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Run its Course

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  • praguespragues Member Posts: 161

    @ WysongCorrection: Mainland China is already in ICC and killing the Lich King since 2 weeks. They launched the last Wotlk patch one week before the Chinese New Year.

    And I didn't know Blizzard introduced real ID back in ... 2000.

    For every old maid there is a new virgin incoming./ ... That's life. Let the new folks play: they have the fun.

    The OP ran "his" course (big difference) , ... he thinks he will live forever....

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by pragues

    Curious how you deleted FinalFantasy 14, DC Universe already from that same list (updated every 3 months I guess)... because everyone simply knows that the first one now will hit the basket 3 months after launch.

    I don't think that DCUO and FFXIV will make a large dent in WoW or better said the whole MMO market, something that I do expect from Rift, TERA, SWTOR, TSW, GW2, Arche Age and WoD combined.

     

    I liked the blue "hasn't shown much decrease" too. Apparently going from 1.1 billion in 2009 to 1.4 billion in 2010 to some is "almost decrease". I still remember a few years ago "they will never top those $ 800 million...again".

    Shrug. I was focusing on the EU/US market, it's evident that the Chinese sub numbers has seen a rise with the WotLK release since shortly after they announced the 12m mark.

    What I'm more curious about and interested in will be the Q1 and Q2 figures, and any announcement of having hit the 12.5 or 13m mark, since some ppl before believed WoW2 - CATA - would boost Wow sub numbers up to 14-20m subs. Also I'm interested in how WoW's sub numbers and of the other current MMO's will be at the end of this year and the 1st half of 2012, after those MMO's will have been released.

    Well perhaps it could have an influence, who knows, but I doubt it will be the correct one for the warriors.

    Heh, aren't you a forum warrior too, but then purely for WoW that you're defending with a passion? image

    There's no correct one, it's just fun to speculate. As for me, I like more diversity and variety in quality and fun MMO's to pick from, that's the most important thing that matters. The rest is just fun speculation for forum debates.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • praguespragues Member Posts: 161

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by pragues

    Curious how you deleted FinalFantasy 14, DC Universe already from that same list (updated every 3 months I guess)... because everyone simply knows that the first one now will hit the basket 3 months after launch.

    I don't think that DCUO and FFXIV will make a large dent in WoW or better said the whole MMO market, something that I do expect from Rift, TERA, SWTOR, TSW, GW2, Arche Age and WoD combined.

     

    I liked the blue "hasn't shown much decrease" too. Apparently going from 1.1 billion in 2009 to 1.4 billion in 2010 to some is "almost decrease". I still remember a few years ago "they will never top those $ 800 million...again".

    Shrug. I was focusing on the EU/US market, it's evident that the Chinese sub numbers has seen a rise with the WotLK release since shortly after they announced the 12m mark.

    What I'm more curious about and interested in will be the Q1 and Q2 figures, and any announcement of having hit the 12.5 or 13m mark, since some ppl before believed WoW - CATA - would boost Wow sub numbers up to 14-20m subs. Also I'm interested in how WoW's sub numbers and of the other current MMO's will be at the end of this year and the 1st half of 2011, after those MMO's will have been released.

    Well perhaps it could have an influence, who knows, but I doubt it will be the correct one for the warriors.

     

    {Mod Edit}

     

    Why would I defend a game that is not even launched ? Just to replace something because of the replacement without a decent quality check?

    It doesn't work that way. Perhaps on forums, but never on the market. History proved it dozens of times. It is even counter productive: more people went back to WOW after games like AoC/War etc...

    You know, perhaps the only problem CATA had was that there was no "competitor" around at its launch. At least patch 4.1 will be heavely played  in ... april/may after people saw the difference again.

     

    Blizzard can't grow without its "competitiors", nor can they "win a battle" against non existent games either. That should be obvious.

  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,597

    ...I'd be one of those who stopped playing in 2006 but went back for Cataclysm and are loving it like never before.

