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Is this a buy your way to fame and glory game?
Shadanwolf
Member UncommonPosts: 2,392
in Alganon
I have been putting some time into the game to see what it's all about.One element in the game is called TRIBUTE.There are a LOT of items that can be bougnt with TRIBUTE...a lot.Is tribute only available if you buy it with real money ?
(this would be far less of an issue if this were a pve only game but its now a pve/faction conflict game with winners and loosers)
Comments
Well, uhm, yes, Tribute is the in-game currency. Please read this.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
You may want to consider another wrinkle in your pay to play program.A subscription option that has all the features of your current 30-50 program PLUS x ammout of tribute credited to an account every month the subscription is active.
Faction conflict will bring out competative people(like me).I don't like being nickle and dimed to death buying tribute.I won't play a game that doesn't offer "fair" competition.If a games worth it I'll pay a subscription fee and not have to think about paying for this and that item.(BTW..this is the last free advice.Future advice will cost you.Yes I have an account in the game)
In general, I really don't understand what your issue is with Tribute. It's an F2P game and that's the RMT currency.
That being said, I personally have some issues with how the Tribute market has been implemented. Specifically, my issues are:
F2p? - Alganon is marketed as a F2P, but you need to pay real money to unlock levels 31 - 50. I agree with many players and Derek Smart that if you've played the game up to level 30, you've obviously enjoyed it and should throw the developer some coin. I don't have any problems with that. My issue is more a matter of semantics and perception. If you say the "game" is free, then the game--including all levels, quests and content--should be free, IMO. Unfortunately, there's no standard for F2P game definitions, so it's up to each developer to create their own. I'd rather see the entire game be free and have the option to spend money on other things that are for the sake of aesthetics or convenience. This is more of a quibble, really, since I enjoy the game enough that I would pay to unlock those levels. That being said, I believe potential players will balk at even trying the game if they know they have to pay--even such a nominal amount--in order to unlock almost half the levels... erception's a bitch...
Pay-to-Win - I compared a level 30 tribute set of gear to the best in-game gear I'd found and equipped. The Tribute Gear gave a very clear advantage in HP, Defense and Attack power. That concerns me.
~Ripper
There is a standard.
Free to play only got coined for games that never had box releases or were pay to play software rights. The free contends with the software. All free to play games are free to download, free to make an account, and free to access.
Their shops are tagged on to make a profit. That's all it's ever meant.
That's what the term means.
Don't confuse it.
There needs to be a standard of what is actually "included" for free. Yes, I understand the basic definition, but so many games have implemented their version of "free" differently that there needs to be a standard. That being said, it's more of a general topic for the pub, not specifically this thread or game.
~Ripper
Exactly.
Which is why when people post stuff such as that which you replied to, I just do an eye roll and move along.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
No, there doesn't need to be a standard on how you monetize a game. Every company has a different method of monetising their game based on that game alone. So no two games (or companies) are ever going to be able to conform to some arbitrary "standard".
And with all F2P games, you know exactly what you're getting for "free". If you're not paying for it, then its free. Where is the confusion exactly?
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
Generally speaking, I agree with you and I agree with the basic tenets of King_Kumquat's post.. You and other developers and/or publishers are free to monetize your games however you see fit. It's not about defining what can be monetized. It's about defining how a game is marketed. The question many players ask is what one truly gets to play for free? As I said before, this isn't so much an argument about Alganon as it is with "F2P" games, in general.
Is it simply that one could download the client, create an account and access the world for free?. I wouldn't really say that defines a free to play "game". I would say that defines free software and world access. So, after the software has been downloaded and installed, after the account has been created and the player has logged into the game world, what does one get to play for free? It's different for every game. In some games, it's only X levels, in others it's certain zones, in others it's everything, but it's egregiously hard without cash shop items.
