I have never had an issue with a generic power supply or name brand they both work the same and have the same life expectancy. The only problem I have every had when building a computer is the motherboard, a ciriut frying or a bad board all around. I once had a memoey stick catch on fire because the motherboard kept shorting out and I didn't know it. But nothing to do with any power supplies. I hear them going out is a common occurance, but I have been using the same generic power supply, 450w for the last 4 yrs and have had NO issues!
With the headphone jack going out on you. It sound like an internal connection issue, a short circuit probably. Be careful with it, one day your computer may not reboot.
I will keep in mind Cyberpower as an unreliable company, especially since they are about the same as iBuyPower. Also just beacuse you buy a computer through a third party ie: Newegg, doesn't mean it's better than buying from the company directly, it all ends up going to the same end company. You would think though that if you buy directly FROM the company you get better reliability then buying through a thrid party. Because after all you are going to the company directly and wanting exactly what you are paying for without any mix ups or problems.
But that is just me....
I'm going to say this once and once only.
NEVER buy an unbranded power supply for your PC. Even if it is branded by a well known company CHECK for reviews. Fail to heed my warning and are playing with dice, my friend.
Here is a perfect example of what you could possible be getting yourself into by not taking proper care and choosing the correct power supply.
Now granted they are not rated the same power output or anything like that but it is easy to see a quality unit and a bad one. You can also see how easy it is to be fooled into thinking the cheap unit you are looking at isn't bad.
Another nice example would be the power supply in my friends PC which is rated more than enough for my old 4870x2. We put it into his PC and 3 minutes into a match in Battlefield: Bad Company 2 we could smell a strong electrical burning coming from his power supply.
I seriously can't stress this enough.. you can buy cheap ram.. you can buy a cheap graphics card.. you can buy a cheap processor but for the love of god do NOT skimp on your motherboard or power supply. Those two parts are crucial to keeping the other parts of your computer in working order and the voltages and protections they are required to handle are very delicate.
ALL POWER SUPPLIES ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!
Anyone who says otherwise you can safely disregard anything else they have to say as far as hardware goes!
For the record I never said to buy a geneeric, I said it doesn't really matter in the long run. MY "generic" power supply runs better/ cleaner and faster than any of the other computers in my house (I have 3), it's also newer than the other 2. It's not in the power supply it's in how you take care of it in the long run, or how it was installed! As long as they have good ventilation and aren't damaged out of the box they all work the same. Also you have to consider if you are running a 600w recommended board and you have a 450w/500w power supply you are going to get the burning electrical because your Power Supply is working twice as hard as it should be. So if you're building your computer from scratch look at the specs of the MB before you buy your power supply, because they do tell you the recommended wattage needed!
I will however agree with you on the motherboard, I will NEVER go generic on a board or on memory or a processor. Aside from the power supply those are most important components in your computer, you need all 4 to turn on and run your computer. Buying generic RAM is as bad as buying a generic MB, you get what you pay for and you will end up replacing those more than anything else in your computer if you wanna skimp on them.
All in all you skimp on your computer, you will have problems no matter what you have on the inside. You want a good reliable computer, be willing to put the money out for one otherwise your asking for issues in the long run.
Pay attention to what the recommends are on the MB, RAM and CPU and make sure you're getting all the right componenets that match the MB. You can't pick your CPU then decide to put it in any MB, it doesn't work that way. You have to start with the MB, choose the CPU and make sure you get the RAM the MB specifies it needs... otherwise nothing will match and you just spent money on components that don't work together, therefore you don't have a functioning computer.
This is why you need to do some research on your PSU before buying it..
You might be under the impression your cheap unit is doing better simply by virtue that it hasn't had any issue but have you measured the efficiency? Have you had a look at the gauge of wiring inside? Have you looked at what kind of rectifier they have in it (if any)? Any idea if it has over current protection? How about potential shorts due to dubious insulating (like using packing tape instead of a proper insulator). Even the capacitors are shoddy.
Look, all im saying is that while you might get by with a generic unit and it might be fine for you doesn't mean it isnt risky.
Look like an alright unit? 300+ reviews on new egg.. 3 stars.. $20.. not bad right?
Did you read the links i had in my last post? That is a 200w unit at best. Luckily it has some form of over current protection which will stop it going boom. However... The top fan was not plugged into the board. The cable sleeve around the live cable that went into the board was melted and had solder all over it. The heatsinks were almost non-existant. In general it was just an extremely lethargic unit.. It wouldnt even have qualified as a nice 200w unit let alone 580w. Put that in your PC and your playing a dangerous game.
Again, I understand that your particular unit is fine. And im fine with that. I just really, really, really, strongly recommend people avoid cheap units.
I built my computer and I never said my rig was a cheap rig, I spent at least $1000 on it. You just assumed that because I used a generic power supply that my rig is cheap...
I built this computer from the bottom up I know all I need to know about my system and what it runs and how it runs...