    Perhaps WoW hasn't run its course(little evidence to support its decline), perhaps some of those those that have played since launch have run THEIR course in the game.  It happens.  It's been 6 years.  Those that started in their teens are now faced with a crazy college schedule.  Those that started in college have since graduated and are probably getting ready settle down.  Still for others... alot can change in 6 years.

    For years and years and years, have been stuffed full of vets "calling it quits", shortly followed by CIHYS queries.  It hasn't started with Cat, and it won't stop with it, either.

  • solocronosolocrono Member Posts: 173

    Originally posted by misles

    My personal experience with World of Warcraft:

    I remember when World of Warcraft came hot on the heels of Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne.  Back in 2004 (yes I was in the beta for it back then), it was so cool to consider playing one of the Night Elves, one of the Orcs, or Trolls.  And really, the game was a new style.  It rang with the Blizzard motto of: "No game comes out until we say its finished."  And it had the polish you would expect from a newly released MMORPG.  And the game was great back then.  You felt like part of the Warcraft universe.  People were polite, helpful.  I was on a Roleplay server so it was like really living in a breathing world of Warcraft.  Guilds were great.  Sure, you had one or two that were elitist but on the whole you were able to ignore them with no issue.  The community was something special.

    PvP was kept completely seperate from the PvE or RP servers.  That I at least remember.  Or you just never heard much about it.  You actually had to work and prove yourself.  And the bad players were completely ferretted out.  Again, the community held it together.

    Things started to change a bit with The Burning Crusade.  It wasn't bad at first.  But as time went on, the community we knew changed.  The whiners that griped about the unfairness I guess the word would be seemed to win out.  Now we had space goats and Horde mailbox dancers (Blood Elves).  The community became more crass and while still somewhat tolerable, started to show its ugly side.  The PvP'ers began to overtake the PvE'ers.  Skills changed, classes nerfed, roles lost, and entire classes being exluded regardless if you were good or not.  Everything became much more secular.

    Wrath of the Lich King arrives.  Leveling is sped up (I suppose I could see this.  There was quite a distance between start and end).  But it was no longer a game of skill.  it became a game of: Rush to the end and get l33t (*twitches*) as fast as you can.  The helpfulness was replaced by: L2P Fk'ing NOOB!  There was no sense of community and people in total became laxed players.  The entire gearscore dilemma became the be all and end all.  Min maxing was in full swing.  The game at this point had become fully secular.  Unless you knew someone, you were destined to never find a decent guild.  Or one that wasn't full of Elitist raiders. And I have no issue with those that like to raid...normally.

    When Cataclysm hit, I took a look at the game I onced loved.  I shook my head at how, to me, the game had degraded.  How the community was no longer a community but a group of "children" bashing and hating, making racial and obscene slurs to people they didn't even know.  The old servers that once were held in high regard were now laughable at best for what they had become.  The game had become something I despised.

    Last week I cancelled my two accounts.  It was a good run.  But no longer fun for me.  As you stated Wysong, Warcraft and I are no longer compatible.

    Rest well, my old friend Vanilla Warcraft. 

     This whole post sums up what happened to WoW better than anything else I've ever read, especially the highlighted sentence hits a major problem on the head.

  • Blackfire1Blackfire1 Member UncommonPosts: 116

    Wow is no longer your daddied MMO. Its not like it was in beta or even vanilla.  Its abunch of mini games now.

    I agree with the OP. Thats why I quit and never looked back.

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,972

    Originally posted by pragues

    The topic was "the OP's ran his course".

    I don't see why anyone would wish the MMO leader would "decrease" and uses a name change to gain credibilty.

    At least you know where I am standing.

    And perhaps I'll put up silence again when the WOW warriors fall back to sleep.

    You're a big part of these forums buddy, no matter what name you currently fancy ;)

    My only fear is that you have put all of your eggs into one basket. What happens when that basket (inevitably) expires?

