You'll be surprised though, even with a lot of time sinks out MMOs still in general require a hefty time investment so i understand people that make these statements but what I don't understand is...Why not just switch to console gaming?
TY TY yes.
Exactly. That's why I no longer play MMOs. They are stupid and boring time sinks. They have always been like that..........
Long live the singleplayer/multiplayer games which are actually fun!
I was just wondering...why do people assume that if you are not playing MMOs, you must be playing console games. There are so many PC games and most of them are actually better on the PC than their console counterparts! I would rather play on my computer than my Xbox where everything looks like ****.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
In my opinion people in Everquest behaved badly too but since there were fewer people playing then the incidences that might happen to you might be less. However the overall percentage is the same. Then of course you also could yell zone wide so and so was kill stealing and then you can have a fight with them which the whole zone will read and ignore or participate. Oasis fights over crocs I used to see stuff like that all the time. In South Karana that chicken village it was ks heaven all over the place with people training on purpose.What is different in WoW is that there are 12 million people playing so yes the incidences go up but do the percentages.
I so agree with the OP! Why everyone is always in such a hurry is beyond me. No time to just look at beauriful landscapes, to read dialogues or quest texts, not even time to talk beyond hi and bye. It's so sad.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
We've all seen it, the phrase "I don't have enough time" used to justify why players demand game mechanics so prevalent in most modern MMORPG's.
...
Good thread here from you, Kyleran, not that I expected a bad one from you anyway.
And yes, the "I don't have enough time" argument gets a bit silly these days. In UO, EQ, DAoC, AC and the like people had the same time as people have now, I dare to say that the median of player age in the older game was even higher than it is now. The only thing that changed was that we played the game because we enjoyed the journey and less to achieve something. It wasn't that much in our mind to win the game. A play session was a good one when we had what we considered to be good "fun" and many people (not all!) didn't really care about the next level or the next piece of gear to add to their collection. Lenght of play session didn't matter that much.
Additionally, we played games with much more downtime anyway. Few people complained when somebody had to go away from the keyboard for a few minutes to look after the kids for example, no problem. We just waited or took on another mob in that time and let the afk member share in the xp and the loot, no big deal.
I started playing MMORPGs with DAOC beta and was over 40 years back then even. (Okay, yes, I'm an old bloke.) It's always so funny to read the many posts here on the forums where people say that they enjoyed the old games when they were young but they cannot enjoy them anymore because they have less time now. I'm always tempted to tell them that it's pure coincidence that they were young back then, plenty of people with family, jobs and kids played back then and had no problem with it.
It's the age old argument: a new type of player came into the genre. With that the developers changed their formula to accomodate the new type. I cannot blame them, it's a good business decision. Why many of the new players are so focused on achievement, endgame, competition or killcounts in a MMORPG however, I cannot say. I find it strange, it's alien to me. I'm a competitive guy in my job, perhaps I have achieved something in real life - the last thing I need is a game that asks me to be competitive or race to the endgame - especially when I have no interest in the endgame anyway.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Playin' different games different ways sure will take ya out of your comfort zone, won't it?
I think the root of all evil in gaming is publisher/developer/industry greed. Games are built around the business plan. And not about making a good fun game.
And for that reason I feel I have to hurry and get as much out of the game before it costs more. So, really, they make us feel that way. And it's no secret that it's planned out like that.
I think what happens is that people just like easy stuff. Nothing to do with having enough time, but with beeing lazy.
This is why challenging music is not popular but bland-dumb pop songs sell so much.
This is why action-packed films with close to no plot have such success while dense ones with interesting ideas don't.
This is why people order pizza instead of cooking their own stuff.
And you can keep the list going with books, hobbies, etc etc.
People are lazy and, in general, dumb. Devs know this, and make their games for this majority that wants their purplez now with their box of cheerios.
Some of us, tho, prefer challenge. But we are a shrinking minority, so we don't mean business. The "I haven't got enough time" thing is just an excuse. I wonder how many hours a week do the people who say this spend watching rubbish on TV.
All good things. I enjoy MMOs that have these features.
- Not enough time to level up a character?
I agree with you here. There's no need to get to the end level in a hurry. And keep with the game and you'll get there eventually.
- Rich, detailed crafting systems?
I enjoy a good crafting system. Top crafted gear should be doable soloable and be roughly equivalent to top endgame gear.
BTW, I've a 50+ year old player who's held a full time job, raised a family all during the time I've played MMORPG's. I never was one of those folks who could claim that I had more time in my younger days and now don't have the time to play them anymore. Few people have had less time than I to enjoy MMORPG's really, so that arguement carries no real weight for me.
Yeah, I know, I'm a dinosaur and need to learn that the MMORPG world has moved on without me but still I hope in time players in the 2nd generation of MMORPG's will one day reconsider and take the time to really enjoy these virtual worlds and not just play them like a quick-hit "game"
I'm almost 50 and have lots of free time as I'm semi-retired. Personally, I find forced socialization a silly waste of time. I'm not in preschool, I know how to make friends. I do not play an MMO for that purpose.
