Firefall, ArcheAge and WoD, can offer a quality gameplay experience then I fear that you've lost touch with MMO's and they you might have grown out of it.
I'm currently playing Rift, it is not an improvement in the genre regardless how many people like it. SWTOR, GW2 and all the rest "might" turn out to be the 2nd coming of MMORPG gaming, but if history is any indicator of future success then that's not the way to bet.
Perhaps I'm a burnt-out, grumpy old gamer but on the same token many folks come off as a wide eyed, fanboyish optimists who can't see the forest for the trees sometimes, or the tell tale signs of more of the same.
So while I hope your predictions are correct, because I'd love to see a great game come along, and its likely I'll play most of the game you listed above, I'll still consider the genre in decline and go so far as to predict a large scale implosion in the next five years and a huge scaling back to a more saner time.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you can't see the decline the industry is in then there's no point trying to explain it to you.
Smarter people than I will be sure to try though.
This must be one of the stranger conclusions of the MMO market I see flying around.
I see it like this:
- there are several places but certainly mmorpg.com among them, where disillusioned, jaded and burnout oldtime MMO players gather around, sort of a last resting house for MMO vets before a lot of them say their goodbyes to the MMO scene for good (or at least for the next few years). Naturally you'll find a lot of talk at such sites about how bad the state of MMO gaming is and how 'in the past everything was better', exactly the same talk as you hear from grumpy old men about how good things were when they were young.
- just like with those grumpy old men, the same applies to all these disillusioned, disenfranchised and burnout MMO vets: to them the past indeed may have been better because that's what they grew up with and what they're comfortable with. But things are always in motion, moving away from how things were in the past. It doesn't mean it was better or worse, in some ways it was better in some ways it was worse, but most often it was just different, but to older people and MMO vets glorifying the past, how things were back then was just something they were more comfortable with and for both groups alike it makes them unable to keep in touch and enjoy how things are in the present. They're stuck in the past, and very likely their tastes and preferences and likings will remain there, stuck in the past.
- as for MMO history, WoW caused an unprecedented rise of the MMO market, singlehandedly causing an influx of 10+ million gamers into a market that before WoW had only seen maybe 1-2 million in total tops. Of course that brought a change of the MMO scene with it. And of course a lot of MMO gamers who liked how it was before, wouldn't like those changes. But to those millions of new MMO gamers, it certainly was a time of great fun, a peak of MMO gaming. Just like the MMO scene felt like a peak to those who started playing MMO's with games like EQ, UO, AC or DAoC when they entered the MMO scene.
- as for the decline of MMO industry, utter bollocks and 'old vet resting house' talk. There's more money poured into MMO's than there ever was, more MMO's entering the scene than ever had, and with the expected releases of this and next year, more interesting MMO's arriving than we ever saw before in such a time frame. In fact, in the 12 years of MMO gaming I don't think I've seen a more exciting year or 2 of MMO releases than the period of 2011-2012.
Most people who have been playing MMORPG's for 14 years have seen the entire genra dwindle. None of these games today provide any kind of challange for the adult. They are mostly children's games.
Everquest, Ashron's Call & DAOC were not children games. So us "Oldtimers" are disgruntled, were stupified why these kids keep paying for games that suck... only to see them go Free to Play, etc. Because their business model won't support their COE's vision of millions.
Did you ever read the thread that asked what made older games more challenging? Most of the answers as to why they were more challenging boiled down to tedium and poor design.
That because the author was not knowledgable of the facts, mechanic & skill sets.
In fact, it was not due to tedium, it was more challenging, because u had to think more, do something other's were not & find your own path. Not the same ole themepark walk-0threw that everyone must do now today. I could've put that author to shame, but I refrained.
The design of EQ has not been matched to this date. If u don't understand the mechanics of why, then u too are are ignorant as the author.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
It explains why when people branch off of WoW their still looking for a WoW like system that their used to. therefor when they don't get that taste of WoW they either go back or pull the "WoW clone" card because the new game didn't do WoW justice. All games since WoW are complete trash? That's an offely bold statement. it's funny how this site is the only site where I see all this talk about the MMO Industry going under. All you veterans must be "more in the loop" than the rest of us to know something like that. Or your just pissed off because games aren't what they were 10 years ago because they simply can't be. Read the OP. Welcome to the revolution, join it or gtfo.
Except you're wrong.
good argument chap!
