625,347 Full Loot PKs

PhelimReagh · February 2011

Runescape issued a press release with statistics for their "Valentines Day Massacre" weekend. 625,347 player deaths in the new "old" full loot PvP wilderness were recorded across all their servers.

http://services.runescape.com/m=news/valentines-day-massacre---results

Is there a record of anything else like this taking place in other full loot games? I know folks have issues with RS (as I do), and PvP is not my bag, especially when you lose everything/most things you're carrying, but it seems like a pretty vibrant environment for those who like that kind of thing.

Not sure if this would be better in the Runescape forum, but I was interested to know if other games had anything like this.

Snailtrail · February 2011

rune what?

Emergence · February 2011

Don't let anyone ever tell you that permadeath, full loot, FFA PvP, or sandbox games are "niche" and not worth investment because they won't produce profit.

There are MILLIONS of players who want all of the above, making it a very, very, VERY LARGE market for those type of games.

And what's pathetic is how people are so ignorant on what profit even means. Servers do NOT cost that much, nor do employees. People here have no idea how much money even 1000 people bring in, let alone 5000 or more.

If a MMORPG has 5000 players, it is a huge success and creates massive profit. Costs are very, very low compared to the ridiculous, overwhelming profit.

Even a "Dead" MMORPG makes millions per year of profit. This is why DAoC or Everquest 1 won't die. Probably ever.

600,000 full loot PK's just shows there are more than 1000 players that would LOVE a good FFA PvP game. You could easily find 1000 players here that want a permadeath game (which is considered far above full loot ffa PvP in the term of hardcore) and that alone can make a MMORPG well worth being made. And if the game is F2P? 1000 players make A LOT more than 15/month!

SuperXero89 · February 2011

Originally posted by Emergence
Don't let anyone ever tell you that permadeath, full loot, FFA PvP, or sandbox games are "niche" and not worth investment because they won't produce profit.

There are MILLIONS of players who want all of the above, making it a very, very, VERY LARGE market for those type of games.

And what's pathetic is how people are so ignorant on what profit even means. Servers do NOT cost that much, nor do employees. People here have no idea how much money even 1000 people bring in, let alone 5000 or more.

If a MMORPG has 5000 players, it is a huge success and creates massive profit. Costs are very, very low compared to the ridiculous, overwhelming profit.

Even a "Dead" MMORPG makes millions per year of profit. This is why DAoC or Everquest 1 won't die. Probably ever.

600,000 full loot PK's just shows there are more than 1000 players that would LOVE a good FFA PvP game. You could easily find 1000 players here that want a permadeath game (which is considered far above full loot ffa PvP in the term of hardcore) and that alone can make a MMORPG well worth being made. And if the game is F2P? 1000 players make A LOT more than 15/month!

If this is true, why was Asheron's Call 2 loosing money for Turbine before they shut it down? Surely they had more than 5,000 subscribers.

Xasapis · February 2011

I'm not so sure that the market can sustain more FFA full loot games that it currently has.

Gabby-air · February 2011

Just to clarify, Only a certain area in runescape called the wilderness is FFA and its only meant to be there for pvp. Rest of the world, is PVE only or regular pvp like duel wars, castle wars and things like those where you don't loose everything when you die.

So saying FFA PVP games are successful looking at these numbers is flawed, and like I've always said, you need both to be successful which considering runescape and Eve's numbers is quite evident when compared to fully PVE sandbox games like ryzom or FFA pvp games such as darkfall.

gaeanprayer · February 2011

Originally posted by Emergence

Stuff

Incorrect. You're comparing a game that's relatively f2p, and a browser game, therefore extremely accessable, to games that are p2p. At least, I assume you are, because it would have to be p2p in order to survive on 1000 players. Runescape is an old game with a huge, rabid, fanatical playerbase that sticks with it despite its age, and its lackluster graphics. Running in your browser, it's also the frequent go-to game for people on their coffee break. It's not comparable with the type of game you're thinking of, and Runescape is basically its own monster. Most PvE games aren't even as popular as Runscape, let alone PvP games.

Also, Runescape is one of those games where loot doesn't really matter. For this same reason, Darkfall PvP is popular, because even though you lose all your items when you die, none of it is ~that~ important. I'm willing to bet most of those deaths are repeated many times over by people with plenty of money and gear to burn through. I myself went in there with crappy gear purely for the sake of having fun. I had noob gear, knowing I'd die, and didn't want to lose anything. It was me and a group of friends. We had a good time, but there was no risk to it. We didn't lose anything we cared about.

