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  • Master10KMaster10K Member Posts: 3,065

    Wow this sounds a whole lot worse than my current experience LotRO, where outside Kin (Guild) chat, there really isn't much chatting going. But at least in the group instances of LotRO there's usually some talking going on, whilst waiting for everyone to get together.

    It's just a shame that this game has always been destined to fail, because it could have done a whole lot better as a Buy to Play game and would have sold a whole lot better on the PS3. Instead they foolishly went for the standard $15/£10 per month subs, for a game the average player can finish within the free trial and just cancel the sub.

    image

  • YamotaYamota Member UncommonPosts: 6,593

    Originally posted by therain93

     

    I don't believe that SOE has made back $50 million in box sales, sorry.  Even if we're generous and say that SOE sold 1 million boxes, they only get a small portion of revenue from retail sales (at least boxes, which is a good portion of PC and all of the ps3), not the entire $30-$40-$50-$60 that gets charged to the customer.

    Also, why are we rehashing parts of these conversations? We've gone over the litany of bad design decisions, bugs, and lack of content ad nauseum.  On the flip side, I do like the OP's question of why the press isn't talking about this more.  Where is Bill, since he was so gung-ho on the game?  Moved on to the next game already, too?

    Yeah I have asked that before as well. As mmorpg.com was so positive about this game, where are their articles now that the servers are barren?

  • SpytedSpyted Member Posts: 108

    Originally posted by Yamota

    Originally posted by therain93

     

    I don't believe that SOE has made back $50 million in box sales, sorry.  Even if we're generous and say that SOE sold 1 million boxes, they only get a small portion of revenue from retail sales (at least boxes, which is a good portion of PC and all of the ps3), not the entire $30-$40-$50-$60 that gets charged to the customer.

    Also, why are we rehashing parts of these conversations? We've gone over the litany of bad design decisions, bugs, and lack of content ad nauseum.  On the flip side, I do like the OP's question of why the press isn't talking about this more.  Where is Bill, since he was so gung-ho on the game?  Moved on to the next game already, too?

    Yeah I have asked that before as well. As mmorpg.com was so positive about this game, where are their articles now that the servers are barren?

     Simply a case of dammed if you do dammed if you don't, if an article arrived saying how much fun they were still having playing DCUO they the same few people would leap in and criticise the writer for being biassed or on the payroll. Indeed we have already seen such responses, not just here but also over on IGN when they admitted they were still playing, analyse this very post and the core is contradictory - why talk over old stuff, then why aren't the press talking over more old stuff etc.

    The internet, by its nature, is excessively contentious, people give less respect or consideration to others by virtue of the diminished responsibility and anonimity it brings - here we see some presumed 'success is suddenly equatable to quality', its facically stupid and invalid as any simple example can be offered to the contrary but backed by assumed nd made up facts it can sound incredibly persuasive....or can it ^^

  • Amphib_IanAmphib_Ian Member Posts: 170

    I was never interested in this game to begin with. Shocking really when you consider that i am a considerable fan of DC and comics and in general. What put me off was not that it is an SOE product but rather that i could tell early on from previews and beta that there was no way i could make the super powered individual that i wanted. Like a member of a latern corp for example. I dont want to be Captain Generic with ultra-gimicky ice powers or magic bullets. It is why i never got into champions with it's hyper customizable super power choices i was anything but unique and could not help but notice everyone picking powers based off how overpowered they were (like that shotgun or chainsaw) and to me it did not make sense to combine certain abilities so i felt more like fankenstein the hero, forced to purchase powers i did not want for ones farther down the tree that i did want, etc. at LEAST in CoH/V/R you could completely skip over powers in a tree if you did not want them even at the cost of not being able to completely mix and match between alllllllllll the archetypes.

