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Role Play and MMORPGs

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  • biofellisbiofellis Member UncommonPosts: 511

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,028

    RP and MMO’s are a bad fit, it is more a case of doing well in spite of everything rather than because of the mediums suitability to roleplaying.


    You can find roleplaying in guilds, but MMO’s are now swamped with players who think a MMO is a game you play for one to two months then move on. We are a tiny minority and far down on the pecking order.


     


    So stick to a good guild, don’t get depressed about the behaviour of players outside of RP guilds and you will be fine.

  • KentKarmaKentKarma Member Posts: 3

    There has been a really great RP community in a rather unknown MMO known as Graal Online.

    It looks like Zelda from the Super NES but thats because the original version of Graal was like Zelda Online.

     

    Anyway, theres a server on it called Valikorlia which caters to a more chat based RP with little else to do sadly but, if RP is the focus Valikorlia is where it is at.

    Imagination is pretty much endless since 90% of the content on Graal is user-made, the only catch is there is a 1 time subscription,  which allows you to get into the premium servers but once it expires you can still use the Classic Servers which Valikorlia resides on.

    My only complaint is that it hasn't drawn many players in a while but there have been upwards of 100 people playing in a realitively small space. Recently theres usually 30 people playing at once, which again sounds small but the world isn't that big to begin with so in comparison is not bad.

     

    Try the free trial, which will let you play Valikorlia and see if you like it. Its like a Chatroom RP with a lot of graphics basically.

  • SuilebhainSuilebhain Member UncommonPosts: 57

    Originally posted by Dagrik

    The moment a company "forces" rp on a server, no one will want to play.  And it would be almost impossible to do correctly. 

    ---end quote

    I agree with everything you said except this. This is the thing that the anti-roleplay alarmists use when camping the forums of games in development to dissuade new companies from entertaining the idea of a RP-enforced server. The main things roleplayers hope for in such a server is name enforcement and the ability to call upon aid if they are harrassed for being roleplayers or by someone just being overly offensive.

    No one expects a company to say, "No no, you are using Drow language and you are a High Elf" or any such nonsense, but when the anti-roleplayers come onto a forum and start spouting off about how they will be expected to say Thee and Hail instead of You and Hey and how they won't pay if that is the case, the companies listen, and they waffle, because there are far more people in their camp than there are in ours.

    However, most of them are content to fritter their time away on games like WoW, and after the first month of a new game, will go back for the continued grind and their level 79 Deathknight. The rest of us go from game to game like RP-gypsies, looking for a place to call home.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,028

    Do I get to put on a thick pseudo Rommany accent if I am a RP gypsy? :)

    But I think you are right, we want to RP in the top rated MMO's with the best graphics and so on, we wander around never finding a strong enough RP community to anchor in.

  • GTwanderGTwander Member UncommonPosts: 6,035

    Heh, I designed a whole class system around RP--style play, here;

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/257121/Classes-based-on-what-you-do.html

    It's really long, so no, I don't expect anyone to read it - but the jist of it is that the game is a medieval sandbox where players start out a blank-slate class that can do anything, then can evolve to specific roles that are not only a class, but a mini-faction that relies on each other, and negotiaties with other class-factions often. Each one has a "job" to do, based on what you would expect out of the class;

    Knights/Mercs - Mostly Combat

    Thieves/Assassins - Stealth gameplay involving theft or murder

    Priest/Deceiver - Social classes that do a wide range of things from buffs to grantable quests.

    Tradesman/Lord - Business owners and land owners, respectively

    Paladin/Inquisitor - Policiers that handle PKers and player-crimes through investigation.

    WickerWitch/BoneEater - PK classes that are strong 1v1 but have a particular set of weaknesses.

    Hunter/Warden - Exploration classes that will have you trek the wildneress, or city-scapes respectively.

    Mendicant/Shaman - Healer classes that also deal in hollistics.