If we didn't have that option, as you wouldn't in an entirely FFA game, we wouldn't have done that. Actually, we wouldn't have been playing, period. People like us take from those numbers. Also take from the numbers the people who wandered there unknowingly, the people who wandered in there then quit when they lost everything, and the people that avoided it all together, and you don't have nearly the amount of people into FFA as you might have initially thought.

Airspell · February 2011

Originally posted by Emergence
Don't let anyone ever tell you that permadeath, full loot, FFA PvP, or sandbox games are "niche" and not worth investment because they won't produce profit.

There are MILLIONS of players who want all of the above, making it a very, very, VERY LARGE market for those type of games.

And what's pathetic is how people are so ignorant on what profit even means. Servers do NOT cost that much, nor do employees. People here have no idea how much money even 1000 people bring in, let alone 5000 or more.

If a MMORPG has 5000 players, it is a huge success and creates massive profit. Costs are very, very low compared to the ridiculous, overwhelming profit.

Even a "Dead" MMORPG makes millions per year of profit. This is why DAoC or Everquest 1 won't die. Probably ever.

600,000 full loot PK's just shows there are more than 1000 players that would LOVE a good FFA PvP game. You could easily find 1000 players here that want a permadeath game (which is considered far above full loot ffa PvP in the term of hardcore) and that alone can make a MMORPG well worth being made. And if the game is F2P? 1000 players make A LOT more than 15/month!

600k deaths does not = 600k PKers lol.

Server costs add up quite a bit, especially since their cost increase isn't steady but exponential with increase of load.

Employees don't cost alot ? Maybe in china they don't. I'm not gonna give you a rundown on wages across the globe, but you'll probably need around 100+ subs(20 euro each) in a civilised country to pay ONE employee, and that's minimum for an inexperienced college grad. Probably more but I'm being extremely conservative here.

Return of investment is probably the biggest killer of games obviously. Publishers and banks(loans) want to see a return as quickly as possible, which in turn can adversly affect the product and force devs to make dumb mistakes. It takes a while to break even on the initital cost alone. EvE was a lottery winner in that regard as it is in my view the luckiest game in the history of mmos considering it kept getting invesment despite being a tremendous mess.

Taxes, yes they exist. Need I explain this one at all ?

Offices, obviously not a biggie for bigger publishers but for a small indie developer every penny counts.

I'm sure there's more but I think this is enough to show running a game is no walk in the park financially speaking.

mCalvert · February 2011

Originally posted by PhelimReagh
Runescape issued a press release with statistics for their "Valentines Day Massacre" weekend. 625,347 player deaths in the new "old" full loot PvP wilderness were recorded across all their servers.

http://services.runescape.com/m=news/valentines-day-massacre---results

Is there a record of anything else like this taking place in other full loot games? I know folks have issues with RS (as I do), and PvP is not my bag, especially when you lose everything/most things you're carrying, but it seems like a pretty vibrant environment for those who like that kind of thing.

Not sure if this would be better in the Runescape forum, but I was interested to know if other games had anything like this.

Heres a old dev blog from EVE showing up to 300k ships destroyed every month. The number is probably higher now.

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=656

Emergence · February 2011

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by Emergence

Stuff

Incorrect. You're comparing a game that's relatively f2p, and a browser game, therefore extremely accessable, to games that are p2p. At least, I assume you are, because it would have to be p2p in order to survive on 1000 players. Runescape is an old game with a huge, rabid, fanatical playerbase that sticks with it despite its age, and its lackluster graphics. Running in your browser, it's also the frequent go-to game for people on their coffee break. It's not comparable with the type of game you're thinking of, and Runescape is basically its own monster. Most PvE games aren't even as popular as Runscape, let alone PvP games.

Also, Runescape is one of those games where loot doesn't really matter. For this same reason, Darkfall PvP is popular, because even though you lose all your items when you die, none of it is ~that~ important. I'm willing to bet most of those deaths are repeated many times over by people with plenty of money and gear to burn through. I myself went in there with crappy gear purely for the sake of having fun. I had noob gear, knowing I'd die, and didn't want to lose anything. It was me and a group of friends. We had a good time, but there was no risk to it. We didn't lose anything we cared about.

If we didn't have that option, as you wouldn't in an entirely FFA game, we wouldn't have done that. Actually, we wouldn't have been playing, period. People like us take from those numbers. Also take from the numbers the people who wandered there unknowingly, the people who wandered in there then quit when they lost everything, and the people that avoided it all together, and you don't have nearly the amount of people into FFA as you might have initially thought.

F2P actually brings in more money than P2P games. Hence why LOTRO, EQ2, DDO all went F2P.

I can see a P2P game losing money, depending on how that company handles its servers, how many people they have on staff and how much they pay, etc. etc.

Every game will have its "minimum" required to sustain the game, depending on how it is setup and how much profit they want.

