Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

General: Grinds My Gears: An Unfinished State of Being

1356

Comments

  • VotanVotan Member UncommonPosts: 291

    The simple reason they do this is they know they can get a fair amount of people to continue to pay for promises.

     

    Some game companies, no names, have released several well publicized unfinished games one without even content for an entire side of the game. Even after the first unfinished product they launched a 2nd even more unfinished game and people still purchased the 2nd game, with just about every beta player, every game forum you could find all were screaming it is not ready……

     

    This is one of the “we have no one to blame but ourselves” because we continue to purchase and sub to this garbage for far to long waiting for some miracle patch or “expansion” that never comes. But hey look at these cool items we just added to our cash shop for our unfinished game! J

  • ukforzeukforze Member Posts: 331

    There was me thinkin i was the only oe saying this for the past 6or7yrs

    Pity developers didnt think like you Jon!

    ...if they did we may have at least one decent mmo out there!

    The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies

    ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
    Played:
    SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR

  • RoyalkinRoyalkin Member UncommonPosts: 267

    Excellent Column, and I couldn't agree any more. Although, one thing that I want to pull out of this and emphasize (and perhaps a little out of context) is;

    "MMORPGs [notice he didn't say MMOs] are not single player games, stop treating them like they are."


  • UNH0LYEV1LUNH0LYEV1L Member UncommonPosts: 492

    Best article on this sight. Should be required reading for every MMO company.

    ProbablyGettingNerfed - L100 - Witch - Path of Exile
  • TolanaTolana Member UncommonPosts: 22

    Loved the article, thanks Jon :)

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,898

    In my opinion, one big reason developers are able to get away with unfinished releases is pre-order sales. We have noone to blame but ourselves for that one. The companies can feed off of our ignorance and desperation, but I believe the consumer is ultimately responsible. Inform yourself. Use patience.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,487

    I actually take issue with this article...even though I 100% agree with what was written,

     

     

    My issue is that the author refused to acknowledge that sites like this bear the blame as well.  How can a site like this review a game that is buggy and blatantly unfinished... and somehow give it a passing grade based on "potential"? 

     

    I mean.. take these quotes from a relatively recent review on this very site:

    "With my gushing praise and anticipation aside however, it must be said that this game is buggy as all hell, and it is not the game that it should be yet."

    "Taking heed of the screaming, disgruntled customers in the corner, I feel we must first address the biggest issue regarding Mortal Online. While this is a game with masses of potential, of current, this game is nearer to state of closed-beta rather than retail release. From the desktop-launcher to the combat system, Star Vault’s creation is riddled with bugs, glitches, errors, misjudgements and everything in-between."

    "The caveat to all this however, is that this game has bags and bags of potential. To simply write this title off for a number of programming deficiencies would be a supremely stupid move. With the right development, ideas, and future content, this is one sandbox experience that could go down with the best of them."

     

    The game was rated as "mediocre" with the accompanying description of: The game has a few standout features with few, if any, glaring detractors.

     

    So yes.. I agree with the article but I am quite disappointed that the author put all the blame on the company and accepted none of the responsibility for the current situtation.  If reviewers actually held companies to the standards that are described in the article we might actually start to see some progress.   Continually giving buggy and blatantly unfinished games passing grades in reviews just contributes to the culture of acceptance.   Maybe this article is a sign that change is coming... but I will believe it when I see it.

     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • TuchakaTuchaka Member UncommonPosts: 468

    totally agree the lack of all the above points is what is making me take a break from MMO gaming when the industry get's a clue i might be back

  • DeadalonDeadalon Member Posts: 79

    Just look what Blizzard is doing with Cataclysm. 5 months from the release of the expansion and STILL there is no CONTENT patch out.  Next "content" patch is recycled old dungeons that were removed from the game before - Raid dungeons that ppl have done hundreds of times. 

    But dont forget... Its also adding a flying lion store mount you can buy for 25 USD:

    NOw.... Please guys - stop  paying for WOW cause BLizzard is not even TRYING anymore to justify Subscription.  Its a total insult to any long term WOW player to see this patch.   