     

    Each class has a particular set of advantages, as well as rules that are enforced via code. The role it creates is *enforced* through mechanics, so even if you don't roleplay, you'll be dragged into the role of a real person - with real taboos. For instance;

    Paladsins and PK classes are diametrically opposed. Some of the Paladin 'taboos' are that you have to automatically tithe all funds coming in, wear a crest of your home nation at all times(which notifies other players), and you must bathe often to keep debuffs off of you from the filth the accumulates on your model through actions like combat and being out in the woods for extended periods of times. On the other hand, the WW's cannot bathe at all, and when they approach a water source such as a lake, they are unable to submerge. This allows a particular escape route by swimming under the surface, and away from them.

    Every class has a particular set of these "lifestyle rules" in play, and players still have the choice to remain classless - though it will cut out the specific kind of content that being in a class-faction would bring. These 'taboos' are a wide range of mechanical stipulations to your character's personality, and while many are free to pick from, some are class-specific. Each has a rule that the player must abide by, and that comes with a benefit. So the Paladin's personal taboo on bathing gives a combat ability that shrugs off magic effects if they stand still. Most taboos that are made for the general public to choose from are more on a lower level; like being a "shrewd trader" which gives 5% more income for trades to NPCs at -10% reputation gain from doing thier missions.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • DKWFirstbornDKWFirstborn Member Posts: 32

    When you read all that is bellow don't shoot me!

     

    Piece of altarernative history

     Infact  In my opinnion there was 2  major reason why other games adopted the idea of roleplay. First and largest is P&P.

    As time had advanced and people grown keeping intact p&p groups became much harder art-form. I suppose it was price of internet revolution. Online Gaming became more and more common form of spending time with friends. Yet it also killed many of the P&P sessions. Playing at home on computer with friends with friendly competition. Roleplay/gaming serssions were without dependancy on friends being online, you could prag and show-off your power... Of the days... I personally still play P&P despite i play MMORPGs. i prefer roleplaying on both.

    Second reason was: Underdog such as myself started rp career with Neverwinter Nights. Servers were rather small containing around 40-80 people at max. But roleplay was enforced art-form. Despite it was enforced the rp was better than anything i seen in any game.  When wow came out NWN was still doing strong, but as all good things come to an end eventually people started leaving for wow RP servers. Many came back many didin't. Eventually the game shrunk and the epixxness died. When news of NWN 2 came out I was absolutely thrilled till Obsidian ruined the game for me and everybody whom had waited for amazing multiplayer options like first game. Eitherway no idea bitching about it.

     

    What comes to Roleplay in mmorpgs? 

    In warhammer it works, in warbands, scenarios and all related to destroying others. Never use "lol" and never break a role, when people whine how they get owned and how lame other side is. Speak of valor and strenght, encourage and support.  Remember to praise people when they do well, when they mess up explain why things went wrong.(plus it helps when leading warband you get more cannon fodder for being charismatic) In warhammer online you just need lots off cannon fodder on both sides, especially if your one of the "monsters of the field" it's allways good to feel epic while grinding enemies to dust of the past... Erm *coughs*  My thoughts strayed.. Sorry.

     

    In Wow i had 120 people (not 120 chars but 120 people, too much in meh taste) Roleplay/raid guild. It worked with lower level instances and most raids and such.  However on most tactical endgame instances and raids we used vent so it kinda killed the RP. Also rp felt like enforced act after big tiresome fights and such, plus most people had problems of rping in raid and staying alive.

     

    In terms of the rping in peacefull places, didin't really work for lack of replacables/things outside of invidual rp, dumass clothes, bad emoticons, barrens people. *coughs*

    On the so called "roleplay hubs" there was wee bit too much of the "I am vampiredemonspawn of satan" people kinda ruins it for me. The amount of meta rp, bad roleplay and emo elfs runing around.. God i hate emo belfs and nelfs!!! Oh and let's not forget the godemoters!  But at times some great inviduals made it worthwhile most of the times i met good roleplayers. Despite Wow is very limited and dull experience I had great RP moments with great people.

     

    After all this jiberish.... I would say roleplaying works well if it occurs in large scale or on certain shalow scale that most non rpers can respect aswell. But as mentioned before it seems that many off great Rpers have split to dozen games.

