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Are MO fans partially to blame?
HanoverZ
Member Posts: 1,239
Came across this today on the MO forums and it got me thinking, are the players also to blame?
If you want SV to improve and succeed just stay subbed and maybe convince some of your friends to join, make your constructive criticism and don't ragequit every f%^&ing 15 minutes !
That way i guaranty you they will eventually make things a lot better but the road may just be a little long.
If you don't, just keep in mind i don't see any serious alternative for this type of MMO with this potential and this type of willing Dev team for the following 5-10 years.
If you feel "overwhelmed" by some bugs just make a little pause for a couple of days and return and keep in mind its a game made to entertain you, not RL so if something isn't working for a few days its not the end of the world as long as you are sure that they are doing what is humanly possible.
__________________
Don't mess with the beast or your loot will be my feast!
THE SANCTITY OF THIS THREAD HAS BEEN FOULED
http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/58311-we-should-consider.html
Since MO's release some "fans" have been praising everything SV does, buying multiple copies, paying subs but not playing, offering to send donations,buying stock, particpated in the viral marketing. Hey...Its their choice and money, but are they sendind SV the right message? If you defend and support this level of service, guess what... Thats what youre going to get! Would it be better for the game in the long run if the players made a stand? Something has to change, it's been 7+ months of the same crap.
If your dog poops on the rug and you pat him on the head and say "good boy" ....He's going to keep pooping on the rug.
I win!!! LOL@U
Comments
I would be amazed if they had enough subs to keep the game going. Even with people buying multiple subs, investing in the company, etc. I'm pretty amazed right now that they have people paying to play the game in its current state, so just because I find something unbelievable doesn't mean it can't happen.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This is an argument I've made before and I can see points for and against it. On the one hand, I don't think SV set out with intention of ripping off their customers, but they are certainly guilty of failing to manage expectations, with Henrik squarely at the centre of it with his promises of "MO 2" etc. Its extremely poor coming from someone with aspirations of being a professional game designer, but forgivable given his inexperience.
On the other hand, they've been charging people premium prices for their product and have consistently failed to deliver when the ethical thing to do would be to lower the cost to reflect MO's clear status as a product that is far from retail standard. They need to learn a hard lesson and throwing money at them is not going to encourage this.
What is the answer? Sad as it may sound, I think SV need to give up on this project for now. They have neither the technical expertise nor the business maturity to make it work. If they look to take on a less ambitious project, or perhaps spend some time working in the industry they will develop the skills they need. As it is, MO is just going to keep limping on, never really reaching the standard expected of a retail title.
MMO gamers are definetly to blame for this. If they had higher standards, I am certain SV would been lot better at communications and bug fixing. However, they see that they can get away with almost anything due to people being hungry for a decent sandbox (not that I count MO as one, but still).
Well, there's always the possibility they simply aren't capable of doing it faster/better with their current team, so people deciding not to sub to the game at all could mean an end to the whole project. Unless they are also getting funded by a cultural institution, which happens to some developers, at least in some of the northern countries, probably in Sweden, too.
what?!
are you frikent kidding me? are the fans to blame?!!
you mean those people that paid 50$ for a game that was released in a pre-beta stage with 1/3 of the content promised and that 1/3 working like absolute crap? those fans that have been paying 6 months of subscription fees for a game that could take a prize for the all time worst P2P game every released? those fans that somehow after all crap SV has been dishing out (promesing mountains and delivering termite piles) are still there hoping something good becomes of this game? those fans that had to endure SV deleting any negative/detrimental thread in their forums so potential new players wouldn't be scared away no matter how serious the issue discussed was? those fans that had to endure months and months of blatant cheeters exploiting 100s of glitches without any action from SV because they didnt want to risk loosing subscribers? those fans that had to actually create a decent patcher because the one SV made wouldn't work worth shit? the list goes and and on and on......
are those the fans you are trying to blame?
this thread is absolutely rediculous. you got absolutely no clue man of the crap MO players have had to put up with, WILE PAYING GOOD MONEY FOR IT, when dealing with SV and all it's botomless incompetence. if it wasn't for the fans that just put their heads down and continued to support SV in the face of all their colossal failings this game would have crashed withing the first month of release.
get a clue man.
I am not even going to read the original post, give me a break.
THE GAME IS BROKEN
I bought this game, because it looked cool, like a different darkfall, sandbox, etc..
I couldn't play it for the life of me, on 2 different computers. The game servers and my client were either off synch all the time, or the game client itself crashed over and over.
I thought it was just me, but I see that most of the US player have the same issue. Maybe all the players have the issue, but I only understand the english speaking ones.
The game is totally messed up, I don't blame anyone but the developer.