  • sibs4455sibs4455 Member UncommonPosts: 369

     

    You forgot to mention the need for games sites to stop giving these crap games a good score even though we all know they are bug ridden, mmorpg.com is a culprit of this sort of marking, just look at the real aweful games that have lauched bug ridden or half complete and then check what score this site gave.  I know most other sites do this scoring too but when you right an article that is dear to all gamers hearts then i would suggest checking on the policies of the site you post it on.

    It was a good read, weldone.

      

  • bakagamibakagami Member UncommonPosts: 152

    its our fault really, we've been letting them get away with this for far too long.  they've been selling us gimpware fo all kinds, not jsut games but pro software packages that crashed they systems they were installed to, operating systems w/ major memory leaks & security issues, games that wouldnt load up at all itll they got the first patch which sometimes took weeks to be released.  can we do anything about it?  not anymore.  had we from the start simply marched that piece of crap back to the stor & demanded our money back & did that every time it happend then they wouldn't be screwing us over now.  but now its become established as an acceptable industry practice

    image
    image

  • WorstluckWorstluck Member Posts: 1,269

    Love it.  Could not agree more!

    It's been a rather frustrating experience the last few years being an MMO gamer.  With so many failed games and shoddy, unfinished concepts being pushed out, it can drive a gamer crazy.  I am dealing with Xsyon right now, and yeah yeah, it's an indie company, but the game was released severly unfinished and it really hurt the game.  Month+ later, the devs are still trying to deal with technical issues, when they were supposed to be adding the missing content...that was already supposed to be in.  This just tells me the game was not tested properly.  Frustrating!

    image

  • JumdorJumdor Member Posts: 62

    I think if everyone stopped buying games before they hit or even have the slightest clue what the game is like other than videos and screenshots. We could force the developers to produce a finished demo or sample of it before we spend hardcore money on something we have no clue what to expect. I doubt however that this will happen because too many people are itching to pay wads to be the first on the block to snag the fad...

    image

    "Love can be innocent and can be sweet, but sometimes about as nice as rotting meat."

  • SBE1SBE1 Member UncommonPosts: 337

    Dear Jon:  Please take this post seriously.   If many games are releasing incomplete, why oh why are almost all the reviews on this website between 7.5-8.9, which indicates that the MMO is considered good/great?  I think when an MMO launches and receives such a positive feedback review from this website (and others), people who didn't get into beta will assume the game is pretty decent with a score like that and buy it.  This leads to a lot of box sales, which just reinforces the idea that releasing an incomplete MMO is okay.  It would be a whole lot more helpful if your initial reviews of MMOs would have perhaps different ratings, one of which "is the game complete or still in beta" category.  I too am sick of buying a game and finding out it has lots of bugs and wasn't finished or even had what was promised on the box (Age of Conan comes to mind).  If you want MMOs to stop releasing half-done games, stop giving those games glowing reviews or at least make it clear the game isn't done in the review.

  • mrw0lfmrw0lf Member Posts: 2,269

    I played a number of new releases last year that I considered good purchases, value for money and a lot of fun while I played. Now I will be the first to admit none of them will hook me long term (as I hope an mmo would) but I knew it off the bat, I don't blame the condition of the released games, I blame the direction of the market.

    I hate to say this but imo people are getting what they ask for, shallow, unimmersive and short term games, it's all about the adhd, in short order people are looking to pick these games apart because they are no longer connected to them. It's the reason you get so many of these unbelievably polar threads with praise and bile from the same posters in such short time frames.

    Yes it's true that the fundamentals of the game have to work, I mean what a stupid thing to say anyhow, but they don't have to be perfect. In the past there were few expectations and people took these adventures as they were served. Now poeple come with a shopping list and in most cases an unrealistic one. For some reason, time and time again people play a game that quite blatantly isn't what they want but still feel everyone else needs to know they were fkin daft enough to think if they whined enough it would suddenly change.

    I don't maintain for an instant the industry is perfect, far from it, but this artical imo was little more than a rally cry of meaningless sound-bites, '"we deserve better games", "release finished games", "we want it perfect from the offset", "a new bar has been set", that bar seems to be that of other long term released games. I know many will disagree with me and that's cool, afterall you have a newly released game which was about as polished and with much of the stuff the community has been crying out for, so lets see how Rift goes. If this artical is correct Rift will be at a few million subs minimum for the next few years.