    DCU just never stood a chance in my book and i am very thankful that i never spent a dime on it given how things have turned out in such a short amount of time. You would think after all these years of MMO's that more people would have a better sixth sense to tell them what is quality and what is mockery.

    image

  • TheFurTheFur Member Posts: 96

    Originally posted by Szasz

    I was never interested in this game to begin with. Shocking really when you consider that i am a considerable fan of DC and comics and in general. What put me off was not that it is an SOE product but rather that i could tell early on from previews and beta that there was no way i could make the super powered individual that i wanted. Like a member of a latern corp for example. I dont want to be Captain Generic with ultra-gimicky ice powers or magic bullets. It is why i never got into champions with it's hyper customizable super power choices i was anything but unique and could not help but notice everyone picking powers based off how overpowered they were (like that shotgun or chainsaw) and to me it did not make sense to combine certain abilities so i felt more like fankenstein the hero, forced to purchase powers i did not want for ones farther down the tree that i did want, etc. at LEAST in CoH/V/R you could completely skip over powers in a tree if you did not want them even at the cost of not being able to completely mix and match between alllllllllll the archetypes.

    DCU just never stood a chance in my book and i am very thankful that i never spent a dime on it given how things have turned out in such a short amount of time. You would think after all these years of MMO's that more people would have a better sixth sense to tell them what is quality and what is mockery.

    That is what disturbed me from the beginning. The lackluster CC and lack of key powersets was my first clue this was going to suck. What is sad is that all the forums for beta and here were telling them this wasn't going to fly, but SOE chose to listen to the few SOE fan bois instead.

    {mod edit}.

    image

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Former Managing EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 4,565

    I apologize in advance for the weird code and breaks... using a proxy at the dayjob. Heh.

    I actually am still playing. My League has died on Public Enemies, though so I started over on Zero Hour (Non-PVP) to try the Hero side of things. But yep, still playing it and still enjoying it as much as I always have.

    That said, even I recognize the game has problems. Hell, when I reviewed the title I called them out on the problems as I saw them then and there too. In a recent interview I did, same thing. I asked them about the pressing issues as I saw them. Go read that. But the fact is, yes I still enjoy DCUO and it's still my main game.

    I too find it sad that the populations have dropped on the PC: I'm anxious to see a merge honestly. But there's little doubt in my mind that the game now is in a better technical state than it was when the glitching really ramped up. I just wish there were more players to experience it. The exploits, more than anything else, I think really hurt them on the PC side. From what I understand the PS3 side is still doing quite well.

    As for "where are all the articles now?" We've got one (of a two parter) that's published today. That count? The ton of articles you saw prior to launch were part of our weekly columns that we're trying to do for most every major game in development. DCUO's stopped shortly after launch and we switched to Rift. Rift's launch was very close to DCUO and so they did not get as many weekly columns. But there's only so many of us here, and this isn't my only job to boot. Now that Rift's launched, we're doing The Secret World and since it's not releasing for a while, you're going to see a TON of TSW articles.

    These weekly columns are EDITORIALS as all columns are. And they're going to go one way or the other, especially after an NDA drops: either the writer likes the title and his writing will reflect that, or he doesn't and it'll reflect that. I happened to like, nay LOVE, DCUO and so that's what my columns read as. My honest opinion. That does not, and will never, mean I'm not going to write about the down side of any game. Just don't be surprised if I'm the type of player that can take in the bad aspects of a title and still enjoy it. I'm just not that cynical or downtrodden by nature. We really are damned if we do, and damned if we don't We try to bring you as much coverage as we can on the hot topics and upcoming games and their content. That's our one and only goal with the content here. Try to remember that.

    Lastly, I'm reviewing Rift. We've published several dozen Rift articles since the title was announced. I was there in San Fran and the unveiling. I love the game. It will very likely be scoring high marks with me when my official review is published next week. Will it lessen the fact that I truly enjoy DCUO as well? Nope. Someone can like and play more than one game. And it's my job to do the latter. Lately, I've been blessed to cover some fantastic titles. Of course, that's just my opinion that these games are great and entertaining... and that's really what this is all about right? It's just an opinion.

    /end rant. :)

    Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.

    My Review Manifesto
    Follow me on Twitter if you dare.

