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The Secret World: The Classy Classless System
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
Now that more information is out about Funcom's The Secret World, there is much more to talk about. In The Secret World Weekly #2, MMORPG.com Lead Writer Bill Murphy takes a look at one of the features that Funcom is touting as truly ground-breaking: The Classless System. Check out Bill's thoughts and then weigh in with your ideas.
Classless systems are something that many MMO veterans clamor for as each new game launches and maintains the same old tried and true system. The promise freedom to raise one’s character however you like, without regard for some pigeonholed roles or class-bound restrictions. In theory a classless system will allow players to match and blend different traditional skills like healing, melee fighting, stealth, and the like. Basically, you can be whatever you want to be without having to rigidly force yourself into a predetermined class. It’s the promised land of character development and with 500 skills at launch Funcom’s The Secret World is looking to do what no one’s done since the Asheron’s Call days.
Read more of Bill Murphy's The Secret World Weekly #2: The Classy Classless System.
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Comments
keeping an eye on this one. it's sounds very interesting.
in, before the illuminati file this info away for themselves and keep it from the rest of us. :P
Giving this one a try. Kinda new. I like that
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Asheron's Call was by far the best game I've every played for character development, online anyway. Its nice to see somebody moving back towards this direction. Because frankly its a load better than having some game company telling me what type of character I have to have. Thankfully not another fighter (tank), wizard (dps) and priest (heals) game. So good for them and I hope it works. And maybe some of the online gamers who missed the days of AC will get a chance to see there is a better way to play!
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An end to the whole class/level thing is something I've been dreaming of for years!
I'm actually more excited for this game than I am for SWTOR. Too bad it isn't releasing yet :P
Just because a game has a good idea dosent mean its good. FFXIV is a terrible game with some good ideas.
Remember Old School Ultima Online
i like the game concept as well.but classless system 7 active and 7 passive slot for skills kinna worries me.have to test the game before i will pay for it due to the skill system.but other then that the rest of the features sound cool
This game is sounding very promising so far. A build your own class system has alot of appeal to me as a design concept. Of course, as with everything else...devil is in the details of implimentation.... but what I've heard about the design concepts so far sound great.
AC was one of few games that implemented this best way and it was awesome back then on Darktide.
I hope they also manage like in AC but the arch types im not so sure about will see if it all works fine.
Hope 500 skills wont be skills with many almost same then please reduce numbers becouse we dont need needless annoying and frustrating gameplay.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
this game has sounded interesting for a while, but a classless system "ground breaking"? Classless systems have been around for atleast 10 years. Don't call your game "ground breaking" unless it has something new to bring to the table.
Champions Online, DCUO also have classless skill based systems. You can mix and match powers. They both went through some issues with balance, but the teams are working on it.
One remedy would be to split the effects of powers so that they can be balanced separately for PVP and PVE.
Replayability is not measured by the need for a player to restart a character in order to experience different powers. It is measured by there being a variety of content through the various levels that a player will WANT to experience, because there was only so much they could do the first time. Secondly, if content is instanced and scales to the player level then they can go through quest lines that they missed regardless of their character 'level'. I hope they use the Openworld/Instanced mix from City of Heroes or DDO which would allow players to select difficulty levels and play content from all areas of the game regardless of their character level.
I don't buy into the whole classless system. From my expereince even skill based systems still produce a need for some one who can soak up damage, some who can heal the damage, and the ever popular just high damage. It doesn't really matter to me which way a game goes as long as it is fun to play.
IMO the only way to get past the holy trinity is to make it so that the players only have the choices of damage, control, and strategy. If the mob rarely hits you, isn't that the same as them hitting you and getting healed by a healer, just without the healing part? It would make it seem more real or at least more like the action packed movies and cinematics.
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And here I thought AC only had 3 classes.... archer, tank-mage, heal-mage....
Basically all I saw when I played.
And UO.... where you could macro your way up... sigh... I've never seen a "classes" system have anything other than classes. Same thing with "levels".... you end up with levels, regardless of whether the game has levels.
Balance and Archtypes.... if there is no balance, then there will be a *very* small number of archtypes, which would be these things we like to call "classes"...
I like alot of the things they've talked about with this game, but with all the mmo's that are on the horizon, I'm not sure if it will win out over some of the big titles that are coming. I mean, if it was just a decision between SWTOR and TSW, then TSW would win hands down, but there are some really noteworthy mmo's that are soon going to be on our doorstep.
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One thing to be noted about "archetypes". If you recall, even UO had this option. You chose "necromancer" and it automatically assigned you the skills commonly expected for a necromancer to have (which you could then adjust if you'd like). That doesn't make it a class, just a suggestion within the game for people who have trouble thinking beyond a "class".
Invariably, there will always be the people who just build a "tank" character, or a healer, etc. The whole point of a skill-based system is not to prevent this, but to not force people to do it if they don't want to. In my opinion, these systems give players more of a chance to either group or solo without being stuck in some outdated and limited concept of who they are.
