2. Like it or not part of the remit of mmorpgs is character progression, which necessitates either a shit load of content (which personally as a pvper I see as a grind anyway), or more frequently some form of mob grind.
I think the more pertinent question is, if people really hate 'the grind' that much, why play player character progression based mmos?
name one OTHER than Second Life, that has no grind (char progression), yet has a virtual world. and its obvious to most people why most people don't play SL.
What?
Are you asking me to name an mmorpg (other than SL which isn't a 'game' per say) which doesn't have a grind? If that's the case it's an odd question given the fact that I am saying they traditionally involved character progression, which in turn involves a 'grind' be it level, mob, quest, item or renown et al.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Endgame in every popular MMOG is still all about character progression. Its just 100 times slower than the leveling up part and has much less story content, forced grouping, and more challenge. Using WoW as an example, you'd essentially just be trading your gear-score for your level.
"Grind" is such a subjective word that trying to talk about it is almost completely pointless. One man's grind is another man's content and vice versa.
Well, kindof even though I am not sure "gearing up" is a true character progression as learning new skills or leveling up.
Not all games have the gear focus, GW don't and GW2 wont have either. But it tends to replace one grind with another kind.
And yes, exactly what is grind depends on who you talk to. Doing the same thing over and over is the most common thing I heard at least but many PvP players think of all PvE play they have to do as grind. And they are right, if you only want to PvP you should be able to du just that.
2. Like it or not part of the remit of mmorpgs is character progression, which necessitates either a shit load of content (which personally as a pvper I see as a grind anyway), or more frequently some form of mob grind.
I think the more pertinent question is, if people really hate 'the grind' that much, why play player character progression based mmos?
name one OTHER than Second Life, that has no grind (char progression), yet has a virtual world. and its obvious to most people why most people don't play SL.
What?
Are you asking me to name an mmorpg (other than SL which isn't a 'game' per say) which doesn't have a gind? If that's the case it's an odd question given the fact that I am saying they traditionally involved character progression, which in turn involves a 'gind' be it level, mob, quest, item or renown et al.
my answer to your question (look at original quote) is that they play them because there is no alternative. its possible to like the virtual world concept enough that you will involve yourself in them even when they are based on "gameplay" that you hate. because there has been no alternatives.
i agree that char progression intrinsically creates grind. can't have it without having some level of grind (and yes, its NOT grind to people that love those kinds of repetitive activities, no point in bringing that up).
i hate char progression, and yet i dabble in it until some alternatives exist.
my answer to your question (look at original quote) is that they play them because there is no alternative. its possible to like the virtual world concept enough that you will involve yourself in them even when they are based on "gameplay" that you hate. because there has been no alternatives.
i agree that char progression is intrinsically intertwined with grind.
i hate it, and yet i dabble in it until some alternatives exist.
Ah I see. Well the closest I think the medium will come to a non or (at least lesser) progression/grind based virtual world will be with mmofps games, potentially with the often mooted future Bungie title. That said it will be interesting to see just how 'permanent' the virtual world would be in such a game.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
my answer to your question (look at original quote) is that they play them because there is no alternative. its possible to like the virtual world concept enough that you will involve yourself in them even when they are based on "gameplay" that you hate. because there has been no alternatives.
i agree that char progression is intrinsically intertwined with grind.
i hate it, and yet i dabble in it until some alternatives exist.
Ah I see. Well the closest I think the medium will come to a non or (at least lesser) progression/grind based virtual world will be with mmofps games, potentially with the often mooted future Bungie title. That said it will be interesting to see just how 'permanent' the virtual world would be in such a game.
just to be clear (i edited my post, but not before you quoted it), i'm not saying you can't have grind without char progression. you could always make any game have a grind of a sort.
i was just saying for people like me you CAN'T have char progression without grind. char progression causes grind.
but you could still have grind in ANY poorly designed game.
i'm interested to see how the Bungie MMOFPS turns out. so far no company has been brave enough to leave vertical char progression behind, and i doubt they will either. especially with them advertising for a job position they call "Player Investment Designer. http://www.bungie.net/inside/aboutus.aspx#25100
notice this scary quote;
" Can you find the fine line between a reward that encourages players to have fun and an incentive that enslaves them? "
I don't get why people love to grind, to me it's just a timesink.
Isn't the truth that grinders a have lack of playerskills so they have to compensate with characterskills instead?
Of course gamecompanies get lots of time to fix errors, make patches and plan expansions while their faithfull moneymakers are grinding their asses off.... in comparison to reaching the endgame fast and getting tons of complaints about lack of content.
...is there any other reason? Why do you love the grind?
Welcome to the new MMO age. Grind is Kind...... :P
I don't get why people love to grind, to me it's just a timesink.
Some people find menial and repetitive tasks relaxing/therapeutic/enjoyable. It is also a fact that lower IQ is linked with acceptance of menial jobs. People with higher intelligence tend to get bored with such work - at least in the RL environment. However, it depends also on socio-economic background.
