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Read OP then vote, let's see if WE can change gaming.

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Comments

  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,316

    I think you misunderstand what the level-less means in what I believe  most want. A game without character levels means that the progression is based on different formulas.


     


    Some ideas of what would make the game more fun:


     


    A wide diverse skill set that can be fleshed out. Allow only a certain number of skills to be learned.


     


    Story and player driven events both in PvP and Pve.


     


    -PvE wise there are raids for random dropped rare crafting materials, armor and  weapons, and so on. PvP there is land control and rewards for picking factions.


     


    -Progression in the world itself in status and fame though actions.


     


    Player driven economy and player controlled world.


     


    This is a hybrid sandbox/theme park design.

  • fatboy21007fatboy21007 Member Posts: 409

    check out Xsyon. no levels ingame..armor dont mean squat but you have different skills that you can level....(epic easy). the game is a true sandbox as all content you create...all quests..u create. it is full ffa pvp/loot also. See ya ingame :-)

  • therain93therain93 Member UncommonPosts: 2,039

    Originally posted by Akarn1007

    Not me, no levels = no real sense of accomplishment imo

    The achiever gaming personality type would need something in lieu of levels.

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    Heck YES. I played it for 5 years: it was called SWG and I had a blast!

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • z80paranoiaz80paranoia Member Posts: 410

    I would love a game like the op describes. Difficulty could be controlled by making the "zones" range in difficulty. You know you are skilled (or have a lot of friends with you) when you can walk through a very difficult zone without getting killed. Newbies would probably stick to the easy zones where they can easily kill huge armies of mobs solo until they are more comfortable with the harder content in the more advanced zones.

    Guild Wars 2 is my religion

  • DnomsedDnomsed Member UncommonPosts: 261

    It would really depend on the content.  Giving the players a very limited toolset to work with is fine so long as the challenge is there.  For pvp, the incentive would need to be bragging rights.  Pvpers love to swing their epeens around so a developer would have to really bring that to the front.  Have leaderboards, kill lists, and combat stats posted in game to really separate the wheat from the chaff.  I don't think pve would be all that different from what we have today.  People would naturally want to get world firsts for difficult encounters.  Pve'rs tend to enjoy the aspect of getting their friends together and figuring out what it takes to beat encounters and that could easily be done in a leveless, high parity, setting.

    I can log onto a games test server and roll up a pregenerated level capped character and still have a lot of fun even though I didn't raise up that character.

    Warhammer fanatic since '85.
    image

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Member UncommonPosts: 4,641

    Originally posted by Hewra

    No lvl, no DING! thats just booring and sad.

     

    sounds like some ppl need to get their grind on.

     

    God I hope that is sarcasm.

     

    Anyway.....yes to SOME games without levels.  As someone else so eloquently stated, games without levels base your progression on other things that, at least to me, are more valuable....like skill development, for one.  Does this mean I won't play games that HAVE levels....no, but I do enjoy some diversity in every game genre and THIS one needs it badly.

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • Justin83xJustin83x Member Posts: 406

    Originally posted by therain93

    Originally posted by Akarn1007

    Not me, no levels = no real sense of accomplishment imo

    The achiever gaming personality type would need something in lieu of levels.

     Thats why I said the game would have a progress level for your toon. It would be just for bragging rights, and for those who need to feel acomplishment. Maybe they could find a way to tie that to unlocking harder zones. It wouldn't make you stronger just let you have cooler looking stuff, and harder content.

    image

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,039

    I think the choice of playing a level-less game depends on how well the game is made. The game the OP describes, doesn't sound very fun because it doesn't actually include any character growth or progression, it's like an older FPS where you can just swap between different static weapons. But there are level-less games that have been implemented very well in the past, and in general, I prefer them to level-based ones.

  • Justin83xJustin83x Member Posts: 406

    Originally posted by z80paranoia

    I would love a game like the op describes. Difficulty could be controlled by making the "zones" range in difficulty. You know you are skilled (or have a lot of friends with you) when you can walk through a very difficult zone without getting killed. Newbies would probably stick to the easy zones where they can easily kill huge armies of mobs solo until they are more comfortable with the harder content in the more advanced zones.