And 99% of them will fail in a western market, unfortunately
Eve and Fallen Earth are both "classless". In my opinion Eve pulls it off because the of the shear number of skills and combinations available to characters. Fallen Earth failed at this because the limited number of skills basically just lumped characters into a small set of classes anyway. To build a decent classless system you need a large set of skills and some way to limit the effects of those skills so players only benefit from a subset of those skills at any one time. This allows players to use multiple play styles but forces them to chose an active style. After all we don't want characters hurling 8d10 fireballs while critically healing their teammate to full health.
Balance is and always will be a perception in MMOs. There is too much that is fluid and changing in them. One person cries foul and whines about imbalance, when in reality it is that person's lack of skill that causes this "perceived" imbalance. It'll be no different in this game. There will be builds that are combat focused. There will be builds that focus on support and the like. I simply don't believe any game has true balance...and really in the end who cares? If you suck at combat because you chose all the support skills or the crafting skills, then whose fault is that but yours? And in a skills based game where you can be what you want, I hope they do it on a usage basis. You get better at a skill by use. Then it's easy enough to let one skill atrophy and let another start building up. If they do it on a points system, then they should have a way to reset and respend your points, but with no levels, how would you earn these points? They may have already mentioned how they plan to do this and I haven't seen it.
Still the system isn't for everyone. Some people like their nice neat little package where they don't have to think too much and the system is holding their hand. That's cool. There are games for that and to each their own. Some folks don't have the time to put the thought into it to be successful in a skills based game. Again, nothing wrong with that. If it's not your cup of tea, then it's not.
As to the last commentor of 99% failing in a western market, not sure which ones you are referring to, but many of the noteworthy games will do quite well. GW2 will likely have a huge success. I expect TOR will to, even though I see it at a clone of every other MMO with story added on. So in other words not for me, but likely many will love it. And I do like bioware, so perhaps they will get a month of my money. Secret World..if they make a good game it'll be successful. If they don't, if they screw up like in other ventures they won't. Maybe Funcom is due..I don't know. This game looks interesting and I love skills/classless systems. GW2 I think will end up being my first love though. Only time will tell. I'm pretty sure I'll at least try this game.
They both "pull it off" and "fail" in the exact same way - you end up with a core set of skills that defines you as a 'class' in both games. The rest of the skills are for crafting (because both games are heavy crafting games).
We don't know if Secret World will have an in-depth crafting system yet...but, with that many skills I hope they do!
The thing that SW does that neither Eve nor FE do is allow you to change your usable skill set for different situations. So, you no longer have to be defined by a core set of skills. Maybe you're 'good with guns' so sometimes you have a two-handed shooting skill and other times you use a sniper rifle skill. That's closer to two classes than one. In FE, you can't be both.
The trick to a system like this is to allow enough points in character development so that a player can have 2 or 3 'types' that he can utilize without making a jack of all trades too powerful. You want to promote a certain amount of specialization but at the same time leave some flexibility.
Balance shouldn't be an issue. Ideally, your core set (7 skills usable at a time) should be advantageous in some situations and total crap in others. You choose wrong and find yourself in a bad situation and you are useless. But, choose right and find yourself in the ideal situation and you can kick butt. This type of flexibility can never be 'balanced' - that would take away the advantage of choosing the right skill set. I hope they don't cave to player pressure for 'balance'. I find 'balance' is highly overrated.
500 skills sounds more like a problem and less like a feature to me.
Naw... the HT is a bit like shoe-laces. It's one approach to achieving a particular end that some-one struck upon long ago...and since it does work fairly well...everyone and thier brother copied it... but it's hardly the only way to keep a pair of shoes on your feet.
Look at something like WWII-Online for example of a different approach to breaking up combat.
There is a million different ways to slice up combat roles & specialization. For example you could have characters that are great at facing a specific TYPE(s) of threat but suck at others. For example a warrior that was extremely good at physical threats (both offensively & defensively) but has no ability to deal with anything magical. Different ways of dealing with particular threats (ranged vs melee), etc.
Then you have aspects of combat that most MMO's don't bother modeling. Things like recon and intel. The biggest role of the Rogue in traditional PnP DnD was NOT that of back-stabber or crowd control. It was SCOUTING....a Rogue could go out and spot threats before the party ran into them without being spotted...so the party good setup a good plan for approacing. They could also get the party past obstacles that they wouldn't otherwise be able to...giving them more options as to how to tackle a dungeon.
Then there is the potential for things that aren't directly combat related. A character that specializes in social skills that can allow a party to talk it's way past a particular encounter to get a reward, that might otherwise have been very difficult to fight through....or that can get them extra support from NPC's, equipment that they can use for a mission. A character with detective skills that can find the clues that a party needs to advance in a mission...or an easier path to advance then bruting it's way through. You could have characters with orienteering/survival skills that are neccesary for a party to even find/get to a particular area.
I don't know to what degree, if any, Secret World would support any of the above.... but once you start thinking outside the traditional HT box... there are a ton of different ways to slice up an individual characters role within an adventuring party.