  • StraddenStradden Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696

    I'm just going to jump in here. I'm not going to launch into my standard defense of this site and the way thatw e do our jobs. I'm sure you can read it when we're attacked with the same lame accusations after the release of every single game ever.

    What I AM going to say is that the time I spent in DCUO was a blast. I really enjoyed the game. At no point did I, or any of the other folks writing for this site lie to you, or mislead you in any way. What you read was our OPINION. Reviews, I'm sorry to say, are opinion. We also can't look into the future. All we can do is review the game we ahve in front of us, and tell you how we feel about them then.

    I'm going to share a little secret with you: We do this job because we love games, we're predisposed to like the games that are coming out. Some of you may have soured on games, gaming, or MMOs in general. I can't speak for you. Neither can Bill. That's your issue and not ours. I honestly feel sorry for people who go out of their way to find the worst parts of everything, it's gotta be a rough way to live your life.

    Likewise, by the way, we slam games when we don't like them cause even to people who genuinely loves games and the genre, sometimes, they just suck.

    We're professionals guys. I'm sorry if you don't like that, and you can call us bloggers, or hacks, or whatever it is that you want, but the bottom line is that we're in these jobs for a reason, and that's to provide our insights and the insights thata re given to us by attending gaming events all over the world and speaking with developers not just about their games, but about the industry as a whole, and through reading not only this site, but many others to gain that perspective as well. There's more to it than that, but that's the bare bones of it all. So, in the end, enjoy our opinions, or don't. hell, i don't care if your entire reason for reading the site is to say: I disagree with everything that Jon Wood guys says about games, so I'm going to do the opposite fo everything he says. That's fine and it's just as valuable as someone who likes what I have to say.

    It's up to you when you read reviews or previews or any other form of opinion article and decide for yourselves if the person in question is someone you agree with or you don't. I'm sorry, but that's just a fact. It's how reviewing of entertainment media has been done since it started, and if your English teachers didn't take the time to teach you that in school, then maybe you'll want to write a letter to your congressman or something, but that doesn't change it.

    Come on folks, we can only offer you our own opinions and the information that is presented to us. Make up your own minds and think for yourself.

    Cheers,
    Jon Wood
    Managing Editor
    MMORPG.com

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Why are you getting panned so hard for your articles on the game?  Look at your review score and pros/cons for example of why people might disagree with your articles.

    Score: 8  GREAT

    Pros


     

    image Deep character customization

    image Excellent storylines & content

    image Exceptional physics-based combat

    image Feats as alternate advancement

    image Superb presentation of the DC Universe

    Cons

     

    image Lack of information on powers & skills

    image Many annoying little bugs

    image Stunted Social & League UI

    image Terrible chat interface

     

    Do you still think that list of cons is reprentative of DCU's problems?  Does that feel like calling out the developer on the games problems?  I recall several times where your enthusiasm for the game allowed you to dismiss problems as quickly as you brought them up as if they were trivial.  Several times citing that they wouldn't be problems, because the developers promised to address them.  It is almost as if you wanted to write about how the game could be instead of how the game actually was. 

    It only took a few short weeks for the game population to show just how drastically they disagreed with your view of the game being an 8/10 GREAT score.

     

    I don't think anyone is saying you were less than honest when you say you enjoy the game.  I think the criticism stems from that being the driving force behind what and how you reported on the game.  

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Former Managing EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 4,565

    Daffid,

    What you're missing is that it's my job to give my opinion. That's what I do here. I honestly don't sit at home as I write articles and say, "Gee, I wonder if this will be okay with my readers". Because honestly, that's not part of it for me. That's what Jon gets paid to do.

    I don't claim to understand why I somehow get the luxury of writing games, and by all means you're entitled to your own opinion of my opinion. That's the beauty of free thought. What's more worrying to me, though is why a review being one's opinion is so hard to understand.

    I stand by that review, even today with its languishing population, because to me DCUO is still a great game. What is there is fantastic (again to ME) and I'm eager every new update to see what's added.