Yes, in all of them one can actually "play" for free, but the "game" itself may not be truly free. It's kind of like Scrabble boards and tiles being free, but players only being allowed to use 4 letter words or less and being unable to capitalize on the extra point squares unless they pay for them. Yes, it's free to play, forever, but what one is able to play and enjoy is greatly diminished. Therein lies the semantic difficulty many players have with games marketed as F2P and why I would like to see some sort of standard of "what one gets to play for free" as part of that marketing.
P2P is more obviously defined. In order to play at all, one has to buy something, whether it's the client (Guild Wars), a subscription or both.
Don't get me wrong. I like Alganon and I think it's worth paying for. I'm also not personally bothered by the free player level cap. Lastly, I'm not one of those "I deserve to play everything for free" players. I simply think that there's a large number of potential players that will take one look at the cap and immediately dismiss the game. As I've posted here, and elsewhere, my personal vision of of what defines a game as truly F2P are:
Client - the cilent needs to be free
Game - players should be able to access all levels, zones and quests for free. In other words, "content".
No pay-to-win sales - in a competitive game, free players should be able to compete evenly with paying players. If items are sold that would give a competitive advantage, then there should be comparable in-game items accessible through time investment (questing, crafting, etc..). Otherwise, the advantageous items should be disabled during competition.
Please note, the above definition doesn't standardize how a "F2P game" is monetized. It simply defines what's free in order to label a game as F2P. Ultimately, the standards are really intended to standardize how a game is marketed, not monetized. A developer wants to charge for zone access, levels and ability to use certain in-game "elite" gear and powers (as a general example, not specific to any one game)? Go for it, just don't call your game "free". It's free to download, free to access and offers limited free to play with the option to unlock additional content for a fee. So, "Limited F2P"? I can see breaking "F2P" out into two categories:
Completely F2P - meets the standards above
Limited F2P - meets some of the standards . One can play something for free, forever, but not necessarily the entire game
In the case of Alganon, a game I've enjoyed, I would consider it to be limited F2P. That label doesn't detract from my enjoyment, nor does it change the revenue model. It simply clarifies--at a high level--what should be reasonably expected by a consumer in terms of content vs. cost.
Nobody has to agree with me and I'm okay with that. I don't take offense to it. At the end of the day, it's not my game. It's yours and it's your decision how to monetize it and I respect that.
That being said, irrespective of the semantic argument about what constitutes F2P, in general, I feel my concerns about possible pay-to-win gear --for Alganon specifically--are warranted. The pay-to-win situation really seems to be the crux of what the OP is asking. Will a tribute purchase decide the outcome of a PvP battle between two equal level characters, assuming classes are balanced? Absolutely? No. With high probability? I think so. Is there in-game gear, available at the same levels, comparable to the tribute gear? Is it simply a matter of time invested in finding, buying, crafting or earning the gear vs. simply paying for it? I don' t know. If so, I'm okay with it. if not, I take issue with it, as will many other gamers.
~Ripper
But companies cannot state Limited F2P. That has a negative conitivitiy.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
To be honest...
I was in the beta, it was fun, obviously a bit cloney, but new enough to be pretty entertaining. It ran well, seemed stable, I liked combat/questing and the graphics overall (Especially the "bad" side terrain/starter zone/npcs)
...what happened?
Well...
People perceived it as being nothing more than a WoW clone. Too most, it was a cheaper, more buggy version of WoW without all the classes or races. Which, in many ways was very true. Why would people pay to play a cheaper version of WoW at basically the same price?
Unfortunately, that perception still sticks today, and it is one of the primary reasons why the game will never really reach any significant numbers or playerbase. Furthermore, the tribute system is very much a huge advantage over players who choose not to use it. This is not helping either. =/
splat
Have they managed to set a record and have more than 10 people on at any one time yet? lol
From my point of view:
If you have to spend money to reach the max level, then it's just a trial.
If you don't have to spend any money to reach max level then it is F2P
If you have to buy items from a shop to be competitive in end game content then its P2W (Pay to Win)
That makes Alganon an extended trial. That's neither good nor bad.
