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Missing the good old EQ One type of hardcore gameplay

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  • SpornSporn Member Posts: 259



    Originally posted by kmimmorpg



    Originally posted by Sporn

    Could it be possible since mmorpg's have seemed to be dumbed down to bring in more players to make more money, that players who would not have survived in a hardcore game like original EQ or Uo will be more likely to give a hardcore title a chance in the future?  Mebe all of the non harcore games we see now will result in more hardcore mmorpg's as the mass's demand more depth once again.



    Not exactly sure in what context you mean that gameplay has been "dumbed down".  But if it is what I think you mean, and that is a game having mechanics that cause you to have to play several hours non-stop, versus playing something a few hours at a time - that is not dumbing it down. Its realizing the fact some people have a job they sit at for 8 hours (or more) a day. And those same people don't want to sit and play a game for 8 hours too. That's a lot of ass-sitting!



    When I say dumbed down I dont mean the uber grind or uber spawn camp being smart.  I mean things like waypoints to corpses or npc's.  Linear game play where getting lost in a dungeon or forest is impossible cause you are basically funnled through it.  I just think the latest big mmorpg's like EQ2 for example are way to linear and they have been simplified to much.  The best part of a mmorpg to me is freedom especially exploring I dont want to know I got to  go to X zone from lvls 1-10 then Y zone from lvls 10-20 and so on.  Don't get me wrong im not saying these games are terrible just not my cup of tea. 

    I want a game like where risk is real  not some 5 min run to get a shard so I dont lose 10% of my stats for a day boohoo.

    But hey to each his own.

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  • anarchyartanarchyart Member Posts: 5,378
    *waits patiently for Vanguard*

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  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077


    Originally posted by Lidale
    loosing hours of work in 1 death does not = fun gameplay imoedit: tho I used to like those console games like sonic and mario where u could loose all of your progress by loosing too many times =P


    That's correct. It doesn't =fun. But it DOES = a sense of accomplishment and pride at reaching a certain level or goal.

    In EQ reaching level 60 was an astounding accomplishment and, for those of us who remember the game pre-kunark, level 50 was as well... People who hit 50/60 (now it's 70... yawn) were, generally, respected for their effort and drive in getting there. Seeing someone shout "DING" was always something worth a 'congrats' because after a certain point reaching that DING became an accomplishment in and of itself.

    EQ was many things, frustrating, boring at times, but after all was said and done anyone who spent any time at all in it felt a certain pride in the things they'd managed to get or the level they'd managed to achieve or the places they'd been able to see.

    In MMO's today it's just not that hard to do those things. It's only a matter of time before you see the entire game (and generally not nearly as long :)) or reach the highest levels (again, not nearly as long).

    Lineage II took a wag at competing with the 'accomplishment' aspect of EQ but they over-did the level grind by a lot :)

    No, there will never be another EQ... sad actually, but it's true. We're too spoiled with instant travel and rapid gratification now and developers are too scared to anger the playerbase that is as fickle as the west wind. I'm the same... the same things that make me fondly remember my time in EverQuest would drive me bananas today because I've been there and done that. I've done the level 60 grind and finished the impossible quests. Now I just want to hop on, have fun and hop off, like most other gamers.

    EQ is still out there but it's not the same :) Nothing ever can be unless a Dev is willing to take the risk on it :) Why do you think permadeath died (hehe no pun intended) for MEO? Why do you think so few games implement reward based PVP like UO did? They're affraid to anger their players. With good cause, we've all proven that we'll bail and run to the next great thing as soon as we get frustrated.

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • JorevJorev Member Posts: 1,500

    Which begs the question, why can't game developers offer a dummied down easy game for the masses and special hardcore ruleset servers for gamers that want a serious challenge?

    I also miss the challenge that EQdead offered before SOE ruined the game, by dummying it down and focusing on too much raid/group content. EQdead was a well balanced solo and group MMOG  for both PvE combat and tradeskills, until "Planes of Power" expansion.

    It took me 4 months of non stop tradeskilling focus to max out tailoring, which was the most difficult tradeskill to master, especially solo without help from guilds or friends feeding you ingredients. It was great being the first 250 tailor on my server and the only 250 tailor for many months. Most players who attempted it quit in frustration thus making it a coveted accomplishment, both financially and emotionally.

    What fun is it to be one of the many to solve a quest or kill a certain mob or master a tradeskill? I like a skill or level based MMOG that is painfully slow to advance in and has a significant penalty for losing in battle, both for PvE and PvP, thus separating the men from the boys, the women from the girls. Reward means nothing without the shadow of possible loss. How can you define success as being significant, if failing is nothing to be feared and everyone and their mother has accomplished the same goals easily?