     Finally someone fully understands what I meant lol. Having leader boards and stuff would most likely be in the game. Remember I'm not talking about the full game, just what the combat would be like.

    image

  • Justin83xJustin83x Member Posts: 406

    Originally posted by Ridelynn

    I think the choice of playing a level-less game depends on how well the game is made. The game the OP describes, doesn't sound very fun because it doesn't actually include any character growth or progression, it's like an older FPS where you can just swap between different static weapons. But there are level-less games that have been implemented very well in the past, and in general, I prefer them to level-based ones.

     Again I'm not talking about the full scope of what the game would offer, just how the combat would be.

    image

  • ThekandyThekandy Member Posts: 621

    An mmorpg without levels could be interesting, though i'd suspect that there would have to be some other form of progression instead of levels.

    I can't remember any mmo that didn't have some form of levels to improve, skill levels like Eve and SWG before the overhaul, straight up levels like WoW and Everquest and everything in between.

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072



    Originally posted by Justin83x


    Originally posted by Kuinn


    Originally posted by Ragnaven

    a skill based game with leveling skills is still a level based game, the only leveless games I have ever seen are fps. Most rts's these days even add in levels of a type. So I doubt we will ever see a truely leveless mmo, but it may move away from the idea of character levels. Or it may be we see more hybrids that require you to level x number of skills x number of times to level like the elder scrolls games.

     
    Gaining a skill, skill point, or ability is not "leveling up" in my eyes. I guess it's a matter of an opinion what leveling is then, to me it is when a character simply just gets better in every way after a level up like it is done in just about every level based game, resulting the char to be uber powerful after a few dozen levels, usually becoming a demigod in the eyes of a low level char.
     
    If you just get skills and abilities your char does not get tougher or hit harder, the char simply is more skilled having more variety in his toolbox. No demigod complex here.

     Leveling up either through char level, or skill progression still creates stronger end game toons. So technically its still leveling up. They just go about it in different ways. If you have a toon thats maxed out his str stat say, and someone who just started the game 10 mins ago. The guy who worked all that time to max his str will pwn the new guy. Everyone keeps talking about how they want play skill based games. This is the only way I can think of where player skill would always be the only deciding factor in fights.

     I said "fixed base stats" so no, you cant put skill points in strength. Strength is attribute, skill point is put into some skill your char has, not attributes like dex str con etc to boost your efficiency by "leveling". So no, with the system I described you dont get to the demigod point that I'm against.
     


    Take two:
    No I wouldnt play this, it's too simplified. A "levelless" system does not have to be uber simple like you describe here. I dont like levels because they make low level chars insects and high level chars gods, it's a bit retarted imo, the contrast is way too big, even without expansions. A levelless system that would have ability and skill progression just like a system with levels would be better, the biggest difference being base stats and HPs being fixed, and gear giving bonus to you but not so excessively like current level based games where uber items beat skill 6 to 0.
     
    You would have a game where you have progression, but skill would be more important than just gear / ability base of your char. Now you have stuff to pursue and collect while also be able to fight gankers with skill and be generally more "accessible" to content, pve, pvp, whatever. If some areas would need to be limited for/from new players, like it is done with "too high level for you" system in level based games, you could do it by quest prequisites, items, skills to get there and so on and so on, in levelless game. It would be really easy to remove levels but still have the ability/skill and gear progression, the difference between player efficiency just wouldnt be so annoyingly enormous and stupid like it is in level based games always :)
  • Justin83xJustin83x Member Posts: 406

    Originally posted by Kuinn

     






    Originally posted by Justin83x





    Originally posted by Kuinn






    Originally posted by Ragnaven



    a skill based game with leveling skills is still a level based game, the only leveless games I have ever seen are fps. Most rts's these days even add in levels of a type. So I doubt we will ever see a truely leveless mmo, but it may move away from the idea of character levels. Or it may be we see more hybrids that require you to level x number of skills x number of times to level like the elder scrolls games.






     

    Gaining a skill, skill point, or ability is not "leveling up" in my eyes. I guess it's a matter of an opinion what leveling is then, to me it is when a character simply just gets better in every way after a level up like it is done in just about every level based game, resulting the char to be uber powerful after a few dozen levels, usually becoming a demigod in the eyes of a low level char.