But I am not going to argue with you since you seem to think your word is golden and noone else is entitled to their opinions. I have been building rigs for at least 8yrs now and I have gone though some pretty crappy components.... You have no idea my experience and I never claim to know all like you do. I do know however what my experiences have shown me and that is all that matters to me in the long run...
Besides this post isn't about my rig or power supplies, it was about company etiquette... that was all! You took it to a whole new level! People like you are the ones I like to avoid when I communicate with a company, thanks for making a comment and your voice was heard, I hope you're happy now.
btw, you wanna know my rig stats go to my x-fire profile and it should tell you, they are uploaded and up-to-date.
I have never had an issue with a generic power supply or name brand they both work the same and have the same life expectancy. The only problem I have every had when building a computer is the motherboard, a ciriut frying or a bad board all around. I once had a memoey stick catch on fire because the motherboard kept shorting out and I didn't know it. But nothing to do with any power supplies. I hear them going out is a common occurance, but I have been using the same generic power supply, 450w for the last 4 yrs and have had NO issues!
How do you know that those other problems weren't caused by a bad power supply? They might not have been, but a bad power supply can fry other components, even if the other components were really good. If your computer locks up, or randomly shuts down, or blue screens, your power supply might be the cause. You don't know that your power supply has never been a problem for you unless that has never happened to your computer. It hasn't happened to mine in the year and a half that I've had it.
A lot of people think higher wattage is better, so I'd give a high quality power supply of more modest wattage as an example of a good one:
Compare how that power supply does to the Sunbeam one linked above. Compare the voltage regulation, energy efficiency, and ripple. For that matter, compare whether the power supply actually works rather than shutting down.
The 550 W power supply could deliver 550 W really well, and 650 W passably. The 650 W power supply fried when they tried to pull 467 W from it. Had it been hooked up to a real computer rather than testing equipment, it might have taken other hardware with it when it died.
The problem with the computer in the original post might be nothing more than a bad power supply. Or there might be other problems. But even if a generic power supply isn't causing this problem, it's liable to cause others in the future.
I could very well be that. But if it WAS that why just turn off the temperature sensor for the CPU? Also why not take it through a diagnostic to make sure that is what it was?
We'll never know what the problem was unless they actually do a diagnostic on it. I guess we'll see if they fix it the problem as a whole.
It's time for me to get an upgrade, but when I bought this computer 3 years ago I tried to decide between CyberPower and iBuyPower. I went with CP and haven't had one problem, but who knows what would've happened if I'd picked iBuyPower.
This time around I'm thinking about building my own, though.
I could very well be that. But if it WAS that why just turn off the temperature sensor for the CPU? Also why not take it through a diagnostic to make sure that is what it was?
We'll never know what the problem was unless they actually do a diagnostic on it. I guess we'll see if they fix it the problem as a whole.
Whether it was or wasn't the problem in this case isn't the point here.
The point is that generic power supplies do not deliver their rated wattage, usually nowhere close, that they deliver very dirty power regardless of what you draw from them, giving out of spec voltage and ripple, and that they are very unreliable.
It DOES make a difference, a big difference. At absolute best, buying a cheap power supply means you're reducing the life of your components and roling the dice on having a PSU fail, which in the best of times will only take the PSU out, but will often take out other components with it. At worst, you're buying something that won't power your system at all when you use it (and you're always rolling the dice on getting nothing but a paperweight), and trying can cause everything from instability to component damage.
I think this video from Corsair pretty much demonstrates the usefulness of junk PSUs. At only 335W under the best conditions imaginable, those "budget" PSUs all fried within 2 minutes, six out of six, and they're 450W PSUs! So tell me, would you want to risk drawing 335W from that PSU, and take a chance that yours will fair better than all six of theirs? How about 300W; would you trust it with 300? Okay, how about 250W? That PSU might pull 250W in that room temperature test, but what about pulling that much in a warm case? Okay, so maybe we'll give it more slack and go to 225W, would it trust it, honestly, to pull 225W, inside of a warm case, for hours on end?
The point I'm making is this: If I have a machine with a realistic gaming load of 225W, why would I buy a junk "450W" PSU (that's the cheapest with a PCIE connector) that might, and again I stress might deliver that much power safely while straining my components with bad ripple and voltage, when I could buy a GOOD 300-400W PSU that I KNOW would deliver 225W, and would do it cleanly, and in spec, and for not much more money (if any at all)? More to the point, why would you?
Extrapolating that out to higher wattages, if you're powering a slightly more serious system, something that might draw, say, 300W under load, are you going to buy a cheap junk 600WPSU that might safely deliver 300W (same 50% load as our last example), and almost certainly won't safely deliver 400-450W, or are you going to go pick up a nice 350-400W PSU that you absolutely know will deliver that wattage, in the same rough price range?
As Corsair rightly asks, exactly what does budget mean?
This isn't an I told you so sort of post, that's not the point. The point is to make sure you understand that any real cost-benefit examination of power supplies, when thought through, really comes out against buying cheap junk power supplies.
