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Henrick explains this weekend's fiasco!

Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,226

Summary: Lack of communication was the fault of a volunteer mod and the game issues are the fault of Epic Games.  Who ever would have seen that one coming?

 

 




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Henrik Nystrom's Avatar


 


Join Date: Apr 2008


Posts: 565


 




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The thing was that on Friday when we noticed the issue I explained in my "late" announcement" was a misunderstanding between me and a mod. I asked it to be posted without being clear I guess, after I noticed it wasn’t posted yet I did so asap.



We did not take a break during the weekend, we rarely do.

The thing is that we have a bought license for the network solution. some core part of that is not for us to touch nor develop in. We develop only game features.



The issue we have right now is a mem leak in the front end, which is in Epic Games hands only, we contacted them as soon as we got the log for it, and they said they would look at it when they get back to work. Not much for us to do there but being somewhat angry and trying to make our own solutions. Now we did get a code update from Epic games today, which we are deploying like we said we would asap. We can only hope they managed to fix the mem leak. It is as frustrating for us as for you when we cant do anything about it, but to wait for their response. What’s sad is that this mem leak was not here in our previous build. We are doing our best, working very hard each day to solve what we can, and I can only push Epic that much to get the updates we can, they have other deadlines and things to follow as well. It's the result of being an independent company with limited resources, and we are sorry for it and really tries to solve it on our own which is not always easy. We didnt get the memory leak untill Friday, we guessed it arrived along with another crash fix we got from Epic just the days before, which solved the crash but didnt clear the memory. We worked very hard during this weekend to try to reach Epic and get a solution, so its not the case that we simply left on friday and didnt care about the situation, pretty much the opposit. I do seem to need someone monitoring the forums a bit more as I thought it was under control when we discussed it on Friday, again sorry for that missunderstanding in the delayed announcement.



Thank you-


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Comments

  • HerculesSASHerculesSAS Member Posts: 1,272

    Yea, he says they work all weekend, but responds to a massive thread on Monday. Sure they worked all weekend... LOL

    I am amazed that people still believe this used car salesman, but hey... maybe he's telling the truth, because you know, his record of statements are usually so true...

  • Lazerus666Lazerus666 Member Posts: 59

    "The thing was that on Friday when we noticed the issue I explained in my "late" announcement" was a misunderstanding between me and a mod. I asked it to be posted without being clear I guess, after I noticed it wasn’t posted yet I did so asap.



    We did not take a break during the weekend, we rarely do.

    The thing is that we have a bought license for the network solution. some core part of that is not for us to touch nor develop in. We develop only game features.



    The issue we have right now is a mem leak in the front end, which is in Epic Games hands only, we contacted them as soon as we got the log for it, and they said they would look at it when they get back to work. Not much for us to do there but being somewhat angry and trying to make our own solutions. Now we did get a code update from Epic games today, which we are deploying like we said we would asap. We can only hope they managed to fix the mem leak. It is as frustrating for us as for you when we cant do anything about it, but to wait for their response. What’s sad is that this mem leak was not here in our previous build. We are doing our best, working very hard each day to solve what we can, and I can only push Epic that much to get the updates we can, they have other deadlines and things to follow as well. It's the result of being an independent company with limited resources, and we are sorry for it and really tries to solve it on our own which is not always easy. We didnt get the memory leak untill Friday, we guessed it arrived along with another crash fix we got from Epic just the days before, which solved the crash but didnt clear the memory. We worked very hard during this weekend to try to reach Epic and get a solution, so its not the case that we simply left on friday and didnt care about the situation, pretty much the opposit. I do seem to need someone monitoring the forums a bit more as I thought it was under control when we discussed it on Friday, again sorry for that missunderstanding in the delayed announcement.



    Thank you-"

     

     

    How many times is Henrik going to go to the "it was EPIC's fault not ours" well for an excuse???  I would of thought that well would of went dry already.


  • JakdstripperJakdstripper Member RarePosts: 2,410

    Henrik is only good at two things.........blaming others and deflecting responsability.

     

    it is really sad that such a great game like MO had to be created and developed by Henrik.