     

    If you just get skills and abilities your char does not get tougher or hit harder, the char simply is more skilled having more variety in his toolbox. No demigod complex here.






     Leveling up either through char level, or skill progression still creates stronger end game toons. So technically its still leveling up. They just go about it in different ways. If you have a toon thats maxed out his str stat say, and someone who just started the game 10 mins ago. The guy who worked all that time to max his str will pwn the new guy. Everyone keeps talking about how they want play skill based games. This is the only way I can think of where player skill would always be the only deciding factor in fights.





     I said "fixed base stats" so no, you cant put skill points in strength. Strength is attribute, skill point is put into some skill your char has, not attributes like dex str con etc to boost your efficiency by "leveling". So no, with the system I described you dont get to the demigod point that I'm against.

     





    Take two:

    No I wouldnt play this, it's too simplified. A "levelless" system does not have to be uber simple like you describe here. I dont like levels because they make low level chars insects and high level chars gods, it's a bit retarted imo, the contrast is way too big, even without expansions. A levelless system that would have ability and skill progression just like a system with levels would be better, the biggest difference being base stats and HPs being fixed, and gear giving bonus to you but not so excessively like current level based games where uber items beat skill 6 to 0.

     

    You would have a game where you have progression, but skill would be more important than just gear / ability base of your char. Now you have stuff to pursue and collect while also be able to fight gankers with skill and be generally more "accessible" to content, pve, pvp, whatever. If some areas would need to be limited for/from new players, like it is done with "too high level for you" system in level based games, you could do it by quest prequisites, items, skills to get there and so on and so on, in levelless game. It would be really easy to remove levels but still have the ability/skill and gear progression, the difference between player efficiency just wouldnt be so annoyingly enormous and stupid like it is in level based games always :)



     

     Oh I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. Your system would still create a stronger toon though. Not to the extreme that most game do now, but it still would. I'm talking about everyone being able to 100% fairly compete with anyone from day one. The only differences would be the players themselves skill at the game itself.

    image

  • MalcanisMalcanis Member UncommonPosts: 3,297

    Originally posted by ArChWind


    I think you misunderstand what the level-less means in what I believe  most want. A game without character levels means that the progression is based on different formulas.


     


    Some ideas of what would make the game more fun:


     


    A wide diverse skill set that can be fleshed out. Allow only a certain number of skills to be learned.


     


    Story and player driven events both in PvP and Pve.


     


    -PvE wise there are raids for random dropped rare crafting materials, armor and  weapons, and so on. PvP there is land control and rewards for picking factions.


     


    -Progression in the world itself in status and fame though actions.


     


    Player driven economy and player controlled world.


     


    This is a hybrid sandbox/theme park design.

     

    Sounds a lot like what I'm playing right now. So I guess the answer is "yes I would"

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • ErstokErstok Member Posts: 523

    Their is no such game that is completely level less. SWG Pre-NGE even without standard level 1 - 100 still had professions that went up levels in a sense. TKM 4.2.3.1. etc etc.

    You might not have a big flashing green, yellow, blue, purple bar in front of you. But you still level things such as skills and stats. Say if anything in games without standard leveling. Typically it feels as though their is even more grind such as Darkfail.

    But in reality it's the same kind of grinding you do in other games it's just not thrown in your face every 5 minutes "Congrats! You're level 2!".

    image
    When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?

  • KomarKomar Member UncommonPosts: 49

    As described, I dont think I would play.  I also am not so sure the described is 'balanced'.  Certain factors such as melee vs range, different types of armors, enviromental settings, utility skills and skill access dont seem to be taken into account.  I think that it would likely lead to a 'only 1 way to play' template that could not be offset by game changes since that would change the underling foundation of the game (e.g. it would change the OP's initial conditions).

    I also think that the concepts of 'player skill' and 'balance' are a bit misplaced by most of the mmorpg community.  RPG games are really suppose to be based on character skill and player descision making (which is where the player skill comes in). 