     

     

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    "We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
    Brad McQuaid
    Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
    Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    www.vanguardsoh

  • I like giraffes.

  • anarchyartanarchyart Member Posts: 5,378



    Originally posted by Jorev

    Which begs the question, why can't game developers offer a dummied down easy game for the masses and special hardcore ruleset servers for gamers that want a serious challenge?
    I also miss the challenge that EQdead offered before SOE ruined the game, by dummying it down and focusing on too much raid/group content. EQdead was a well balanced solo and group MMOG  for both PvE combat and tradeskills, until "Planes of Power" expansion.
    It took me 4 months of non stop tradeskilling focus to max out tailoring, which was the most difficult tradeskill to master, especially solo without help from guilds or friends feeding you ingredients. It was great being the first 250 tailor on my server and the only 250 tailor for many months. Most players who attempted it quit in frustration thus making it a coveted accomplishment, both financially and emotionally.
    What fun is it to be one of the many to solve a quest or kill a certain mob or master a tradeskill? I like a skill or level based MMOG that is painfully slow to advance in and has a significant penalty for losing in battle, both for PvE and PvP, thus separating the men from the boys, the women from the girls. Reward means nothing without the shadow of possible loss. How can you define success as being significant, if failing is nothing to be feared and everyone and their mother has accomplished the same goals easily?
     
     



    /agree heartily

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  • -KitFox--KitFox- Member Posts: 26

    [quote]No, there will never be another EQ... sad actually, but it's true. We're too spoiled with instant travel and rapid gratification now and developers are too scared to anger the playerbase that is as fickle as the west wind.[/quote]

    One word, is all that is required: Vanguard.

     

    Check it out, it [b]is[/b] a niche game, and it appeals to the veteran gamers, or those who want the challenge put back into MMORPGs.  Travel is meaningful and very important, there is no isntant travel beyond things similar to druid rings/wizarding spires (although those means of travel have not been stated as the "forms of instant travel to be utilized") and you can use player made boats, wagons, caravans etc, buy a horse or whichever.  I could talk for hours about how excited I am for Vanguard, because like so many others, I too yearn for the days of old, and find myself FINALLY rediscovering a glimmer of hope for this genre, and it lies within Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.

     

    www.vanguardsoh.com

    "when life knocks you to your knees...well, thats the best posistion to pray in, isn't it ?"

  • herculeshercules Member UncommonPosts: 4,920

    I can relate.

    Everyone goes around demand easy games saying those that play harder games are people only who can play 24/7.

    I laugh as i put in about 50 hrs+ a week into my job and yet i still find modern mmorpg lacking.

    Lets face it the challenge is a good part of the fun to begin with!

  • RammurRammur Member Posts: 575
    hell i returned back too eq so far im enjoying it with the less population seem the game more realistic with the lower population wouldnt be often you travel through the woods and run into 30 people spread out killen stuff now it like once in awhile ill cross patchs with an adventurer.
  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077


    Originally posted by -KitFox-
    I would venture to say all station accounts together add up to 400-500k. That includes SWG, Planetside, and both EQs.

    Last month's research by a market consultant (cannot find the source, sorry) stated that EQLive is at 420,000 pop. down from 500k + half a year ago. EQ2 is at 210,000, and SWG at 170,000. Not that bad, but certainly pales in comparison to World of Warcraft.

    Alot of people are posting Vanguard is just another EQ2 "clone";true, the majority of the main developers created the original EQ, but this fact does not indicate that their new game will in fact be a clone, or some half bit copy - I have put my faith in the designers because many of them brought us this genre, and revolutionized online gaming.

    I am active on the forums, and what goes on there and in the FAQ assures me that my hopes are not in vain, that this game may re-revolutionize the genre that is quickly becoming flooded with games trying to cater to the entire population (thus dumbing down their content and challenge to appeal to the casual gamers as well), and that this game is NOT remake of EQ2 - I would ask that all of you, if you care about this genre even an inkling, do some research before listening to the accusations and false perceptions about Vanguard...the differences are vast between - if you want to look beyond a first impression- EQ2 and other game(s) on the market. It is a niche game, and will attract the veteran crowd I have no doubt, that being said, it is coined as a 3rd generation MMORPG for good reason ---- check out these E3 Reports and CCG Movie:

    http://www.thesafehouse.org/viewforum.php?f=18

    ::::32:: Enjoy!