    -----
    “The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.”

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Member UncommonPosts: 2,759

    Originally posted by sibs4455

     

    You forgot to mention the need for games sites to stop giving these crap games a good score even though we all know they are bug ridden, mmorpg.com is a culprit of this sort of marking, just look at the real aweful games that have lauched bug ridden or half complete and then check what score this site gave.  I know most other sites do this scoring too but when you right an article that is dear to all gamers hearts then i would suggest checking on the policies of the site you post it on.

    It was a good read, weldone.

      

     Something you need to keep in mind though is that those reviews are about the entire game, not just wther or not it has bugs/issues or lack of content or whatever.

    You can have a game that has great graphics, great story, new & interesting mechanics & features, etc, etc. Should the scores on all of those other things be brought down because of bugs that arent related to some or all of those things? Shoud, for example, graphics quality not be praised because there is a bug that makes some skills not work properly?

    I know, sometimes these bugs & issues arent pointed out (or arent known) by the reviewers, but i see tons of reviews done where they do talk about issues that a game has, but in the end they give at a pretty good rating and people are like "omgwtf this should be rated a 2 becaus eit has this bug and that bug" when really its just a aspect of the game that is bad, but everything else is great.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,487

    Originally posted by kaiser3282

    Originally posted by sibs4455

     

    You forgot to mention the need for games sites to stop giving these crap games a good score even though we all know they are bug ridden, mmorpg.com is a culprit of this sort of marking, just look at the real aweful games that have lauched bug ridden or half complete and then check what score this site gave.  I know most other sites do this scoring too but when you right an article that is dear to all gamers hearts then i would suggest checking on the policies of the site you post it on.

    It was a good read, weldone.

      

     Something you need to keep in mind though is that those reviews are about the entire game, not just wther or not it has bugs/issues or lack of content or whatever.

    You can have a game that has great graphics, great story, new & interesting mechanics & features, etc, etc. Should the scores on all of those other things be brought down because of bugs that arent related to some or all of those things? Shoud, for example, graphics quality not be praised because there is a bug that makes some skills not work properly?

    I know, sometimes these bugs & issues arent pointed out (or arent known) by the reviewers, but i see tons of reviews done where they do talk about issues that a game has, but in the end they give at a pretty good rating and people are like "omgwtf this should be rated a 2 becaus eit has this bug and that bug" when really its just a aspect of the game that is bad, but everything else is great.


     

     NO.  There is a difference between "a bug that makes some skills not work properly" and a game that is "bug ridden or half complete".

     

    Quite simply if a game is incomplete at release it should get a failing grade.  I don't care if it has the greatest graphics ever seen in an MMO.  If the game itself is "bug ridden or half complete" it should receive a failing grade.   If it get's fixed a year later and you review it at that time... then grade it differently.  Giving it credit for something that it might become at some future undetermined point in time is ludicrous.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • ScribbleLay1ScribbleLay1 Member Posts: 177

    There was alot more unfinished with STO than just the Klingons.  Remember Transporting to Earth Space Dock with your whole ship and flying it around inside ESD or how about transporting to your ship and ending up walking to your ship in Space without a suit, boy I could go on for hours on that stuff.

  • ScribbleLay1ScribbleLay1 Member Posts: 177

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188



    Originally posted by kaiser3282




    Originally posted by sibs4455

     



    You forgot to mention the need for games sites to stop giving these crap games a good score even though we all know they are bug ridden, mmorpg.com is a culprit of this sort of marking, just look at the real aweful games that have lauched bug ridden or half complete and then check what score this site gave.  I know most other sites do this scoring too but when you right an article that is dear to all gamers hearts then i would suggest checking on the policies of the site you post it on.



    It was a good read, weldone.



      



     Something you need to keep in mind though is that those reviews are about the entire game, not just wther or not it has bugs/issues or lack of content or whatever.



    You can have a game that has great graphics, great story, new & interesting mechanics & features, etc, etc. Should the scores on all of those other things be brought down because of bugs that arent related to some or all of those things? Shoud, for example, graphics quality not be praised because there is a bug that makes some skills not work properly?