    Kindest regards,

    DKW

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,028

    We are a wind borne tribe indeed, carried on the breeze from one MMO to the next. As a majority when there was less than a handful of MMO’s we did fine, as a minority spread across more severs than I can count we barely keep going. I have seen attempts to reunite the RP community, which have had some success, but long term the proportion of non rpers on the server goes up and you are back to square one.


     


    Outside of mainstream MMO’s some rpers still keep the flag flying in the likes of UO and MUD’s but getting new blood into them is hard. They are a refuge for old timers fed up with the RP desert new MMO’s have on offer. Having said all that the European RP servers Laurelin in Lotro and Hykernia (?) in AoC are not bad. But the glory days are gone, we have to make the best of a bad situation.

  • DKWFirstbornDKWFirstborn Member Posts: 32

    Originally posted by Scot


    We are a wind borne tribe indeed, carried on the breeze from one MMO to the next. As a majority when there was less than a handful of MMO’s we did fine, as a minority spread across more severs than I can count we barely keep going. I have seen attempts to reunite the RP community, which have had some success, but long term the proportion of non rpers on the server goes up and you are back to square one.


     


    Outside of mainstream MMO’s some rpers still keep the flag flying in the likes of UO and MUD’s but getting new blood into them is hard. They are a refuge for old timers fed up with the RP desert new MMO’s have on offer. Having said all that the European RP servers Laurelin in Lotro and Hykernia (?) in AoC are not bad. But the glory days are gone, we have to make the best of a bad situation.

     

    Fully agreed! but not all hope is gone for we are strong! I have gotten several people to RP because I art soo cool!

    Kindest regards,

    DKW

  • sfly2000sfly2000 Member Posts: 168

    Originally posted by Token1337Guy

    Do you think it will ever actually work well?

    I personally don't.

     Guess you didn't play on the online multiplayer worlds in Neverwinter Nights 1 then....

  • HluillHluill Member UncommonPosts: 161

    I agree that MMOs center around the game first and the story second.  How many players actually read the quest dialogue?  And how many times have we read it only to be dissappointed?

    I also agree that there is a maturity issue.  I am having major issues with character names.  I guess it's too hard to screen them all...

    But the point I would like to make is that it is also an issue of how the mechanics are presented.  What is actually happening when my character levels, or respawns?  Why is that sword or item or piece of armor better than this one?

    In old EQ, I played with people that RPed all that, but we still had to make stuff up to fill in.  And it's hard for me not to think about trying to get better gear or that next level, even though my character has no sense of it, or need for it.

    Gear-centric-ness seems to be a necessity for a successfull MMO, as do levels and attributes and other values.  I still can't help but imagine how much better a game may be if we, as players, were unaware of a lot of these numbers -- if we had to experience the game world more like our characters.  I think a more immersive world would create a better role-playing enviroment.

    But then, as  the OP states, it probably wouldn't make any money.

    TSW, LotRO, EQ2, SWTOR, GW2, V:SoH, Neverwinter, ArchAge, EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO, BDO, SotA, B&S, ESO, 

  • wisesquirrelwisesquirrel Member UncommonPosts: 282

    The problem is the way current MMOGs implement RP, the msot a game has done for the sake of RP is give massive amounts on paragraphs that give the player the game's lore through quests.

    This has fallen to the "gamer-MMO" culture, where players use acronyms and slang based on the game's mechanics, a raid isn't the pillaging of a town, it is a commonly known term which refers to an instance where up to 40 players fight against a bunch of mobs until they find the boss which ahs a lot of HP and attack (Then they assign tanks, DPS and healers), they are just empty instances which give players gear (Or stat boosts), now there is also n00b, newb etc.

     

    The commercial MMOs do not intend or are trying to implement or support RP with empty systems like the AH, the guild system (You just get grouped in chat with other players and you are a "guild"), the static quests etc. They don't create an interactive breathign world where players can interact change or do anything, they just give them a system which they figure out and use as a playground of repetitive tasks, this pretty much removes the term RPG, no roleplay.