Also, just because a game is making a profit doesn't mean it won't close down. Sometimes it is not worth hiring employees and paying them for a game that makes only a small profit, when those same employees could go over to a game which makes much more profit. Every company has different costs for their employees and servers as well, once again depending on the company itself.

A game can easily survive on 1000 players if it is P2P, but ESPECIALLY if it is F2P. The business aspect of F2P is simply stunning, and soon we will see nearly all MMORPG's turn into F2P. Well, we're already seeing that, since it just now began with DDO, then LOTRO, followed by EQ2 and Champions Online. It's the wave of the future, and there's no reason NOT to go F2P because of the profits. One player may spend hundreds per week, which easily makes up for nearly all who don't pay. Others will simply subscribe for the $15/month for normal access which all these games still provide. It's a win/win for everyone-- both players and developers. Perhaps I'd disagree with that statement with EQ2 and SOE, as their prices for things in the item shop are extremely ridiculous, but apparently still successful (probably because of the ridiculous prices)...or else they wouldn't have continued to push it and eventually make it F2P.

P2P is fading, and rightly so. We'll see a lot of change in the next 5 years of MMO gaming.

Emergence · February 2011

Originally posted by Airspell

Originally posted by Emergence

Don't let anyone ever tell you that permadeath, full loot, FFA PvP, or sandbox games are "niche" and not worth investment because they won't produce profit.

There are MILLIONS of players who want all of the above, making it a very, very, VERY LARGE market for those type of games.

And what's pathetic is how people are so ignorant on what profit even means. Servers do NOT cost that much, nor do employees. People here have no idea how much money even 1000 people bring in, let alone 5000 or more.

If a MMORPG has 5000 players, it is a huge success and creates massive profit. Costs are very, very low compared to the ridiculous, overwhelming profit.

Even a "Dead" MMORPG makes millions per year of profit. This is why DAoC or Everquest 1 won't die. Probably ever.

600,000 full loot PK's just shows there are more than 1000 players that would LOVE a good FFA PvP game. You could easily find 1000 players here that want a permadeath game (which is considered far above full loot ffa PvP in the term of hardcore) and that alone can make a MMORPG well worth being made. And if the game is F2P? 1000 players make A LOT more than 15/month!

   600k deaths does not = 600k PKers lol.

I know this, and if you read correctly you would have clearly noticed I said exactly this:

600k deaths = > 1000 players.

How did you come up with me saying 600k deaths = 600k players when I CLEARLY and REPEATEDLY said 600k deaths = at least 1000 players????

   Server costs add up quite a bit, especially since their cost increase isn't steady but exponential with increase of load.

Actually, server costs are not exponential with increase of load. The more players, the cheaper it gets. To have your own server and the employees involved require a set base, regardless if that server is being used 1% or 100%.

   Employees don't cost alot ? Maybe in china they don't. I'm not gonna give you a rundown on wages across the globe, but you'll probably need around 100+ subs(20 euro each) in a civilised country to pay ONE employee, and that's minimum for an inexperienced college grad. Probably more but I'm being extremely conservative here.

You don't have to give me a rundown in wages, because you don't work in the MMORPG industry or know of the facts. I actually work in the industry. Employees do not cost very much compared to the massive income. Server costs are a bigger chunk than employee cost.

I don't think you understand the business aspect to MMORPG's. If you pull in 5000 players, that's 900k revenue. Even if employees and servers cost 800k of that, you still profit 100k, which is A LOT of money. Profit is profit. The more players, the more revenue, and costs do not scale exponentially. You will have a significant more amount of profit with 10,000 players than you would 5000 players.

   Return of investment is probably the biggest killer of games obviously. Publishers and banks(loans) want to see a return as quickly as possible, which in turn can adversly affect the product and force devs to make dumb mistakes. It takes a while to break even on the initital cost alone. EvE was a lottery winner in that regard as it is in my view the luckiest game in the history of mmos considering it kept getting invesment despite being a tremendous mess.

With the ridiculous amount companies spend to make their games, this is certainly true. However, not every MMORPG that is released took hundreds of millions of dollars. There are MMORPG's which release making millions a year that cost >10k to start and invest.

It really just depends on how much the investment is compared to how big the target audience is. Investors want to see profits, so if they have to invest less for more, that's entirely possible. Also, not every MMORPG needs AAA customer support. Of course, you also need to remember that AAA titles are run by AAA companies, which have tech support which help with MULTIPLE games. If you have 10 employees for MMORPG #1 and 100 for MMORPG #2, it might be possible to simply make those 100 handle both #1 and #2 because the 100 just can.