Playin' different games different ways sure will take ya out of your comfort zone, won't it?
I think the root of all evil in gaming is publisher/developer/industry greed. Games are built around the business plan. And not about making a good fun game.
And for that reason I feel I have to hurry and get as much out of the game before it costs more. So, really, they make us feel that way. And it's no secret that it's planned out like that.
You know why MMOs are built around a business plan? Because they have a 50 million dollar price tag. That kind of money makes or breaks a studio... an MMO flop means the company is dead and everybody loses their jobs. So yes, MMOs obviously and rationally are built around a business model.
You know why modern MMOs cost 50 million dollars to make (while UO problably clocked in at a couple million tops). Because players demand 50 times the features in their MMO as they did in 1997.
Players are the root of all evil in modern MMOs.
If players said (and meant): "Give me an open world, level-less, class-less hardcore PvP game with full loot drop. I care about four things: Balance, server stability, building a castle, and raiding some other guy's castle" someone would make it.
Problem is players are spoiled... they want their "cool features" but it's just assumed they'll get hundreds of hours of quests, scripted content, epic looking zones, voice acting, cut-scenes, and all the bells and whistles. But these things aren't free. These things are the 50 million dollars.
The problem is that most of an MMO budget goes to what players consider "basic stuff" because WoW did it. This leaves very little room in the budget to make the innovative features. I think players have this idea that developers go into work and they do what they want, and then a game comes out and it flops, and developers shrug and go back to work. No, when a game flops you're out of work. In fact, 50 million is such a large sum of money that you better believe that average "Joe Designer" who is sitting there cranking out swords for the noob zone doesn't have a say in any of the real decisions. In order to even get 50 million dollars you have to have a pretty detailed proposal and a pretty slick pitch to marketing savvy investors who quite frankly aren't particularly thrilled to part with their money for a 5 year development cycle.
If you had 50 million dollars and invested it in an MMO, how big a risk would you take? Would you be out there making Rift, or out there making Darkfall 2?
On the other hand, if we're talking about an MMO with a 2-3 million dollar budget or less, any mid-size company should be able to eat that if the game is a flop. Wouldn't be fun, but the entire company wouldn't be out of work. So studios can be more experimental. If players want something different, it's much more likely to get done in a smaller MMO where the entire future of the studio doesn't hinge on the outcome of the project. But then players have to give up 100s of hours of quest content, scripted dungeons, voice overs, cut scenes, and DX10 grass. Is that a fair trade? I think so, but apparently most MMO gamers don't.
How come every thread like this devolves into a bunch of cranky old people waving sticks and telling kids to get off their lawns?
I love the whole 'If you don't want to have hideously wasteful time sinks, stop playing MMOs!' argument.
I'm pretty sure every business savvy company that cut out those time sinks to attract more customers pretty much wish you would be quiet and stop chasing away their real customers.
Game designers realized they could make more money by not catering to a really tiny minority of players. People who want to get straight into a game weren't invented in the last decade, they've always been around, they just started playing MMOs when the games were designed for them.
... and let's be honest. They're not the 'new' people, it's MMORPG fans who are the new people.
Games with immediate gratification have been around forever. Where's the time sink in chess? They invented chess clocks to speed people up. It's considered rude to take too long in a board game when it's your turn.
Poker doesn't have huge time sinks in between hands so the players can socialize. Neither did dice games.
When was the last time you saw a sport with a 'sit around for 30 minutes after the last play so the players can talk about what they just did' rule? (Okay, other than in say... golf. ... but you're all drinking then, so it's okay)
All this forced socialization through time sinks? That's a NEW thing. A relatively tiny, small blip on the radar of gaming as a whole. Impatient, right to the action, let's play now gaming is as old as the first guy who realized that you could hit people with rocks for fun. Mass socialization with thousands of other people through a game? The whole MMO flavor? That's COMPLETELY new. Any trend towards solo playing and quick action is a return to the days of yore.
You guys should repackage your whole spiel, and stop going with the 'I'm an MMO veteran', because it sounds silly. Explain that you are on the CUTTING EDGE of societal evolution, that you are trying to change the landscape of what is possible in gaming, and that the current trends in MMOs are a minor regression and backsliding, but that once technology and game design catches up again, it can go back to being new and progressive. That way you sound cool and like you're carving out a frontier, rather than like a crotchety old man lamenting their love of the horse and buggy.
Games with immediate gratification have been around forever. Where's the time sink in chess? They invented chess clocks to speed people up. It's considered rude to take too long in a board game when it's your turn.
Poker doesn't have huge time sinks in between hands so the players can socialize. Neither did dice games.
Well, while most of your analogy fails, I will try to make the best of the material at hand.
Let's take a look at chess clock, pretty good one actually, because in fact that's exactly how modern dungeon running feels to me, like its been speed up, with players racing some sort of artificial clock. When I played chess I enjoyed shooting the breeze with my friends, drinking rum and Cokes, and never once did we have a clock or worry about rushing to end the game.