    I know, sometimes these bugs & issues arent pointed out (or arent known) by the reviewers, but i see tons of reviews done where they do talk about issues that a game has, but in the end they give at a pretty good rating and people are like "omgwtf this should be rated a 2 becaus eit has this bug and that bug" when really its just a aspect of the game that is bad, but everything else is great.






     



     NO.  There is a difference between "a bug that makes some skills not work properly" and a game that is "bug ridden or half complete".



     



    Quite simply if a game is incomplete at release it should get a failing grade.  I don't care if it has the greatest graphics ever seen in an MMO.  If the game itself is "bug ridden or half complete" it should receive a failing grade.   If it get's fixed a year later and you review it at that time... then grade it differently.  Giving it credit for something that it might become at some future undetermined point in time is ludicrous.


     

     Why not give it credit for something it might become, President Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize for what he might do.  If it is good enouth for the Nobel Commetti and the President of the US then is should be good enough for MMORPG.  I am just kidding is you didn't know.

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Member UncommonPosts: 2,759

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188



    Originally posted by kaiser3282




    Originally posted by sibs4455

     

    You forgot to mention the need for games sites to stop giving these crap games a good score even though we all know they are bug ridden, mmorpg.com is a culprit of this sort of marking, just look at the real aweful games that have lauched bug ridden or half complete and then check what score this site gave.  I know most other sites do this scoring too but when you right an article that is dear to all gamers hearts then i would suggest checking on the policies of the site you post it on.

    It was a good read, weldone.

      

     Something you need to keep in mind though is that those reviews are about the entire game, not just wther or not it has bugs/issues or lack of content or whatever.

    You can have a game that has great graphics, great story, new & interesting mechanics & features, etc, etc. Should the scores on all of those other things be brought down because of bugs that arent related to some or all of those things? Shoud, for example, graphics quality not be praised because there is a bug that makes some skills not work properly?

    I know, sometimes these bugs & issues arent pointed out (or arent known) by the reviewers, but i see tons of reviews done where they do talk about issues that a game has, but in the end they give at a pretty good rating and people are like "omgwtf this should be rated a 2 becaus eit has this bug and that bug" when really its just a aspect of the game that is bad, but everything else is great.






     

     NO.  There is a difference between "a bug that makes some skills not work properly" and a game that is "bug ridden or half complete".

     

    Quite simply if a game is incomplete at release it should get a failing grade.  I don't care if it has the greatest graphics ever seen in an MMO.  If the game itself is "bug ridden or half complete" it should receive a failing grade.   If it get's fixed a year later and you review it at that time... then grade it differently.  Giving it credit for something that it might become at some future undetermined point in time is ludicrous.

     Yeah that would work if everybody had one unified mind. Problem is, everyone has different opinions on what is considered broken, or incomplete, or not good enough. Some people are fine with some things, feel theres enough content, not a ton of bugs/broken things, etc, then theres those who find pretty much any game to not have enough content, or any minor bug is considered huge and gamebreaking, etc.

    By your logic, a dev can make lets say 80% of the game good, but then 20% of it is missing things and has some bugs/broken stuff, works in progress, etc.... and that 20% completely invalidates the other 80% simply by being there. Think of it like a girlfriend who you treat perfectly, but you have a couple of habits/preferences/opinions that she doesnt like, or maybe you just started your career but arent quite in your prime yet but will be there eventually. That girlfriend nags at you constantly about those things that she doesnt like, and never acknowledges the good things about you, or the fact that you are trying to advance yourself but thats not good enough, you have to be at the highest position in your carerr right that moment. Sound like a good way for a girlfriend to be? Ignore all the good because theres some bad? Should a reviewer do the same and focus purely on the bad only giving low scores because there are bad things about the game, and completely ignoring the things that are good about it?

    Hell, you guys act like reviewers are going around flooding the sites with a bunch of games rated a 10, when really most of them sit around like 7-8. Do you really consider that good? 7/10 = 70%, which would be a C in most school systems. C = average / ok, passing but needs improvement.... thats far from an A+. Should teachers just start throwing Fs around and failing all their students if theyre not scoring 90-100% on every single thing? Of course not. Why should a reviewer give every game that has some problems an F (completely failing and unplayable) instead of a C (alright, some good/great things, but needs a lot of work in some areas)?