I really don't have to discuss business aspects of having multiple MMORPG's under one roof, and how costs are saved because of this, which increase profits by a significant margin. Also, if SOE has 10 AAA titles and 10 small games, the investors and company see profits as a combined total, so if a game only makes 100k a year by itself, it might not be enough of a profit per year, but if you have 10 small games making that, it equates to a million a year. SOE & EA do much more than just AAA title MMORPG, but also do browser MMORPG's, mini-game MMORPG's (Tanarus or Infantry) as well as "Sony Access Pass" which is something entirely by itself, providing access to everything they have.

   Taxes, yes they exist. Need I explain this one at all ?

The government doesn't take 100% of your revenue, sorry.

   Offices, obviously not a biggie for bigger publishers but for a small indie developer every penny counts.

Indie developers don't even necessarily need offices. The browser MMORPG company I work for is based in Australia, but everyone works from their own home. So while offices for big publishers isn't as much a problem, neither do offices for indie developers matter so much. Also, indie developers are MUCH more flexible in where their offices can be, thus resulting in cheaper costs. This subject is null, as this is entirely individually based, and not necessarily even a cost.

   I'm sure there's more but I think this is enough to show running a game is no walk in the park financially speaking.

Of course... but neither is the massive amount of profits. Revenue is 900k a year with only 5000 stable playerbase. Costs may be almost all of that, but a MMORPG with only 5000 players will not have 5000 employees. In fact, a playerbase of only 5000 means that only a % of that will ever be online at one time. Only a % of that % will need tech support at any one moment. Companies also can outsource tech support to OTHER COMPANIES because it's not worth even hiring 1 employee to handle it.

You have to think about how not every MMORPG is a AAA title by SOE, EA, or Blizzard. And even so--- these companies own smaller MMORPG's and browser games which are not AAA titles, but profit them a ridiculous amount of money!

I never said the costs are low, period. I said that the costs are low compared to the profit. If you have 900k a year, and costs are 800k a year, that's a pretty large profit. For who? A very small team, as it does NOT take a AAA team to run a MMORPG with only 5000 players, as the total # of players on at any one time is NOT 5000.

A few years ago I read an article claiming at DAoC had about 25k subscribers, but the max number of players on at any one time from 2.5k to 3k. If there are 5000 subscribers, the max number of players on at any one time (relative to that article, which I don't know its accuracy) would be 500 players. Do you know how CHEAP it would be to have a server able to handle 500 players? How FEW employees you'd need? Yet those "500 players" are actually 5000, paying you 900k a year.

Think about it... costs are NOT as high as you think.

Laughing-man · February 2011

Hope this helps the FFA PVP people out in getting a quality game made for your group, the recent disapointments of Darkfall and MO not delivering a high standard of game really was hurting the chances at a truely amazing game being made for you all. Now this will show developers that its profitable and desirable, and if they make the right game they'll make a lot of players happy and make a lot of money too.

Emergence · February 2011

Originally posted by SuperXero89
If this is true, why was Asheron's Call 2 loosing money for Turbine before they shut it down? Surely they had more than 5,000 subscribers.

It would be very interesting to find out why AC2 as well as other MMORPG's went under and closed their doors. I really don't think it has to do with lack of profit, but possibly something else (which may or may not be based on the lack of a set % of profit, as some companies will close doors on a game that only profits $1 a year, hehehehe...)

Interesting · February 2011

In a next gen AAA polished sandbox there is target audience of atleast 5 million players.

mmo22 · February 2011

Originally posted by Emergence
-nonsensical assumption-

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Your numbers are fictional at best. While 5000 users may be considered a success for perhaps asmall team (2-3 people tops). In the F2P market 1.5% of users will actually invest in your game. You do the math, it's not enough to buy lunch let alone pay legal, marketing, and development.

Loktofeit · February 2011

Originally posted by Emergence
Don't let anyone ever tell you that permadeath, full loot, FFA PvP, or sandbox games are "niche" and not worth investment because they won't produce profit.

There are MILLIONS of players who want all of the above, making it a very, very, VERY LARGE market for those type of games.

While the first sentence may be true, that second one is a hard sell without bringing some supporting data to the table. The number of people that wants permadeath alone is very small, let alone people who want everything in that list in one game.

And what's pathetic is how people are so ignorant on what profit even means. Servers do NOT cost that much, nor do employees. People here have no idea how much money even 1000 people bring in, let alone 5000 or more.

At 15 dollars per player, 1000 subscribers would probably really be cutting it close. Let's take a barebones system and look at it from that angle:

one programmer, one 3D modeller, one texture artist, one support rep, and one IT guy. Let's leave out all managerial and administrative positions and run with just those five people. If they are all making only 30k each, the cost to pay that tiny team for the month is mathematically about 12.5k, but realistically 15k-17k. Actually, you probably won't have to worry about that for long, because at that salary, and with no extra perks, half the team is going to head elsewhere in a couple months anyway.