Pokers a decent example, there's a world of difference playing a friendly game of poker with buddies, shooting the breeze and having fun (sort of like older MMO's) vs the serious and rushed pace of an organized poker match at a casino. Sure, the casino is far more organized and has lots more players but they sure don't beat a good game with friends who are taking their time through the content.
Hey, I did the best I could with what you gave me.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Games with immediate gratification have been around forever. Where's the time sink in chess? They invented chess clocks to speed people up. It's considered rude to take too long in a board game when it's your turn.
Heh, chess players play so fast because they have memorized the first 20 or so moves in their long term memory. The clock is there so one player can't annoy the other by delaying the game. Chess is not instant gratification, the speed comes from practice.
Most people would play chess without a clock, only tourneys use clocks. There are still tourneys without clocks too.
Well, while most of your analogy fails, I will try to make the best of the material at hand.
Let's take a look at chess clock, pretty good one actually, because in fact that's exactly how modern dungeon running feels to me, like its been speed up, with players racing some sort of artificial clock. When I played chess I enjoyed shooting the breeze with my friends, drinking rum and Cokes, and never once did we have a clock or worry about rushing to end the game.
Pokers a decent example, there's a world of difference playing a friendly game of poker with buddies, shooting the breeze and having fun (sort of like older MMO's) vs the serious and rushed pace of an organized poker match at a casino. Sure, the casino is far more organized and has lots more players but they sure don't beat a good game with friends who are taking their time through the content.
Hey, I did the best I could with what you gave me.
Well, when I played chess, it was at work. 15 minutes to complete a game, because you're on break. Gogogo. Stop lazing around! If you're at a chess tournament, once again, fast time.
Like you said, casinos have a ton of people, and they're also fast, professional, not a whole lot of talking about the weather and stuff. When you're with strangers, or when you're under time restrictions, games go faster. When you're taking a game SERIOUSLY, it goes faster, and there's less socializing.
MMOs are a big business now, and players are in it to play the game.
There is actually nothing stopping you from talking with people in an MMO. I do it all the time. It's weird to expect a lot of people playing a game for the sake of the game and not to socialize to have to be FORCED to socialize with you, though.
I'm really sleepy, so my point is probably coming out unclear, but my point is that MMOs are a totally new type of game. The whole idea of immersion, of being sunk into a kind of game where there are thousands of other players, and they are all potentially your friends and you're going to hang out with them is.... strange. It's totally unlike how the real world has worked, in general. I can't think of any other game where you play with so many people, and you're constantly expecting that other people might turn out to become your new best friend.
MMORPGs are completely a product of the ability of the internet to bring large amounts of people together in weird, previously unnatural ways, combined with the RPGs idea that 'immersion' was important to games. RPGs are less like games than previous games ( like the tabletop strategy games they are descended from), and MMORPGs are even less like games, in that the metagame you find around an RPG (Let's sit around and eat pizza and talk about what we did last week) has become an actual part of the game system... not something you do because you're getting ready to game, but it's actually BUILT into older MMORPGs, the down time.
Always before, when you socialize in games, it's because... well, you want to. You're playing poker, or chess, or whatever, and hey, you want to talk with the other person because they're your friend. Or maybe you just like talking with random people at pickup games, and you find a kindred soul.
MMORPGs are the only kind of game I can think of that at any point in time (Mostly older games, but newer ones as well, still) actually got built where people consider it a feature.
Note, I'm not saying that socializing or immersion is bad, I'm just saying that they're relatively new to games, and people playing and only socializing with their friends, or getting to choose how much socializing they do... or people playing with low immersion, that's all old game behavior.
I realize that there are games where people socialize, but it's not on such a grand scale as MMORPGs, and it doesn't have the bizarre pick-up game nature of one. Sure, people on a sports team may socialize, but they're brought together ahead of time, they're a relatively small group, and they stay together. MMORPGs is 'You just ran into this totally random guy, now make a group and socialize'. Seriously, nobody else sees how strange and new that is? (I have to reiterate I didn't say BAD and new, just... new. The internet does weird things to social structures.)
I think what happens is that people just like easy stuff. Nothing to do with having enough time, but with beeing lazy.
This is why challenging music is not popular but bland-dumb pop songs sell so much.
This is why action-packed films with close to no plot have such success while dense ones with interesting ideas don't.
This is why people order pizza instead of cooking their own stuff.
And you can keep the list going with books, hobbies, etc etc.
People are lazy and, in general, dumb. Devs know this, and make their games for this majority that wants their purplez now with their box of cheerios.
Some of us, tho, prefer challenge. But we are a shrinking minority, so we don't mean business. The "I haven't got enough time" thing is just an excuse. I wonder how many hours a week do the people who say this spend watching rubbish on TV.
Being 'lazy and dumb' is also why humanity has advanced so much through our history.