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • praguespragues Member Posts: 161

    Originally posted by Cecropia

    My only fear is that you have put all of your eggs into one basket. What happens when that basket (inevitably) expires?

    I will let you know when the expire date comes through. In the meantime you can't eat eggs that aren't laid yet.

    Never kill the chicken with those golden eggs before you have a new decent  hen either.

    It all sounds very logical to me and a good reminder for people who "care" about the industry as a whole.

     

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,972

    Originally posted by pragues

    Originally posted by Cecropia

    My only fear is that you have put all of your eggs into one basket. What happens when that basket (inevitably) expires?

    I will let you know when the expire date comes through. In the meantime you can't eat eggs that aren't laid yet.

    Never kill the chicken with those golden eggs before you have a new decent  hen either.

    It all sounds very logical to me and a good reminder for people who "care" about the industry as a whole.

     

    I can't wait for whatever "Titan" turns out to be, either. Blizzy doesn't release many titles, but when they do, it's often something special.

    However, being someone who cares greatly for this genre, I do not appreciate the current monopoly that WoW holds over the industry. While WoW was a great kick start to get the genre rolling, the insane number of "followers" we've seen for years as a direct result of WoW's success has brought things to the point stagnation.

    Fortunately, Morhaime is well aware of the genre's condition and plans on bringing us something fresh. Then I can imagine we'll have another flood of copy cats for years to come after Blizzy's next mmo release. Assuming the game is a success, of course.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • BenthonBenthon Member Posts: 2,069

    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Originally posted by pragues

    Originally posted by Cecropia

    My only fear is that you have put all of your eggs into one basket. What happens when that basket (inevitably) expires?

    I will let you know when the expire date comes through. In the meantime you can't eat eggs that aren't laid yet.

    Never kill the chicken with those golden eggs before you have a new decent  hen either.

    It all sounds very logical to me and a good reminder for people who "care" about the industry as a whole.

     

    I can't wait for whatever "Titan" turns out to be, either. Blizzy doesn't release many titles, but when they do, it's often something special.

    However, being someone who cares greatly for this genre, I do not appreciate the current monopoly that WoW holds over the industry. While WoW was a great kick start to get the genre rolling, the insane number of "followers" we've seen for years as a direct result of WoW's success has brought things to the point stagnation.

    Fortunately, Morhaime is well aware of the genre's condition and plans on bringing us something fresh. Then I can imagine we'll have another flood of copy cats for years to come after Blizzy's next mmo release. Assuming the game is a success, of course.

     If Titan dominates the next generation of MMO's, more power to them. I imagine they've learned so much from the last 10 years of games, indie's included, that Titan will dominate.

    He who keeps his cool best wins.

  • anarkaiaanarkaia Member Posts: 76

    I hope it's still fun. I'm seriously thinking about it. Then Diablo 3 later this year. Maybe Diablo 2.

    But I want to explore, not be herded, like someone else said, just to put money in someone else's pockets.

    This is my signature.

  • UnleadedRevUnleadedRev Member UncommonPosts: 568

    Agreed with OP, as WoW has run its course with hardcore players now that it is an "Easy Mode" game. Those new to MMOs and "youngsters" who have not played an MMO or a MMO other than "Hello Kitty Online" will find a good starting point. But for the majority of hardcore and mature players, it would seem WoW has indeed run its course.

  • hayes303hayes303 Member UncommonPosts: 377
    Originally posted by Castekin1000


    Originally posted by hayes303

    I suspect that the best years of WoW are behind it. It will go on for a very long time from now, but its on the decline (in my opinion.).

    Uh huh despite the fact that its last expansion just broke the world record for the fastest selling PC game ever.  Despite the fact that at last count it had over 12 million subscribers (that’s more than the population of some countries), which means it has more subscribers than ever. Despite the fact that not one single server has been merged yet.  When I log onto the wow euro servers during peak times I see very few low pop servers.