    EDIT: As for the "population drops show how people disagree with your opinion", all that really proves is that I (and anyone else who likes the game) am in the minority. There are plenty of folks still playing DCUO, though not nearly as many as there were at launch. I can see that as well as anyone. But those that still play it (myself included), still love the game. Just because others don't, does that mean I should change my opinion and say it sucks? I loved Auto Assault too, but we see how that went. I can't help that what I like isn't what everyone else does. Do you understand what I'm saying?

    And yes, I think those Cons are representative of DCUO's problems. I'd throw in sparse population, but that wasn't an issue at the time. In a year, we'll revisit it most likely, as we do many games. It may be done by me, and it may be done by Jon, Drew, or anyone that's working here. But for now, deal with the 8/10.

    As I stated elsewhere, I hare "scores" on reviews. But by and large that's (obviously) what the public pays attention to so we have to include them. But from now on, think of them like a grade scale. As a reviewer, I try my best to mesh the fun of a title's systems with the technical grace at which it performs. 7 is a C, 8 is a B, and 9+ is an A. Below 7 is dangerous ground, and for me DCUO is a solid B game. Were it not marred by the issues I've stated time and again, it would have gotten even higher.

    So in summary, yes the 8/10 stands, and will stand until we re-review the title. So get on with it.

    Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.

    My Review Manifesto
    Follow me on Twitter if you dare.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Jon/Stradden,

    Is the problem really that people work hard to find problems in great games or the genre has been flooded with terrible incomplete games the last half a decade and players are sick of it?  Even hinting that players are the problem is being disingenious and a bit irritating.

    That being said, you are right that your opinions are just that, opinions.  As are the responses to your articles.  Tit for tat?

    However, it is hard not to notice just how drastic the difference is between mmorp.com rating/coverage of the game and how poorly the game has performed in the last 2 months.  I think this is the first time I've ever seen multiple staffers here come together to talk about how awesome a game was.  Then watching how poorly that game has been recieved by so many players it really brings to question how so many problems in the game could be overlooked that it garnered an 8/10 GREAT! reveiw? 

    I don't think anyone is expecting next weeks lotto numbers, but to miss by such a huge mark is.... well I just don't know how to phrase it. 

  • erictlewiserictlewis Member UncommonPosts: 3,021

    Originally posted by BillMurphy

    I apologize in advance for the weird code and breaks... using a proxy at the dayjob. Heh.

    I actually am still playing. My League has died on Public Enemies, though so I started over on Zero Hour (Non-PVP) to try the Hero side of things. But yep, still playing it and still enjoying it as much as I always have.

    That said, even I recognize the game has problems. Hell, when I reviewed the title I called them out on the problems as I saw them then and there too. In a recent interview I did, same thing. I asked them about the pressing issues as I saw them. Go read that. But the fact is, yes I still enjoy DCUO and it's still my main game.

     Well thats All I asked and you stepped up to the plate and said hey you still enjoy the game. So I have to give you kudo's to actually admitting that, and stuck your head into the hornest nest this thread has become.

    I have to say I gave up in beta and never went back.  Now I keep reading all this stuff about how low the population is now.  I have to really wonder if it is or what.   I don't have acess to the boards as you need an active acount to post over there now.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 11,587

    Daffi,  you have to take into consideration that, at the time of the review,  its very likely that these were the only problems being experienced at the time.  Launch went fairly well,  but with each subsequent patch things did decline rather rapidly.

     

    Honestly though my feeling is that, the population currently isn't indicative of how much fun a game is.  I had more fun in DCUO than I've had in most MMOs I've played in the past few years.  The game did its job very well,  it entertained me, and it did so far greater than the cost I spent to play it.   In the end,  I stopped simply because I couldn't be called an exploiter on one hand, and then get beaten by exploiters on the other.  It turned into a volatile spiral,  and I believe that is one of the main reasons on why the community dwindled.  

     

    My (beta) review was very similar to this one... and though they rated it just a notch higher in comparison to what I would have,  I stand firm that DCUO is a GREAT GAME.  Not everyone has to like it,  but that doesnt' mean that we shouldn't like it either because others don't.  I wouldn't ask the writers to score the game based on others opinions. 