  • LahuzerLahuzer Member UncommonPosts: 782

    Originally posted by Lazerus666

     

    How many times is Henrik going to go to the "it was EPIC's fault not ours" well for an excuse???  I would of thought that well would of went dry already.


    Here´s a wild guess. But MAYBE, just maybe, it´s just as simple as the truth... Since they can´t change the code themselves. Sounds like a very good reason to the weekends fiasco. Next time, wich there will be, they just need to get the info out sooner.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,226

    Originally posted by Lahuzer

    Originally posted by Lazerus666

     

    How many times is Henrik going to go to the "it was EPIC's fault not ours" well for an excuse???  I would of thought that well would of went dry already.


    Here´s a wild guess. But MAYBE, just maybe, it´s just as simple as the truth... Since they can´t change the code themselves. Sounds like a very good reason to the weekends fiasco. Next time, wich there will be, they just need to get the info out sooner.

     I'm not even going do dispute that SOME of the issues are related to Epic Games.   What I will dispute is that it is STILL Starvaults fault for passing it off on their customers.. and in particular their new trial users.  Here is why:

     

    I'm not an IT guy, but in my industry when we are getting ready for some big promotion or "peak season" all systems get LOCKED DOWN beforehand.  That means no changes go in for the duration.  In this case it sounds like Starvault rolled out some changes the day of (or day before) the trial launched.. and those changes caused this massive issue with the servers.  While the programing error might be on Epics side, the decision to install (and go home) is 100% StarVault's.  They wouldn't get as much flack if they simply said:

    "We took a risk by installing this new build just before the trials without testing it fully, and that risk came back to bite us.   We strive to make sure you always have a pleasureable gaming experience, but in this instance we certainly came up short. We are working with Epic Games to resolve the issue as soon as possible and apologize for the inconvenience our users, both old and new, experienced this weekend. I will insure that the customerbase is updated throughout the day on our progress."

     

    See... that's  the kind of message I would respect.  Take OWNERSHIP of your only product!

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

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    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • PhelcherPhelcher Member CommonPosts: 1,053

    The fiasco is still Henrik's fault...

     

    Instead of testing, they released the network solution, let it bring down the server, offer lousy game play and anger MO's player base. Why couldn't THAT^ announcement be placed on the MO message board friday night, when they found out about their problems...? Why even install it on a friday?

    Instead, we get "lip service" 3 days later...

    Epic China has caused alot of downfall upon MO, as the Unreal engine has been plagues with problems. It seems Epic (China) is using MO as a test bed for their technology and probably (at this point) funding the game because they have not provided StarVault witha promised game engine and network solution.

     

    The best thing that can hapen at this point is to let Mortal Online fail, let Richard Garriot or some other visionary buy the game, fix the network issues, build new character models/animations and place new crafting, combat mechanics into the game. Henrik has an idea, but he can't build a MMORPG properly, because he doesn't know how to balance anything.

     

    Henrik has no basic understanding of deltas, modifyers & basics.

    Sword and shield should be the standard... yet he can't balance his game around that. Instead, they are trying to figure out what the run speed should be, what the horse speeds should be...  there is no BASE to build off of. The core idea changes weekly. The entire premis for crafting items is poorly thought out. A spear should not gain 80% of it's power from how well it's crafted. The best spear and thee worst spear should only differ by 20% in dmg.  

    Durability is a whole other matter, but when one spear does 30dmg, another spear does 70dmg?  lol... poor hendrik is lost.

     

     

    BASE DMG... then modify.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • gurugeorgegurugeorge Member UncommonPosts: 481

    Originally posted by Lazerus666


    How many times is Henrik going to go to the "it was EPIC's fault not ours" well for an excuse???  I would of thought that well would of went dry already.


    Actually he may not be making excuses but telling the truth.  The impression I've gotten in passing, from my occasional lurkings on game developers boards, etc., is that while the Unreal 3 engine is a great fps and multiplayer fps engine (obviously), there's some stuff specific to the requirements for an MMORPG that it's not so hot for.  I think Vanguard had lots of problems using an earlier version of Unreal 2 (and actually also part of the then-prototype Unreal 3).

    I gather similar problems arise for MMORPGs based on Crysis 2 engine - again, look pretty great, but have some problems relating to network requirements for an MMO, on account of being an fps engine with MMORPG bits and pieces tacked on.