    Sorry barring information source I find that tough to swallow when Sir Bruce's site contradicts that and has:

    EQ at just over 400,000 subscribers
    EQ2 at just around 250,000 subscribers
    SWG at right around 200-250,000 subscribers
    Planetside at about 50,000 subscribers


    So, combined, SOE has somewhere around 1,000,000 subscribers to it's games. Not too shabby.

    Now, granted, some of those may be people who play both games but from what I have read and seen it's not folks with SOE All Access Passes bloating those numbers. The All Access Pass wasn't worth getting till SWG got added to the lineup allowed to be on the Pass in February, 2005.

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • GrouchoGroucho Member Posts: 100

    Time sinks are not the same as "difficulty."  It's an artificial challenge.  Take those away an EQ was a remarkably easy game to play.

    Like others here, I am following the progress of Vanguard.  The creators promise to create true challenge and difficulty, without timesinks.  If they can pull it off, great!

  • ChrisMatternChrisMattern Member Posts: 1,478

    How about FFXI? No corpse retrieval, but there is a death penalty. Teleporting is fairly difficult, and just about impossible to do in combat, particularly if you're losing--you'll get interrupted. You don't *have* to eat per se, but having a food buff in higher level combat is pretty much mandatory...




  • Originally posted by Norgoth
    When EQ first came out, I simply loved the hardcore aspects. I am referring to the death penalty, corpse retrieval, inability to teleport everywhere instantly, food and drinking necessity, etc. The rush I got from the difficulty of EQ made it fun for me. The games now have become easier with respect to risk taking. Now, if things go wrong simply port out, die, etc. It makes no difference IMO. I was wondering how other people feel about this and whether there is a game in development that harkens back to the original difficulties of EQ?


    First off, I think many people look at the past through rose-colored glasses.  Many people, including myself, look back at EQ1 with a lot of nostalgia, but the fact is the game involved a lot of boredom and frustration which made the "accomplishments" seem that much nicer.

    For instance, in WoW I hear some people say "damn, I have done (insert dungeon here) 20 times and I still don't have my class boots/legs/bp/etc!".  I remember in EQ1, Pre-Kunark, camping Plane of Fear for MONTHS trying to get a Blighted Robe for my necro.  I'm talking mind-numbing trash-killing that involved very little skill if any.  At keast in WoW, if I join a 10 person or 5 person group to clear an instance, I get to meet new people while also playing a fairly fast paced game that requires you to pay attention and know how to play your class.  You find out VERY quickly who is skilled and who sucks at doing their job.

     

    Something else.  Someone mentioned in this thread about how people respected those who hit level 50, and then later level 60, 70, etc.  I'll be honest here.  I played EQ since beta4 and the fact is, many of the well known or "respected" high level players on the server weren't people who were really clever or "skilled" at the game, they were people who didn't have jobs or else were in college and skipped class so they could play EQ all day and night.  Many of these older hardcore games like EQ and UO didn't reward you for kill, they rewarded you for sheer amount of time that you could spend.

     

    Another aspect of old EQ that bothered me was downtime.  I agree with people that adding a harsh penalty for death gives you more respect for the gaming world.  Perhaps the answer is indeed to have a "hardcore / nightmare" ruleset server for people who crave that kind of thing.  For me, I would rather be punished by having to do an instance or dungeon over again than by having to essentially stop playing so I can run for 30 minutes to retrieve my corpse.

    Again, I'll provide another Everquest example.  I recall during Kunark that I was on a raid to kill the King in Chardok for the Cleric epic quest.  The raid wiped and we had to basically sit around for a good hour+ while necros summoned corpses.

    Now compare that to WoW, where the penalty is "damnit... the instance respawned, we need to clear some mobs again".  I would MUCH rather learn from my mistake and be able to jump right back into the action than basically be forced to spend my gaming time sitting around on a CR.

    Death in a MMORPG should have a sting and it should force you to learn, but it should NOT basically stop you from playing which is what EQ did.
  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077


    Originally posted by Aildrik

    Again, I'll provide another Everquest example. I recall during Kunark that I was on a raid to kill the King in Chardok for the Cleric epic quest. The raid wiped and we had to basically sit around for a good hour+ while necros summoned corpses.
    Now compare that to WoW, where the penalty is "damnit... the instance respawned, we need to clear some mobs again". I would MUCH rather learn from my mistake and be able to jump right back into the action than basically be forced to spend my gaming time sitting around on a CR.
    Death in a MMORPG should have a sting and it should force you to learn, but it should NOT basically stop you from playing which is what EQ did.