  • kefkahkefkah Member Posts: 832

    What mystified me was all the "DCUO is great talk" everywhere on the web and little to no coverage of just how well RIFT was doing - from its packed Betas to its launch. I am no RIFT fanboi (I did buy the game but am not resubbing) but it was so far the superior to DCUO that I thought it needed more of the lime light.  Especially back at that moment in time.

    Now that the smoke has cleared, DCUO overlooked flaws (YES they were in beta - reported in beta and were still present in launch) have all but crippled the game - suddenly, RIFT gets some attention. And saying DCUO has flaws, poor coding, was rushed and seems to be being mishandled is now nigh on acceptable.

    I understand that DC is a big name and a big draw. Batman is more recognizable that arguably any person alive in the US and the mythos comes with a huge fanbase. That was the game's only strength. Certainly not the half shod system, console to pc UI mess nor the its borked PvP holes.  The artwork and the big names make for wonderful articles and site skins to be sure. Hell, at that point it seemed to be a race to cover the game more than the competition. But the site readers and mmo fans were waiting at the other end of the tunnel. Did the reviews influence thier purchase? Did it reflect what they would be concerned about or enjoy? Were they warned enough about the myraid of issues that seemd to be left on the cutting room floor?

    So what is the lesson in all of this? I think the industry should stop paying so much attention to the big sister with no personality and share some of it with the one that has some redeeming qualities. And that sometimes saying the emperor has no cloths can help in a way that is worth all the pain that comes about from saying it.

  • SpatterCatSpatterCat Member UncommonPosts: 80

    It really comes down to a sense of having beaten the game. People are fully geared in T2, they've beaten all the raids, and now they can sit back and wait for the new content without having to log in. Mostly what I'm seeing now is people logging on to raid, and then logging off after. The progression to 30 is too fast, and the grind for gear in two or three raids becomes pretty repetitive. I love the game, I love my character(s), but there's little reason to log on anymore.

  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,605

    Originally posted by jinxxed0

    Originally posted by Jakdstripper

    hum, maybe because everyone wants to BE the super hero and not fight alongside one?....

    personaly Batman was my fav super hero when i was young, but i'v never wanted to fight ALONGSIDE Batman i'v always wanted to BE batman.

    unfortunately you cant make an mmo where everyone can be batman, or spider man, or superman, otherwise it gets super lame very quick. the whole point of being a super hero is that you are unique and better then everyone else, otherwise you'r just one other wanna be hero. on top of that the game just doesnt seem all that interesting or mature.

    I'll never understand this.

     

    How can so many people want to be a character someone else created. Watching super heroes, i've always wanted to be my own kind of hero with my own powers. Maybe because there weren't enough heroes that I could relate to, what with 99.9% of all super heroes being middle aged white males. But still, why do so many people want to be batman or superman instead of creating their own super hero. Are comic book fans really not that creative?

    Same here.  If I wanted to be Batman I'd play Arkham Asylum.  When I play a superhero game I want to build everything about them from scratch, like I did in the days of Champions PnP.

    DCUO didn't really provide that opportunity; it allowed even less than CoX and CO, which gave you more costume options than you could possibly care about, but didn't give much in the way of custom powers.

    Slap onto that very limited content, and almost nonexistent non-combat content, and you've got a game that can't hold subs.

    Honestly though, I think they intended this game to be F2P from the beginning.  They just wanted to use the DC IP to make some money off of boxes, first.

  • OptiqueMarquisOptiqueMarquis Member UncommonPosts: 860

    here is the most comprehensive compilation of DCUO issues and insights on them in the web:

     

    http://www.mmofringe.com/forum/37-dc-universe-online/3971-dcuo-bugs-cheats-and-pvp-hacks

     

     

    only chris cao and smedley would remain convinced that this game is worth playing after going through that material. 