    This combines with the idea of game balance in that there must be differences so that player choices do make a difference and sometimes a combination/skill set/class is a better choice and sometimes it is not.  Everything cannot be the same and you cannot always be optimal.  Differences add flavor, drive players to think outside the box and enhance the game experience.  I think there should be more variation/character options.  Interestingly enough when one talks of that it is immediately countered with the concept of gimping, which one could say is a player skill issue...

    That said I do believe that most mmorpgs have gone overboard with the differences in lvl and gear is now a way to lvl a character without giving them a lvl leading to several game issues now days, not the least of which is PvP. However, removing character progression and variation from and rpg is not a good solution imo.

    I too am really interested in how Secret World is going to fair.

  • Justin83xJustin83x Member Posts: 406

    Originally posted by Komar

    As described, I dont think I would play.  I also am not so sure the described is 'balanced'.  Certain factors such as melee vs range, different types of armors, enviromental settings, utility skills and skill access dont seem to be taken into account.  I think that it would likely lead to a 'only 1 way to play' template that could not be offset by game changes since that would change the underling foundation of the game (e.g. it would change the OP's initial conditions).

    I also think that the concepts of 'player skill' and 'balance' are a bit misplaced by most of the mmorpg community.  RPG games are really suppose to be based on character skill and player descision making (which is where the player skill comes in). 

    This combines with the idea of game balance in that there must be differences so that player choices do make a difference and sometimes a combination/skill set/class is a better choice and sometimes it is not.  Everything cannot be the same and you cannot always be optimal.  Differences add flavor, drive players to think outside the box and enhance the game experience.  I think there should be more variation/character options.  Interestingly enough when one talks of that it is immediately countered with the concept of gimping, which one could say is a player skill issue...

    That said I do believe that most mmorpgs have gone overboard with the differences in lvl and gear is now a way to lvl a character without giving them a lvl leading to several game issues now days, not the least of which is PvP. However, removing character progression and variation from and rpg is not a good solution imo.

    I too am really interested in how Secret World is going to fair.

     You made good points about the ranged vs melee combat. Maybe they could add a block and dodge skill too. The block would work like a block in a action fighting game. The dodge could be like GW2 dodge they show, but you would get to choose the direction you jump and roll to. Both skills could be tied to a stamina skill that wears down as you use it.

    image

  • AmarantinAmarantin Member Posts: 14

    Uhm not sure if this has beentouched yet but...

    2 words...

     

     

    Ultima Online....

     

    I mean to say that this is the BEST example of a levelless  game  and imo will rarely be trumped in its mechanics design regrding progression if you want a further explanation i'll be happy to do so on request :p

    So...uh yeah...i guess that WAS the bomb trigger o.O hehe oops :$

  • Justin83xJustin83x Member Posts: 406

    Originally posted by Amarantin

    Uhm not sure if this has beentouched yet but...

    2 words...

     

     

    Ultima Online....

     

    I mean to say that this is the BEST example of a levelless  game  and imo will rarely be trumped in its mechanics design regrding progression if you want a further explanation i'll be happy to do so on request :p

     Yes please tell. I never got around to playing UO, so I have no clue how it's character progression works.

    image

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072

    Originally posted by Justin83x

     Oh I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. Your system would still create a stronger toon though. Not to the extreme that most game do now, but it still would. I'm talking about everyone being able to 100% fairly compete with anyone from day one. The only differences would be the players themselves skill at the game itself.

     

    Yes what I described would make stronger toon, but not much. It's for the sense of progression and I think it's good to have a player to be a bit stronger who's been playing for sometime compared to someone who just started, to make it worthwhile to collect all the different armor and weapons etc. My main problem is in the "traditional" system the ridicilous scale mostly. Fixed base HP, fixed base stats + ability, skill and slight gear progression on top of that = win. In my books at least :)

     

    100% "balanced" competition from day one would be good for competition, but competition only, the total lack of progression and meaningless gear would seriously bite off the longevity of the game I believe.

  • Justin83xJustin83x Member Posts: 406

    Originally posted by Kuinn

    Originally posted by Justin83x

     Oh I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. Your system would still create a stronger toon though. Not to the extreme that most game do now, but it still would. I'm talking about everyone being able to 100% fairly compete with anyone from day one. The only differences would be the players themselves skill at the game itself.