    Be glad you had Necros :)
    I agree that there were some really awful things about EQ which is why most of us have moved on :) But you also have to agree that the reason we have so many fond memories for that game is that the good parts of it were made so much more memorable because of the fact that the game was extremely difficult. I still remember the all-night corpse runs in Fear/Hate when they first came out where entire guild's would rally to help a raid get their corpses back. There was horrible boredom at times, as you stated and some things were just plain harsh... but those negatives sure made the positives memorable :) I played from Beta 2 and still hop on from time to time myself.

    Also when I said 50's/60's etc were respected I wasn't talking about the no-life kids I'm talking about the people who were relatively 'normal' players (granted in EQ normal was like 2-4 hours a day but still)... People who spent their entire lives online didn't get a whole lot of respect... like the FOH guy who hit 60 in a week after Kunark released.... nobody respected him for it on my server, most of us were like 'oh my god, what a waste of time!'. But your average 50 or 60 or what is it now? 70? players got a decent ammt of respect for their knowledge of the game and the fact that they'd achieved such impressive milestones.

    And if you honestly think there's no skill involved in dragon raids, etc... try doing it with 1.5 groups (pre-kunark vox/naggy runs) or doing FEAR with 2 groups or Hate with 2 groups back then. My guild, at least, never took overkill we always had limits on how many people were allowed to go so that we could keep comms clear and easy to follow. Skill in a small group was critical in those places. One person messing up could wipe the entire raid.

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas




  • Originally posted by Elnator


     

    Be glad you had Necros :)
    I agree that there were some really awful things about EQ which is why most of us have moved on :) But you also have to agree that the reason we have so many fond memories for that game is that the good parts of it were made so much more memorable because of the fact that the game was extremely difficult. I still remember the all-night corpse runs in Fear/Hate when they first came out where entire guild's would rally to help a raid get their corpses back. There was horrible boredom at times, as you stated and some things were just plain harsh... but those negatives sure made the positives memorable :) I played from Beta 2 and still hop on from time to time myself.

    Also when I said 50's/60's etc were respected I wasn't talking about the no-life kids I'm talking about the people who were relatively 'normal' players (granted in EQ normal was like 2-4 hours a day but still)... People who spent their entire lives online didn't get a whole lot of respect... like the FOH guy who hit 60 in a week after Kunark released.... nobody respected him for it on my server, most of us were like 'oh my god, what a waste of time!'. But your average 50 or 60 or what is it now? 70? players got a decent ammt of respect for their knowledge of the game and the fact that they'd achieved such impressive milestones.

    And if you honestly think there's no skill involved in dragon raids, etc... try doing it with 1.5 groups (pre-kunark vox/naggy runs) or doing FEAR with 2 groups or Hate with 2 groups back then. My guild, at least, never took overkill we always had limits on how many people were allowed to go so that we could keep comms clear and easy to follow. Skill in a small group was critical in those places. One person messing up could wipe the entire raid.




    I agree largely.  I guess the main point I was trying to get across is that more and more, you hear people pining about the "good old days".  People have selective memories.  In a way it might be like thinking back on an ex-girlfriend.  Maybe she was good looking or you had some memorable rolls in the hay; it's tempting to remember the good times you had, but when you start to think more about it, you realize she was a bitch, you ended up neglecting your friends and in general made your life pretty miserable most of the time.

    In EQ there were certainly moments you felt like you were on top of the world, but I strongly believe there has to be another way of doing it that doesn't involve 99% of the play time being tedious, or forcing players to give up "fun" time in the game in order to perform long CR's or run back through 6 zones naked to get their corpse.  Heck, I find it annoying now when I play WoW and have to run from the graveyard in Eastern Plaguelands back to Stratholme (a short run in the grand scheme of things).  Yet, it's not SO long that the group says "well thats it.... we're packing it up, seeya later".  How many times in EQ did an attempt to camp a room somewhere end up turning into an hour of just trying to CR, not just yourself but the poor schmuck in the group who couldn't find his way across a parking lot let alone a zone.

     

    I'm sure part of it is that the demographic for gamers has changed.  Many of the people who played UO and the original EQ were people who were serious gamers and were around to see what was truly the dawn of online gaming;  the college kids who played Quake using KALI on campuses or the people who had been playing MUDs on green monochrome terminal screens.  For those people, putting that kind of time into the game wasn't as huge of a deal and the overall tolerance level for bugs and tedium was much higher.

    The people now who are dabbling with online games are people who work 8-10 hours a day and have families and other interests.  I don't think its reasonable or even realistic to think that people would bother with a game that had the kind of tedium and PITA factor that those early MMORPG's had. 