On the money handling side, figure in the reimbursements, fraud and billing/processing fees.

On the server side, you have server maintenance and upgrades. Running an MMO is more than just loading the server software on a hosted machine somewhere and rebooting it once a day.

For customer support, you can get MigSquared, Alchemic Dream, MetaVerse, etc to handle your support or you can hire more people, but that one dude isn't going to be able to pull off petitions, in-game support and community work by himself.

Some more members should be added to that team for QA. Oh, my stars and garters, that's a biggie. The team should have had him to begin with, but we're flying economy on this trip.

R&S and Log Analysis. Sticking to cheap, we're probably not going to be looking at much down the line of OLAP queries and such, but someone is going to need to process and parse the logs, review the data and not only watch for red flags but also offer proactive suggestions based on the server performance and player behaviour.

Acquisition and Retention - Someone needs to handle that. "Build it and they will come" works for chick flicks and fantasy movies but not real life. Someone has to advertise the game, manage the churn and keep the players coming in. Word of mouth can only do so much.

I already know where this one is going to go but... bills and business expenses. Software, maintenance, monthly bills and general supplies.

Again, we're sticking to bare bones here. But 1,000 subscribers wouldn't even cover salaries. If you bump the sub numbers to 5,000, you still have to bump up the staff and resources to support that.

And if the game is F2P? 1000 players make A LOT more than 15/month!

Keep in mind that only a small percentage of the playerbase in a F2P game ever pay any money. Numbers from K2 networks, Nexon, Three Rings Design and other companies indicate that 10-15% of the playerbase ever spends a dime. This means you'd need probably about 30k-50k when you start figuring how much people actually pay. While you are correct that the Average Return Per paying user (ARPPU) is often rather high, the Average Return Per User (ARPU) for a F2P game is often between $1 and $4, meaning a much larger playerbase is needed to get that percentage of spenders in to make anywhere near what the subscription system would make. Some good charts and data for f2p games can be found here for those that want to read a bit more on how the money works.

Emergence · February 2011

Originally posted by mmo22

Originally posted by Emergence

-nonsensical assumption-

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Your numbers are fictional at best. While 5000 users may be considered a success for perhaps asmall team (2-3 people tops). In the F2P market 1.5% of users will actually invest in your game. You do the math, it's not enough to buy lunch let alone pay legal, marketing, and development.

In the F2P market 1.5% of users will actually spend money?

Where is this figure coming from?

I actually live off of that supposed "1.5% of users" so I actually survive and have an income solely based on the F2P market.

What do you do for a living? And where is your evidence that 1.5% of users is the average amount?

Unless you have first-hand experience in the MMORPG industry, you need to have proper evidence to support this magical number of 1.5%. If you have first-hand experience, I am very sorry that it is so low for you

(Not being sarcastic, that sucks if you only make revenue off of 1.5% of players...)

Emergence · February 2011

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Emergence

Don't let anyone ever tell you that permadeath, full loot, FFA PvP, or sandbox games are "niche" and not worth investment because they won't produce profit.

There are MILLIONS of players who want all of the above, making it a very, very, VERY LARGE market for those type of games.

While the first sentence may be true, that second one is a hard sell without bringing some supporting data to the table. The number of people that wants permadeath alone is very small, let alone people who want everything in that list in one game.

Won't argue here, np.

And what's pathetic is how people are so ignorant on what profit even means. Servers do NOT cost that much, nor do employees. People here have no idea how much money even 1000 people bring in, let alone 5000 or more.

At 15 dollars per player, 1000 subscribers would probably really be cutting it close. Let's take a barebones system and look at it from that angle:

one programmer, one 3D modeller, one texture artist, one support rep, and one IT guy. Let's leave out all managerial and administrative positions and run with just those five people. If they are all making only 30k each, the cost to pay that tiny team for the month is mathematically about 12.5k, but realistically 15k-17k. Actually, you probably won't have to worry about that for long, because at that salary, and with no extra perks, half the team is going to head elsewhere in a couple months anyway.

Once the game launches, you no longer need a 3D modeler, a texture artist-- and that is to say you even had one in the first place, or that your game is in 2D. A lot of browser based MMORPG's are 2D, and there are a boatload of companies which outsource a lot of work, from art to even programming.

On the money handling side, figure in the reimbursements, fraud and billing/processing fees.

On the server side, you have server maintenance and upgrades. Running an MMO is more than just loading the server software on a hosted machine somewhere and rebooting it once a day.

You don't have to explain this to me, since I work for a company that runs a MMORPG and I live off of the revenue.