    Sadly I guess the Hero engine, a game engine developed specifically for MMORPGs, wasn't around when SV started this idea, and Unreal 3 must have looked like a good bet at the time.

    Please take the above with a pinch of salt of course, I'm not in the business and not a programmer, but it's what I can piece together from my own intel, in passing, in the course of my amatuer investigations around game design.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,226

    Originally posted by gurugeorge

    Originally posted by Lazerus666


    How many times is Henrik going to go to the "it was EPIC's fault not ours" well for an excuse???  I would of thought that well would of went dry already.


    Actually he may not be making excuses but telling the truth.  The impression I've gotten in passing, from my occasional lurkings on game developers boards, etc., is that while the Unreal 3 engine is a great fps and multiplayer fps engine (obviously), there's some stuff specific to the requirements for an MMORPG that it's not so hot for.  I think Vanguard had lots of problems using an earlier version of Unreal 2 (and actually also part of the then-prototype Unreal 3).

    I gather similar problems arise for MMORPGs based on Crysis 2 engine - again, look pretty great, but have some problems relating to network requirements for an MMO, on account of being an fps engine with MMORPG bits and pieces tacked on.

    Sadly I guess the Hero engine, a game engine developed specifically for MMORPGs, wasn't around when SV started this idea, and Unreal 3 must have looked like a good bet at the time.

    Please take the above with a pinch of salt of course, I'm not in the business and not a programmer, but it's what I can piece together from my own intel, in passing, in the course of my amatuer investigations around game design.

     I agree with everything you said except the first line.  A company is responsible for what THEY sell YOU. Like I said in my post above: While the programing error might be on Epics side, the decision to install the day of their Free Trial (and go home for the weekend) is 100% StarVault's. 

    When I go to watch a movie and the power goes out (which actually just happened to me last weekend!) the movie theater apologizes and gives you a refund.  They don't go on the intercom and say "It's not our fault... it is the power companies fault.. we have been trying to get them to fix it and hope they will get to it on Monday, but please understand that they have many customers so it may not get fixed"

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 Member UncommonPosts: 2,770

    What is with their " we don't work weekends no matter what" policy? is there an actual reason for this? do any other game developing companies do this? Its boggling.

  • dpollackdpollack Member Posts: 15

    Pretty much the same crap that has been going on since launch. This time it happens when they seriously need to be on the ball... the free trial opening weekend.

     

    Even the most diehard fanboys of the game are now venting their anger along with all the new players. None of this comes as a shock, honestly.

  • gurugeorgegurugeorge Member UncommonPosts: 481

    Originally posted by dpollack

    Pretty much the same crap that has been going on since launch. This time it happens when they seriously need to be on the ball... the free trial opening weekend.

     

    Even the most diehard fanboys of the game are now venting their anger along with all the new players. None of this comes as a shock, honestly.

    image It's really a sorry state of affairs.  I guess there's only so far people can go in supporting something like this. 

    It's a shame because, for one thing, the bits that I'm managing to play the game, I'm liking it.  I like the simplicity and bareness, and it is quite immersive in terms of art design, lore, music and gameplay so far.

    I said on another thread, my feeling is they might need to get a real MMORPG hotshot in as a consultant or something, someone with experience either managing an MMO team, or some sort of coding super-genius with MMO experience, or both.  Summat like that anyway.

    Heh, read somewhere someone saying Garriott should just take this over.  Now that would be something interesting to see image

  • dpollackdpollack Member Posts: 15

    The idea that Richard Gariott would step in and rescue this project is pretty much a fantasy. It reminds me of when people go "OOOO, X director should make this game a movie!" talk. The chances of that happening are almost nil as they always have other projects to perform.

    The reality is, that the fanbase is angry and has disolved essentially to practically no one. Opening free trials is a move to build interest and the player count within the game. However, they failed miserably to present the game to fresh faces and at the same time created further headaches for anyone even left playing. 

    I preordered the lootbag. I invested in the game early because what they were reaching for was something practically no other MMO is attempting. I liked the design, I liked the lore, and I liked the overall concept of getting back to the roots. But when you get into game, you see the problems.