  • TUX426TUX426 Member Posts: 1,907

    @Bill,

    Could some of the disconnect be because some reviewers are reviewing DCUO on it's gameplay vs. its MMO features? I don't mean to imply you are, I'm simply looking for a way to explain the gap in review scores vs. retained players/subs. DCUO sounds like an honest 8-9 for "gameplay"...but it's not selling itself as an "Action game", it sells itself as an MMO. Could the heavy action focus of this game be one of the key reasons it isn't doing well on the MMO market?

    Just Cause 2 is a fun game, GREAT game actually...but the story BLOWS! If someone were looking for a story based game, I'd never suggest Just Cause 2 to them because the story, voice acting, script are atrocious...but holy crap is it FUN to play. Is that possibly the case here?  Could DCUO's lack of traditional MMO features be one of the key factors to this seemingly huge discrepancy in review numbers vs retained MMO gamers? I'm just trying to understand why a new MMO with an 8+ review can't retain more players.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Daffi,  you have to take into consideration that, at the time of the review,  its very likely that these were the only problems being experienced at the time.  Launch went fairly well,  but with each subsequent patch things did decline rather rapidly.

     

    Honestly though my feeling is that, the population currently isn't indicative of how much fun a game is.  I had more fun in DCUO than I've had in most MMOs I've played in the past few years.  The game did its job very well,  it entertained me, and it did so far greater than the cost I spent to play it.   In the end,  I stopped simply because I couldn't be called an exploiter on one hand, and then get beaten by exploiters on the other.  It turned into a volatile spiral,  and I believe that is one of the main reasons on why the community dwindled.  

     

    My (beta) review was very similar to this one... and though they rated it just a notch higher in comparison to what I would have,  I stand firm that DCUO is a GREAT GAME.  Not everyone has to like it,  but that doesnt' mean that we shouldn't like it either because others don't.  I wouldn't ask the writers to score the game based on others opinions. 

    What was not being discussed in beta/pre-release that is going on now?  The problems have not changed, they just got more widespread or patches made already existing problems a little worse.  It isn't like these problems are new revelations that were easy to miss. 

    How great can a game be if you and almost everyone else has already quit?    This isn't some single player console game that people play for 25 hours and then trade in for the next new release.  It is an mmo built on one of the largest, oldest and most diverse properties in... well almost anything that could be made into a game.

    The game is crippled by poor designs, bad programming and premature almost everything, but somehow that is what qualifies as "great"?  That is doing its job well?

     

    I don't want to speak for everyone, but I don't think it is a stretch to assume that most people reading a reveiw that scores a 8 out of 10 will expect to find a well polished game that has pretty damn solid gameplay.  I don't think they assume the writer(s) enjoyment of a few things outweights all the other problems in the game or that 30 days and out is GREAT! gameplay. 

     

  • OptiqueMarquisOptiqueMarquis Member UncommonPosts: 860

    Originally posted by TUX426

    @Bill,

    Could some of the disconnect be because some reviewers are reviewing DCUO on it's gameplay vs. its MMO features? I don't mean to imply you are, I'm simply looking for a way to explain the gap in review scores vs. retained players/subs. DCUO sounds like an honest 8-9 for "gameplay"...but it's not selling itself as an "Action game", it sells itself as an MMO. Could the heavy action focus of this game be one of the key reasons it isn't doing well on the MMO market?

    Just Cause 2 is a fun game, GREAT game actually...but the story BLOWS! If someone were looking for a story based game, I'd never suggest Just Cause 2 to them because the story, voice acting, script are atrocious...but holy crap is it FUN to play. Is that possibly the case here?  Could DCUO's lack of traditional MMO features be one of the key factors to this seemingly huge discrepancy in review numbers vs retained MMO gamers? I'm just trying to understand why a new MMO with an 8+ review can't retain more players.

    there seems to be a widespread perception that shallow, action packed MMOs are what people want. 

     

    and they ARE fun for a couple of hours: its new and fresh. 

     

    And THAT is when the reviewers write their review. 