     


    But oh no some random person makes some unsubstantiated claim that the game is on decline so it must be.  People on this website have been saying this about wow since the BC.  If it gains a few more million subscribers hayes303 will you come and make a post about how wrong you were?........... I bet you won`t

     

    Sorry, I didn't recently check on this thread.

    You need to take the time to sit down and actual read before responding. When someone says "in my opinion" it traditionally means "in their opinion". I did not state this is fact, nor did I say this game sucks. I played it for 4+ years. I am simply tired of it and believe that it will slowly decline over time and the mythical WoW-killer will never actually materialise.

    I do not think that it will get several more million subs, nor if it did would I apoligise to you or anyone else for my opinion. I bought vanilla, I bought BC, WOTLK and Cata. I did not enjoy Cata and I couldn't care less how many did (I was one of them and had fun for the first couple weeks), nor will I feel bad for that or change my opinion based on fanboy attacks.

    In the future, when I post my opinion on a open forum, I will ensure that I bold face and underline the part that shows my "opinion". If I don't, Castekin1000, will you come on and post a reminder for me?......I bet you won't.
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,435

    Originally posted by spookydom

    image

     

     

    *Edit* Agreed but missed the point of what the o.p is wanting from this thread. 

    hehehe this is kinda funny......" i agree with the OP, but.... whats his point? "   hehe o.O





  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,435

    Originally posted by UnleadedRev

    Agreed with OP, as WoW has run its course with hardcore players now that it is an "Easy Mode" game. Those new to MMOs and "youngsters" who have not played an MMO or a MMO other than "Hello Kitty Online" will find a good starting point. But for the majority of hardcore and mature players, it would seem WoW has indeed run its course.

    i know questing has become easier with cataclysm.... but why ppl now categorize WoW as "easy mode" while WoW official forum is fool of QQs about end game raids/dung being so hard due to healers nerf.... i dont get it...  ppl QQ cos is too hard, and also too easy? ..... move on





  • Chase187666Chase187666 Member UncommonPosts: 138

    I really enjoyed this post and have to agree :)

    image
    image

  • helthroshelthros Member UncommonPosts: 1,449

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by UnleadedRev

    Agreed with OP, as WoW has run its course with hardcore players now that it is an "Easy Mode" game. Those new to MMOs and "youngsters" who have not played an MMO or a MMO other than "Hello Kitty Online" will find a good starting point. But for the majority of hardcore and mature players, it would seem WoW has indeed run its course.

    i know questing has become easier with cataclysm.... but why ppl now categorize WoW as "easy mode" while WoW official forum is fool of QQs about end game raids/dung being so hard due to healers nerf.... i dont get it...  ppl QQ cos is too hard, and also too easy? ..... move on

     

    Trolls and haters don't base their assumptions on anything. More often than not they just saw some other troll posting keywords like "easy mode" "rails" and "instant gratification" and felt 'wow that sounds like they know what they're talking about' and simply adopt it as their own.

     

  • FaelsunFaelsun Member UncommonPosts: 500

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by UnleadedRev

    Agreed with OP, as WoW has run its course with hardcore players now that it is an "Easy Mode" game. Those new to MMOs and "youngsters" who have not played an MMO or a MMO other than "Hello Kitty Online" will find a good starting point. But for the majority of hardcore and mature players, it would seem WoW has indeed run its course.

    i know questing has become easier with cataclysm.... but why ppl now categorize WoW as "easy mode" while WoW official forum is fool of QQs about end game raids/dung being so hard due to healers nerf.... i dont get it...  ppl QQ cos is too hard, and also too easy? ..... move on

    I think your missing a few points, first of all WOW used to attempt to cater to everyone meaning PVPers, and casuals and such.