Hmm, this is the exact opposite experience that I had with Ibuypower. Of course, I researched all the components I had put in and made sure they were good, spent some time talking with the techs on their forums. I have had this rig for about 2 years now and it runs like a champ.
Kinda sucks that you had a bad experience with them, hope ya either get it fixed or get your money back.
It's time for me to get an upgrade, but when I bought this computer 3 years ago I tried to decide between CyberPower and iBuyPower. I went with CP and haven't had one problem, but who knows what would've happened if I'd picked iBuyPower.
This time around I'm thinking about building my own, though.
Good thinking. All so called "brand" computers try to cut corners and you end up with a inferior machine. It might sound good when you check the speccs but all the best computers are custom built.
The 2 alternatives you have is building it yourself or decide which parts you need, make a list and go down to your local computer geek store and have them custom build it for you. It is not really that expensive to have someone else build it for you if you are unsecure, but building it yourself is not that hard.
The hardest part is knowing which parts you need, the second hardest is find the small problem you usually get, like that you forgot to put in the reset button or that you have some problem finding the right raid driver or something similar.
It usually take me about an hour to do the building and 2 more hours to install OS and a few neccesarily programs, and to put in old documents and other stuff from the old computer.
If you plan to build one and need advice or help, just send me a PM.
That is very awesome. I just wish more research was done in the beginning. He probably would have been saved a whole lot of hassle. I will keep this company in mind and do some research on it.
I'm a computer technician and I am always looking for referrals like this. Thanks a million!
i got a nice cyberpower gaming rig (i got it from newegg.com instead) and i never had blue screen or any other color screen or crash... AoC online on ultra gives me much lag, but Rift on ultra runs smooth (tho i just ordered a better videocard and PSU)
when i first got my desktop i opened it and made sure every single hardware was well connected before turning it on and never had a problem.... my only trouble lately is when im pluggin headsets to the front 3mm audio jack at night. I smell that its because of the static cos it only happens when im cold, but it makes the pc to reboot when it happens sometimes... ive been lazy enough not to open it again to check taht out so i just plug the headsets before night time hehehehhe
You know, that is actually an interesting read. After actually reading the legal document, I can't fault iBuyPower for what they were found guilty of, because I had assumed the same thing. Apparently, if you sell a computer, you have to have it FCC tested for radio interference, even if all the individual parts of that computer are already tested for FCC compliance.
It lead me to this document, which outlines FCC compliance for personal computers (and other "digital devices"):
Apparently anything that has an internal clock that operates at a frequency of greater than 9kHz classifies as a "digital device", but certain very low power devices are exempt (wrist watches and pocket calculators, for example).
If the device includes a modem, or can otherwise hook into the telephone system, it's subject to additional FCC requirements, which must be done before you can even market or advertise the device.
It only costs $845 to apply for FCC approval to sell your home-built computers (per model, because if the internals vary significantly, it must have a different license), and that is in addition to testing fees, which "vary widely depending on the testing company."The complance label must be affixed to the device (I note this Dell laptop I'm using at work has one)
There are some exceptions to requiring FCC certification though, but they pretty well only apply to wrist watched, digital clocks and timers, and industrial equipment. For iBuyPower to have only been fined $14,000 is pretty interesting too, the penalty from the FCC is "forfeiture of all offending equipment, up to $100,000/$200,000 penalty for an indiviual/corporation, up to twice the retai price of the equipment, and up to $10,000 per day administrative fees"
Makes me wonder how these "Build your Own" PC sites stay open in the US then, since each motherboard/CPU combination technical is a unique Class B device and would require individual certification.
I used to use generic/no name power supplies in my builds too. This was several years ago, and PC's rarely used over 150W of power and "enthusast" power supplies didn't really exist, but I didn't do any homework on power supplies and just grabbed whatever was cheapest that looked like it was going to fit.
Most of the time, they worked fine, I have to admit.
Occasionaly, I'd have a computer that just would run like crap. Random cold reboots, application crashes, data corruption, they would just be totally unstable, and it would be almost the same components (including power supply) as other successful builds that had no problems. It made me pull my hair out.
Eventually, I had 3 different power supplies blow up, in the same year. These weren't all the same model or size of power supply, but one physically exploded and threw capacitor confettii all over the place, one smoked up, and another sparked, briefly shot flames out the fan vent and died. All 3 of them trashed the computer, motherboard, RAM, Memory, two took the CPU with it, one even took the video card with it. I finally had found a smoking gun (literally) for my computer instability problems.
From that time forward, I did some power supply research. Magically, almost all of my systems now are pretty stable. Some of this could be that we aren't in the Windows 95/98 era any more, and maybe it's just that hardware and drivers have gotten better, but I don't think it's a conincidence that using high quality power supplies has definitely helped.