    You see the time that has passed, and you know this game is but a broken shell of shattered dreams.

  • Recon48Recon48 Member UncommonPosts: 218

    Reminds me of the Christmas vacation fiasco during beta.  

    1) Push large patch on last day of work

    2) Go home for 2 weeks

    3) Let servers sit mostly broken for the duration

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751

    Originally posted by dpollack

    The idea that Richard Gariott would step in and rescue this project is pretty much a fantasy. It reminds me of when people go "OOOO, X director should make this game a movie!" talk. The chances of that happening are almost nil as they always have other projects to perform.

    The reality is, that the fanbase is angry and has disolved essentially to practically no one. Opening free trials is a move to build interest and the player count within the game. However, they failed miserably to present the game to fresh faces and at the same time created further headaches for anyone even left playing. 

    I preordered the lootbag. I invested in the game early because what they were reaching for was something practically no other MMO is attempting. I liked the design, I liked the lore, and I liked the overall concept of getting back to the roots. But when you get into game, you see the problems.

    You see the time that has passed, and you know this game is but a broken shell of shattered dreams.

    lolwut?

     

    People thought that might actually happen? I know the guy likes going to space and all but he'd have had to have been fucking living up there since MO launched to not realise it would be a bad idea to touch the train wreck that is MO.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • cosycosy Member UncommonPosts: 3,228

    Originally posted by Jakdstripper

    it is really sad that such a great game like MO had to be created and developed by Henrik.

    because other just try to make wow clones and that is even more sad

    BestSigEver :P
    image

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by HerculesSAS
    Yea, he says they work all weekend, but responds to a massive thread on Monday. Sure they worked all weekend... LOL
    I am amazed that people still believe this used car salesman, but hey... maybe he's telling the truth, because you know, his record of statements are usually so true...


    I'm glad I'm not the only person who got the used car salesman vibe off of him. I think MO is pretty much doomed, but it's kind of interesting to bet on exactly how it's going to finally implode.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • HerculesSASHerculesSAS Member Posts: 1,272

    Richard Garriot won't ever buy this game. It would take almost an entire rewrite to get it working and even then, you'd still have a tainted association with StarVault and the stigma of what MO means (bugfest).

     

    As for it being Epic's fault, I just don't buy it. Epic has been making engines and code like this for what, 20 years? They have experience, and there are a LOT of titles that use Unreal Engine successfully and don't have any issues. Hell, Global Agenda is an MMO (instanced, but still), and uses Unreal3, Atlas, and works perfectly. It's not a lot of fun, but that's not really the point.

     

    Who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe a guy that has perpetually lied about new features coming in, just to appease big guilds? Who crafted new systems and implemented them in a HORRIBLE state just to check off a feature box? Whose lead programmer has never shipped a software title in his life, never worked as a developer in any form, and has no formal training on the proper methods and standards that programmers follow? Or do you believe a company whose success lies SOLELY in the fact that they release powerful engines for others to use and implement to save themselves time in the development process? Whose company has a list of successful launches of games that go into the BILLIONS of dollars sold? Who employs experienced veterans of the gaming world?

     

    I won't make up excuses though, I have heard more than once that Unreal is not an easy development environment to work in. But that doesn't make it broken. It makes it take somebody with real skill to pull it off, as well as a solid idea, solid design, solid systems, solid long term planning, and solid mechanics. MO has none of those, and yet still people want to put the blame on Epic? Give me a break. Wake up and smell the coffee folks, because it's not Epic that is at fault here. And if you take my word for it, I suggest you send Epic an email explaining that their "partner" has been badmouthing their product for two+ years already. I think they will handle it differently than Henrik just making up stories to explain to the users why nothing works, patch after patch.

  • gurugeorgegurugeorge Member UncommonPosts: 481

    Originally posted by HerculesSAS

    Who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe a guy that has perpetually lied about new features coming in, just to appease big guilds? Who crafted new systems and implemented them in a HORRIBLE state just to check off a feature box? Whose lead programmer has never shipped a software title in his life, never worked as a developer in any form, and has no formal training on the proper methods and standards that programmers follow? Or do you believe a company whose success lies SOLELY in the fact that they release powerful engines for others to use and implement to save themselves time in the development process? Whose company has a list of successful launches of games that go into the BILLIONS of dollars sold? Who employs experienced veterans of the gaming world?