     

    Now if a game were released which tried to implement RP in its system then the "gamer culture" can be beaten to a bloody pulp and let the community be enlightened how fun RP can be if done right in the game.

    An example of a good implementation:

    Imagine a scene in the middle of a city with a few players tradinf or whatnot, the NPCs start making a cinematic scene of sorts, the city ruler starts makign a speech out loud which can be ehard by those nearby and is suddenly killed by an assassin from behind and starts running away, the players are surprised something like this happens and chase this assassin to try and capture him or help him escape (If they were already assigned the task to aid him), the world will be different and the following events as well depending on the outcome of the assassin's escape, a cinematic scene acted out by NPCs removes this static playground and can give choices, consequences and a fluid story to the players, they can expirience lore firsthand.

    If a player per chance missed the scene, this scene could be recorded and be left up for view in a lobby for everyone to watch and follow the lore and history instead of ignoring empty static text.

     

    I will be so happy if someone actually read this (The theory and idea may be impractical with todays technology and current studios and developers, but it is possible with newcoming technology and fresh blood entering the gaming industry).

  • GTwanderGTwander Member UncommonPosts: 6,035

    Originally posted by wisesquirrel

    I will be so happy if someone actually read this (The theory and idea may be impractical with todays technology and current studios and developers, but it is possible with newcoming technology and fresh blood entering the gaming industry).

    I read it, but if you read up a few posts you will see me explaining the concept behind an RPMMO I've been storming up for a couple years now. Lots to read, even without clicking the link, so lemme just state that the taboos and lifestyles that you would choose to RP on your own *can* be tied to class structure, as well as just having free reign over choosing some of these options without a class to route you into a specific role to play.

    As for your 'dynamic one-time world changing events', I consider it an exclusive mechanic that most people will miss out on personally, and being able to rehash the event without the actually change occuring defeats the purpose and makes it into just normal static events. Something that changes the entire game, or even a small section of it, should never be something that is done at a precise moment, but rather should be a collective effort over a decent amount of time. One person changing the world is BAD in online games, trust me on that. There is only fame for that one person to gain, while the rest of the playerbase suffers from that decision. I never understood the draw of Archlord because of this, I'm just not into unobtainable goals, nor spending every waking minute trying to prove something to the entire server about how badass I am... that's just me though, but in most cases, people will get sick of never even having the chance to prove it.

    It also has nothing to do with roleplaying in the first place, it's just an event with opposing angles for players to take sides on. Sure you can roleplay a hero or villain, but just about as far as you can in any other game today that does the same thing without permanent changes made. I wouldn't even consider the interactions between both sides of the conflict roleplay unless they decided to remain in-character, and that has nothing to do with the goals at all.

    Now if a GM was making a speech in-character, and a player was able to assassinate him and flee, then sparking confusion and chase, then you would have something more akin to RPing, and it was done in UO with Lord Britain already. Point is, players have to be involved to RP, unless quest takers accepted text queries in-character that is.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • wisesquirrelwisesquirrel Member UncommonPosts: 282

    Read it, interesting concept giving the players roles in a "quest cycle" society, sounds foolproof, then again nothing is.

    Not a big fan of the PK classes, but I see they are attached to the lore so I see why this would be a chance to have PKers act as monsters or smart mobs ;p.

     

    The system I mentioned previously might not work too well for major events, but it could be effective as minor events among the world (A giant troll NPC attacks the outskirts of a village, NPCs run rampant around the area pleading for help or requesting someone help them kill it before it does any further damage or manages to reach the actual village).

    A few players could join forces and attempt to kill the troll (Raising reputation they have among the local area with little reward)

    A major event could also cater for a quest to be taken by a guild of players (Having them investigate, interrogate, looking for clues and fixing the problem or conflict in the area), these jobs could give the guild leader a handsome reward for him to distribute among his fellow guildies. If they failed the job, an interesting change could be amde to the area. Maybe it is taken over by a mercenary/bandit group which starts robbing nearby players and cuts all trade and quests there making it a useless area until another city tries to capture it.