Not many wanted to walk for 6 hours to get somewhere -> lots of stuff like horse riding etc -> cars/airplanes/train
Not many liked to wait 6 months for a letter to come through -> Fax
Unless you yourself walk everywhere and do not use modern conveniences like washing machines, dish washer, vacuum cleaners; you too are 'lazy and dumb' using your logic.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Being 'lazy and dumb' is also why humanity has advanced so much through our history.
Not many wanted to walk for 6 hours to get somewhere -> lots of stuff like horse riding etc -> cars/airplanes/train
Not many liked to wait 6 months for a letter to come through -> Fax
Unless you yourself walk everywhere and do not use modern conveniences like washing machines, dish washer, vacuum cleaners; you too are 'lazy and dumb' using your logic.
I'm just a little confused by the idea that old-style MMORPGs are the exclusive realm of the brilliant motivated people.
Because when I think of people who make a real difference in the world with their intellectual prowess, I know the FIRST thing I think of is somebody looking for a group in Everquest.
I'm confused by this one, if your not looking to socialize in an MMO, why exactly are you playing an MMO then? Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do? Putin it on your resume on facebook so you feel like your more in crowd? Really, whats the point if you have no desire to socizlize in an MMORPG? Why bother wasting the time and money when you could be out at the pub as you say.
Because it's a massive, persistent, ever-changing, ever-growing game world that's got far, far, far more content than any single-player game ever could? You act like if people aren't playing it for the reasons you are, they're somehow wrong. News flash for you, the overwhelming majority of MMO players don't play to socialize.
Deal with it.
I would argue that the majority of MMO players actually want to socialize in the game. However, they prefer more focused. close-knti socializing with friends or guildies. Few people seem interested in the server-wide open channel type of socializing.
That may be the case, I virtually never see anyone ever randomly socializing with people they run into, it's only talk between guildmates, etc. Of course, you get some people who insist that random socialization is the only reason anyone should be playing an MMO, which is laughable. That's just not how MMOs work today, nor will they ever again.
If you have a strict definition of fun, you may be doing it wrong.
Even this is the wrong mindframe. What 1 person may find fun another may find tedious. What 1 person finds the best aspect of something the other can find it the worst. The problem is finding a middle ground and it will never be found as one side will always feel left out of their game of choice. There is no right or wrong to what people find fun or boring it's just personal preference and finding a game that suits those preferences. The problem is when both sides feel ENTITLED to what they want in an MMO that a lot of other people play and that goes for young players and older players.
That was my point. Maybe I should just state things plainly on the forums... I suppose in the time honored tradition of being right on a forum, you're aces. Mind you I wouldn't have went about it so clumsily, but aces, champ, aces.
I actually don't see that very often WSIMike. What I see more often is that the person that doesn't have time simply doesn't play the game, they play the games they do have time for, then the devs either see their populations drop, or decide to go after that market as well and the game is changed to accommodate them. Then everyone else gets on the forums and cries about how casuals are destroying the market, when the casuals just play the game they want to, and the industry itself decides to go after them.
Venge
Excellent post.
EQ is still running. The people that want to play it still can, however a comparatively low number of people do when it is put side by side with the games that have mechanics for all the 'lazy instant-gratification idiots.' There's really nothing to indicate that there are throngs of people on the sidelines just chomping at the bit for another EQ or even an old school DAoC for that matter when it comes to leveling and downtime.
We've seen a ton of replies of what an MMO should be and how people should play an MMO, and almost every one has had two things in common - they insult anyone that doesn't think they way they do, and the definition of 'MMO' that they base their contention on is a list of personal preferences for MMOs, wholly unreleated to what an MMO actually is.
"People who want to get straight into a game weren't invented in the last decade, they've always been around, they just started playing MMOs when the games were designed for them.
... and let's be honest. They're not the 'new' people, it's MMORPG fans who are the new people." -Meowhead
That quote makes a lot of sense. Actually, it's the complete truth, but that won't stop people from laughing at it as another silly raving from the lazy idiots who are obviously rationalizing why games aren't excrutiatingly painful to trudge through anymore. It's a lot easier to be aloof and contend that the rest of the world is nowhere near as smart as they are, so when greedy corporations wanted more money, they polluted the pristine waters of early EQ game design by removing all the features made for the intelligent gamer. The level of pretense is so insanely high, but they are all too busy patting each other on the back for being superior to realize that. If anyone thinks I'm exaggerating here, I really suggest they re-read this thread and look at the position taken by most of the OP's supporters.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I so agree with the OP! Why everyone is always in such a hurry is beyond me. No time to just look at beauriful landscapes, to read dialogues or quest texts, not even time to talk beyond hi and bye. It's so sad.
MMOs don't have any dialogues ^_^ and the quality of the quest texts is well below subpar and that's an understatement which is so very sad!
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
That was my point. Maybe I should just state things plainly on the forums... I suppose in the time honored tradition of being right on a forum, you're aces. Mind you I wouldn't have went about it so clumsily, but aces, champ, aces.
If it makes you feel any better, I understood you perfectly, or at least I believe I did.
When you were talking about a strict definition of fun, the unspoken subtext was 'that you inflict upon others fun', which is pretty much the point to this whole thread here.