    But to be fair, it's precisely Epic who admitted a mistake - they're sending a patch, that means they've made a mistake.

    Again, my understanding is that there's a whole bunch of specialised stuff you only get to know about if you've developed MMOs before, to do with databases and networking, that aren't really in the primary field of expertise related to making a first-class rendering engine.  I mean, obviously they'll have top notch people they can find working on those aspects - but I think when you get to the high end of these kinds of professionals, it really does matter where the company's field of expertise lies.

    I think, quite simply, that SV are in above their heads.  They're not stupid, and they obviously are dedicated, but they need some people who have real solid experience with MMOs, and real uber-cleverness to figure out solutions to problems.

  • GirlGamer1GirlGamer1 Member Posts: 6

    Originally posted by gurugeorge

    Originally posted by HerculesSAS



    Who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe a guy that has perpetually lied about new features coming in, just to appease big guilds? Who crafted new systems and implemented them in a HORRIBLE state just to check off a feature box? Whose lead programmer has never shipped a software title in his life, never worked as a developer in any form, and has no formal training on the proper methods and standards that programmers follow? Or do you believe a company whose success lies SOLELY in the fact that they release powerful engines for others to use and implement to save themselves time in the development process? Whose company has a list of successful launches of games that go into the BILLIONS of dollars sold? Who employs experienced veterans of the gaming world?

    But to be fair, it's precisely Epic who admitted a mistake - they're sending a patch, that means they've made a mistake.

    Again, my understanding is that there's a whole bunch of specialised stuff you only get to know about if you've developed MMOs before, to do with databases and networking, that aren't really in the primary field of expertise related to making a first-class rendering engine.  I mean, obviously they'll have top notch people they can find working on those aspects - but I think when you get to the high end of these kinds of professionals, it really does matter where the company's field of expertise lies.

    I think, quite simply, that SV are in above their heads.  They're not stupid, and they obviously are dedicated, but they need some people who have real solid experience with MMOs, and real uber-cleverness to figure out solutions to problems.

    Ahh I remember everytime Henrik said he was waiting on a patch from EPIC.  Now how do you know he is waiting on a patch??  Because EPIC told you or Henrik?

  • HerculesSASHerculesSAS Member Posts: 1,272

    Originally posted by gurugeorge

    Originally posted by HerculesSAS



    Who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe a guy that has perpetually lied about new features coming in, just to appease big guilds? Who crafted new systems and implemented them in a HORRIBLE state just to check off a feature box? Whose lead programmer has never shipped a software title in his life, never worked as a developer in any form, and has no formal training on the proper methods and standards that programmers follow? Or do you believe a company whose success lies SOLELY in the fact that they release powerful engines for others to use and implement to save themselves time in the development process? Whose company has a list of successful launches of games that go into the BILLIONS of dollars sold? Who employs experienced veterans of the gaming world?

    But to be fair, it's precisely Epic who admitted a mistake - they're sending a patch, that means they've made a mistake.

    Again, my understanding is that there's a whole bunch of specialised stuff you only get to know about if you've developed MMOs before, to do with databases and networking, that aren't really in the primary field of expertise related to making a first-class rendering engine.  I mean, obviously they'll have top notch people they can find working on those aspects - but I think when you get to the high end of these kinds of professionals, it really does matter where the company's field of expertise lies.

    I think, quite simply, that SV are in above their heads.  They're not stupid, and they obviously are dedicated, but they need some people who have real solid experience with MMOs, and real uber-cleverness to figure out solutions to problems.

    First, a patch isn't an admission of a mistake... it's fixing an issue that is known and may have little to no bearing on SV's problems.