For customer support, you can get MigSquared, Alchemic Dream, MetaVerse, etc to handle your support or you can hire more people, but that one dude isn't going to be able to pull off petitions, in-game support and community work by himself.

Some more members should be added to that team for QA. Oh, my stars and garters, that's a biggie. The team should have had him to begin with, but we're flying economy on this trip.

R&S and Log Analysis. Sticking to cheap, we're probably not going to be looking at much down the line of OLAP queries and such, but someone is going to need to process and parse the logs, review the data and not only watch for red flags but also offer proactive suggestions based on the server performance and player behaviour.

Acquisition and Retention - Someone needs to handle that. "Build it and they will come" works for chick flicks and fantasy movies but not real life. Someone has to advertise the game, manage the churn and keep the players coming in. Word of mouth can only do so much.

I already know where this one is going to go but... bills and business expenses. Software, maintenance, monthly bills and general supplies.

Again, we're sticking to bare bones here. But 1,000 subscribers wouldn't even cover salaries. If you bump the sub numbers to 5,000, you still have to bump up the staff and resources to support that.

Really, what you are arguing has nothing to do with MMORPG's, but how businesses are run or what kind of business it is. Technically, two people could get together and create a MMORPG solely by themselves, resulting in becoming one of the biggest F2P MMORPG's out there. (ex. Runescape)
And if the game is F2P? 1000 players make A LOT more than 15/month!

Keep in mind that only a small percentage of the playerbase in a F2P game ever pay any money. Numbers from K2 networks, Nexon, Three Rings Design and other companies indicate that 10-15% of the playerbase ever spends a dime. This means you'd need probably about 30k-50k when you start figuring how much people actually pay. While you are correct that the Average Return Per paying user (ARPPU) is often rather high, the Average Return Per User (ARPU) for a F2P game is often between $1 and $4, meaning a much larger playerbase is needed to get that percentage of spenders in to make anywhere near what the subscription system would make. Some good charts and data for f2p games can be found here for those that want to read a bit more on how the money works.

Perhaps our game is just more successful than others, but our sister company is even more successful than us, and none of the above is true that players spend very little in either us or our sister company.

In some MMORPG's, there are players who spend thousands of dollars a week. That's right... THOUSANDS a week.

I guess it really depends on how the item shop is setup, what is sold, how much it is sold for, how desirable the items are, etc. etc.

I really don't have to argue. The sole fact EQ2, LOTRO, DDO, and now Champions Online have all went F2P is testiment enough that F2P brings in A LOT of profit.

Regardless...P2P brings in A LOT of profit too. I don't even have to argue about F2P's profits, as P2P makes plenty enough to give even a small MMORPG a VERY large amount of profit per year, after costs.

Everyone's arguments here seem to be based on the idea that MMORPG's REQUIRE [this] or REQUIRE [that]. A MMORPG can be as simple as two young people working hard to produce a 2D Runescape, or a giant mega-corp such as Blizzard hiring thousands of people with high paying salaries to craft a 3D monster.

You don't even need a 3D modeler if your game is 2D, which a lot of MMORPG's are.

I think everyone's problem is that they are thinking very small, that MMORPG's are exclusively AAA titles by AAA companies wielding AAA profits and AAA investments. This is entirely false, as there are hundreds of MMORPG's run by very small companies, probably because it is such a lucrative business.

TUX426 · February 2011

Originally posted by Emergence
Don't let anyone ever tell you that permadeath, full loot, FFA PvP, or sandbox games are "niche" and not worth investment because they won't produce profit.

There are MILLIONS of players who want all of the above, making it a very, very, VERY LARGE market for those type of games.

They're niche. Those millions of players tend to play FPS games (CoD, Halo), not MMOs.

Emergence · February 2011

Honestly, it seems as though no one really knows what they are talking about.

One poster says 1.5% of players ever spend a dime. The next (which is a bit more credible) say 10%+.

Doesn't really matter though...as it's irrelevant whether or not F2P brings in more or less profit than P2P. The profits of either are more than enough to support a MMORPG and make the developers or company (depending on the business) very well off.

I really would love to hear from someone here that actually has experience creating a MMORPG or working for a company which makes them. Until then, saying "You don't know what you're talking about!" is rather silly when you're telling someone who earns their income FROM a F2P mmorpg, that they don't know what they're talking about, while you (someone who doesn't work at all in the industry, and just makes rash assumptions, randomly generator percentages, or unsupported claims) somehow knows I am wrong.

*scratches his head*

Well, I guess my bank is going to be REALLY pissed that I am wrong about this, as the money I am being payed must be imaginary, so they must not realize their error yet. When they find out I am wrong, they'll be pretty upset with my withdrawls oh geez!!!