You cannot force people to socialize in a game. They will only do it if they want to.
If they think down time in a game is to much, they won't play it.
The only way, IMO, to "force" someone to socialize in a game, would be to tie them to a chair in front of their computer, put a gun to their head, and tell them to chat with other players or they will be shot.
With one or two clicks, you're playing something else online, whether it's a single player game, a FPS where people don't "socialize" other than "pwned joo!", a F2P game, a D2D new MMO, they can go play a Facebook game, etc.
How could you possibly FORCE someone to stay in a game they didn't like and socialize?
you can however, allow people to socialize without opportunity costs.
If you have no downtime, there will always be a choice between chatting, and making XP.
if there is downtime, you can choose to chat without losing XP.
Both are design decisions, but no one is ever "Forced" to chat. You can decide during your downtime to go check your email. No one is gonna take away xp or anything if you dont' chat with other players.
EQ is still running. The people that want to play it still can, however a comparatively low number of people do when it is put side by side with the games that have mechanics for all the 'lazy instant-gratification idiots.' There's really nothing to indicate that there are throngs of people on the sidelines just chomping at the bit for another EQ or even an old school DAoC for that matter when it comes to leveling and downtime.
I think there's a caveat to this.
EQ, and to some extent DAoC, are a bit dated, especially EQ. And DAoC has been one of the most successful PvP games. I don't consider WoW a PvP game, so what do you compare DaoC to? Darkfall? WAR?
I don't think it's a valid comparision if you compare a dated game, like EQ to a newer game like WoW.
We could say the same thing about UO.
Well, no one must want a UO game, because everyone is playing WoW.
Well, maybe, but no one has made a current, up to date, EQ or UO.
I dont' think there's anything to indicate that people WON'T play an EQ or DAoC style game done well.
There really hasn't been one.
Vanguard was billed as one, but it had terrible flaws in design. The world design where different races were spread out everywhere, lacking the ability to train up in other areas split the population, the horrible "diplomacy" system, and others.
You could be 100% right, but I'm saying, there hasn't actually been a game like that to see for sure.
It's like, Model T's come in convertibles, and then they quit making convertibles.
You could say, well, obviously no one wants convertibles anymore, they dont' by Model T's do they?
Well, maybe they would buy a NEW convertible, but not necessarily a Model T convertible.
What are these NEW games with downtime that nobody is playing?
Comments
I haven't noticed any change in that from EQ. In old games some would help, some would run by. The exact same thing happens today.
In old games I've seen people come up and kill the mob I was fighting... after it killed me.
In old games I've had people come up, laugh at me and start dancing on my dead body.
I've seen this in new games, and I've seen the exact opposite in new and old games. I don't think the percentages are actually any different.
Venge
Exactly. That's why I no longer play MMOs. They are stupid and boring time sinks. They have always been like that..........
Long live the singleplayer/multiplayer games which are actually fun!
I was just wondering...why do people assume that if you are not playing MMOs, you must be playing console games. There are so many PC games and most of them are actually better on the PC than their console counterparts! I would rather play on my computer than my Xbox where everything looks like ****.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
In my opinion people in Everquest behaved badly too but since there were fewer people playing then the incidences that might happen to you might be less. However the overall percentage is the same. Then of course you also could yell zone wide so and so was kill stealing and then you can have a fight with them which the whole zone will read and ignore or participate. Oasis fights over crocs
I used to see stuff like that all the time. In South Karana that chicken village it was ks heaven all over the place with people training on purpose.What is different in WoW is that there are 12 million people playing so yes the incidences go up but do the percentages.
I so agree with the OP! Why everyone is always in such a hurry is beyond me. No time to just look at beauriful landscapes, to read dialogues or quest texts, not even time to talk beyond hi and bye. It's so sad.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Good thread here from you, Kyleran, not that I expected a bad one from you anyway.
And yes, the "I don't have enough time" argument gets a bit silly these days. In UO, EQ, DAoC, AC and the like people had the same time as people have now, I dare to say that the median of player age in the older game was even higher than it is now. The only thing that changed was that we played the game because we enjoyed the journey and less to achieve something. It wasn't that much in our mind to win the game. A play session was a good one when we had what we considered to be good "fun" and many people (not all!) didn't really care about the next level or the next piece of gear to add to their collection. Lenght of play session didn't matter that much.
Additionally, we played games with much more downtime anyway. Few people complained when somebody had to go away from the keyboard for a few minutes to look after the kids for example, no problem. We just waited or took on another mob in that time and let the afk member share in the xp and the loot, no big deal.
I started playing MMORPGs with DAOC beta and was over 40 years back then even. (Okay, yes, I'm an old bloke.) It's always so funny to read the many posts here on the forums where people say that they enjoyed the old games when they were young but they cannot enjoy them anymore because they have less time now. I'm always tempted to tell them that it's pure coincidence that they were young back then, plenty of people with family, jobs and kids played back then and had no problem with it.