     Now the raiding might be hard for the average players but for an organized raiding guild its by far easier than what they have to do on EQ2 or FF or even LOTR. WOTLK was soo easy to raid in that making it harder only makes it average. So I think its still classified as EZ mode. PVP its definately EZ mode and homoginized crap now. In WOTLK it was bad now its really really bad. Like I predicted mages are GODs due to the stat and other changes in simplicity. Everone else is simple and the classes/specs that were bad are still bad and in most cases even worse. The skill tree is a joke now a no choice but this choice bee line to the bottom and hybrids are dead, and btw the idea that hybrids were already dead is just a myth created by people using cookie cutter specs and raiders who all use the same thing anyway.

     

    At this point the game is a meaningless, souless gear grind. Not to mention the areas they ruined, took this area away replaced with an instance, took this area away covered it in water... that must have been hard. Or just removed the area entirely. You might as well be playing an Asian grinder, there really isnt a differnence at this point, but then again most of the people playing WOW are from China.

  • BizzlebuffBizzlebuff Member Posts: 87

    Originally posted by Latella

    I played WoW ever since the day of it´s release, and now it´s 3 months ( for the very first time ) i no longer play it.

    And no, it´s not because i am "burned" , because i also play Phantasy Star Online ever since 2000,  it´s because the game has changed so much, and it has NOTHING of what it had back when i fell in love with it.

    I am not gonna say they changed to worse because numbers say otherwhise, and it´s obvious for the majority WoW has evolved into something positive, but it´s simply not what i wanted, what i expected, and what it offered me for many years.

    As many said before, i highly miss the first couple years of WoW, when people did things just because and when gear and progression were secondary.

    Furthermore, the game now is full of instant gratification ,neon signs and constant item upgrade and "accomplishement" because the hellcursed facebook crowd needs it in order to have fun and feel like they are "receiving the worth of their monthly fee".

    Nowadays, WoW feels like a facebook game, some sort of "accomplishement chart" that people compete with themselves to fullfill and complete, without caring for anything else.

    I hope when GW2 comes, i can live again the whole "People doing stuff just because it´s happening and its FUn and not to complete the achievements page to brag in guild chat"

    If not....well.... this summer they are testing PHANTASY STAR ONLINE 2.

     

    Phantasy Star Online...the best ;)

  • drake_hounddrake_hound Member Posts: 773

    Originally posted by wysong

    First off, this isn't a troll post, I don't have anything negative to say about WoW. 

    BUT...  I see a lot of posts regarding WoW falling apart, RIFT will be great, etc etc.

    So I'll break it down from the perspective of someone that played WoW mid 2006 through mid 2010, and gave Cataclsym a shot.  Either I've changed, or WoW's changed t the point where we're no longer compatible, yet I really have nothing against the game; I like the direction of development Cataclsym is taking, even got to 85 - but the community is abhorrent. 

    A lot of changes have contributed to this perspective, and a lot of folks have a firm grasp on what those changes are and why they've had such an effect that I won't go into them here.  The long and short of it is that I believe WoW is losing it's older players, yet gaining newer ones at a similar if not faster rate.  Think of it as a generational swap I guess.

    I know for my part, I've seen my friendslist hemmorage over the last few months - to the point where only a few remain and they never seemed to log on.  The folks I've known IRL all share a similar sentiment and no longer play.

    The purpose of this post is to encourage folks that share similar feelings about the game to just let it go.  It's been real, and it's been fun, but it's not real fun anymore - and that's ok.  There's no reason to rain on the parade of the folks that are new to the game (mostly younger folks), who may be easily influenced by a few negative comments.  It seems to me that a lot of the anger in the game and out, is from folks having trouble just letting it pass on to the new guard.

    Yes i have let it go , but the younger generation keep calling me .... >.<

    So I am still subbed but not even feel like to play , neither RP RAID DAILY ALTS , nothing , the game is just as dead .

    Don´t think anything Blizzard can do can bring the feeling back anymore .