     

    But then you play for more than a couple of hours and you find that:

     

    1. There is no immersion

    2. It is shallow

    3. Its broken

    4. Fancy particle effects do not make combat interesting nor do they hide combat issues

    5. There isnt enough content

    6. Customer support is bad and promises are not honored.

    7. There are exploits, bugs and hacks everywhere.

    8. There is no meaning to the in-game eperience and content becomes repeatable and boring.

     

     

    Now look at that list and tell me how many of those issues are normally found on reviews? 

     

    What you normally find on reviews is:

    1. Character creation

    2. User interface

    3.  Graphics

    4. Animations

    5. Bias notes on the authors experience whilst he waits for his laundry to be ready

    6. Levelling and Progression system.

    7. Classes and so on...

     

     

    Now note that none of the above points are of consequence to determine a users choice to buy and subscribe to a game.

     

    All they are is the point of the iceberg which is all that can be written when playing for a couple of hours under an excited influence of having a new toy and not making any research before writing.

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Former Managing EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 4,565

    @Daffid: Ultimately, I see your complaints as valid, being that yours and my own opinion don't jive. Because we disagree, does not make your point any less valid. But what you're basically asking us at MMORPG.com to do is change a review because you don't agree with it, and because you think there's enough evidence that others feel the same way. The review of DCUO is one person's opinion of the game: my own.

    I still play, several times a week even, so for me the game's a solid 8. I would have rated it higher, as stated, if the issues I had with the game were addressed.

    Again, I think you're reaching too far into what our site's review is or means. It's just the reviewer's opinion. I also just re-reviewed AION after months of play. I gave it an 8. Both are vastly different games that got a similar score for vastly different reasons. I gave Vindictus an 8 as well, based on what it is and how well it performs what it tries to do. Are you seeing a pattern? All of these games to me ARE great games. I enjoy them all for very different reasons, and quantify that in each review. Just because you feel that my review is wrong, does not invalidate it.

    I mean, really, what are you asking of us?

    @TUX: You may be right, actually. From a gameplay perspective DCUO is at least an 8. And that's largely what I review all games on. But I also never expected DCUO to have features that weren't advertised. I expected a casual-friendly action-MMO and that's what I got.

    Now if I were to stack its features up against, say Rift, which has some of EVERYTHING in the MMO pot minus housing and does most all of it well then Rift would obviously trounce DCUO. The thing is, I have to rate each game subjectively. DCUO I always knew to be an action-MMORPG with the focus squarely on its combat and monthly content. As it was advertised, at the time of the review, I felt it deserved the grade it received from me. That said, if it hasn't added not just content, but features, when we re-review it... then I would expect my own rating to drop. I'd say then to SOE: "What have you been doing during the past 12-18 months?" But I sincerely expect that NOT to be the case. We shall see.

    This is what I face with every review. MMORPG, and maybe more "MMO" means so much more than just one type of game anymore. They encompass so many different styles and genres. FPS and RTS are coming into the fold more and more. And you can bet that some of those games will be lacking in features compared to traditional MMOs like Rift. See what I'm getting at?

    I won't review a game based on what features it's missing. That's like giving a hatch-back a bad review for not having a traditional trunk. Instead I have to review a game based on what it does have and how well it presents that content. DCUO, as always this is my opinion, deserved the 8 I gave it. Because that's my feeling on the subject.

    Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.

    My Review Manifesto
    Follow me on Twitter if you dare.

  • SpandexDroidSpandexDroid Member Posts: 277

    Beta tested and didn't buy the game. The Massive word from this game should be removed. Period.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751

    Originally posted by Stradden

    I'm just going to jump in here. I'm not going to launch into my standard defense of this site and the way thatw e do our jobs. I'm sure you can read it when we're attacked with the same lame accusations after the release of every single game ever.

    What I AM going to say is that the time I spent in DCUO was a blast. I really enjoyed the game. At no point did I, or any of the other folks writing for this site lie to you, or mislead you in any way. What you read was our OPINION. Reviews, I'm sorry to say, are opinion. We also can't look into the future. All we can do is review the game we ahve in front of us, and tell you how we feel about them then.