     

    As for whole bunch of specialized stuff -- that's irrelevant. A good programmer can code regardless of language and regardless of development environment. The lead programmer for SV has NEVER programmed ANYTHING in his life professionally. He's what we commonly refer to as a "script kiddie" who has used his limited experience to build the core of a game he's not trained to handle. I can't say SV is stupid, but I can't ascertain if they are smart either. Their performance thus far shows they are at this point, incompetent to say the least. Like I said, when you make mistakes that a trained programmer would never make, simple things really, then you really have no business trying to integrate a pre-built game engine. And if you know anything about modern game engines, they rely heavily on network code and databasing (not databases, there's a difference). To say that a game engine of today is simply a "rendering engine" is a gross misunderstanding of what exactly a game engine does. This type of stuff is *exactly* in their realm of expertise, and it's not even a CONCEPT that SV understands. When you don't understand the basics of TCP and UDP, packet loss, etc... how exactly are you going to diagnose the problem, nevermind the solution?

  • SHOE788SHOE788 Member Posts: 700

    Originally posted by funkmastaD

    Originally posted by HerculesSAS


    Originally posted by gurugeorge


    Originally posted by HerculesSAS



    Who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe a guy that has perpetually lied about new features coming in, just to appease big guilds? Who crafted new systems and implemented them in a HORRIBLE state just to check off a feature box? Whose lead programmer has never shipped a software title in his life, never worked as a developer in any form, and has no formal training on the proper methods and standards that programmers follow? Or do you believe a company whose success lies SOLELY in the fact that they release powerful engines for others to use and implement to save themselves time in the development process? Whose company has a list of successful launches of games that go into the BILLIONS of dollars sold? Who employs experienced veterans of the gaming world?

    But to be fair, it's precisely Epic who admitted a mistake - they're sending a patch, that means they've made a mistake.

    Again, my understanding is that there's a whole bunch of specialised stuff you only get to know about if you've developed MMOs before, to do with databases and networking, that aren't really in the primary field of expertise related to making a first-class rendering engine.  I mean, obviously they'll have top notch people they can find working on those aspects - but I think when you get to the high end of these kinds of professionals, it really does matter where the company's field of expertise lies.

    I think, quite simply, that SV are in above their heads.  They're not stupid, and they obviously are dedicated, but they need some people who have real solid experience with MMOs, and real uber-cleverness to figure out solutions to problems.

    First, a patch isn't an admission of a mistake... it's fixing an issue that is known and may have little to no bearing on SV's problems.

     

    As for whole bunch of specialized stuff -- that's irrelevant. A good programmer can code regardless of language and regardless of development environment. The lead programmer for SV has NEVER programmed ANYTHING in his life professionally. He's what we commonly refer to as a "script kiddie" who has used his limited experience to build the core of a game he's not trained to handle. I can't say SV is stupid, but I can't ascertain if they are smart either. Their performance thus far shows they are at this point, incompetent to say the least. Like I said, when you make mistakes that a trained programmer would never make, simple things really, then you really have no business trying to integrate a pre-built game engine. And if you know anything about modern game engines, they rely heavily on network code and databasing (not databases, there's a difference). To say that a game engine of today is simply a "rendering engine" is a gross misunderstanding of what exactly a game engine does. This type of stuff is *exactly* in their realm of expertise, and it's not even a CONCEPT that SV understands. When you don't understand the basics of TCP and UDP, packet loss, etc... how exactly are you going to diagnose the problem, nevermind the solution?

     

    Heh, everyone who has never released a commercial game thinks they know more than people that actually have.  Go figure.

    What does any of that have to do with releasing a commercial game? All of that is applicable to software in general. When you don't know what your doing the last thing you do is try to bundle that up and sell it.

  • raff01raff01 Member Posts: 453

    Originally posted by funkmastaD

    Originally posted by HerculesSAS


    Originally posted by gurugeorge


    Originally posted by HerculesSAS



    Who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe a guy that has perpetually lied about new features coming in, just to appease big guilds? Who crafted new systems and implemented them in a HORRIBLE state just to check off a feature box? Whose lead programmer has never shipped a software title in his life, never worked as a developer in any form, and has no formal training on the proper methods and standards that programmers follow? Or do you believe a company whose success lies SOLELY in the fact that they release powerful engines for others to use and implement to save themselves time in the development process? Whose company has a list of successful launches of games that go into the BILLIONS of dollars sold? Who employs experienced veterans of the gaming world?

    But to be fair, it's precisely Epic who admitted a mistake - they're sending a patch, that means they've made a mistake.