But in his defense, the majority of computers with crappy power supplies did run just fine, but it wasn't 100%, and I no longer trust anything I put my name behind to a crappy power supply (or crappy anything for that matter, even if it's not the cheapest and I get underbid by Joe's CPU Shack down the street - I get the repeat business that he doesn't)
Indeed, I ran my first gaming machine off a cheap Apevia 520W PSU. Back then they were known as Aspire, but same guys. The unit lacked Active PFC and other things we consider standard to decent modern PSUs (no wire sheaths, few PCIE connectors, etc), and it ran... okay. It went fine for awhile, then finally gave out one day, but didn't take anything else with it. Then I "upgraded" to a crappy Xion 600W PSU, again with no active PFC. It was just fine for my machine though, well, more or less. Being able to run an Athlon 64 3700+ San Diego and a single Radeon X850Pro and a pair of 80GB drives was hardly noteworthy, but that's just it, computers didn't consume much even half a dozen years ago, so you could get away with running POS PSUs.
These days, I'm a lot more leary about doing that, partly because I'm less ignorant about the consequences of cheap PSUs, and partly because systems tend to draw more these days anyways. My quad core Phenom II and dual Radeon HD 5770s aren't really extraordinarily power hungry by today's standards, but they certainly are compared to what I was running back in those days, so I wouldn't trust those kinds of PSUs any more.
I have actually bought or helped to buy five PCs through iBuyPower.com over the last few years and had serious issues with only one of them, and it was from a bad mobo and was replaced no fuss no muss (although it took longer than I would have liked). So I guess as with everything, for every horror story plastered all over the internet there are ten happy endings that noone ever hears about...
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
I have actually bought or helped to buy five PCs through iBuyPower.com over the last few years and had serious issues with only one of them, and it was from a bad mobo and was replaced no fuss no muss (although it took longer than I would have liked). So I guess as with everything, for every horror story plastered all over the internet there are ten happy endings that noone ever hears about...
This is true, but the real question is when your dealing with a thousand dollar investment do you really want to take a gamble? I know I don't.
It's not a 100% guaranteed, this one will work and that one won't. But if you have your choice between a computer with a 60% chance of working right without giving you any trouble, or a 90% chance of the same, which do you prefer?
I could very well be that. But if it WAS that why just turn off the temperature sensor for the CPU? Also why not take it through a diagnostic to make sure that is what it was?
We'll never know what the problem was unless they actually do a diagnostic on it. I guess we'll see if they fix it the problem as a whole.
Whether it was or wasn't the problem in this case isn't the point here.
The point is that generic power supplies do not deliver their rated wattage, usually nowhere close, that they deliver very dirty power regardless of what you draw from them, giving out of spec voltage and ripple, and that they are very unreliable.
It DOES make a difference, a big difference. At absolute best, buying a cheap power supply means you're reducing the life of your components and roling the dice on having a PSU fail, which in the best of times will only take the PSU out, but will often take out other components with it. At worst, you're buying something that won't power your system at all when you use it (and you're always rolling the dice on getting nothing but a paperweight), and trying can cause everything from instability to component damage.
I think this video from Corsair pretty much demonstrates the usefulness of junk PSUs. At only 335W under the best conditions imaginable, those "budget" PSUs all fried within 2 minutes, six out of six, and they're 450W PSUs! So tell me, would you want to risk drawing 335W from that PSU, and take a chance that yours will fair better than all six of theirs? How about 300W; would you trust it with 300? Okay, how about 250W? That PSU might pull 250W in that room temperature test, but what about pulling that much in a warm case? Okay, so maybe we'll give it more slack and go to 225W, would it trust it, honestly, to pull 225W, inside of a warm case, for hours on end?
The point I'm making is this: If I have a machine with a realistic gaming load of 225W, why would I buy a junk "450W" PSU (that's the cheapest with a PCIE connector) that might, and again I stress might deliver that much power safely while straining my components with bad ripple and voltage, when I could buy a GOOD 300-400W PSU that I KNOW would deliver 225W, and would do it cleanly, and in spec, and for not much more money (if any at all)? More to the point, why would you?
Extrapolating that out to higher wattages, if you're powering a slightly more serious system, something that might draw, say, 300W under load, are you going to buy a cheap junk 600WPSU that might safely deliver 300W (same 50% load as our last example), and almost certainly won't safely deliver 400-450W, or are you going to go pick up a nice 350-400W PSU that you absolutely know will deliver that wattage, in the same rough price range?
As Corsair rightly asks, exactly what does budget mean?
This isn't an I told you so sort of post, that's not the point. The point is to make sure you understand that any real cost-benefit examination of power supplies, when thought through, really comes out against buying cheap junk power supplies.
Thank you for making that post.
Sometimes I really wonder if people take me seriously when im talking about cheap power supplies even in real life.
Part of the problem is that power supply reviews aren't that easy to read. For a video card review, it's easy to look at it and say, this video card gave 30 frames per second and that one gave 50, and understand what that means. For a power supply review, it's not obvious why temperature should matter, what the various voltages mean, how much ripple is a problem, and so forth. It also doesn't help that there are some really bad power supply reviews out there, where a site will get a 1000 W power supply, pull 300 W from it, observe that it didn't explode, and say it must be good.