I call a game a WoW clone because when I'm playing it feels like I'm playing WoW. I'm not looking for a "WoW like" game. I want something that's very different.
Alright, then pretend I didnt say that tiny part that you disected out of there (of course there's other reasons depending on different people). My statement still stands.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Didn't have time to read the whole thread, but to the OP: very optimistic point of view, nice change of pace from most of the shit posted on here:)
Yes I have a dream And its not some MLK dream for equality. I wanna own a decommissioned lighthouse And I wanna live at the top And nobody knows I live there. And theres a button that I can press, and launch that lighthouse into space.
Somewhere between now and a decade ago we lost the RP aspect of MMOs, and it looks to have happened shortly after WoW's freak success luring in the masses.
Maybe developers finaly realized 1 out of every 20 people actually role-play in RPG's. So now their concentrating on the MMO side of things which means more PvP interaction, competetive gameplay, and content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not. If this is how MMORPG's are "dieing" then I guess I'm ok with them "dieing".
PvP and "competitive gameplay" does not an MMO make. It's this kind of thought that results in MMOs with meaningless, repetitive, boxed PvP matches.
As per "content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not"...
Huh? If anything, MMO today are the exact antithesis to what you just said. In MMOs todaay, every single thing you do has virtually zero impact. Everything of meaning is instanced or phased, so only you on your character actually sees it. And even then, in many cases it just resets for you to do all over again. In the old MMOs, you as a player could actually make a meaningful impact on the game. Whether it was by effecting MOB spawns, creating buildings in the world that provided useful functions to other players (UO, SWG), crafting items that other players actually needed and wanted, etc.
MMOs are turning into single player games with lobbies. There's less and less need to interact with other players, let alone to depend on them. We've gone from expansive virtual worlds to explore and carve out your own little place, to poorly throught out quest-chain treadmills that give every single player the same "you're a hero!" experience. Sorry to say, but when everyone is a "hero" and does the exact same thing, no one is.
Yes because in old MMORPG's with that massively large playerbase that didn't exist it was much easier to group and be a part of the community. Everybody knew everybody and they all held hands on their boring rat killing quest adventures, how fun that must have been. Killing things over and over again and pretending that there was a good story behind why you were constantly grinding away.
Today's MMO's can show you how a story is supposed to play out (through phasing and instanced events) rather than tell you what your supposed to think is happening. I'm sorry but to me that's alot more entertaining then killing rats over and over and over again (but with my fellow group members) until I've killed enough to feel like I've somehow made an impact on the world.
As for effecting mob spawns, creating buildings and crafting, all of those still exist in modern sandboxes.
I can tell from this paragraph, you weren't there, so you don't understand how much fun it really was. In the end, mindlessly killing stuff in video games is boring no matter how its presented and the good times come from the people you interact with.
Which is why a game like EVE is actually more socially entertaining than WOW or its many clones, because the players make the story, and no one makes a better story than the players themselves.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm currently playing Rift, it is not an improvement in the genre regardless how many people like it. SWTOR, GW2 and all the rest "might" turn out to be the 2nd coming of MMORPG gaming, but if history is any indicator of future success then that's not the way to bet.
Perhaps I'm a burnt-out, grumpy old gamer but on the same token many folks come off as a wide eyed, fanboyish optimists who can't see the forest for the trees sometimes, or the tell tale signs of more of the same.
So while I hope your predictions are correct, because I'd love to see a great game come along, and its likely I'll play most of the game you listed above, I'll still consider the genre in decline and go so far as to predict a large scale implosion in the next five years and a huge scaling back to a more saner time.
Rift is as far as I can see a solid addition to the MMO genre, nothing wrong with that, unless you're that burnt out on MMO's that you need something completely different to be able to get that MMO fix or MMO high.
My guess is that a lot of complainers here and on sites like this have just gotten burnt out and jaded after playing MMO's for thousands of hours. And even if they find a quality MMO with totally different gameplay, I doubt that they'll be able to enjoy these MMO's as much as they did enjoy MMO's in the past.
As for me, so far any MMO I've played I've been able to enjoy and never were my expectations pre-launch of such a kind that I got majorly disappointed after a launch. I could enjoy the MMO's I bought and played for what they offered, not for what I thought they might offer.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It explains why when people branch off of WoW their still looking for a WoW like system that their used to. therefor when they don't get that taste of WoW they either go back or pull the "WoW clone" card because the new game didn't do WoW justice. All games since WoW are complete trash? That's an offely bold statement. it's funny how this site is the only site where I see all this talk about the MMO Industry going under. All you veterans must be "more in the loop" than the rest of us to know something like that. Or your just pissed off because games aren't what they were 10 years ago because they simply can't be. Read the OP. Welcome to the revolution, join it or gtfo.