  • ravtecravtec Member Posts: 214

    Couldt agree more.

    What bugs me is that devs/publish must earn alot of money on this else they would have learnd.

    This have been a trend for many years now, to many for not beeing profitable.

    Might be my tinfoil hat speaking but i find it hard to belive that people with high degree havent pickd up on this. That it skips a few i can see but all of em?

  • DinendaeDinendae Member Posts: 1,264

    Originally posted by Shayde

    Too many devs use the "mmos are always unfinished" excuse to not complete the work in the first place.

     Yep, and too many players are willing to forgive a horrible launch by chanting the same mantra. Can you really blame the devs for using that line if they know a good amount of players will carry the torch for them?

    "Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan

  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,803

    Originally posted by Jaretlai

    You've got to wonder the reasons behind the early releases. Developers aren't lacking intellect, and have to know that it reflects badly on them to release an unfinished, buggy product. If they're being forced to release "early" (which in all honestly is probably later than their original timeline that was introduced to their publishers), why are they not negotiating for a longer release time with these pros and cons. They only have to point back to previous games which have released early and failed to achieve a true "mmo" (ie: longterm) success. I would hate to be in the position of being a member of the team that is forced to release early, or perhaps on time, when you know your product is not finished and you know that given just another half year of development you can truly give it the polish it requires.

    In any case, the marketing teams being hired/used for all of these games (past/present/future) are obviously doing their job, because we're still buying based off the promises.

    Someday we'll get brutal honesty from developers, but I don't think it'll be anytime soon, as any lone company spilling full truths on where they are lacking in development and where their holes are... risks losing customers to competition who is not doing so. Both releases may measure up the same, but the company who released information probably garners less attention and customers initially than the company who just keeps marketing. Both games would more than likely level off to the same amount of customers, but hiding those holes at first gets them a larger profit initially.

     

    One of the main reasons that games release early... Investor panic.  Keep in mind the old saying "what have you done for me this quarter"?...  These projects typically take years to finish. Thats a LOT of money.   There is something known as FUD(Fear Uncertainty Doubt) that tends to spread like a plague within management. If mile stones are missed, features start getting cut back. Testing gets cut back, anything(and any one...) who might get in the way of release gets axed.

    At that point, the sense of panic influences just about everything.  Millions upon millions of other peoples money is at stake. It doesn't matter that early release is the kiss of death, and is very likely to result in the failure of the game. All that the publisher can see is the box sales, and the chance to make back even a fraction of the money already invested.  Its foolish, short sighted, and irrational, but its all too common.

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • mmogamefanmmogamefan Member UncommonPosts: 6

    I guess I am in the minority but what is the point of this column, to make generic complaints about the things we all know about?  Games should be released in a finished state, devs should squash bugs before worrying about new content, yeah, everyone agrees with that.  Use the power of editorial man, what games are you talking about, give me examples.  If I was reading an editorial column on a website dedicated to a different hobby, and the subject was failed new product releases, there would be some specifics and examples.  

    This coulmn is doubly hard to take seriously with a limp shot at SOE, ostensibly for DCUO, when this site had plenty of opportunities to trumpet the serious flaws in that game, but instead you guys soft sold any problems.  I was playing the beta and thinking "this game has some big issues" and see those concerns echoed in the forums, then I'd read columns by Jon and Bill that were trying to put a positive spin on everything.  I'm not saying you guys didn't acknowledge problems, but always couched in optimism.  

    It's not editorial's job to be cheerleaders for publishers.  If you are going to take shots at companies that deserve it, then do it, name and shame, have opinions and back them up.  To me this is an attempt to show that you guys are credible critics when your actions tell a different story.

  • CanisLupusXCanisLupusX Member UncommonPosts: 14

    Jon is so right.... /signed /signed /signed. Every sentence.

    And what he's speaking about? Just look at ANY game from PWE. Then you know WHY he had to write this article. They release their games in a state others would simply call early beta or even late alpha.

Sign In or Register to comment.