    Again, my understanding is that there's a whole bunch of specialised stuff you only get to know about if you've developed MMOs before, to do with databases and networking, that aren't really in the primary field of expertise related to making a first-class rendering engine.  I mean, obviously they'll have top notch people they can find working on those aspects - but I think when you get to the high end of these kinds of professionals, it really does matter where the company's field of expertise lies.

    I think, quite simply, that SV are in above their heads.  They're not stupid, and they obviously are dedicated, but they need some people who have real solid experience with MMOs, and real uber-cleverness to figure out solutions to problems.

    First, a patch isn't an admission of a mistake... it's fixing an issue that is known and may have little to no bearing on SV's problems.

     

    As for whole bunch of specialized stuff -- that's irrelevant. A good programmer can code regardless of language and regardless of development environment. The lead programmer for SV has NEVER programmed ANYTHING in his life professionally. He's what we commonly refer to as a "script kiddie" who has used his limited experience to build the core of a game he's not trained to handle. I can't say SV is stupid, but I can't ascertain if they are smart either. Their performance thus far shows they are at this point, incompetent to say the least. Like I said, when you make mistakes that a trained programmer would never make, simple things really, then you really have no business trying to integrate a pre-built game engine. And if you know anything about modern game engines, they rely heavily on network code and databasing (not databases, there's a difference). To say that a game engine of today is simply a "rendering engine" is a gross misunderstanding of what exactly a game engine does. This type of stuff is *exactly* in their realm of expertise, and it's not even a CONCEPT that SV understands. When you don't understand the basics of TCP and UDP, packet loss, etc... how exactly are you going to diagnose the problem, nevermind the solution?

     

    Heh, everyone who has never released a commercial game thinks they know more than people that actually have.  Go figure.

    No, but most people here have prolly been playing commercial games, MMO's most precisely for long enough to know a few things and to recognise when a developping studio seems professionnal or not.

    Nobody here is pretending to be an expert project manager {mod edit}

  • cirsyndiccirsyndic Member UncommonPosts: 261

    At the end of the day the only thing the customer - the average MMO player - should be concerned about is:

    Am I happy with what I am getting for my money?

    Who tripped and spilled coffee on the server box which caused the network cable to overheat which caused the memory leak which caused the delay in Epic games patch which caused the volcano eruption is and should be an irrelevant issue to the end-customer.

  • gurugeorgegurugeorge Member UncommonPosts: 481

    Originally posted by cirsyndic

    At the end of the day the only thing the customer - the average MMO player - should be concerned about is:

    Am I happy with what I am getting for my money?

    Who tripped and spilled coffee on the server box which caused the network cable to overheat which caused the memory leak which caused the delay in Epic games patch which caused the volcano eruption is and should be an irrelevant issue to the end-customer.

    True in general, but at the same time it's part of the information a customer has to go on, in reckoning whether to stick with the game or not.

    I'm just defending SV a bit because I've heard bad things about the Unreal engines as applied to MMOs, and I have first hand experience of how bad it can be, from playing Vanguard.

    Proposed fact: neither Unreal or Cryengine are purpose-built for MMORPGs.  Is this true or not? 

  • SHOE788SHOE788 Member Posts: 700

    Originally posted by gurugeorge

    Originally posted by cirsyndic

    At the end of the day the only thing the customer - the average MMO player - should be concerned about is:

    Am I happy with what I am getting for my money?

    Who tripped and spilled coffee on the server box which caused the network cable to overheat which caused the memory leak which caused the delay in Epic games patch which caused the volcano eruption is and should be an irrelevant issue to the end-customer.

    True in general, but at the same time it's part of the information a customer has to go on, in reckoning whether to stick with the game or not.

    I'm just defending SV a bit because I've heard bad things about the Unreal engines as applied to MMOs, and I have first hand experience of how bad it can be, from playing Vanguard.

    Proposed fact: neither Unreal or Cryengine are purpose-built for MMORPGs.  Is this true or not? 

     

    Woah woah woah, lets not forget here that SV chose to use Unreal...

    Theres nothing inherently wrong with the engine. It's a good product and does well at what it does.

    Them choosing Unreal was financial ruin because it closed a market of players that would potentially be interested in the game. You can't do that when your game is already catering to a very, very small crowd.

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