  • GTwanderGTwander Member UncommonPosts: 6,035

    Originally posted by wisesquirrel

    The system I mentioned previously might not work too well for major events, but it could be effective as minor events among the world (A giant troll NPC attacks the outskirts of a village, NPCs run rampant around the area pleading for help or requesting someone help them kill it before it does any further damage or manages to reach the actual village).

    A few players could join forces and attempt to kill the troll (Raising reputation they have among the local area with little reward)

    A major event could also cater for a quest to be taken by a guild of players (Having them investigate, interrogate, looking for clues and fixing the problem or conflict in the area), these jobs could give the guild leader a handsome reward for him to distribute among his fellow guildies. If they failed the job, an interesting change could be amde to the area. Maybe it is taken over by a mercenary/bandit group which starts robbing nearby players and cuts all trade and quests there making it a useless area until another city tries to capture it.

    Hmmm yes, I think that the handing down of jobs and the sharing of collaborate quests from person to person is the most important aspect of a true RP-MMO. The less you rely on NPCs, and the more you emphsize dealing with other players in a way, is just about the only way to truly have any kind of roleplaying aspects. That is, until NPCs are made to accept text dialog made by players - such as keywords "yes", "no" and preposition phrases like "what/where/etc" along with the object "rufus the dog handler". That would be amazing imo, and then you can tie that in with all NPCs with text dialog on a string of variants, like whether they are predisposed to even know of the character, or even likely to tell you about it. I was working with something similar in the linked concept, but not with text entry. I dunno if it's worth updating to attempt this kind of thing, but it seems like a milestone that would take more time to produce and correct than the content itself.

    *I remember a lot of text-entry games in the 80's, and maybe MUDs had similar things, but nobody has really bothered to evolve that genre since the coming of 3d gaming. I respect Vanillaware for making the most awesome 2d games of any age as well, that's an example of how far that genre has come, and how much further it could still go. Sucks that the backing behind those kinds of games have died out though, much like text driven ones.*

    As for investigation aspects, I am glad you embrace it like that. What games are missing is the "leadup" to lore, the searching for it and asking around about it. The stalking and hunting of an object with little to no information, though any player can just tell you where he it is - unless it moves from time to time. I've been putting a lot of investigative social aspects and puzzle play in my later concepts, they are both things that need to work their way into the genre.

    Now as for something any game can do, it would be job assignments through guild structure that allows rankings to be based on deeds (both the individuals, and the guilds amongst others). Face of Mankind was an inspiring game to play as a wannabe designer, the faction roles and economy based on the missions you accept did a lot to influence the concept I covered earlier. What it does is allow players to pick a role they want (policier, military, production, etc) and align to a faction that does that, then that faction has politics with others and works on it's own economy that rations a payout every once in a while to those that were active. Granted the things to do were very limited, other games can take note of the very aspect of assigning jobs to guildies, charting it, and rewarding it. Good stuff.

    I also figured an interesting activity in a game would be to track and monitor wildlife. Say you're doing that quest to find an ogre and report on it - as you follow it from a safe distance you could witness it script through various events like eating berries from a shrub, targetting certain wildlife and attacking, and generally cycling some self-grooming emotes - and all the while it's entering lore per action into a logbook. Telling you things about it that you just witnessed and wrapping more context around it. From the outside it could be seen as you having a boring time standing around, waiting for something, but there is a good chance that the 'little things' involved could wrap up the user into the experience itself. It's all about making the player buy into why he is doing something after all.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • wisesquirrelwisesquirrel Member UncommonPosts: 282

    The text input is a good idea, but I figure it would have the same effect on me if I were just given multiple dialogue options like they do in "Mass Effect", I'd say about a few geenral choices that may branch into the NPC specific ones. Getting to know your target and trying to bring up a subject or egt information out of them, they may give in to intimidation or you could confuse them to spill the beans.