Except you're wrong.
good argument chap!
I call a game a WoW clone because when I'm playing it feels like I'm playing WoW. I'm not looking for a "WoW like" game. I want something that's very different.
Alright, then pretend I didnt say that tiny part that you disected out of there (of course there's other reasons depending on different people). My statement still stands.
I'll agree that not every mmo since WoW was trash but they were not great either. For me personally it's all been pretty meh. I have some hope for the list of mmos on the way. But you can't really blame people for their skepticism given the releases in the last couple years.
It's true, that I look at the game list here on site and see more dead games than thriving ones. Yet' the games that make it seem to pick up subscribers lately. MMORPGS... maybe aren't the dominant force in the MMO market but in spite of everything the industry seems healthy enough that many people are willing to try and field new games.
If anything, I'd say the industry is playing it too safe and has turned stagnant rather than dying out right now. Too many clones and refinements of older ideas with nothing really new on the horizon.... I think that's what people really mean when they say the industry is dying.
You've a lot of disinfranchised old vets tired of the same old thing with no hope present in the upcoming release lists.
Somewhere between now and a decade ago we lost the RP aspect of MMOs, and it looks to have happened shortly after WoW's freak success luring in the masses.
Maybe developers finaly realized 1 out of every 20 people actually role-play in RPG's. So now their concentrating on the MMO side of things which means more PvP interaction, competetive gameplay, and content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not. If this is how MMORPG's are "dieing" then I guess I'm ok with them "dieing".
PvP and "competitive gameplay" does not an MMO make. It's this kind of thought that results in MMOs with meaningless, repetitive, boxed PvP matches.
As per "content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not"...
Huh? If anything, MMO today are the exact antithesis to what you just said. In MMOs todaay, every single thing you do has virtually zero impact. Everything of meaning is instanced or phased, so only you on your character actually sees it. And even then, in many cases it just resets for you to do all over again. In the old MMOs, you as a player could actually make a meaningful impact on the game. Whether it was by effecting MOB spawns, creating buildings in the world that provided useful functions to other players (UO, SWG), crafting items that other players actually needed and wanted, etc.
MMOs are turning into single player games with lobbies. There's less and less need to interact with other players, let alone to depend on them. We've gone from expansive virtual worlds to explore and carve out your own little place, to poorly throught out quest-chain treadmills that give every single player the same "you're a hero!" experience. Sorry to say, but when everyone is a "hero" and does the exact same thing, no one is.
Yes because in old MMORPG's with that massively large playerbase that didn't exist it was much easier to group and be a part of the community. Everybody knew everybody and they all held hands on their boring rat killing quest adventures, how fun that must have been. Killing things over and over again and pretending that there was a good story behind why you were constantly grinding away.
Today's MMO's can show you how a story is supposed to play out (through phasing and instanced events) rather than tell you what your supposed to think is happening. I'm sorry but to me that's alot more entertaining then killing rats over and over and over again (but with my fellow group members) until I've killed enough to feel like I've somehow made an impact on the world.
As for effecting mob spawns, creating buildings and crafting, all of those still exist in modern sandboxes.
I can tell from this paragraph, you weren't there, so you don't understand how much fun it really was. In the end, mindlessly killing stuff in video games is boring no matter how its presented and the good times come from the people you interact with.
Which is why a game like EVE is actually more socially entertaining than WOW or its many clones, because the players make the story, and no one makes a better story than the players themselves.
True. Community and friends make for a much more enjoyable experience. However, apparently your still looking for that time when you and your set of friends had fond memories of grouping and questing together. That didn't make the MMO you played "better" than modern MMO's, you just had a better experience because of the people you were with. I have the same sort of great experiences with my friends in today's MMO's.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
If anything, I'd say the industry is playing it too safe and has turned stagnant rather than dying out right now. Too many clones and refinements of older ideas with nothing really new on the horizon.... I think that's what people really mean when they say the industry is dying.
If people are saying that then they aren't paying attention much to what the upcoming MMO's like GW2, TSW, ArcheAge and Firefall have to offer in features. Heck, even MMO's like Rift, TERA and SWTOR have some distinctive new ideas or implementations in them, not even talking about a Planetside Next, End of Nations or WoD.