    I'm going to share a little secret with you: We do this job because we love games, we're predisposed to like the games that are coming out. Some of you may have soured on games, gaming, or MMOs in general. I can't speak for you. Neither can Bill. That's your issue and not ours. I honestly feel sorry for people who go out of their way to find the worst parts of everything, it's gotta be a rough way to live your life.

    Likewise, by the way, we slam games when we don't like them cause even to people who genuinely loves games and the genre, sometimes, they just suck.

    We're professionals guys. I'm sorry if you don't like that, and you can call us bloggers, or hacks, or whatever it is that you want, but the bottom line is that we're in these jobs for a reason, and that's to provide our insights and the insights thata re given to us by attending gaming events all over the world and speaking with developers not just about their games, but about the industry as a whole, and through reading not only this site, but many others to gain that perspective as well. There's more to it than that, but that's the bare bones of it all. So, in the end, enjoy our opinions, or don't. hell, i don't care if your entire reason for reading the site is to say: I disagree with everything that Jon Wood guys says about games, so I'm going to do the opposite fo everything he says. That's fine and it's just as valuable as someone who likes what I have to say.

    It's up to you when you read reviews or previews or any other form of opinion article and decide for yourselves if the person in question is someone you agree with or you don't. I'm sorry, but that's just a fact. It's how reviewing of entertainment media has been done since it started, and if your English teachers didn't take the time to teach you that in school, then maybe you'll want to write a letter to your congressman or something, but that doesn't change it.

    Come on folks, we can only offer you our own opinions and the information that is presented to us. Make up your own minds and think for yourself.

    That's cool, couldn't you perhaps use previous experience and judgement to make an educated guess as to what is going to happen? Funnily enough given SOE's track record and given the bugs mentioned in beta many people could see that there was a great potential for the game to tank and the imminent need for server merges. I wonder why some of your staff couldn't.

     

    I personally couldn't give two shits about 'evil' SOE or what happened to swg, frankly I thought it was massively overrated, but even I looked on with a sense of 'hmm this might not go so well'. I'm no industry insider and I don't have a crystal ball, I find putting two and two together works a treat sometimes and I highly recommend you try it.

     

    If Star Vault ever release a new mmo (god forbid) and they promise the earth, are you telling me that a beta review would take them at their word that all bugs will be fixed and everything will be 'hunky dory' without taking into account their track record at all?

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • RyukanRyukan Member UncommonPosts: 720

    This just goes to show that MMO's should not be reviewed at all until after the first month at least. Played this game on a buddy key and it got old after a week of moderate playing. Never did I feel this game warranted a 8 out of 10...felt more like 6/10.

  • SpandexDroidSpandexDroid Member Posts: 277

    Originally posted by Ryukan

    This just goes to show that MMO's should not be reviewed at all until after the first month at least. Played this game on a buddy key and it got old after a week of moderate playing. Never did I feel this game warranted a 8 out of 10...felt more like 6/10.

    THIS!!

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Former Managing EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 4,565

     

     


    Originally posted by Ryukan

    This just goes to show that MMO's should not be reviewed at all until after the first month at least. Played this game on a buddy key and it got old after a week of moderate playing. Never did I feel this game warranted a 8 out of 10...felt more like 6/10.

     

     

    It was reviewed after the first month, and I still gave it an 8. I'd still give it an 8 now. Why? Again, because reviews are opinion.

    I smell a column cooking...

    I have to leave my day job now, but I really want to stress that I've enjoyed this conversation today. I mean that wholeheartedly. I'm trying my best to convey to those who don't understand WHY I gave DCUO a B rating. But what it boils down to is purely opinion. I'll be writing up my own "Review Process/Manifesto/Yakkity-yak for this week's column. I hope that it will be enough for me to point to in the future on how I review games, and why they get the scores they do. I can't promise it'll make you agree with me, but maybe it'll help you understand my vantage point.

    Cheers!

    Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.

    My Review Manifesto
    Follow me on Twitter if you dare.

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