     

    People might read that and say "See!? We're dumbing the games down!".  I don't think thats it at all.  I just think there is a fine line between making a game FUN and making a game a ball-buster so that when you finally DO get a rusty sword after camping rats for 10 hours you feel like the king of the world.
  • kmimmorpgkmimmorpg Member Posts: 624



    Originally posted by Aildrik

    People might read that and say "See!? We're dumbing the games down!".  I don't think thats it at all.  I just think there is a fine line between making a game FUN and making a game a ball-buster so that when you finally DO get a rusty sword after camping rats for 10 hours you feel like the king of the world.


    Both of your posts are very well said Aildrik!!!
  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077

    I agree... there is a fine line to walk.

    Personally I think SWG walks that line extremely well and is a heck of a lot of fun. It's the ONLY MMO that I've found that has that special "something" that I haven't seen since UO and EQ first came out. The game is far from boring, very easy to get into, completely possible to hop on for an hour or so and have a blast then logout if you want or can suck you in for hours at a time if you let it. Has so many things to do it's not even funny and manages to make you feel like part of the game.

    And it's got... as I said... that certain "something" that makes me keep coming back. No game since EQ has done that. Even DAOC started feeling more like work than a game. SWG is just plain... fun... every time.

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • LidaleLidale Member Posts: 88


    Originally posted by Jorev
    Which begs the question, why can't game developers offer a dummied down easy game for the masses and special hardcore ruleset servers for gamers that want a serious challenge?
    I also miss the challenge that EQdead offered before SOE ruined the game, by dummying it down and focusing on too much raid/group content. EQdead was a well balanced solo and group MMOG for both PvE combat and tradeskills, until "Planes of Power" expansion.
    It took me 4 months of non stop tradeskilling focus to max out tailoring, which was the most difficult tradeskill to master, especially solo without help from guilds or friends feeding you ingredients. It was great being the first 250 tailor on my server and the only 250 tailor for many months. Most players who attempted it quit in frustration thus making it a coveted accomplishment, both financially and emotionally.
    What fun is it to be one of the many to solve a quest or kill a certain mob or master a tradeskill? I like a skill or level based MMOG that is painfully slow to advance in and has a significant penalty for losing in battle, both for PvE and PvP, thus separating the men from the boys, the women from the girls. Reward means nothing without the shadow of possible loss. How can you define success as being significant, if failing is nothing to be feared and everyone and their mother has accomplished the same goals easily?


    Ive played eq-1 and lineage 2. Lineage 2 really doesnt make you feel accomplished.... its kind of like this. He who has no job is he who is the best.... grinding 24/7 was not fun and then dieing to 1 mob and loosing a weapon that took u a long time to make and you have no hope of ever getting it backfor a very long time is really not fun at all. Screw feeling accomplished when that accomplishment can end up lasting a day..... and as for grinding......... it feels more as if you wasted time then anything else since it takes too damn long. If anything the penalty in EQ was not all terribly bad since you were able to get everything back.. just was more of a pain.

    edit: Vanguard sounds cool but what many of you are forgetting to mention is.... FUN. If the game is fun then the game has accomplished what the game is made to do which is be a game first and foremost... not a simulation of stress. If a game can be balanced as in real and fun then that will be a great game.... but any extreme of 1 or the other will either get boring fast.. or not be fun at all.
    Someone said seperate men from boys which I feel is vastly not a correct statement to say. Everyone enjoys different things and should not be blasted just because their fun and your fun translate into 2 different things

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  • anarchyartanarchyart Member Posts: 5,378



    Originally posted by Jorev

    Someone said seperate men from boys which I feel is vastly not a correct statement to say. Everyone enjoys different things and should not be blasted just because their fun and your fun translate into 2 different things




    But this is the point. I'm sick of these games who try and cater to the whole freakin' world. When EQ came out I didn't play it because tons of idiots said "Everquest is SO GAY!" and bashed it to no end. I was a fool and I listened to them thus I missed a year of that god like game. I don't wanna play a game that caters to everyone. That is WoW. And while WoW is an amazing game, its just too easy and general and watered down to be crucial the way Everquest was back in the day. I want a game that half of you HATE and run screaming from, and another 25% says "Its too hard, not my type of game". I'm sorry but we do all like different things and I'm SICK of games that try and be all things to all gamers.

    With what I've read and heard and seen, Vanguard is my great hope for a crucial game. Dark and Light and a few others also have great potential. Hurry up and make 'em already! image

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