Exactly. The client is free, one can connect for free and can play for free. Is the entire game free? No. Yes, you can play part of the game for free, but not the whole game. As such, the game isn't free. Yes, Alganon is a hell of a bargain. More so that many other "F2P" games. But it's not entirely free. Therein lies the confusion. What does "F2P" mean? Does it simply mean you can play something for free or does it mean the entire game can be played for free. In the case of a game like Wizard101, you can play free forever, but you're so severely limited I can't understand how it could possibly be classified as F2P. It wasn't even originally marketed as one - it was marketed as having an unlimited free trial.. In the case of Alganon, "most" of the game can be played for free and the rest for a nominal fee. It's more free, by far, than Wizard101, but it's still not totally free.
That's not a commentary on Alganon's revenue model, but merely how it's represented and categorized. The same could be said for many other F2P games. While I would personally change some aspects of Alganon's revenue model and have concerns over the pay-to-win factor, it ain't my game. I can express dissatisfaction or concerns, but it's not my place to tell them how to run their business. That's why I clarified my points about marketing vs. monetization in my wall o' text. I'm not trying to tell Mr. Smart how to run Alganon. I simply want to see standards that define how a game like Alganon can be marketed.
~Ripper
What do you mean your "PvP" gear. How is gear different for PvE vs. PvP? I stopped playing just before PvP was introduced, but at that time you could repair gear for in-game currency at various NPCs. Is that no longer the case?
If you truly could only repair gear via Tribute, then I would take exception to that, especially since gear damage is a natural consequence of combat, even PvE, in the game. It would be good to know for sure.
~Ripper
/*Edit*/
just checked the Tribute Market. I didn't realize PVP Gear was added to the market. If so, it makes sense that you could only maintain real money gear with real money. I still don't know if that's truly the case, so it would be nice to get clarification.
That being said, the idea that one can purchase PvP gear that auto-scales to your level is bothersome. I just compared the Ranger Gear in the Tribute Market (http://www.myalganon.com/tribute/index/items#PvPGear), which is available to use at Level 20 , to the gear I have equipped on my Level 30 character. Holy Schnikes! The Tribute gear is substantially better stat-wise. Not to mention the accessories, which are available at level 10, are better than what I have at level 30 (the cloak, in particular). If I were to go up against a same level character who had all of the PvP gear, he would have a very significant statistical advantage in HP and Attack power. Such a difference that it really does seem like Alganon's PVP is pay-to-win.
I've been tooting the pay-to-win horn, based on on that analaysis spreadsheet, since before PvP was introduced and I've never seen any official feedback on it. Now, it appears that the Tribute market has only introduced even more pay-to-win items with the inclusion of PvP. That's very disconcerting...
I don't know if those comparison claims are even true, but I will investigate further because if that's how it is, then I don't like it. And if I don't like it, then something will most definitely be done to sort that out.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
Thank you very much for looking into it, Derek. My level 30 Ranger's name is Zaxxon and all gear I have on the spreadsheet I linked is what I had equipped when I last played the game. His profile and equipped gear can be found here.
My gear comparison was taken directly from the Tribute Market page for the Ranger Full Gear Set - Level 30 and my subsequent comparisons were against the Tribute Market PvP gear.
In my case, all of my gear was the best I could find, be rewarded, craft or buy through the auction house. It's possible I might have been able to upgrade a piece or two through crafting (I honestly can't remember which pieces, nor if they would have made any significant difference) had I not had to rely on pieces from other crafter that I couldn't obtain.
Also, in my entire time playing, I never had the opportunity to run any instances due to there not being enough players online, especially in my level range. As such, I have no idea what rewards may have been offered, if any.
If Alganon was solely a PvE game I truly wouldn't care if the Tribute gear were better. Since PvP is a major component now, it's a concern. I don't mind a time vs. $ revenue model (I also don't mind paying, btw), so if you find that one could obtain comparable gear in-game--for the same level player--that would be fantastic. Unfortunately, I was unable to do so through my normal playing. Please note, the Tribute Market also offers the opportunity to purchase Epic gear.