Furthermore, 1200 W power supplies are irrelevant to most gamers. Most gaming machines should get a power supply somewhere in the 380-650 W range. Above that is really only for some CrossFire or SLI builds, which not many people run. And even those rarely need more than 850 W or so.
If you're going to pull 300 W from a power supply, then what matters to you is how well the power supply can deliver 300 W, not what would happen if you tried to pull 1500 W from it. Now, you want some headroom, so if you're expecting to pull 300 W at peak, you want a power supply that could do 400 W well, too. But it doesn't matter what would happen if you tried to pull 1000 W.
Just buy a corsair power supply then u know ur getting a good power supply.
But is a Seasonic power supply with a Corsair sticker on it really any better than the same power supply with an XFX sticker, or an Antec sticker, or, for that matter, a Seasonic sticker? What if one of the other options is cheaper for exactly the same power supply? And what if it's a rebranded Channel Well power supply? Corsair's CX series isn't bad, but it's not very good, either, and it does the inflated wattages at low temperatures game that Corsair used to (rightly) criticize other companies for.
I bought a cyperpowerinc pc a long time ago and everything worked great except 5 years later when I tried to add a 2nd pci-e card I discovered that the second slot on my p5n32sli-se deluxe was useless. You just gotta test everything they send you ASAP and if it's faulty you might as well get a refund because there customer service department is trash; or so people say and complain about. I would still try and buy another one from them, just because it's so cheap, but seriously, now that I know, I build my own pc's, that's the way to go. I know, I commited a comma crime, oh well. I loved my damn cyberpower until a couple years ago.
edit: and as far as power supply, seasonic x750 kicks ass, I have one. I don't mess around with 2 gpus anymore though
My favorite power supply trick is the "We have 4 12V rails that can each can deliver 240W*, so our Power supply is rated for 960W.
*Not to exceed 90A total across all rails"
I am glad we are getting away from multi-rail power supplies, I thought they were more hassle than it was worth. Now it's the Peak vs RMS power marketing scheme (the same one audio amplifiers have used for years).
I purchased a PC from Ibuypower in 2003 and again in 2007. First one had the wrong CPU (533 FSB) but they cross shipped the correct one (800 FSB) to me to put in myself. The one in 2007 had a generic PSU in the place of the brand name one I chose. I called them and they refunded the difference - at my request. Both PCs still run to this day though they have been given to "less PC literate" family members.
I also have 2 friends that ordered laptops and both run fine to this day. Build everything myself now so I won't be using them, but I do recommend them if you are unsure how to build a PC.
Comments
For the record I never said to buy a geneeric, I said it doesn't really matter in the long run. MY "generic" power supply runs better/ cleaner and faster than any of the other computers in my house (I have 3), it's also newer than the other 2. It's not in the power supply it's in how you take care of it in the long run, or how it was installed! As long as they have good ventilation and aren't damaged out of the box they all work the same. Also you have to consider if you are running a 600w recommended board and you have a 450w/500w power supply you are going to get the burning electrical because your Power Supply is working twice as hard as it should be. So if you're building your computer from scratch look at the specs of the MB before you buy your power supply, because they do tell you the recommended wattage needed!
I will however agree with you on the motherboard, I will NEVER go generic on a board or on memory or a processor. Aside from the power supply those are most important components in your computer, you need all 4 to turn on and run your computer. Buying generic RAM is as bad as buying a generic MB, you get what you pay for and you will end up replacing those more than anything else in your computer if you wanna skimp on them.
All in all you skimp on your computer, you will have problems no matter what you have on the inside. You want a good reliable computer, be willing to put the money out for one otherwise your asking for issues in the long run.
Pay attention to what the recommends are on the MB, RAM and CPU and make sure you're getting all the right componenets that match the MB. You can't pick your CPU then decide to put it in any MB, it doesn't work that way. You have to start with the MB, choose the CPU and make sure you get the RAM the MB specifies it needs... otherwise nothing will match and you just spent money on components that don't work together, therefore you don't have a functioning computer.
This is why you need to do some research on your PSU before buying it..
You might be under the impression your cheap unit is doing better simply by virtue that it hasn't had any issue but have you measured the efficiency? Have you had a look at the gauge of wiring inside? Have you looked at what kind of rectifier they have in it (if any)? Any idea if it has over current protection? How about potential shorts due to dubious insulating (like using packing tape instead of a proper insulator). Even the capacitors are shoddy.
Look, all im saying is that while you might get by with a generic unit and it might be fine for you doesn't mean it isnt risky.
Have a look at this..
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817709011
Look like an alright unit? 300+ reviews on new egg.. 3 stars.. $20.. not bad right?
Did you read the links i had in my last post? That is a 200w unit at best. Luckily it has some form of over current protection which will stop it going boom. However... The top fan was not plugged into the board. The cable sleeve around the live cable that went into the board was melted and had solder all over it. The heatsinks were almost non-existant. In general it was just an extremely lethargic unit.. It wouldnt even have qualified as a nice 200w unit let alone 580w. Put that in your PC and your playing a dangerous game.