It's the age old argument: a new type of player came into the genre. With that the developers changed their formula to accomodate the new type. I cannot blame them, it's a good business decision. Why many of the new players are so focused on achievement, endgame, competition or killcounts in a MMORPG however, I cannot say. I find it strange, it's alien to me. I'm a competitive guy in my job, perhaps I have achieved something in real life - the last thing I need is a game that asks me to be competitive or race to the endgame - especially when I have no interest in the endgame anyway.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Playin' different games different ways sure will take ya out of your comfort zone, won't it?
I think the root of all evil in gaming is publisher/developer/industry greed. Games are built around the business plan. And not about making a good fun game.
And for that reason I feel I have to hurry and get as much out of the game before it costs more. So, really, they make us feel that way. And it's no secret that it's planned out like that.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
I think what happens is that people just like easy stuff. Nothing to do with having enough time, but with beeing lazy.
This is why challenging music is not popular but bland-dumb pop songs sell so much.
This is why action-packed films with close to no plot have such success while dense ones with interesting ideas don't.
This is why people order pizza instead of cooking their own stuff.
And you can keep the list going with books, hobbies, etc etc.
People are lazy and, in general, dumb. Devs know this, and make their games for this majority that wants their purplez now with their box of cheerios.
Some of us, tho, prefer challenge. But we are a shrinking minority, so we don't mean business. The "I haven't got enough time" thing is just an excuse. I wonder how many hours a week do the people who say this spend watching rubbish on TV.
I'm almost 50 and have lots of free time as I'm semi-retired. Personally, I find forced socialization a silly waste of time. I'm not in preschool, I know how to make friends. I do not play an MMO for that purpose.
You know why MMOs are built around a business plan? Because they have a 50 million dollar price tag. That kind of money makes or breaks a studio... an MMO flop means the company is dead and everybody loses their jobs. So yes, MMOs obviously and rationally are built around a business model.
You know why modern MMOs cost 50 million dollars to make (while UO problably clocked in at a couple million tops). Because players demand 50 times the features in their MMO as they did in 1997.
Players are the root of all evil in modern MMOs.
If players said (and meant): "Give me an open world, level-less, class-less hardcore PvP game with full loot drop. I care about four things: Balance, server stability, building a castle, and raiding some other guy's castle" someone would make it.
Problem is players are spoiled... they want their "cool features" but it's just assumed they'll get hundreds of hours of quests, scripted content, epic looking zones, voice acting, cut-scenes, and all the bells and whistles. But these things aren't free. These things are the 50 million dollars.
The problem is that most of an MMO budget goes to what players consider "basic stuff" because WoW did it. This leaves very little room in the budget to make the innovative features. I think players have this idea that developers go into work and they do what they want, and then a game comes out and it flops, and developers shrug and go back to work. No, when a game flops you're out of work. In fact, 50 million is such a large sum of money that you better believe that average "Joe Designer" who is sitting there cranking out swords for the noob zone doesn't have a say in any of the real decisions. In order to even get 50 million dollars you have to have a pretty detailed proposal and a pretty slick pitch to marketing savvy investors who quite frankly aren't particularly thrilled to part with their money for a 5 year development cycle.
If you had 50 million dollars and invested it in an MMO, how big a risk would you take? Would you be out there making Rift, or out there making Darkfall 2?
On the other hand, if we're talking about an MMO with a 2-3 million dollar budget or less, any mid-size company should be able to eat that if the game is a flop. Wouldn't be fun, but the entire company wouldn't be out of work. So studios can be more experimental. If players want something different, it's much more likely to get done in a smaller MMO where the entire future of the studio doesn't hinge on the outcome of the project. But then players have to give up 100s of hours of quest content, scripted dungeons, voice overs, cut scenes, and DX10 grass. Is that a fair trade? I think so, but apparently most MMO gamers don't.
How come every thread like this devolves into a bunch of cranky old people waving sticks and telling kids to get off their lawns?
I love the whole 'If you don't want to have hideously wasteful time sinks, stop playing MMOs!' argument.
I'm pretty sure every business savvy company that cut out those time sinks to attract more customers pretty much wish you would be quiet and stop chasing away their real customers.
Game designers realized they could make more money by not catering to a really tiny minority of players. People who want to get straight into a game weren't invented in the last decade, they've always been around, they just started playing MMOs when the games were designed for them.
... and let's be honest. They're not the 'new' people, it's MMORPG fans who are the new people.
Games with immediate gratification have been around forever. Where's the time sink in chess? They invented chess clocks to speed people up. It's considered rude to take too long in a board game when it's your turn.
Poker doesn't have huge time sinks in between hands so the players can socialize. Neither did dice games.
When was the last time you saw a sport with a 'sit around for 30 minutes after the last play so the players can talk about what they just did' rule? (Okay, other than in say... golf. ... but you're all drinking then, so it's okay)
All this forced socialization through time sinks? That's a NEW thing. A relatively tiny, small blip on the radar of gaming as a whole. Impatient, right to the action, let's play now gaming is as old as the first guy who realized that you could hit people with rocks for fun. Mass socialization with thousands of other people through a game? The whole MMO flavor? That's COMPLETELY new. Any trend towards solo playing and quick action is a return to the days of yore.