~Ripper
Those are valid concerns and I fully understand. I've asked one of the guys to get in touch with you and hopefully it is something that was either overlooked or works as intended - in which case would need to be better explained.
Also, as to your previous. I got this response back
"That is true, but he's kind of overlooking that fact that the level 30 tribute gear set is meant to last someone until 40 (when the next gear set is available via tribute) so it will seem "OP" compared to gear that you got leveling up if you compare the stats for both RIGHT at 30, but as that character that was leveling up gets more towards level 40 the stats "should" line up a little bit more."
Also
"We need to do a better job of explaining that in the TMS. That gear scales from level 10-50, but it's the Level 50 attributes shown on the page. So the guy sees it has a requirement of level 10 with level 50 attributes and says O.O"
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
Your comparison between the Level 30 Tribute Gear Set and the gear you gain on the way to level 30 via questing, crafting, and drops will show a discrepency in stats in favor of the tribute gear set because that gear set was designed for player level 30-39. The stats are going to be more than someone without the set that just reached 30 because at the time we didn't have the functionality of gear that scaled with a players level, so we had to compensate for that by giving enough stats to make it a viable option until the player reached the next tier of tribute gear (40 in this case). As you level into the higher 30's your gear stats will become closer to that of the purchased gear set.
Comparing your gear at level 30 to the PVP gear as it's shown in the Tribute Market will show vastly larger discrepencies in stat distribution because the stats shown for the PVP gear are that of a level 50 player wearing it. That PVP gear DOES scale with level and the stats will be far less for a player that isn't level 50 yet. Also of note is the fact that a player can't just hit level 10 and purchase PVP gear. Each piece of PVP gear requires a certain Renown Level (This site explains the Renown System) in addition to a character level requirement before a player can equip it.
On a side note, but on the topic of "Pay to Win" that you speak of... We did PVP testing with characters with PVP gear against characters without PVP gear and it was a close fight each time. Neither player had a distinct advantage due to gear. The main advantage of PVP gear will be that it costs a set amount of tribute each month to maintain rather than that cost fluctuating depending on how often you partake in PVP.
PVE gear takes Battle Durability (separate from Adventure Durability, aka PVE Durability) which can only be repaired with tribute. Each PVP death while wearing PVE gear will cause your equipped PVE gear to take a hit in battle durability once you reach Renown level 2. No battle durability loss is incurred for players gear at Renown level 1. The amount of battle durability lost each death increases as your Renown level increases. This is because more PVP gear is available for use as you gain Renown Levels. PVP gear does NOT use battle durability and never needs to be repaired with tribute. PVP gear does have a set amount of tribute that needs to be paid every 30 days (maintenance) in order to continue using the gear though.
In short, if a player plans on participating in PVP all the time then it would be wise to invest in PVP gear to make sure that they have a set amount of tribute that they will be paying over a 30 day period. If a player doesn't plan on doing much PVP or doesn't care about fluctuating costs for repairing their Battle Durability, based on how often they do PVP, then they can just use PVE gear and repair that gears Battle Durability as they see fit.
If you have anymore questions or concerns, feel free to send me (Klazgon) a private message on the official Alganon Forums and I'll do my best to answer them.
Wait .. so it means that Quest Online will get your money either way. Either you have to pay real money to repair PvE gear, or buy PVP gear with real money. There is no way to earn some gear and keep playing through actions in game.
That makes Alganon a much worse alternative (even if you discount the really low in-game population and the bugs/wow-clone issues) compared to other F2P games like LOTRO or D&D Online .. cause you can really play long term without really paying.
Yes
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Nonsense.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.
Do all armor repairs require tribute rather than in game currency like gold? If that's the case that's a bit shocking to me.
No. It looks like you can still repair some gear for gold. I'll need to read the links Klazgon provided for a more clear understanding.
Frankly, I'm impressed Mr. Smart and Klazgon have taken the item to specifically address the concern on an unofficial board. I haven't yet had the time to read the links and I may still have some questions, but it's refreshing to see agreement that my concerns are valid and the devs are willing to discuss them.
~Ripper