     

    Yes what I described would make stronger toon, but not much. It's for the sense of progression and I think it's good to have a player to be a bit stronger who's been playing for sometime compared to someone who just started, to make it worthwhile to collect all the different armor and weapons etc. My main problem is in the "traditional" system the ridicilous scale mostly. Fixed base HP, fixed base stats + ability, skill and slight gear progression on top of that = win. In my books at least :)

     

    100% "balanced" competition from day one would be good for competition, but competition only, the total lack of progression and meaningless gear would seriously bite off the longevity of the game I believe.

     Ok, so in my version you think the game would have a hard time keeping players because eventual player boredom? You also said from a competition stand point it would be a very good thing, and games that are competition based only like COD stays alive because of competition alone.

    So if you added a huge open world to explore, player made cities, guild forts, choice in skills by look, and type (melee, ranged magic). Also throw in some npc quests, and player made quests. Also crafting, pve, GvG, and some different races to choose from. All that I think the game would become a very strong and long lasting game. Sure it wouldn't be for everyone, but alot would like it if polished, and done right.

    I also said that you would have a progress level. It wouldn't make you stronger, but maybe unlock harder areas of the game or cooler craftables. You could have a pvp or world level too based on your total kills, and your kill death ratio. That could also unlock other armor types, or maybe really bad ass looking skills to use. The starter skills could be very dull and plain, and through game progress you could unlock cooler looking skills 

    image

  • Aison2Aison2 Member CommonPosts: 624
    Originally posted by Erstok

    Their is no such game that is completely level less. SWG Pre-NGE even without standard level 1 - 100 still had professions that went up levels in a sense. TKM 4.2.3.1. etc etc.You might not have a big flashing green, yellow, blue, purple bar in front of you. But you still level things such as skills and stats. Say if anything in games without standard leveling. Typically it feels as though their is even more grind such as Darkfail. But in reality it's the same kind of grinding you do in other games it's just not thrown in your face every 5 minutes "Congrats! You're level 2!".

     

    Would you call yourself leveling in zelda/ darksiders / devil may cry?
    You obviously raise abilities / unlock new ones like in a leveling game but the focus is not on grind but on acomplishing certain tasks (mostly find the treasure chest for new weapon) and you can easily progress without raising abilities, the progression doesnt make you always stronger but gives you more ways to crush your enemys

    personally i would like that kind of progression in a mmo

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495

    I am already playing games in the multiplayer genre that way.

    MMORPG's atleast to me should go beyond what other genre already offer.

  • AmarantinAmarantin Member Posts: 14

    Originally posted by Justin83x

    Originally posted by Amarantin

    Uhm not sure if this has beentouched yet but...

    2 words...

     

     

    Ultima Online....

     

    I mean to say that this is the BEST example of a levelless  game  and imo will rarely be trumped in its mechanics design regrding progression if you want a further explanation i'll be happy to do so on request :p

     Yes please tell. I never got around to playing UO, so I have no clue how it's character progression works.

    Quite simple reallyit is a level-less system that works purely on Stat and Skill progression Skills being not the "traditional" sense as we have come to know them from WoW and the like but more like abilities a person was capable of.

     

    These ran the gamut from simple fighting skills such as Swordsmanship and  fencing which would raise your damage capability with it's respective type of sword also Tactics  which increased Block Percentage...

    But alsocrafting skills  for instance woodcutting.. Smithing (armor/weaponcrafting) Fletchery, even cartography with which a person with sufficient skill could  create maps  of dungeons or parts of the world in certain detail.

    and the list truly goes on i'm talking over 100s of abilities one worthy of note as  well would  be Animal taming

    and it also had  a  total skillcap of  200 points so you had to pick and choose and rly try to find  out what you wanted your character to be etc.

    Also skillraising wasdone by using them and in conjunction also raised  your stats  such as  Strength Agility etc.

    For instance whenyou were attempting woodcutting to gain  logs  to craft furniture and  bows and the like you would  gain strength from swinging that axe around  all day, running boosted stamina and agility and so on

    And it's a Progression mechanic that,even though ihaven't played the game in years I still very  much  love about it because your options were virtually limitless

    So...uh yeah...i guess that WAS the bomb trigger o.O hehe oops :$

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