Again, I understand that your particular unit is fine. And im fine with that. I just really, really, really, strongly recommend people avoid cheap units.
I built my computer and I never said my rig was a cheap rig, I spent at least $1000 on it. You just assumed that because I used a generic power supply that my rig is cheap...
I built this computer from the bottom up I know all I need to know about my system and what it runs and how it runs...
But I am not going to argue with you since you seem to think your word is golden and noone else is entitled to their opinions. I have been building rigs for at least 8yrs now and I have gone though some pretty crappy components.... You have no idea my experience and I never claim to know all like you do. I do know however what my experiences have shown me and that is all that matters to me in the long run...
Besides this post isn't about my rig or power supplies, it was about company etiquette... that was all! You took it to a whole new level! People like you are the ones I like to avoid when I communicate with a company, thanks for making a comment and your voice was heard, I hope you're happy now.
btw, you wanna know my rig stats go to my x-fire profile and it should tell you, they are uploaded and up-to-date.
How do you know that those other problems weren't caused by a bad power supply? They might not have been, but a bad power supply can fry other components, even if the other components were really good. If your computer locks up, or randomly shuts down, or blue screens, your power supply might be the cause. You don't know that your power supply has never been a problem for you unless that has never happened to your computer. It hasn't happened to mine in the year and a half that I've had it.
A lot of people think higher wattage is better, so I'd give a high quality power supply of more modest wattage as an example of a good one:
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=219
Compare how that power supply does to the Sunbeam one linked above. Compare the voltage regulation, energy efficiency, and ripple. For that matter, compare whether the power supply actually works rather than shutting down.
Or from a different review site:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/03/01/kingwin_lzp550_550w_power_supply_review/
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/12/17/diablotek_phd650_650w_power_supply_review/
The 550 W power supply could deliver 550 W really well, and 650 W passably. The 650 W power supply fried when they tried to pull 467 W from it. Had it been hooked up to a real computer rather than testing equipment, it might have taken other hardware with it when it died.
The problem with the computer in the original post might be nothing more than a bad power supply. Or there might be other problems. But even if a generic power supply isn't causing this problem, it's liable to cause others in the future.
I could very well be that. But if it WAS that why just turn off the temperature sensor for the CPU? Also why not take it through a diagnostic to make sure that is what it was?
We'll never know what the problem was unless they actually do a diagnostic on it. I guess we'll see if they fix it the problem as a whole.
It's time for me to get an upgrade, but when I bought this computer 3 years ago I tried to decide between CyberPower and iBuyPower. I went with CP and haven't had one problem, but who knows what would've happened if I'd picked iBuyPower.
This time around I'm thinking about building my own, though.
Re: IBuyPower and reseach
In just 5 minutes of looking I found this:
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2006/DA-06-2497A1.html
Let's party like it is 1863!
Whether it was or wasn't the problem in this case isn't the point here.
The point is that generic power supplies do not deliver their rated wattage, usually nowhere close, that they deliver very dirty power regardless of what you draw from them, giving out of spec voltage and ripple, and that they are very unreliable.
It DOES make a difference, a big difference. At absolute best, buying a cheap power supply means you're reducing the life of your components and roling the dice on having a PSU fail, which in the best of times will only take the PSU out, but will often take out other components with it. At worst, you're buying something that won't power your system at all when you use it (and you're always rolling the dice on getting nothing but a paperweight), and trying can cause everything from instability to component damage.
I think this video from Corsair pretty much demonstrates the usefulness of junk PSUs. At only 335W under the best conditions imaginable, those "budget" PSUs all fried within 2 minutes, six out of six, and they're 450W PSUs! So tell me, would you want to risk drawing 335W from that PSU, and take a chance that yours will fair better than all six of theirs? How about 300W; would you trust it with 300? Okay, how about 250W? That PSU might pull 250W in that room temperature test, but what about pulling that much in a warm case? Okay, so maybe we'll give it more slack and go to 225W, would it trust it, honestly, to pull 225W, inside of a warm case, for hours on end?
The point I'm making is this: If I have a machine with a realistic gaming load of 225W, why would I buy a junk "450W" PSU (that's the cheapest with a PCIE connector) that might, and again I stress might deliver that much power safely while straining my components with bad ripple and voltage, when I could buy a GOOD 300-400W PSU that I KNOW would deliver 225W, and would do it cleanly, and in spec, and for not much more money (if any at all)? More to the point, why would you?
Extrapolating that out to higher wattages, if you're powering a slightly more serious system, something that might draw, say, 300W under load, are you going to buy a cheap junk 600WPSU that might safely deliver 300W (same 50% load as our last example), and almost certainly won't safely deliver 400-450W, or are you going to go pick up a nice 350-400W PSU that you absolutely know will deliver that wattage, in the same rough price range?
As Corsair rightly asks, exactly what does budget mean?
This isn't an I told you so sort of post, that's not the point. The point is to make sure you understand that any real cost-benefit examination of power supplies, when thought through, really comes out against buying cheap junk power supplies.