You guys should repackage your whole spiel, and stop going with the 'I'm an MMO veteran', because it sounds silly. Explain that you are on the CUTTING EDGE of societal evolution, that you are trying to change the landscape of what is possible in gaming, and that the current trends in MMOs are a minor regression and backsliding, but that once technology and game design catches up again, it can go back to being new and progressive. That way you sound cool and like you're carving out a frontier, rather than like a crotchety old man lamenting their love of the horse and buggy.
LOL Meowhead nice one.
Well, while most of your analogy fails, I will try to make the best of the material at hand.
Let's take a look at chess clock, pretty good one actually, because in fact that's exactly how modern dungeon running feels to me, like its been speed up, with players racing some sort of artificial clock. When I played chess I enjoyed shooting the breeze with my friends, drinking rum and Cokes, and never once did we have a clock or worry about rushing to end the game.
Pokers a decent example, there's a world of difference playing a friendly game of poker with buddies, shooting the breeze and having fun (sort of like older MMO's) vs the serious and rushed pace of an organized poker match at a casino. Sure, the casino is far more organized and has lots more players but they sure don't beat a good game with friends who are taking their time through the content.
Hey, I did the best I could with what you gave me.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Heh, chess players play so fast because they have memorized the first 20 or so moves in their long term memory. The clock is there so one player can't annoy the other by delaying the game. Chess is not instant gratification, the speed comes from practice.
Most people would play chess without a clock, only tourneys use clocks. There are still tourneys without clocks too.
Well, when I played chess, it was at work. 15 minutes to complete a game, because you're on break. Gogogo. Stop lazing around! If you're at a chess tournament, once again, fast time.
Like you said, casinos have a ton of people, and they're also fast, professional, not a whole lot of talking about the weather and stuff. When you're with strangers, or when you're under time restrictions, games go faster. When you're taking a game SERIOUSLY, it goes faster, and there's less socializing.
MMOs are a big business now, and players are in it to play the game.
There is actually nothing stopping you from talking with people in an MMO. I do it all the time. It's weird to expect a lot of people playing a game for the sake of the game and not to socialize to have to be FORCED to socialize with you, though.
I'm really sleepy, so my point is probably coming out unclear, but my point is that MMOs are a totally new type of game. The whole idea of immersion, of being sunk into a kind of game where there are thousands of other players, and they are all potentially your friends and you're going to hang out with them is.... strange. It's totally unlike how the real world has worked, in general. I can't think of any other game where you play with so many people, and you're constantly expecting that other people might turn out to become your new best friend.
MMORPGs are completely a product of the ability of the internet to bring large amounts of people together in weird, previously unnatural ways, combined with the RPGs idea that 'immersion' was important to games. RPGs are less like games than previous games ( like the tabletop strategy games they are descended from), and MMORPGs are even less like games, in that the metagame you find around an RPG (Let's sit around and eat pizza and talk about what we did last week) has become an actual part of the game system... not something you do because you're getting ready to game, but it's actually BUILT into older MMORPGs, the down time.
Always before, when you socialize in games, it's because... well, you want to. You're playing poker, or chess, or whatever, and hey, you want to talk with the other person because they're your friend. Or maybe you just like talking with random people at pickup games, and you find a kindred soul.
MMORPGs are the only kind of game I can think of that at any point in time (Mostly older games, but newer ones as well, still) actually got built where people consider it a feature.
Note, I'm not saying that socializing or immersion is bad, I'm just saying that they're relatively new to games, and people playing and only socializing with their friends, or getting to choose how much socializing they do... or people playing with low immersion, that's all old game behavior.
I realize that there are games where people socialize, but it's not on such a grand scale as MMORPGs, and it doesn't have the bizarre pick-up game nature of one. Sure, people on a sports team may socialize, but they're brought together ahead of time, they're a relatively small group, and they stay together. MMORPGs is 'You just ran into this totally random guy, now make a group and socialize'. Seriously, nobody else sees how strange and new that is? (I have to reiterate I didn't say BAD and new, just... new. The internet does weird things to social structures.)
Being 'lazy and dumb' is also why humanity has advanced so much through our history.
Not many wanted to walk for 6 hours to get somewhere -> lots of stuff like horse riding etc -> cars/airplanes/train
Not many liked to wait 6 months for a letter to come through -> Fax
Unless you yourself walk everywhere and do not use modern conveniences like washing machines, dish washer, vacuum cleaners; you too are 'lazy and dumb' using your logic.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I'm just a little confused by the idea that old-style MMORPGs are the exclusive realm of the brilliant motivated people.
Because when I think of people who make a real difference in the world with their intellectual prowess, I know the FIRST thing I think of is somebody looking for a group in Everquest.
