Originally posted by Elikal *raises eyebrow* Not wanting to be nitpicking, but Rift is considerably less "comfortable" and easy than most MMOs we had the last years, and namely like WOW. It's quite easy to have one too many roamer, one wandering rift mob to crush you. Levelling past 20+ is considerably slower than WOW, LOTRO or any game of the like. So it sort of seems uncalled for. Dunno what exactly you are preaching here. Hardships as in EQ1 era? Well, we had that debate plenty of times, and my stance is now as it was when EQ1 was new and I decided back then, NOT to play such sort of games. I mean, each to his, but my fun isn't heightened by pain. I just don't function that way. *shrug*
As to the philosophy: "The Light shineth in the darkness, but the darkness comprehended it not." - John 1,5
The mobs are harder and the travel is more difficult, but that's more of a level of aggressive behavior than intelligent behavior. The OP's preference would be that instead of a field full of mobs just hanging out that there be an empty field with a rock, and when you walk by the mob jumps out. Then while you're occupied, his two buddies flank you. Then they all run away when they realize they're going to lose. The mobs in Rift aren't really anymore intelligent than WoW mobs, they just have a purpose (travel across the map and kill stuff).
I think I would prefer fewer, more intelligent, harder to kill mobs. There are issues with that, just as there are with any system. Not enough mobs for the players, etc. But that would be my preference.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Good post OP. However, I am on the other side of the fence. I prefer the themepark stylized gameplay than the sandbox, more structure imo. But I do agree with you that AI needs to become more smarter in a sense. With the Combat mechanics I have designed, the AI should compliment those pretty well to protray a very smart AI.
And for those who do not want penality or says penalty does not immerse you more, how do you suppose to balance gameplay elements? A balance is, good and bad. Just not all good or all bad. Penalty needs to become more active in designs to balance, to provide that risk and reward attributes that is sort of missing today.
Getting philisophical about things; you cannot truly experience pleasure unless you know real pain. A bright sunny day has little meaning unless there are cold, dark, forboding nights to compare it to. There is no life without the fear of death.
I disagree. Knowing the name of the thing isn't what allows you to experience it, nor does any categorization of the experience. Especially when it comes to life and death. Many people live without fear of death everyday, and there would be far less spirituality, and philosophy for that matter, if this was not so.
I see the angle you're trying to approach things with defining things from their main distinctions, which is generally a good approach, but doesn't really work in this case. Pleasure and pain are just two vague concepts that we thought up as inadequate ways to describe sensations, and there's nothing truly mutually defining about them, as is also the case with the other phenomenona you described.
Most people DO fear death, even if they deny it, and even though they don't talk or think about it very often. You don't have to experience it, but you can be aware while sitting and watching a beatiful sunset on a particularly amazing day that things could be much much worse, or that they could be gone in a flash. We will all die someday, and if you aren't spending some time thinking about that, then you are really missing out. Since you seem like you might enjoy contemplating such things, you may like reading the Tibetan Book Of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche. It will encourage you to take off for a weekend by yourself and do nothing but contemplate your own death, every aspect that you can think of, until you have nothing more to say about it. When you come back, you will be a different person.
The point was, there should be some balance struck in these games. If I am going after an awesome piece of gear, there should be an equally awesome chance that I will lose something just as important when I make the attempt. Now, I don't know how that plays out in a video game exactly, and that is a topic for discussion, but one thing seems to be certain now. These games are too easy, too contrived, and people are describing them with increasing frequency as "boring". The same people who played WoW religiously and claim to be themepark game lovers are getting sick of how superficial they are. That tells me that it is tome to up the ante on several fronts of MMO design. Risk vs reward is a good place to get started.
I think about these things everyday (I'm a philosophy major). Rather than arguing that our finitude can't be a defining aspect of our existence, I'm arguing that it is at best one amongst many. Its occurence is not even a logical certainty. Also, psychological devices like fear are immaterial in regards to the existential wholeness of experience.
In any event, your analogy doesn't quite translate. You seem to be attempting to argue that people must experience both "pain" and "pleasure" within the same realm of experience to understand them. That's simply not so - one can experience all sort of misery in their life, and if the game then produced pure pleasure, they could appreciate it.
You might argue that most people approach such games for that levity in the first place. Even if by the "rules" they lose, it could still be in such a way that was lighthearted and not too punishing.
Consider that there may be reasons other than difficulty that people complain about the superficiality of games like WoW and games that take after it, such as the way it draws players into endless treadmills with no real sense of a fulfilled purpose at the end, etc. It's understandable that you want to be engaged in the game, but harsh difficulty is neither necessary nor sufficient to achieve such, depending on other design decisions.
How sweet is a kiss from your lover when you have been apart for a long period of time? How good does a well cooked meal taste when you have been eating roots and grubs on a month-long walkabout? How much does it hurt to lose someone once you have truly fallen in love with them? It's about contrast / opposites. They feed each other. Pleasure becomes dull and meaningless without the contrast of pain. The stars in the sky could not exist without the empty space between them.
You are certainly welcome to disagree, but this has been my experience of life. We would have to be idiots to attempt arguing right or wrong philosophy. I am highly influenced by Eastern thought, so this may help you put my comments in context.
You aren't understanding what I mean by changing these games so that they are more engaging. I'm not talking about simply adding harsh difficulty. In fact many of my penalties have positive aspects to them as well, such as community building side-effects. For those people who want levity, there will always be games for them. The question is, where are the games for those of us who have had enough hand-holding and levity in MMOs?
Nice to see someone shares portions of my philosophy and ideals, and in of all places... a game forum but I agree.
Comments
The mobs are harder and the travel is more difficult, but that's more of a level of aggressive behavior than intelligent behavior. The OP's preference would be that instead of a field full of mobs just hanging out that there be an empty field with a rock, and when you walk by the mob jumps out. Then while you're occupied, his two buddies flank you. Then they all run away when they realize they're going to lose. The mobs in Rift aren't really anymore intelligent than WoW mobs, they just have a purpose (travel across the map and kill stuff).
I think I would prefer fewer, more intelligent, harder to kill mobs. There are issues with that, just as there are with any system. Not enough mobs for the players, etc. But that would be my preference.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
There is no pleasure without pain. There is no light without dark. There is no life without death.
MMO genre needs wows,rift,swtors and such,a place where new people to the genre can learn to understand what they are missing.
Generation P
Good post OP. However, I am on the other side of the fence. I prefer the themepark stylized gameplay than the sandbox, more structure imo. But I do agree with you that AI needs to become more smarter in a sense. With the Combat mechanics I have designed, the AI should compliment those pretty well to protray a very smart AI.
And for those who do not want penality or says penalty does not immerse you more, how do you suppose to balance gameplay elements? A balance is, good and bad. Just not all good or all bad. Penalty needs to become more active in designs to balance, to provide that risk and reward attributes that is sort of missing today.
Nice to see someone shares portions of my philosophy and ideals, and in of all places... a game forum
but I agree.