    I also played Face of Mankind, good concept but nothing to do (Major events), the only major event I had was when we were looking for aliens, we went out into the field and I was like "are these aliens even real?, did someone make it up?", I was walking confused in the darkness until I found a scouting group, after I crossed a river I found myself in some sort of fortress with the rest of the army (I joined the army faction).

    I went to the top and was ona  boring stakeout looking into the darkness, no one I asked knew if the aliens even existed, then suddenly I hear someone say "Our scouting party has been attacked, we're haeading back to base", I was like....D: ....Then the aliens suddenly attack the ground floor, I go take a peek and find these "hallucinations" (Inside joke of the game), I head abck to the roof and these aliens start climbing up the walls, a huge version of one snuck up on me and almost killed me from behind (A few guys in front of me shot it).

    A magical moment of paranoia, the battle was getting bad as we were running out of ammo, until the sun came up XD. Those who still had ammo went to hunt the aliens at their base, since I was out I headed back to base, halfway to the portal back I was ambushed by an alien and died.

     

    I liked that logbook idea, perhaps the players have a journal which automatically fills with information (With player's consent) which players may choose to organize or get rid of, the more information they have, the more things they can figure out, allowed to do or they could be a condition for a quest to collect information like you said.

    When your out doing small quests ina village for a long time, you eventually gather clues and gain trust of the village folk until you find out about a journal page of some ancient document that was lost in the lake (Each page could be in different places and each have a riddle which could only be logically sovled once all the pages are read together).

    Finding cool missions while doingnnothing in the widlerness is also a bonus, or going into a forbidden zone with a group of friends and getting killed one by one (The last one might find some sort of legendary item and make it back safely out of sheer luck and keep it for himself).

  • DohnovahnDohnovahn Member Posts: 25

    RP like you guys said is all about the players not the game itself, it can be as simple as giving your character his own personality and acting it out, or you and your friends and go into backstory or involve yourselves in the lore of the game. 

    The Paladin

  • AtaakaAtaaka Member UncommonPosts: 212

    A hardcore gamer came across a pub in a small village. He opened the door and a huge bisquit smacked him in the head. He checked for blood, began laughing and said, " Ahhh! Another roleplayer." -Ataaka

  • eburneburn Member Posts: 740

    I don't think good RP comes from 1s and 0s. Just as good table top role play doesn't come from dice rolls or stats on paper.

    All MMOs give you what you need for good role playing, a box to stand on and people to listen.

    How we work that, is what makes or breaks role-play.

    There have been attempts at just providing a space for role-players and well; look at Furcadia and imvu.

    I do think a little community support from a company could go a long way.

    One of my favorite times role-playing in a mmoRPg (oddly) was during a little bit of a lull in EQ expansions. Velious was getting tired and all of the massive content coming was being touted but nowhere to be seen so a group of GMs started holding events randomly out in the world where ever players gathered. My crazy half elf got offered a plat to baby set 2 baby ogres while their Mama went into Freeport to shop. The tunnel was full of sellers at the time and well I think I was level 26 with just 2 giant snake fangs as daggers. Needless to say me and a few dozen people had a  blast keeping these little guys from playing with gryphons to going into Kith. I didn't get paid cuz well, I didn't exactly finish the task at hand occordingly. LoL But it's a great memory.

    I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.

  • TerranahTerranah Member UncommonPosts: 3,575

    I think SWG had great RP.  I roleplayed from launch till NGE and had a great time doing it.  It's like taking a vacation from yourself and everything that is going on in real life.  I haven't really rp'd in mmo's since though. 

     

    With SWG, there weren't a lot of quests to do, so you came up with things to do yourself or with your friends.  And since it wasn't really story driven, you were free to make your own story.  I think quite a few people rp'd in SWG.  It's one of the aspects of that game I miss the most.

  • DohnovahnDohnovahn Member Posts: 25

          Sometimes thats the only way you see role-play anymore is in a game with very few goals you have create a world for you and your friends to play in man those were the days.

    The Paladin

  • LilithooLilithoo Member Posts: 11

    i think they can work together

    lol NEVER VENTURE OUT ALONE

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