That may be the case, I virtually never see anyone ever randomly socializing with people they run into, it's only talk between guildmates, etc. Of course, you get some people who insist that random socialization is the only reason anyone should be playing an MMO, which is laughable. That's just not how MMOs work today, nor will they ever again.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
That was my point. Maybe I should just state things plainly on the forums... I suppose in the time honored tradition of being right on a forum, you're aces. Mind you I wouldn't have went about it so clumsily, but aces, champ, aces.
people who have different tastes, opinions and priorities in life are the root of all evil. because they want different things than you.
gotcha.
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Corpus Callosum
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Excellent post.
EQ is still running. The people that want to play it still can, however a comparatively low number of people do when it is put side by side with the games that have mechanics for all the 'lazy instant-gratification idiots.' There's really nothing to indicate that there are throngs of people on the sidelines just chomping at the bit for another EQ or even an old school DAoC for that matter when it comes to leveling and downtime.
We've seen a ton of replies of what an MMO should be and how people should play an MMO, and almost every one has had two things in common - they insult anyone that doesn't think they way they do, and the definition of 'MMO' that they base their contention on is a list of personal preferences for MMOs, wholly unreleated to what an MMO actually is.
"People who want to get straight into a game weren't invented in the last decade, they've always been around, they just started playing MMOs when the games were designed for them.
... and let's be honest. They're not the 'new' people, it's MMORPG fans who are the new people." -Meowhead
That quote makes a lot of sense. Actually, it's the complete truth, but that won't stop people from laughing at it as another silly raving from the lazy idiots who are obviously rationalizing why games aren't excrutiatingly painful to trudge through anymore. It's a lot easier to be aloof and contend that the rest of the world is nowhere near as smart as they are, so when greedy corporations wanted more money, they polluted the pristine waters of early EQ game design by removing all the features made for the intelligent gamer. The level of pretense is so insanely high, but they are all too busy patting each other on the back for being superior to realize that. If anyone thinks I'm exaggerating here, I really suggest they re-read this thread and look at the position taken by most of the OP's supporters.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MMOs don't have any dialogues ^_^ and the quality of the quest texts is well below subpar and that's an understatement which is so very sad!
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
If it makes you feel any better, I understood you perfectly, or at least I believe I did.
When you were talking about a strict definition of fun, the unspoken subtext was 'that you inflict upon others fun', which is pretty much the point to this whole thread here.
Am I right, or am I missing the point too?
You cannot force people to socialize in a game. They will only do it if they want to.
If they think down time in a game is to much, they won't play it.
The only way, IMO, to "force" someone to socialize in a game, would be to tie them to a chair in front of their computer, put a gun to their head, and tell them to chat with other players or they will be shot.
With one or two clicks, you're playing something else online, whether it's a single player game, a FPS where people don't "socialize" other than "pwned joo!", a F2P game, a D2D new MMO, they can go play a Facebook game, etc.
How could you possibly FORCE someone to stay in a game they didn't like and socialize?
you can however, allow people to socialize without opportunity costs.
If you have no downtime, there will always be a choice between chatting, and making XP.
if there is downtime, you can choose to chat without losing XP.
Both are design decisions, but no one is ever "Forced" to chat. You can decide during your downtime to go check your email. No one is gonna take away xp or anything if you dont' chat with other players.
There has never been an MMORPG that forces you to talk to anyone.
If such a game exists, I don't know of it.
Like, you can't level up, unless you go talk to three other players.
Or, you can't do this quest, unless you chat for 3 minutes.
Never heard of such a game.
There are games with no downtime, which means you have to choose between chatting and making xp.
You can stop to chat.
But you are amking a conscious decision to give up XP for that chat.
There are also games where you can chat, and not give up any XP for deciding to chat.
Some people like one type of game, some people like the other.
What's wrong with that?
If you don't mind deciding to give up XP to chat, you will want a game with no downtime.
If you like the ability to chat without giving up XP, you will like a game with some downtime.
I think there's a caveat to this.
EQ, and to some extent DAoC, are a bit dated, especially EQ. And DAoC has been one of the most successful PvP games. I don't consider WoW a PvP game, so what do you compare DaoC to? Darkfall? WAR?
I don't think it's a valid comparision if you compare a dated game, like EQ to a newer game like WoW.
We could say the same thing about UO.
Well, no one must want a UO game, because everyone is playing WoW.
Well, maybe, but no one has made a current, up to date, EQ or UO.
I dont' think there's anything to indicate that people WON'T play an EQ or DAoC style game done well.
There really hasn't been one.
Vanguard was billed as one, but it had terrible flaws in design. The world design where different races were spread out everywhere, lacking the ability to train up in other areas split the population, the horrible "diplomacy" system, and others.
You could be 100% right, but I'm saying, there hasn't actually been a game like that to see for sure.
It's like, Model T's come in convertibles, and then they quit making convertibles.
You could say, well, obviously no one wants convertibles anymore, they dont' by Model T's do they?
Well, maybe they would buy a NEW convertible, but not necessarily a Model T convertible.
What are these NEW games with downtime that nobody is playing?