Isn't the truth that grinders a have lack of playerskills so they have to compensate with characterskills instead?
Might be in some cases, but grinding with a group and chatting on vent might be more enjoyable. Grind does not mean exclusion from social aspects of a game or that it is tied to a perceived natural ability or skill.
Of course gamecompanies get lots of time to fix errors, make patches and plan expansions while their faithfull moneymakers are grinding their asses off.... in comparison to reaching the endgame fast and getting tons of complaints about lack of content.
...is there any other reason? Why do you love the grind?
I do not like to grind. I also think that Anarchy Online, EQ and Lineage 2 type of grinds would not be acceptable for most modern players. Most developers are currently trying to hide the grind behind quests or repeatable instances that have a possibility of phat loot as a carrot. Others give alternative levelling paths through crafting and PvP.
I also believe that once SW:TOR hits the market, it will give huge pressure for other MMO developers to hide their grind even better and improve on how quests/missions are represented. Quests/Missions/Tasks need to feel meaninful tied to larger events and lore. I think they are going towards right direction there.
I am still looking for a game that manages to create dynamic content in a manner that does not feel like a grind, but holds meaning with reasonable risks and rewards on both player and group/guild level.
Essentially, I see that grinds exist for three reasons:
1. Lack of meaningful content, artificially trying to prolong the journey by reducing rewards to make the ho
2. Poorly designed content, the path of least resistance, for example best hour/xp ratio
3. Lack of variety at the end, where content updates are infrequent, trying to prolong content either with rare drops or collection of badges etc.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
What is the point of FPS games? To shoot and frag. What is the point off MMO games? To lvl up or skill up... Whats the point of life? sometimes I havent figured that one out yet.
The point of grinding is to add a timesink to reach your personal goal. The longer that timesink is, the longer you "may" stay subscribed. That was the philosophy behind EQ when it was created.
Today people want more instant gratification, so you are rewarded more often and the grind has become less.
The grind has shifted focus away from levels and xp towards gear progression instead because the level carrot isn't as interesting to gamers as new gear. This is why popular themeparks are fast to level in.
So the point of a grind?. To get you to play and pay longer.
Comments
What?
Are you asking me to name an mmorpg (other than SL which isn't a 'game' per say) which doesn't have a grind? If that's the case it's an odd question given the fact that I am saying they traditionally involved character progression, which in turn involves a 'grind' be it level, mob, quest, item or renown et al.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Well, kindof even though I am not sure "gearing up" is a true character progression as learning new skills or leveling up.
Not all games have the gear focus, GW don't and GW2 wont have either. But it tends to replace one grind with another kind.
And yes, exactly what is grind depends on who you talk to. Doing the same thing over and over is the most common thing I heard at least but many PvP players think of all PvE play they have to do as grind. And they are right, if you only want to PvP you should be able to du just that.
my answer to your question (look at original quote) is that they play them because there is no alternative. its possible to like the virtual world concept enough that you will involve yourself in them even when they are based on "gameplay" that you hate. because there has been no alternatives.
i agree that char progression intrinsically creates grind. can't have it without having some level of grind (and yes, its NOT grind to people that love those kinds of repetitive activities, no point in bringing that up).
i hate char progression, and yet i dabble in it until some alternatives exist.
---------------------------
Corpus Callosum
---------------------------
Ah I see. Well the closest I think the medium will come to a non or (at least lesser) progression/grind based virtual world will be with mmofps games, potentially with the often mooted future Bungie title. That said it will be interesting to see just how 'permanent' the virtual world would be in such a game.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
kill time
just to be clear (i edited my post, but not before you quoted it), i'm not saying you can't have grind without char progression. you could always make any game have a grind of a sort.
i was just saying for people like me you CAN'T have char progression without grind. char progression causes grind.
but you could still have grind in ANY poorly designed game.
i'm interested to see how the Bungie MMOFPS turns out. so far no company has been brave enough to leave vertical char progression behind, and i doubt they will either. especially with them advertising for a job position they call "Player Investment Designer. http://www.bungie.net/inside/aboutus.aspx#25100
notice this scary quote;
" Can you find the fine line between a reward that encourages players to have fun and an incentive that enslaves them? "
ROFLMAO
---------------------------
Corpus Callosum
---------------------------
Welcome to the new MMO age. Grind is Kind...... :P
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
What is the point of FPS games? To shoot and frag. What is the point off MMO games? To lvl up or skill up... Whats the point of life? sometimes I havent figured that one out yet.
The point of grinding is to add a timesink to reach your personal goal. The longer that timesink is, the longer you "may" stay subscribed. That was the philosophy behind EQ when it was created.
Today people want more instant gratification, so you are rewarded more often and the grind has become less.
The grind has shifted focus away from levels and xp towards gear progression instead because the level carrot isn't as interesting to gamers as new gear. This is why popular themeparks are fast to level in.
So the point of a grind?. To get you to play and pay longer.