    I don´t mind to pay 15 euro a month , can spare the money incase somebody really need some personal RL issue solved or having to organise a RL meeting .

    But sadly the fun gone out of the game and frankly aside from 1 hackers incident , I don´t even miss the game or the community at all .

    They all have my phone number in RL , if they are too lazy to really keep in contact then so be it .

    But I am not logging in to handle selfishe teenagers with pseudo problems that parents should solve .

  • DrSpankyDrSpanky Member Posts: 341

    I was a wow baby, but I can no longer log on. I give the game credit for introducing me to mmo's and a truly "wow" moment (no pun intended) when I first logged on and realized how massive the game was (remember, my first mmo. I had always loved RPGs). I remember the first time I encountered a goblin and thought, "damn, I wish I could play that race." Which was the primary reason I bought the latest expansion. But the game that was "on rails" already, took it to a new level. I played a bit of the goblin experience and realized, I just couldn't do it anymore. I hadn't played wow in a long while before the expansion, but I always thought of returning when I had the chance. I think I am finally done with wow forever now.

    It's a proven historical fact that beer saved humankind.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,480

    Well, I can't say for everyone else, but for me WOW certainly has run its course.  I've quit a few times actually, 1st time about 9 months after lauch, took a short break, came back for another 9 months and quit again just before BC launched.

    Stayed away over 4 years and came back for Cata.

    Despite the changes, when I got to 85 it was all the same really. Grind faction for gear, grind dungeons for gear, play pvp for gear, do daily quests for cash to buy gear. 

    Just not for me I'm afraid so today I cancelled my sub and am pretty sure its for the last time.

    But of course, for every player that quits it seems another gives it try.

    But you can probably rest assured by now there are more "former" WOW players than thoses still playing.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Well, I can't say for everyone else, but for me WOW certainly has run its course.  I've quit a few times actually, 1st time about 9 months after lauch, took a short break, came back for another 9 months and quit again just before BC launched.

    Stayed away over 4 years and came back for Cata.

    Despite the changes, when I got to 85 it was all the same really. Grind faction for gear, grind dungeons for gear, play pvp for gear, do daily quests for cash to buy gear. 

    Just not for me I'm afraid so today I cancelled my sub and am pretty sure its for the last time.

    But of course, for every player that quits it seems another gives it try.

    But you can probably rest assured by now there are more "former" WOW players than thoses still playing.

    The retention rate of WoW has been public for a while, 30%.

    '30% go above level 10' - Blizz CEO

    What is depressing somewhat is that the vast majority of 70% who leave WoW do not play other MMOs. :(

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    The only part of this that I find disturbing is missing the fun I used to have.  I just don't find that spark anymore.

     

    Oh well, fun while it lasted.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • Gardavil2Gardavil2 Member Posts: 394


    Originally posted by jpnz

    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Well, I can't say for everyone else, but for me WOW certainly has run its course.  I've quit a few times actually, 1st time about 9 months after lauch, took a short break, came back for another 9 months and quit again just before BC launched.
    Stayed away over 4 years and came back for Cata.
    Despite the changes, when I got to 85 it was all the same really. Grind faction for gear, grind dungeons for gear, play pvp for gear, do daily quests for cash to buy gear. 
    Just not for me I'm afraid so today I cancelled my sub and am pretty sure its for the last time.
    But of course, for every player that quits it seems another gives it try.
    But you can probably rest assured by now there are more "former" WOW players than thoses still playing.
    The retention rate of WoW has been public for a while, 30%.
    '30% go above level 10' - Blizz CEO
    What is depressing somewhat is that the vast majority of 70% who leave WoW do not play other MMOs. :(

    That's because WoW has never really been advertised / targetted towards the MMO crowd.

    WoW is marketed to the social crowd and the casual game crowd... and a MMO if it is any good at all is seldom social and casual 100% of the time.

    I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
    ...............
    "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
    __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
    ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...

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