Originally posted by i00x00i
True. Community and friends make for a much more enjoyable experience. However, apparently your still looking for that time when you and your set of friends had fond memories of grouping and questing together. That didn't make the MMO you played "better" than modern MMO's, you just had a better experience because of the people you were with. I have the same sort of great experiences with my friends in today's MMO's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm currently playing Rift, it is not an improvement in the genre regardless how many people like it. SWTOR, GW2 and all the rest "might" turn out to be the 2nd coming of MMORPG gaming, but if history is any indicator of future success then that's not the way to bet.
Perhaps I'm a burnt-out, grumpy old gamer but on the same token many folks come off as a wide eyed, fanboyish optimists who can't see the forest for the trees sometimes, or the tell tale signs of more of the same.
So while I hope your predictions are correct, because I'd love to see a great game come along, and its likely I'll play most of the game you listed above, I'll still consider the genre in decline and go so far as to predict a large scale implosion in the next five years and a huge scaling back to a more saner time.
Rift is as far as I can see a solid addition to the MMO genre, nothing wrong with that, unless you're that burnt out on MMO's that you need something completely different to be able to get that MMO fix or MMO high.
My guess is that a lot of complainers here and on sites like this have just gotten burnt out and jaded after playing MMO's for thousands of hours. And even if they find a quality MMO with totally different gameplay, I doubt that they'll be able to enjoy these MMO's as much as they did enjoy MMO's in the past.
As for me, so far any MMO I've played I've been able to enjoy and never were my expectations pre-launch of such a kind that I got majorly disappointed after a launch. I could enjoy the MMO's I bought and played for what they offered, not for what I thought they might offer.
But rift is an arcade game... meant to take WoW'ites to their promised land of glitz & glamour.
You have to look at game engine design & character hooks (what they can do/effect) and how that is played out within the game world. Lets face it, most people responding know very little about the games they play. The only know content.. or how to look content up.
Then whether or not, they have to "grind" to get whats on their shopping list. It's sad...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
I'm currently playing Rift, it is not an improvement in the genre regardless how many people like it. SWTOR, GW2 and all the rest "might" turn out to be the 2nd coming of MMORPG gaming, but if history is any indicator of future success then that's not the way to bet.
Perhaps I'm a burnt-out, grumpy old gamer but on the same token many folks come off as a wide eyed, fanboyish optimists who can't see the forest for the trees sometimes, or the tell tale signs of more of the same.
So while I hope your predictions are correct, because I'd love to see a great game come along, and its likely I'll play most of the game you listed above, I'll still consider the genre in decline and go so far as to predict a large scale implosion in the next five years and a huge scaling back to a more saner time.
Rift is as far as I can see a solid addition to the MMO genre, nothing wrong with that, unless you're that burnt out on MMO's that you need something completely different to be able to get that MMO fix or MMO high.
My guess is that a lot of complainers here and on sites like this have just gotten burnt out and jaded after playing MMO's for thousands of hours. And even if they find a quality MMO with totally different gameplay, I doubt that they'll be able to enjoy these MMO's as much as they did enjoy MMO's in the past.
As for me, so far any MMO I've played I've been able to enjoy and never were my expectations pre-launch of such a kind that I got majorly disappointed after a launch. I could enjoy the MMO's I bought and played for what they offered, not for what I thought they might offer.
But rift is an arcade game... meant to take WoW'ites to their promised land of glitz & glamour.
You have to look at game engine design & character hooks (what they can do/effect) and how that is played out within the game world. Lets face it, most people responding know very little about the games they play. The only know content.. or how to look content up.
Then whether or not, they have to "grind" to get whats on their shopping list. It's sad...
How much do they have to know to have fun in it? Think they don't care about game engine design as long as they are enjoying the game they play.
Comments
That doesn't explain why for the past 7 years this genre has seen complete trash being released. It only explains why people continue to play WoW. Its still the most popular game despite 7 years. That is an unreal feat that shows Blizzards awesomeness, or a complete lack of competent competitors. I postulate that its a complete lack of competence by competitors for the past 7 years, and I can give you a lot of examples.
No, this genre is not doing well, which is why not too long ago MMORPG.com had a news story about companies stopping development on MMOs(aside from the big 2 there is little on the horizon compared to years past). I think a proponent for that was named Ralph Koster, whom has quite a bit of clout with the industry insiders.