If you are so computer savvy you should have built a PC for your bro and saved him some money. Lesson learned.
Hmm, this is the exact opposite experience that I had with Ibuypower. Of course, I researched all the components I had put in and made sure they were good, spent some time talking with the techs on their forums. I have had this rig for about 2 years now and it runs like a champ.
Kinda sucks that you had a bad experience with them, hope ya either get it fixed or get your money back.
Good thinking. All so called "brand" computers try to cut corners and you end up with a inferior machine. It might sound good when you check the speccs but all the best computers are custom built.
The 2 alternatives you have is building it yourself or decide which parts you need, make a list and go down to your local computer geek store and have them custom build it for you. It is not really that expensive to have someone else build it for you if you are unsecure, but building it yourself is not that hard.
The hardest part is knowing which parts you need, the second hardest is find the small problem you usually get, like that you forgot to put in the reset button or that you have some problem finding the right raid driver or something similar.
It usually take me about an hour to do the building and 2 more hours to install OS and a few neccesarily programs, and to put in old documents and other stuff from the old computer.
If you plan to build one and need advice or help, just send me a PM.
i got a nice cyberpower gaming rig (i got it from newegg.com instead) and i never had blue screen or any other color screen or crash... AoC online on ultra gives me much lag, but Rift on ultra runs smooth (tho i just ordered a better videocard and PSU)
when i first got my desktop i opened it and made sure every single hardware was well connected before turning it on and never had a problem.... my only trouble lately is when im pluggin headsets to the front 3mm audio jack at night. I smell that its because of the static cos it only happens when im cold, but it makes the pc to reboot when it happens sometimes... ive been lazy enough not to open it again to check taht out so i just plug the headsets before night time hehehehhe
You know, that is actually an interesting read. After actually reading the legal document, I can't fault iBuyPower for what they were found guilty of, because I had assumed the same thing. Apparently, if you sell a computer, you have to have it FCC tested for radio interference, even if all the individual parts of that computer are already tested for FCC compliance.
It lead me to this document, which outlines FCC compliance for personal computers (and other "digital devices"):
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet62/oet62rev.pdf
Apparently anything that has an internal clock that operates at a frequency of greater than 9kHz classifies as a "digital device", but certain very low power devices are exempt (wrist watches and pocket calculators, for example).
If the device includes a modem, or can otherwise hook into the telephone system, it's subject to additional FCC requirements, which must be done before you can even market or advertise the device.
It only costs $845 to apply for FCC approval to sell your home-built computers (per model, because if the internals vary significantly, it must have a different license), and that is in addition to testing fees, which "vary widely depending on the testing company."The complance label must be affixed to the device (I note this Dell laptop I'm using at work has one)
There are some exceptions to requiring FCC certification though, but they pretty well only apply to wrist watched, digital clocks and timers, and industrial equipment.
For iBuyPower to have only been fined $14,000 is pretty interesting too, the penalty from the FCC is "forfeiture of all offending equipment, up to $100,000/$200,000 penalty for an indiviual/corporation, up to twice the retai price of the equipment, and up to $10,000 per day administrative fees"
Makes me wonder how these "Build your Own" PC sites stay open in the US then, since each motherboard/CPU combination technical is a unique Class B device and would require individual certification.
Somewhat in Caradae's defense:
I used to use generic/no name power supplies in my builds too. This was several years ago, and PC's rarely used over 150W of power and "enthusast" power supplies didn't really exist, but I didn't do any homework on power supplies and just grabbed whatever was cheapest that looked like it was going to fit.
Most of the time, they worked fine, I have to admit.
Occasionaly, I'd have a computer that just would run like crap. Random cold reboots, application crashes, data corruption, they would just be totally unstable, and it would be almost the same components (including power supply) as other successful builds that had no problems. It made me pull my hair out.
Eventually, I had 3 different power supplies blow up, in the same year. These weren't all the same model or size of power supply, but one physically exploded and threw capacitor confettii all over the place, one smoked up, and another sparked, briefly shot flames out the fan vent and died. All 3 of them trashed the computer, motherboard, RAM, Memory, two took the CPU with it, one even took the video card with it. I finally had found a smoking gun (literally) for my computer instability problems.
From that time forward, I did some power supply research. Magically, almost all of my systems now are pretty stable. Some of this could be that we aren't in the Windows 95/98 era any more, and maybe it's just that hardware and drivers have gotten better, but I don't think it's a conincidence that using high quality power supplies has definitely helped.