PLAY WURM ONLINE!! www.wurmonline.com
So you support throwing money at SV whom you classified as "bottomlessly imcompetent"? I dont get it...
Do you hosestly see MO improving without something changing?
I win!!! LOL@U
i can flush money down the toilet if i so choose, i work for it and it's mine to do as i wish. i personaly loved what the game could be (if there was a competent development team behind it) and that's why i support it and play it. when it works, it's extremely fun and innovative. most of the time it doesnt work. if there was any other game that was much like MO but worked way better i would definately go play that, but there isnt' (i'v tryied DF it's just not my cup of tea). this does not change the fact that SV should take full responsability for how their game preforms. there is only one place to put the blame for MO and that is SV. it's their product and it doesn work worth a damn even now 6 months after release. this has nothing to do with what the fans do with their money.
I believe that is the point. I believe that SV counted on some fans being willing to continue to subsidize the development of Mortal Online for an extended period of time after release. If SV was unable to count on that subsidization they would have either:
A) Made sure that their design goals could be met with their pre-launch budget
or
C) Realized that the project was beyond their ability to deliver
Instead they launched and have been delivering "termite piles" while promising "mountains" (to use your terminology). So yes.. while I 100% agree that people can spend their money on whatever they like, the fact that SV knew they would continue to subsidize development post launch with customer money is a reason that they launched in the state they did.
From day one of this fiasco I said that we, as consumers have to stop allowing companies to shovel half (or less) baked software on us. Instead of trying to improve upon the launches of their competitors they seem to continually lower the bar of what they release. The one developer which seems to be breaking that mold is TRION with RIFT. Now, after extensive testing I doubt I will be buying the game as it (at this point) seems to be too PvE focused, but I give them kudos for the amount of polish and craftmanship shown in their beta tests so far. Hopefully they will raise the bar for the next company.
So yeah.. it's the COMPANY'S fault.. but IMHO, we the customers enable their behavior.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Exactly. The point of the thread was if the fans were more harsh, SV could probably pull themselves together and try be better. But seeing how loyal and forgetful their fans are,t hey can afford slipups. Imho.
No, he's wrong. The fans are not to blame for SV's incompetence which you vividly describe; which was been posted true here time and again in absurd amounts of leaks, internal documents, guidelines, memos, etc to the point where if only 1% of it was true; most "sane" people would run back to play UO on freeshard servers.
You identify the only "problem" with fans, you are paying good money for crap. In short, you're being idiots. But that's not really a problem(hence the quotemarks) because at the end of the day its your money and your business what you chose to do with it.
Is it going to actually help SV become better or change their ways? No, it won't. People - companies even more so - don't change overnight if at all, its still the same old Henrik doing the same old car-sale pitch, same old Maerlyn verifying every Dev post before allowing it to be posted, same old story of small team with limited resources.
I congratulate you on your altruism in supporting SV, the world needs more idealists but if you're paying for crap... Do you really think you're going to get anything BUT crap?
There is a difference between knowing own limits and claiming to know own lmits while openly saying things in style "we can do everything" with no backup. And this is what SV atleast was doing while I was still there. Add to this facepalming players that were making feedback on trade tools for instance as SV wanted to the end stay so "hardcore" and this is what you get. It has nothing to do with money or size of the team but everything with not being detached from reality (which is something that I can't say about SV).
quite frankly i feel mmo dev should not launch till they get a playable product .and fanboys make matters worse by encouraging this behaviour.
if anyone could be bothered to read my battle with roma victor where some fanboys hijacked the forumand painted paradise to an unplayable game then do so.End result was ppl went with this guys opinon and then came enmass to bash the game and i think the game is even dead now.
Are WOW players responsible for a lack of innovation in MMO development?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4057754#4057754
Are the people who don't pay for MO responsible for bugs ? (If they paid for the game SV could hire more programmers to debug the patches)
The developers are wholly responsible for what they offer. The customers/fans are responsible for it's success (or lack thereof)
The assertion that people supporting a game with flaws ends up "lowering the bar" assumes that developers strive for some minimal level of achievement and do not aspire to be more successful.
When it's something so avoidable, why worry about blame? Seems petty and inane. If they were causing cancer in babies, maybe then we'd need this expose...
I will try and explain it again:
A developer needs to make money to continue in business. Development costs money. Developer needs to determine how much money it will cost to get a product into a state where people will pay for it. While a developer is 100% responsible for the content they produce, the consumers are responsible for determining where the "state where people will pay for it" lays. Thus the consumers of the product do in fact have influence over the state of the program at release and the rate of change afterwards. In essense the consumer determines where the BAR (quality) is that determines whether or not they will pay for the product. This has nothing to do with the aspiration of developers to be successful or not, it has everything to do with the minimum level of quality people will accept in a product they are purchasing.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Well, but you forget making games is a business. The purpose of any business is making $$$$. That means charging what the "market will bare" but also in minimizing production costs. So, even the most well intentioned developer is under pressure to get the product out the door at the minimum cost. Hence why so many games are released in the state that they are so the company can start recouping its production cost as soon as possible...