Maybe developers finaly realized 1 out of every 20 people actually role-play in RPG's. So now their concentrating on the MMO side of things which means more PvP interaction, competetive gameplay, and content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not. If this is how MMORPG's are "dieing" then I guess I'm ok with them "dieing".
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
It explains why when people branch off of WoW their still looking for a WoW like system that their used to. therefor when they don't get that taste of WoW they either go back or pull the "WoW clone" card because the new game didn't do WoW justice. All games since WoW are complete trash? That's an offely bold statement. it's funny how this site is the only site where I see all this talk about the MMO Industry going under. All you veterans must be "more in the loop" than the rest of us to know something like that. Or your just pissed off because games aren't what they were 10 years ago because they simply can't be. Read the OP. Welcome to the revolution, join it or gtfo.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
PvP and "competitive gameplay" does not an MMO make. It's this kind of thought that results in MMOs with meaningless, repetitive, boxed PvP matches.
As per "content that's more immersive in showing how you as the player are changing the world rather than how you as the player must act out their role and pretend things are happening around you when there actually not"...
Huh? If anything, MMO today are the exact antithesis to what you just said. In MMOs today, every single thing you do has virtually zero impact. Everything of meaning is instanced or phased, so only you on your character actually sees it. And even then, in many cases it just resets for you to do all over again. In the old MMOs, you as a player could actually make a meaningful impact on the game world. Whether it was by effecting MOB spawns, creating buildings in the world that provided useful functions to other players (UO, SWG), crafting items that other players actually needed and wanted, etc.
MMOs are turning into single player games with lobbies. There's less and less need to interact with other players, let alone to depend on them. We've gone from expansive virtual worlds to explore and carve out your own little place, to poorly thought out quest-chain treadmills that give every single player the exact same copy-pasted "you're a hero!" experience. Sorry to say, but when everyone is a "hero" for doing the exact same thing as everyone else around them, then no one is.
Doing fine ? Guess that's why i havent played a single MMO past the fist free month since 2006.
Except you're wrong.
A flawed reasoning. We have quite a number of MMO's that easily have the same number of subs/players as those former top MMO's had. The problem is that in the eyes of many people such numbers these days aren't seen any more as successful or healthy but as fail.
That's one of the larger annoyances that WoW brought: since WoW only numbers of 0.5-1 million subs or higher are seen as a 'success' or healthily active MMO.
Fatalism for the sake of dwelling in fatalism.
The MMO scene has seen enough interesting MMO's released the past 7 years even if they weren't to your taste. And there are definitely more interesting MMO's upcoming than we've seen for many years, and certainly not only 2.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Yes because in old MMORPG's with that massively large playerbase that didn't exist it was much easier to group and be a part of the community. Everybody knew everybody and they all held hands on their boring rat killing quest adventures, how fun that must have been. Killing things over and over again and pretending that there was a good story behind why you were constantly grinding away.
Today's MMO's can show you how a story is supposed to play out (through phasing and instanced events) rather than tell you what your supposed to think is happening. I'm sorry but to me that's alot more entertaining then killing rats over and over and over again (but with my fellow group members) until I've killed enough to feel like I've somehow made an impact on the world.
As for effecting mob spawns, creating buildings and crafting, all of those still exist in modern sandboxes.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
good argument chap!
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Sorry, mate, you could make even less an impact on the gameworld in EQ than in a lot of newer MMO's, that wasn't the reason for its success at all that you could change the gameworld.
Sounds to me like you're a sandbox fan, so no wonder that you dislike all non-sandbox MMO's, fully understandable.
I think you help prove my case that sites like mmorpg.com are where the 'grumpy old men' oldtime MMO gamers hang out, sort of a retirement house for MMO vets, MMO gamers who don't even play MMO's anymore but love to complain about how 'in the past everything was better'.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I call a game a WoW clone because when I'm playing it feels like I'm playing WoW. I'm not looking for a "WoW like" game. I want something that's very different.
My theme song.
I'm currently playing Rift, it is not an improvement in the genre regardless how many people like it. SWTOR, GW2 and all the rest "might" turn out to be the 2nd coming of MMORPG gaming, but if history is any indicator of future success then that's not the way to bet.
Perhaps I'm a burnt-out, grumpy old gamer but on the same token many folks come off as a wide eyed, fanboyish optimists who can't see the forest for the trees sometimes, or the tell tale signs of more of the same.