But in his defense, the majority of computers with crappy power supplies did run just fine, but it wasn't 100%, and I no longer trust anything I put my name behind to a crappy power supply (or crappy anything for that matter, even if it's not the cheapest and I get underbid by Joe's CPU Shack down the street - I get the repeat business that he doesn't)
Indeed, I ran my first gaming machine off a cheap Apevia 520W PSU. Back then they were known as Aspire, but same guys. The unit lacked Active PFC and other things we consider standard to decent modern PSUs (no wire sheaths, few PCIE connectors, etc), and it ran... okay. It went fine for awhile, then finally gave out one day, but didn't take anything else with it. Then I "upgraded" to a crappy Xion 600W PSU, again with no active PFC. It was just fine for my machine though, well, more or less. Being able to run an Athlon 64 3700+ San Diego and a single Radeon X850Pro and a pair of 80GB drives was hardly noteworthy, but that's just it, computers didn't consume much even half a dozen years ago, so you could get away with running POS PSUs.
These days, I'm a lot more leary about doing that, partly because I'm less ignorant about the consequences of cheap PSUs, and partly because systems tend to draw more these days anyways. My quad core Phenom II and dual Radeon HD 5770s aren't really extraordinarily power hungry by today's standards, but they certainly are compared to what I was running back in those days, so I wouldn't trust those kinds of PSUs any more.
I have actually bought or helped to buy five PCs through iBuyPower.com over the last few years and had serious issues with only one of them, and it was from a bad mobo and was replaced no fuss no muss (although it took longer than I would have liked). So I guess as with everything, for every horror story plastered all over the internet there are ten happy endings that noone ever hears about...
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
This is true, but the real question is when your dealing with a thousand dollar investment do you really want to take a gamble? I know I don't.
It's not a 100% guaranteed, this one will work and that one won't. But if you have your choice between a computer with a 60% chance of working right without giving you any trouble, or a 90% chance of the same, which do you prefer?
Thank you for making that post.
Sometimes I really wonder if people take me seriously when im talking about cheap power supplies even in real life.
There's an adage I use for situations like that..
Junk in > Junk out
http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/power_supply/corsair_ax_1200w_atx_psu_review/5
THAT is a good power supply. Here is a nice little quote from the summery page.
'Did I also mention that it is capable of holding a 1522w load at 50°C and even peaking at 1600w for a minute or two? Yum.'
Anyone who is prone to buying a cheap unit should have a look at the review and tell me you don't get what you pay for.
Part of the problem is that power supply reviews aren't that easy to read. For a video card review, it's easy to look at it and say, this video card gave 30 frames per second and that one gave 50, and understand what that means. For a power supply review, it's not obvious why temperature should matter, what the various voltages mean, how much ripple is a problem, and so forth. It also doesn't help that there are some really bad power supply reviews out there, where a site will get a 1000 W power supply, pull 300 W from it, observe that it didn't explode, and say it must be good.
Furthermore, 1200 W power supplies are irrelevant to most gamers. Most gaming machines should get a power supply somewhere in the 380-650 W range. Above that is really only for some CrossFire or SLI builds, which not many people run. And even those rarely need more than 850 W or so.
If you're going to pull 300 W from a power supply, then what matters to you is how well the power supply can deliver 300 W, not what would happen if you tried to pull 1500 W from it. Now, you want some headroom, so if you're expecting to pull 300 W at peak, you want a power supply that could do 400 W well, too. But it doesn't matter what would happen if you tried to pull 1000 W.
Just buy a corsair power supply then u know ur getting a good power supply.
But is a Seasonic power supply with a Corsair sticker on it really any better than the same power supply with an XFX sticker, or an Antec sticker, or, for that matter, a Seasonic sticker? What if one of the other options is cheaper for exactly the same power supply? And what if it's a rebranded Channel Well power supply? Corsair's CX series isn't bad, but it's not very good, either, and it does the inflated wattages at low temperatures game that Corsair used to (rightly) criticize other companies for.
I bought a cyperpowerinc pc a long time ago and everything worked great except 5 years later when I tried to add a 2nd pci-e card I discovered that the second slot on my p5n32sli-se deluxe was useless. You just gotta test everything they send you ASAP and if it's faulty you might as well get a refund because there customer service department is trash; or so people say and complain about. I would still try and buy another one from them, just because it's so cheap, but seriously, now that I know, I build my own pc's, that's the way to go. I know, I commited a comma crime, oh well. I loved my damn cyberpower until a couple years ago.
edit: and as far as power supply, seasonic x750 kicks ass, I have one. I don't mess around with 2 gpus anymore though
My favorite power supply trick is the "We have 4 12V rails that can each can deliver 240W*, so our Power supply is rated for 960W.
*Not to exceed 90A total across all rails"
I am glad we are getting away from multi-rail power supplies, I thought they were more hassle than it was worth. Now it's the Peak vs RMS power marketing scheme (the same one audio amplifiers have used for years).
I purchased a PC from Ibuypower in 2003 and again in 2007. First one had the wrong CPU (533 FSB) but they cross shipped the correct one (800 FSB) to me to put in myself. The one in 2007 had a generic PSU in the place of the brand name one I chose. I called them and they refunded the difference - at my request. Both PCs still run to this day though they have been given to "less PC literate" family members.
I also have 2 friends that ordered laptops and both run fine to this day. Build everything myself now so I won't be using them, but I do recommend them if you are unsure how to build a PC.