Emergence · February 2011

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by Emergence

Don't let anyone ever tell you that permadeath, full loot, FFA PvP, or sandbox games are "niche" and not worth investment because they won't produce profit.

There are MILLIONS of players who want all of the above, making it a very, very, VERY LARGE market for those type of games.

They're niche. Those millions of players tend to play FPS games (CoD, Halo), not MMOs.

Wow, how do you know this?

dirtyjoe78 · February 2011

Originally posted by Emergence

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by Emergence
Don't let anyone ever tell you that permadeath, full loot, FFA PvP, or sandbox games are "niche" and not worth investment because they won't produce profit.

There are MILLIONS of players who want all of the above, making it a very, very, VERY LARGE market for those type of games.

They're niche. Those millions of players tend to play FPS games (CoD, Halo), not MMOs.

Wow, how do you know this?

Here is one example just from the call of duty MW2 and BLOPS

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/gaming/2010-11-26-blackopswriter26_ST_N.htm

650million in sales in the first 5 days says a lot of people play the game 650mil/60 = 10.83million players that bought the game and thats just black ops, wont mention the battlefield series or halo FPS games blow MMO's out of the water in sales and profit.

Loktofeit · February 2011

Originally posted by Emergence
Honestly, it seems as though no one really knows what they are talking about.

One poster says 1.5% of players ever spend a dime. The next (which is a bit more credible) say 10%+.

Doesn't really matter though...as it's irrelevant whether or not F2P brings in more or less profit than P2P. The profits of either are more than enough to support a MMORPG and make the developers or company (depending on the business) very well off.

I really would love to hear from someone here that actually has experience creating a MMORPG or working for a company which makes them. Until then, saying "You don't know what you're talking about!" is rather silly when you're telling someone who earns their income FROM a F2P mmorpg, that they don't know what they're talking about, while you (someone who doesn't work at all in the industry, and just makes rash assumptions, randomly generator percentages, or unsupported claims) somehow knows I am wrong.

*scratches his head*

Well, I guess my bank is going to be REALLY pissed that I am wrong about this, as the money I am being payed must be imaginary, so they must not realize their error yet. When they find out I am wrong, they'll be pretty upset with my withdrawls oh geez!!!

The company you work for sounds amazing. Looking forward to one day hearing which game/studio it is and how they managed numbers that dwarf powerhouses like K2, Nexon, OHAI, and Zynga.

Emergence · February 2011

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Keep in mind that only a small percentage of the playerbase in a F2P game ever pay any money. Numbers from K2 networks, Nexon, Three Rings Design and other companies indicate that 10-15% of the playerbase ever spends a dime. This means you'd need probably about 30k-50k when you start figuring how much people actually pay. While you are correct that the Average Return Per paying user (ARPPU) is often rather high, the Average Return Per User (ARPU) for a F2P game is often between $1 and $4, meaning a much larger playerbase is needed to get that percentage of spenders in to make anywhere near what the subscription system would make. Some good charts and data for f2p games can be found here for those that want to read a bit more on how the money works.

I figured I'd just convince you using your own provided link.

It took me a few seconds to find this:

Steve Heighway

2 votes by Serkan Toto and Alan Nguyen

The numbers for social gaming for featurephones in Japan are quite different - DeNA (mobage platform), who recently acquired ngmoco, have an estimated ARPPU of USD30+, and a conversion rate (paying users/all users) of 10%+. The ARPPU is heavily skewed by heavy users, who spend USD100s per month, such is the addiction of these social games.

http://www.dena.jp/en/ir/pdf/Agr...

The stats are also very different for online PC games, with ARPPU of USD50+ and conversion 15%.

(Estimates by Mitsubishi UFJ Morgan Stanley, Nov 2010)

Perhaps your statistics are rather old (2009 is old in this market...) November 2010 on an international level are much more accurate. You also have to think globally, not just in Western but also in Eastern business.

I'd like to bring to notice this sentence, which is VERY important in expressing how F2P is so successful and profitable, raking in millions with a low cost.

"The ARPPU is heavily skewed by heavy users, who spend USD100s per month..."

There are users who spend USD1000's per month as well, even if they are fewer than the ones who spend USD100's.

Idk how else to convince you, but to allow everyone their own opinion, which will be incorrect if they think the profts are not high for even a small (successful) mmorpg of only a handful of players.

Really, everyone is arguing business model, not MMORPG profits. Splitting profits among employees is less relevant in a small company than it is a mega-corp.

Emergence · February 2011

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Emergence

Honestly, it seems as though no one really knows what they are talking about.

One poster says 1.5% of players ever spend a dime. The next (which is a bit more credible) say 10%+.