(Slap beat me to the post and explained it a heck of a lot better...
)
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
Sadly, I pulled my sub last month due to a bug that cost my clan days of hard work, such bugs are an ongoing dellima which constantlly is overt in the game. Perhaps if they lowered the price of subs until they get a game that is AAA level, subs may come back. Nevertheless, if you charge AAA sub price, you better have a AAA game to back it. MO type games are coming stronger in the future but, not producing only puts a bad view on suvh a realm.
You're trying to force the invisible hand, and imo your goal is mis-guided. Perhaps it's more important to reward game developers (and I mean that in the palovian sense, with our money being the dog treats) for creating fun games, not simply for releasing less buggy games.
It seems to be forgotten, but games are supposed to be fun; we're not talking about a skyscraper or car, this is a friggin' game and technical excellence takes a back seat to fun gameplay. Sure, I'd love a bug-free game, and when a fun game happens to be techincally smooth I enjoy it... but frankly, there's not a lot of fun games out there, and maybe I was born lucky (or stupid, as I'm sure you'll think) but I can get over bugginess if the game is enjoyable. Just like I can enjoy a song with a sub-par singer or a movie with poor lighting/acting.
Point is, MO is fun, all the other MMO's I've tried aren't. SV gets my money ($100-some and counting) until something better comes along. That's how the market should work, and more importantly, how it does work (on a general level).
TL;DR : it's a game. fun > well-written code.
Nothing you wrote in your reply contradicts what I said. You are talking about your reason for supporting the company. That is fine.. it re-enforces what i said. You are setting the bar of what you will accept from the company.
Edit to add: You seem to think you have to chose a fun game or a functional one. As a consumer I don't think we should have to make that choice. I want a "well-written" game that is also fun.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Long before this game went into closed beta I could tell it was going to be fail. I never understood why people actually went crazy for it in the first place. Then again, I dont understand the appeal of most mmos now days. After playing them for so long I'm starting to think 99.999% of them are just plain garbage.
I personally don't think the fans are to blame at all.
SV has been failing since long before the game ever launched, they have had time to deal with glaring issues and instead chose to ignore them. They still have a team of extremely inept individuals working on the game, even though they have had time to introduce new staff if need be, etc...
SV is entirely to blame for the subsequent failure of the game, imho.
The edit is the part I'm arguing with, the mentality that you can simply stubbornly complain quality into games. If you find a game that meets what you want, great. Hell, support that game by buying multiple copies. PM me a link so I can check it out. I haven't found it, and I've tried quite a few... I'm pretty sure I've forum-lurked them all (MMO's anyway... single-player games are a bit cleaner in general).
Point remains though, MO is worth the money (imo, like everything else both of us say). I'm glad I had fun playing it, instead of not having fun by boycotting the industry. I don't enjoy boycotting as much as some people do, I guess.
Mo may be flawed, but it is functional. It's not a choice between fun and "polish"/lack of bugs/smooth gameplay. It is a choice first of all about what you consider fun, then a choice of how what flaws you will tolerate. For the time being, MO offers something that some players feel they can't find elsewhere. (sandbox, open pvp with reasonable limits, fantasy setting, whatever) Apparently, you also saw that same appeal but were let down by the results(since you've spent so much time on this game).
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It's not a choice between fun and "polish"/lack of bugs/smooth gameplay. It is a choice first of all about what you consider fun, then a choice of how what flaws you will tolerate. For the time being, MO offers something that some players feel they can't find elsewhere. (sandbox, open pvp with reasonable limits, fantasy setting, whatever) Apparently, you also saw that same appeal but were let down by the results(since you've spent so much time on this game).
Many MO players would probably leave MO if they could find that in another game that had more "polish" If you know of such a game, feel free to suggest it. If we are looking to assign "blame" for MO surviving despite its flaws, perhaps it is the responsibility of the market for not offering something that has that appeal but with more "polish" IIRC, you are currently not playing any MMO, which implies that you agree that there is nothing with similar appeal, but better.
Faced with a market that doesn't offer the product you want, there are two choices: Don't participate in the market, or make the best of what is available. If everyone opts out, there is no demand for that style of game. No demand ---> no reason for developers to make such games.
Sorry for the late edit. I accidentally posted when i had to get up from the computer. Just for context everything below the line was edited in since it was part of the orginally intended post
Let's stay on topic here. You both responded to the edit blurb and ignored the jist of the post which was that it is the CUSTOMERS that determine where the bar is set regarding what they will pay for.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018