So while I hope your predictions are correct, because I'd love to see a great game come along, and its likely I'll play most of the game you listed above, I'll still consider the genre in decline and go so far as to predict a large scale implosion in the next five years and a huge scaling back to a more saner time.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That because the author was not knowledgable of the facts, mechanic & skill sets.
In fact, it was not due to tedium, it was more challenging, because u had to think more, do something other's were not & find your own path. Not the same ole themepark walk-0threw that everyone must do now today. I could've put that author to shame, but I refrained.
The design of EQ has not been matched to this date. If u don't understand the mechanics of why, then u too are are ignorant as the author.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Alright, then pretend I didnt say that tiny part that you disected out of there (of course there's other reasons depending on different people). My statement still stands.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Didn't have time to read the whole thread, but to the OP: very optimistic point of view, nice change of pace from most of the shit posted on here:)
Yes I have a dream And its not some MLK dream for equality. I wanna own a decommissioned lighthouse And I wanna live at the top And nobody knows I live there. And theres a button that I can press, and launch that lighthouse into space.
I can tell from this paragraph, you weren't there, so you don't understand how much fun it really was. In the end, mindlessly killing stuff in video games is boring no matter how its presented and the good times come from the people you interact with.
Which is why a game like EVE is actually more socially entertaining than WOW or its many clones, because the players make the story, and no one makes a better story than the players themselves.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The MMO industry is growing , the MMORPG industry is dying .
Sounds conflicting , but MMO are definetly growing really fast , even on the Ipad and Iphone apps.
MMORPG industry is not dying but sadly being outnumbered by MMO in general .
Seems taking the RPG out of the picture , everything is almost a MMO since it is mass people online.
The strange thing about MMO is that this industry is what stops being a MMO , what becomes a web browser game .
So what is truelly a MMO is that people count , a persistant world (almost all offer that ) , a growth system (would be foolishe to not offer that) .
So what constitute a traditional MMO , especially for the younger generation growing up on online gaming .
Rift is as far as I can see a solid addition to the MMO genre, nothing wrong with that, unless you're that burnt out on MMO's that you need something completely different to be able to get that MMO fix or MMO high.
My guess is that a lot of complainers here and on sites like this have just gotten burnt out and jaded after playing MMO's for thousands of hours. And even if they find a quality MMO with totally different gameplay, I doubt that they'll be able to enjoy these MMO's as much as they did enjoy MMO's in the past.
As for me, so far any MMO I've played I've been able to enjoy and never were my expectations pre-launch of such a kind that I got majorly disappointed after a launch. I could enjoy the MMO's I bought and played for what they offered, not for what I thought they might offer.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'll agree that not every mmo since WoW was trash but they were not great either. For me personally it's all been pretty meh. I have some hope for the list of mmos on the way. But you can't really blame people for their skepticism given the releases in the last couple years.
My theme song.
It's true, that I look at the game list here on site and see more dead games than thriving ones. Yet' the games that make it seem to pick up subscribers lately. MMORPGS... maybe aren't the dominant force in the MMO market but in spite of everything the industry seems healthy enough that many people are willing to try and field new games.
If anything, I'd say the industry is playing it too safe and has turned stagnant rather than dying out right now. Too many clones and refinements of older ideas with nothing really new on the horizon.... I think that's what people really mean when they say the industry is dying.
You've a lot of disinfranchised old vets tired of the same old thing with no hope present in the upcoming release lists.
True. Community and friends make for a much more enjoyable experience. However, apparently your still looking for that time when you and your set of friends had fond memories of grouping and questing together. That didn't make the MMO you played "better" than modern MMO's, you just had a better experience because of the people you were with. I have the same sort of great experiences with my friends in today's MMO's.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
If people are saying that then they aren't paying attention much to what the upcoming MMO's like GW2, TSW, ArcheAge and Firefall have to offer in features. Heck, even MMO's like Rift, TERA and SWTOR have some distinctive new ideas or implementations in them, not even talking about a Planetside Next, End of Nations or WoD.
This.
+1
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
But rift is an arcade game... meant to take WoW'ites to their promised land of glitz & glamour.
You have to look at game engine design & character hooks (what they can do/effect) and how that is played out within the game world. Lets face it, most people responding know very little about the games they play. The only know content.. or how to look content up.
Then whether or not, they have to "grind" to get whats on their shopping list. It's sad...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
How much do they have to know to have fun in it? Think they don't care about game engine design as long as they are enjoying the game they play.