Doesn't really matter though...as it's irrelevant whether or not F2P brings in more or less profit than P2P. The profits of either are more than enough to support a MMORPG and make the developers or company (depending on the business) very well off.

I really would love to hear from someone here that actually has experience creating a MMORPG or working for a company which makes them. Until then, saying "You don't know what you're talking about!" is rather silly when you're telling someone who earns their income FROM a F2P mmorpg, that they don't know what they're talking about, while you (someone who doesn't work at all in the industry, and just makes rash assumptions, randomly generator percentages, or unsupported claims) somehow knows I am wrong.

*scratches his head*

Well, I guess my bank is going to be REALLY pissed that I am wrong about this, as the money I am being payed must be imaginary, so they must not realize their error yet. When they find out I am wrong, they'll be pretty upset with my withdrawls oh geez!!!

The company you work for sounds amazing. Looking forward to one day hearing which game/studio it is and how they managed numbers that dwarf powerhouses like K2, Nexon, OHAI, and Zynga.

These numbers don't really mean much...

There is a heavy amount of math involved. 1% of [population] who tend to pay [currency] per month can vary in what it means.

I would get fired if I mentioned what our company makes, the amount players tend to pay, the averages, the high payers, etc. I have mentioned enough in this post about something I shouldn't be talking about (the company's profits so far) that I could get in a lot of trouble if they even knew I was posting here.

However, once our first game goes live, I'll gladly give you a link so you can go and play For free of course! As there will be several other players who pay so much more than your free ride takes from us, that I'll be perfectly fine about it.

If financial matters weren't so important to companies, I'd just suggest you go to one to find out their actual costs vs profits, and what % of the costs are servers/employees/etc. and where the profits go.

At least then you could get some experience as opposed to relying on random internet articles or numbers which mean nothing without knowing the actual numbers of revenue, costs, profit, etc.

I severely doubt we will be as successful as a "powerhouse" as you put it, but that doesnt' mean I won't be paid more than the employees over there

Ergh, which reminds me, I really need to get off my break and get back to work! I've spent way too long on these forums (although I absolutely LOVE it! these forums are so fun!) I have more art to create...ugh!

fa la la and farewell

Loktofeit · February 2011

Originally posted by Emergence

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Keep in mind that only a small percentage of the playerbase in a F2P game ever pay any money. Numbers from K2 networks, Nexon, Three Rings Design and other companies indicate that 10-15% of the playerbase ever spends a dime. This means you'd need probably about 30k-50k when you start figuring how much people actually pay. While you are correct that the Average Return Per paying user (ARPPU) is often rather high, the Average Return Per User (ARPU) for a F2P game is often between $1 and $4, meaning a much larger playerbase is needed to get that percentage of spenders in to make anywhere near what the subscription system would make. Some good charts and data for f2p games can be found here for those that want to read a bit more on how the money works.

I figured I'd just convince you using your own provided link.

It took me a few seconds to find this:

Steve Heighway

2 votes by Serkan Toto and Alan Nguyen

The numbers for social gaming for featurephones in Japan are quite different - DeNA (mobage platform), who recently acquired ngmoco, have an estimated ARPPU of USD30+, and a conversion rate (paying users/all users) of 10%+. The ARPPU is heavily skewed by heavy users, who spend USD100s per month, such is the addiction of these social games.

http://www.dena.jp/en/ir/pdf/Agr...

The stats are also very different for online PC games, with ARPPU of USD50+ and conversion 15%.

(Estimates by Mitsubishi UFJ Morgan Stanley, Nov 2010)

Perhaps your statistics are rather old (2009 is old in this market...) November 2010 on an international level are much more accurate. You also have to think globally, not just in Western but also in Eastern business.

I'd like to bring to notice this sentence, which is VERY important in expressing how F2P is so successful and profitable, raking in millions with a low cost.

"The ARPPU is heavily skewed by heavy users, who spend USD100s per month..."

There are users who spend USD1000's per month as well, even if they are fewer than the ones who spend USD100's.

Idk how else to convince you, but to allow everyone their own opinion, which will be incorrect if they think the profts are not high for even a small (successful) mmorpg of only a handful of players.

Really, everyone is arguing business model, not MMORPG profits. Splitting profits among employees is less relevant in a small company than it is a mega-corp.

You just reiterated what I said (and you quoted) which is

1) the ARPPU can be rather high,

and

2) the number of paying users is between 10-15% of your playerbase.

I don't think you really get what you are reading there so I will explain it:

Even with some people paying 100s of dollars, the total average per payying user came to 30 dollars.

If 10% of your users are paying then your average revenue per use is only $3.00

This contradicts, not supports, your claim that a set number of F2P users generates more revenue than an equivalent number of P2P users.

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